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I do realize there will be people that forever look at a WS as just that a WS perhaps just in remission no matter where they are in their recovery. That is their opinion.
However for me, I want those people who meet me now to never look at me and see infidelity, because of my actions. For those who all ready know me, I want them to look at me and see how far I have came, and realize that people can recover, redeem and reclaim a life that doesn't have to be about their past mistakes.
KY
The queen, for her part, is the unifying force of the community; if she is removed from the hive, the workers very quickly sense her absence. After a few hours, or even less, they show unmistakable signs of queenlessness. - Man and Insects
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starfish, I think I said the FWS would start to feel remorse in the process of becoming a RWS and for me this then led to me sending letters of apology out. I met with OM's Wife to apologize face to face. I allowed her to be angry, and to ask questions, I gave her and her family space out of respect. I stopped shopping in their town, I stopped going to their church (even when I was asked on several occasions by the Preacher to come back) I made myself disappear, for NC purposes, and out of respect for her and her family. chere....don't know what to say....and since I'm not there....I have no way of knowing the truth. I will say that your account and the account from the other side....are quite different. Even your presence here on MB was a sore spot....and you know that. But all of that aside....my post wasn't directed at <you>...it was about being a recovered wayward spouse....the subject of the thread....and my opinion about that....not about you.
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starfish, I just read your new post, actually just part of it, we also, switched schools, not easy, but our children attended the same school.
I also stepped out of our circle of friends.
Last edited by kyellow4; 03/07/07 05:28 PM.
The queen, for her part, is the unifying force of the community; if she is removed from the hive, the workers very quickly sense her absence. After a few hours, or even less, they show unmistakable signs of queenlessness. - Man and Insects
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"However for me, I want those people who meet me now to never look at me and see infidelity, because of my actions. For those who all ready know me, I want them to look at me and see how far I have came, and realize that people can recover, redeem and reclaim a life that doesn't have to be about their past mistakes."
OK. Agree.
But didn't you think that way about yourself in the beginning? Many, if not most, WS say they did. They never thought they would commit adultery, hurt so many in such a terrible fashion, with no thoughts except for themselves.
Who would have believed it of them then?
So who will believe it of the RWW now?
So I have to tell you, if FWW (RWW?) were to leave after all, or die (God forbid), I would never, not ever, marry a woman who had an affair. Probably not even date one.
I have learned the hard way not to trust that way any more.
IMO, it's like asking a convicted, served their sentence, payed their debts, and remorseful embezzler to become a business partner with you. Who in their right mind...?
"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan
"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky
WS: They are who they are.
When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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star - I was directed here by the OM's wife, I was still behaving as a WS at the time, now I am not, that is what I am saying is a huge difference.
and I was explaining not in my defense but in the defense of the R, giving you examples of where people begin and where they are today.
The queen, for her part, is the unifying force of the community; if she is removed from the hive, the workers very quickly sense her absence. After a few hours, or even less, they show unmistakable signs of queenlessness. - Man and Insects
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Again ky....this wasn't about you. I'm glad you've done those things...for you! and all concerned! What I'm saying is that I wanted to add that to the definition of "recoverd" that you provided.
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Gosh, Appy while I totally agree with your line of thinking I would hate to think that some wonderful man would pass the opportunity for a R with me because of my distant past. That said, I WOULD look long and hard (and listen carefully) to any possible men in my future that have cheated.
Faith
me: FWW/BS 52 H: FWH/BS 49
DS 30
DD 21
DS 15
OCDS 8
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KY, I hear what you're saying...but you can't have someone look at you and think how far you've come, how much you've grown without first knowing where you started.
I guess I'm coming at it from a Christian POV...we will never be completely free of sin until Christ returns.
If a person wants to say, "Hey, she's a former wayward wife", that is fine, as long as they also know I have repented and been forgiven.
The adulteress in the Bible....Jesus told her to go and sin no more...I bet a dollar that she obeyed, at least as far as that particular sin is concerned. But when we read about her, we read about the adulteress. that is all we know about her. What good would it do to see an improved human being, without knowing what was improved? You can't measure it until you know what they once were. I hope I'm making sense.
But with that said, I agree with you, and with Faithful, that I wouldn't want to be "passed over" or rejected because of what I once was!
In this life, that may very well happen....but, I'm not really all that concerned about "this" life.
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now - that's not what I said, I said the new people to see me for who I am today, the old people to see how far I've come.
I'm fine with the label, as long as it fits. I don't need to erase the fact, I'm not just a FORMER, I'm a Recovered, that is what I'm saying.
Didn't you say, you think the label should be removed???
The queen, for her part, is the unifying force of the community; if she is removed from the hive, the workers very quickly sense her absence. After a few hours, or even less, they show unmistakable signs of queenlessness. - Man and Insects
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KY, you're right....I didn't read that right...sorry.
I did say I think the label should be removed....that is my ideal. I just am not sure that is possible or even reasonable to expect. I think often labels do more harm than good simply because that is all people tend to see, and then everything else about you is seen through that filter or lens and leads to inaccurate assumptions.
I also think it can be good to know about someone's past, because it can be an encouragement and a hope for someone struggling with the same thing.
I guess I'm just not really sure which is best.
The choice I suppose should be up to the person, to decide whether they want to be labeled or not, and what their label should be. Never ever should it be imposed upon you by someone else.
If you drop the label, then people are forced to take you at face value...that's really what I'm after.
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NOW, your posts make a lot of sense and I especially agree with the following part: I think often labels do more harm than good simply because that is all people tend to see, and then everything else about you is seen through that filter or lens and leads to inaccurate assumptions.
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Thanks Suzet_!
The other problem is that once you create the label, you have to develop a whole list of criteria to determine who fits where, but things just aren't that cut and dried in my experience.
For example, you MUST follow all of Harley's basic concepts in order to be considered recovered.
I definitely don't buy that.
Some people think that in order to be labeled "writer", you first have to have published umpteen books.
The next person thinks you first must write a certain number of hours or pages per day.
Another says if you write and are never published, then you are a writer.
Who is right? They all are...so labels are very subjective, aren't they? Both for the one who is labeled and the one who assigns the label.
But, what I think KY was saying was just for the purposes of this forum, it might help to differentiate between FWS and RWS. (is that right KY?)
I think it is a nice idea, I wish it would help, I just doubt that it would.
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[color:"red"] *Fish[/color] ky,
I'm not sure how I feel about using the "R" in front of WS unless the other spouses are also "recovered". Being a "recovered" wayward to me....requires more than just healing yourself and your marriage.....it's also about helping your victimes to heal. Afterall....the wayward is the one who got the rewards....the betrayed got nothing but pain. [color:"blue"] up to here, I understand ....[/color] When the wayward in your situation is as healed as you are....then, you've earned your "R". JMHO [color:"blue"] huh?[/color] back to this: it's also about helping your victimes to heal [color:"blue"] If OW tried to intervene in MY life saying it was: "to help you heal "... YEARS after the fact ... I'd consider that an intrusion and none of her damn business.... HER marriage is none of my business ... and mine is none of hers. If the BW in KY's situation is HURT reading that KY is doing well ... that is not KY's problem. What is the remedy ??? To ~not~ do well <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Pep [/color]
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Gosh, Appy while I totally agree with your line of thinking I would hate to think that some wonderful man would pass the opportunity for a R with me because of my distant past. That said, I WOULD look long and hard (and listen carefully) to any possible men in my future that have cheated. Ahh FF old chum, I don't think you have to worry. You would not want a R with someone like me anyway. Remember, this is just me. A great deal of introspection has gone into this position. I recognize who I am now. I would not want a R with someone who committed adultery for several reasons, not the least being I do not want to blight them with my distrust. I know I would be very happy never being in any R again. I know how to meet my own ENs, and I know I will prefer my freedom. It's not you. With prayers,
"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan
"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky
WS: They are who they are.
When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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“If the BW in KY's situation is HURT reading that KY is doing well ... that is not KY's problem. What is the remedy??? To ~not~ do well?”
Of course not. But it certainly demonstrates that KY consciously abetted severe and lasting harm to an innocent family that she has not, is not, perhaps can never, fix. In fact, I believe she should not try to fix. She can only get out of the way and do no more harm. But that is not atonement. That is simply staying out of the way, finally.
WS and OP are in a deep state of ethical and moral debt for the rest of their life. Perhaps for all eternity. WS, OP and all who looked the other way can call themselves Recovered if they want. To me it is more like I mentioned above: they are not Recovered. They can only be Recovering. Forever.
Personally, I am with you Pep. I do not want OM coming around to try repair anything. He can’t. He can not, not ever, make this up. He can only not make it worse now.
"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan
"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky
WS: They are who they are.
When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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I know it's not me, Appy. I guess seeing what I feared in writing from someone I care about cut me to the core. I was thinking about this on my way home yesterday and came to the conclusion that I would probably never marry again anyway. This whole experience has really turned me off to the idea and has opened my eyes to how messed up people are. Plus as you said, I would not want to burden another with my distrust.
Faith
me: FWW/BS 52 H: FWH/BS 49
DS 30
DD 21
DS 15
OCDS 8
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[quote}up to here, I understand .... Quote: When the wayward in your situation is as healed as you are....then, you've earned your "R". JMHO huh?[/quote] Pep, Honestly, I don't know why you find this confusing. I've stated in other places on this thread that I think "recovery" is about "more" than just one person....the WS. And that to claim "recovery" requires "more" than just healing oneself and one's marriage. It is about making restitution. back to this:
Quote:
it's also about helping your victims to heal
If OW tried to intervene in MY life saying it was: "to help you heal "... YEARS after the fact ... I'd consider that an intrusion and none of her damn business.... HER marriage is none of my business ... and mine is none of hers. Egg Zack Lee....and that's precisely what I'm talking about. Let me explain (though I already did) here: Okay....let me give you some really concrete examples that I've seen first hand....where a WS protected their own marriage but didn't respect or protect the other one. Often times, infidelity happens among friends, neighbors, church goers, scout troups....situations where there is not only contact with the infidelity partner....but with that partner's BS.
A WS, could do ALL of this:
Quote: KY said this is what defined a RWS:
The RWS, lives by Harley's principles, they protect their marriage, they are a new an improved version of themselves. They have worked out their character flaws. They are no longer vulnerable with their actions or with their thoughts of becoming a WS. You will not hear a foggy comment from them, and they truly understand where the A came from, they understand the OP was only a vessel in this very sad self destructive, self indulgent process.
Which is still ALL about the them (the WS)....but even if they do all of that....they can still do THIS:
Purposely enroll their children in the same activities as the other family....dancing, boyscouts, etc.
Make a point of going to same grocery store, church, social functions etc so that the BS is run off.
Badmouth the OP, or BS in to their mutual friends.
Or just even post here on MB about how "recovered" they are when the BS is still suffering and can read about how great the OTHER marriage is going.
Bottom line...you can recover your marriage, recover your own personal happiness....and still not be an authentic and compassionate human being. I look at recovery from a broader way. KY raised the issue and opened it up for discussion....and I think I contributed to the discussion. If the BW in KY's situation is HURT reading that KY is doing well ... that is not KY's problem. What is the remedy ??? To ~not~ do well But IF (hypothetically) the BW in KY's situation was HURT by reading that KY was doing well, while her marriage was still reeling and she was still suffering from depression and betrayal....YES, that would be HER problem. But the remedy would not be to do poorly....but to refrain from posting where the BS could be further harmed by it. THAT would be "recovery" <to me>....because it shows compassion beyond what is simply good for the OP's marriage. It shows a desire to completely stop all intrusion. I don't think it's that reasonable for the BS to have to listen to "how well" the other marriage is.....and that's NOT the same as wishing it WASN'T doing well. I think if an OP knows that the BS in their situation reads or posts here....real recovery <to me> would mean they didn't intrude here either.
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you said: When the wayward in your situation is as healed as you are....then, you've earned your "R". JMHO who is "the wayward" you talking about ?? I don't understand ... is "the wayward" this particular FWW (KY) or the OM ???? Pep,
Honestly, I don't know why you find this confusing. I can't figure out WHO you are talking about .... there are 2 waywards ... which one do you mean???? Pep
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.... trying for find your reference point for your entire premise ... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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I don't think it's that reasonable for the BS to have to listen to "how well" the other marriage is... KY's husband is the BS ... if KY'S husband were to read about "how well" the other marriage is doing ... it might be reasonable for him to think that is a good thing .... If OM's marriage is back on track that makes it much less likely for any re-kindling of the affair. Don't you think? I certainly hope OW in my past has a SUPER RECOVERED marriage .... for her sake ... but also as insurance for ME! Pep
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