Hi everybody,

Please, I need to know, what should I think of my F?WW refusing to discuss anything to do with recovery? We covered the gory details in December, and mutually agreed that there was no point in talking about details anymore, but now she goes into "this is all pointless" mode when I talk about anything to do with our recovery, such as this morning when I told her I need to know what she thinks she's learned, how she's changed, and why it will never happen again. The day after Valentine's Day she also had a major blowup when I asked her hypothetically what she would do if the OM broke NC and pursued her.

I keep thinking she'd get to a point where she just want to protect me and our M. Our recovery seems like it has gone so well except for her refusal to talk about anything. And it's not just refusal, the tone is threatening. Basically if I don't shut up, then she has no reason to "work" on the M, where "work" to her I guess means just staying married. I also guarantee that tonight she will say she has no interest in going to the MB weekend seminar anymore. The only question is whether or not she will change her mind in time.

Here is the email I sent her this morning:



Well, she didn't reply to the email, so I just called her. She launched into a tirade of "You just want me to be sorry, to have remorse, regret! I've already said those things and I'm not saying it again. I have nothing to talk about and I won't talk about it" Then she hung up.

Please, I am getting to the point where I think I have to consider Plan B. I love her so much and I want to stay married, but I feel like she is treating me like a doormat in this marriage and in the recovery. Shouldn't I be able to talk to my wife about anything? And certainly about something like this?

I have emailed MB and asked for an emergency appt with Jennifer Chalmers, but please, what do you think in the meantime? Is this just a matter of giving her more time? Her last KNOWN contact was in January, so she could very well still be deep in withdrawal. There is also a very real possibility that she is still in contact. The other thing to keep in mind is that the OM dumped her right before my DDay. F?WW would have happily left the M for him, so trying to bring her back into the M has been a long slow road, and I always think we are there but then her reactions prove that she still isn't there. Or are there other interpretations for her reactions, like she is just so ashamed or herself that she gets angry when I remind her of what she did?

Thanks for any help,

NS

If you have not already seen this. This may help your FWW understand your questioning.

Joseph's Letter

Is it possible that NC was broken?

JKT: Yes, I have seen Joseph's letter, but WW did tell me the details of the A when I asked back in December. As much as I respect Joseph's letter, I think that there does come a time when the BS should consider ending the questions, even if you discover months later that one of the puzzle pieces is still missing. The question I ask myself these days is "is knowing this answer really critical to the recovery of our marriage?" Usually, it is not. But being able to share with her what I am going through is essential to my recovery and our recovery. I would also like her to share what she is going through and what she has learned. I find it unbelievable that she would honestly take the stance that there is nothing more to talk about, unless she is still in contact.

FF: Yes, not only is it possible NC was broken, but when she behaves like this I assume that it has been. Since we are ostensibly in recovery, she has opened her email accounts to me, but that means nothing. She works 1 block from OM and could contact him from her office phone, through another secret email account, and just by meeting him on the street.

This is kind of why I'm posting. When my F?WW behaves this way, I assume she has broken NC. But is it possible that she is committed to NC but is so violently ashamed of what she has done that she gets angry when the subject is raised? As you can see in my email, I feel I am going out of my way to be understanding of her and make any conversations we have safe and nonjudgemental, yet, she still reacts this way.

NS

This part jumps out to me. Your wife was so "into" this OM that she would have walked away from your M. The OM was the one and the bad part was that she just happened to be M to you. Poor you - she said she was sorry. Isn't that enough? That is her thinking right now. She is hurt and misses OM and the A feelings. **These are all false feeling, but still her feeling right now***

These feelings will fade as time goes on and NC holds. She will come to learn what a fool she was and how could she have hurt you so bad. This comes with time and NC.


If there is still NC then right now just back off the R, A, M talk and spend the 15 or more hours a week with her. Show her your best with Plan A.

There is only so much a WS can do and give so early on. If she knew how bad she hurt you do you think she would just fall down crying and enter a deep depression? Sure she would. Her mind can only come to terms with this whole sitch slowly. That part sucks - the slowly thing.

I too wanted it to get better ASAP, but it took me 4 months after NC for my wife to come out of the fog and really work on our M with me.

M2L: Thank you so much for that. That's what I needed to hear. You give me hope and a reminder that I am in Plan A, not in recovery.

But how long should I give her for this fog to clear? The pattern that is happening right now is that a few weeks go by, and on the day-to-day level things seem good. We share affection with each other, we talk more, she smiles more, we had a great at-home date night, etc. Then I reach a point where I test the waters with R talk, thinking we are in recovery, and she lashes out like this.

I can go back to Plan A each time, but honestly, each time I realize she is not interested in active recovery, it makes me less interested in recovery myself. A big part of me starts to think "screw this, let her have OM, they deserve each other" if she can't see what I am offering her. Let her see how great OM is when she breaks her family apart and he realizes what he is signing up for (actually, he seems to have already realized what he would be signing up for which is why he dumped her).

So how do you know when to give up on Plan A? When do you go Plan B? And how do you know that you are in "recovery" and no longer in Plan A?

Thanks,

NS

she allows her inner serpent to bite you whenever she feels like it

if this is typical of her responses/reactions to finding out you are hurting inside .... pain caused by HER adultery ... why are you still married?

Pep

PS ... you do NOT plan A if her affair is over....

Thanks for responding Pep.

Why am I still married? Well, because I'm hoping that her acting like this is not permanent. Because I believe the MB program can help us build a mutually loving marriage and stable home for our children, whom I love more than my own life. In short, I'm relying on her ability to change. I definitely could not continue with her hurting me forever, which is why you see me asking about Plan B from time to time.

"you do NOT plan A if her affair is over". I've been covering my bases with Plan A as I don't fully trust that NC is established. Even when I was doing weekly counseling with Jennifer Chalmers it was unclear to me if I was in Plan A or recovery. She just focused on things like the EN questionnaire. I am scheduling another appt with her ASAP.

Pep, in your mind, what is the difference between Plan A and recovery? In both cases, I focus on meeting her ENs and watching my LBs right? In theory, it would be the same behavior on my part, but just more painful during Plan A because you know that your WS is still a WS.

NS

Clearly she does NOT have any remorse or regret and is mightily annoyed that you think she should.


She has SAID she is sorry and thinks that her mouthing the words should be good enough for you, even though she clearly does not feel sorry at all.

I don't really have any advice for you except to start spying. It sure sounds like she's got somebody on the side, whether it's the first OM or another one.

I'm sorry this is happening to you.
Mulan

Thank you Mulan. I've been pondering for weeks now how I can spy again. I sabotaged all my easy access to information early on after DDay when she figured out I had access to her personal email, cell phone logs, then to her work email. Now that she knows I have access to those, and has even "agreed" that they should be open to me anyway, they are of no use to me. Now I am at her mercy really, as I have no way to monitor her activity at work. I need someone on the inside, but I don't know anyone there.

Does anyone have any clever ideas for spying inside her work environment?

NS

Not at the job, but how about a voice activated recorder in her car?

Reread the Spying 101 thread...I just added that maybe you should check out OM's trash. Just drive by weekly and grab some of it where you may find copies of phone bills indicating continued contact or even notes/cards. Might be really hard to do late at night living with your wife though. Just an idea.

Summer 2005 I just dated my wife and avoided having the serious conversations until SHE initiated it. About 6 weeks after the final "closure contact" (and OM ended it in our situation as well)...we went on a road trip (without our DD) and listened to HNHN on CD in the car. It was the initial breakthrough but we still had a long way to go. Keep a journal and looking back you should see progress over time.

If you are drinkers (and especially if your dating relationship prior to marriage included partying) try to get out and tie one on a bit. Often discussion ensue as lips loosen. Sometimes the words are pretty or nice...but it's all progress through conflict to intimacy.

On that note...even her words to you above are "CONFLICT" which is better than some BS's in recovery get (i.e. - the silent treatment). Don't fear her storms. It's OK to argue. She's manipulating "sweeping it under the rug" with her anger and that don't work FOR EITHER OF YOU. Read love busters and learn how to meet such hostility with conflict of your own done in a non-love busting fashion. There is also good stuff on the main website about conflict resolution.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - even if the recorder in her car misses any and all contact between OM and WW you may at the very least catch a discussion bwtn your wife and her best friends about the subject. BTW, in the end a fully recovered repentent spouse FULLY understands snooping. It's use and purpose to protect and save the marriage are usually then APPRECIATED.

NS,
I saw some of this same thing. Unfortunately, it could be any number of things that you already mentioned: withdrawl, still in an A, remorse/guilt? One thing that isn't right is being treated in a rotten way and not understanding your questions. In my FWW's case, she was conflicted and fighting to remain in NC for six months until the fog finally seemed to break.
I notice alot of question marks on the dates in your signature line, which indicates you doubt you've gotten the full story. I'm with you, my FWW let the truth trickle out over time and two years later, I still doubt I got the full story. You sound strong though and have a positive outlook.
I say take any means necessary to resolve the discrepancies btwn someone who is supposed to love you but doesn't treat you that way by their actions, therefore spying is OK to either build her trustworthiness or confirm suspicions.
Unfortunately, recovery takes time and it's natural to have questions, just have to pick opportune times to ask them.

I'd recommend beware of drinking, I found it a double edged sword - I heard loving things and hurtful things. I do think that the adage "in vino vertitas" or "in wine there is truth", is generally true, so be careful.

V/r,
No way

NS,

Just thought I'd pop in to say I'm dealing with the same things with my F?WH.

Wow, what a night everybody.

It went down largely as expected. F?WW spiralled further and further out of control, giving me at least 3 straight hours of fog babble, along with some pushing/shoving and angry outbursts. I am very proud of how I have handled myself. I would not debate her on things that made no sense, and I did not allow myself to return the anger. I just stayed calm and consistent with my message that I want nothing more than to build a mutually fulfilling marriage with her. Her babble consisted mostly of the following:

"it's all hopeless, there's no point, I'll divorce you within 3 years when the kids are a little older, you betrayed me!, you conned me into marrying you and having children with you!, you are a chronic liar!, you are playing a game and only want to punish me, you just don't want me to be happy, you don't get me and you never will, it's pointless, i'm not doing counselling, i'm not going to the MB Weekend Seminar, I need a break, I need to do my own thing, I'm sleeping in the other room starting tomorrow night, I'm not doing the daily goal list with you anymore, I'm feeling false, if you can't make a leap of faith then it's pointless for me, if you think I'm just some philanderer then it's pointless for me, it's broken, it's broken, it's broken" She also said that she does not want me paying for counseling with Jennifer and it's her money too, and that if I talk to Jennifer she won't go to the MB Weekend Seminar. Keep in mind that the genesis of all of this was a fairly simple request on my part to have an opportunity to talk about how we are both doing in our recovery, and for her to tell me what she thinks she has learned and why it won't happen again.

Through it all I calmly told her it's not hopeless, it's just difficult. I told her I am offering her my love and committment, offering my ability to learn, understand and change the way our marriage has worked in the past, and that offering is still there for her to take. There is no begging or clinginess on my part anymore. My self-esteem was of course shattered after DDay. But I am fully confident now in what I have to offer her, and have completely internalized that I am of course the right choice for her. It makes it easier to deal with outbursts like the above, since it doesn't hurt my own sense of worth like it used to. Now it just makes me sad that she is hurting so much. She is clearly in deep distress and is struggling, and I just want to guide her to safety.

This morning she started off with anger again, and more "it's broken". I would say "it looks like it's going to be a beautiful sunny weekend". She would respond, "Yeah, too bad you've broken it for us". LOL We rode the bus in and slipped into a deep and meaningful about the horrible verbal and psychological abuse she and her siblings suffered at the hands of their parents, and her long struggle to convince herself that she isn't worthless as she was told so many times. She listed admiration as her #1 EN when she did the EN questionnaire, and between her family background on that, I am beginning to think that in addition to the normal WS "fog", she is also dealing with severe psychological conflict in taking ownership of some of her mistakes. Of course it's not uncommon for the WS to want to blame the BS for the A, but I think in the case of my F?WW it is all the more difficult as she has struggled her whole life to convince herself that she is a good, "worthy" person, and the horror of what she did in the A is too much for her to bear right now.

I see the beauty inside her, and I so badly want her to feel safe that I have nothing but love and happiness in our family to offer her. Only time will tell if she will be willing to receive that love.

In the meantime, consider me firmly in Plan A, not recovery. Which begs the question, since I should back off the relationship talk during Plan A, does that mean we should wait until she's further out of withdrawal before attending the MB Weekend Seminar?

Thanks everybody for listening, and please wish us luck.

NS

NS - Kudos to you for dealing with such a foggy WS. Based on her statement above, I'm suspicious she's still having contact w/ the OP; most certainly in withdrawl if not.
Her statement implies that someone else gets her. Seems like those OPs are always so special, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> until the fog lifts. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hang in there! Have you ever read Love Must Be Tough by Dobson? That might be helpful for you.

V/r,
No way

Amazing NS, you rock. I dont think I could have stayed that cool in the face of all that.

Thank you all very much for your praise and encouragement. Alas, I did not live up to your praise, but I think I will going forward. Here are some updates, and something I have learned and embraced in my heart that I hope will signal a true turning point in my marriage and our recovery.

My WW's rant, that I withstood, was Wednesday night. On Thursday, we had called a bit of a truce with each other and were even somewhat loving and affectionate again. Well, on Thursday night I cracked. Somehow in the late evening, we got on the R topic again. I had been feeling very depressed and had tried to keep my physical and emotional distance. Finally, I caved and took a chance and tried to snuggle up close to her on the couch. She rejected me, and things went downhill from there. She asked me later, "What can I do? What do you want from me?" I misinterpreted that as "How can I help you feel better right now?" Well, I was feeling pathetic and needy, and I just wanted her to act loving towards me, so I told her that's what she can do. I again got the cold sholder, as she apparently meant "what can I do to get you to take the leap of faith and trust me again?" and not "what can I do to help you through this deep emotional pain you are in at this very moment". Well, the depression combined with the rejection of what I believed was her offer of help was more than I could bear. I'm not proud of it, but I allowed myself to wallow in my depression. I researched suicide methods for the next hour or so. I said I'm not proud of it, and when I'm thinking with a clear head like I am now I realize how horrible that kind of thinking is, but at the time when you don't see any way out from your pain, it starts to make sense. Well, believe it or not, it gets lower. We went to bed, and again, I tried to put my arm around her, and she slapped it away. I was quickly losing my grip on my sanity. Again, I know it does me no good to be so clingy and desparate and dependent on her, but I wasn't thinking straight. This is really pathetic and I'm embarrassed, but when she again asked what she could do I asked her if she would just give me a hug. When she again refused, especially after I thought she was offering her help, I cracked. I just wanted the pain to go away, and what followed was the lowest point of my life. I got out of bed, and smashed my head into the wall with force. I saw a bright flash of light and I went down. I took about 10 minutes to figure out where I was, who I was, and that I was ok. She was horrified. When she saw that I was coming to, she asked if I was ok. I said yes, and she said she was going to go sleep with the girls in their room. I spent about an hour thinking about what I had done, and coming to my senses. I then asked her to come back to bed, and promised I wouldn't be insane anymore, and luckily, she did.

I'm deeply ashamed of everything I just related. But here's the good news. I feel that hitting rock bottom like that has helped me turn a corner. I realized that what I want is a happy, recovered marriage, but that it's entirely possible that I may not get it no matter what I do, so I need to let the desparate part go, have faith, and more importantly, have courage that I will be fine even if my marriage falls apart. I never want to pick myself up from the floor again. I have decided that if the worst happens, and my F?WW proves to be deceiving me still, that I will know with 100% certainty that I have done my best, and offered her the right path, and she chose the wrong path. I will hold my head up high, while feeling sorrow for my W and my children, and proceed with divorce. I will not allow my mental health to be at her mercy. If she is being genuine in her recovery efforts, then we will be rewarded with a great marriage. If she is not, it will ultimately be her loss.

On Saturday night, I watched Stranger Than Fiction. I don't want to spoil the ending for anybody, but that movie, in combination with No Way's suggestion to read Love Must Be Tough (I read the first few chapters on Friday), have confirmed it for me.

In order to get what I want, I have to be willing to lose it. It has been said many times and in different ways, but I have come to understand this deep within myself now. Think of all the "Boundary" discussion on these boards. The problem most people have with boundaries is enforcement. That's been my question all along too...how do "enforce" boundaries? I might anger my wife! Ha ha. But I get it now. In order to truly have boundaries, and defend your self-respect (as well as your mental health) YOU MUST BE WILLING TO WALK AWAY. Your boundaries and self-respect must be non-negotiable. Begging and appeasement will do no good. This means I am prepared to sell my house, disrupt the lives of my children, and proceed with divorce rather than be walked on or betrayed again. I love my wife dearly, and I want nothing more than for us to be a happy family for the end of our days. And it is my greatest hope that in my willingness to let that dream go, it will come back to me.

NS