No to be nosy (too late), but you know we'd like to hear how things are going for you guys. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well, honestly, I'm not happy about the way things are going. Some here would say our relationship has taken a more sensible turn, and on a rational level I cannot disagree. However, there is more involved here than rationality.

Basically, she has backed off into "just friends" mode. As much as she wanted the relationship to work, she was experiencing high levels of anxiety, and she realized that the physical attraction/chemistry just wasn't there in the way that she wanted/needed/expected it to be. (Of course, all this was foreshadowed by her struggles with the idea that I just wasn't her "type.") She realized that she could easily imagine us living together, but that in her mind she was thinking of it more in the nature of roommates than as lovers. We "fit" together comfortably, but...she couldn't force more. A few sparks do not a fire make, and if you blow too hard you may scatter the tinder instead of bringing out the flame.

I remain impressed by how she's been processing and handling our relationship; and objectively speaking, there are ways to see this in a positive light. Certainly it prevents us from rushing into anything.

On the other hand, for me it's an old, old theme: I'm the kind of guy who makes a good friend, but I am chemically inert. Pheromone free, perhaps. What's discouraging to me (beyond the fact that I am so <censored> tired of being in this kind of situation) is that if I can connect with someone on so many other levels - someone who wants the relationship to work - and still not generate any chemistry, then I cannot help but suspect that the problem lies within myself. And I have no clue what the problem is or what to do about it or even whether anything can be done about it.

It also makes me step back and look at my marriage in a different light. I know that my ex-wife loved me for a good long time, but without any other romantic relationships for comparison, is it possible that she never really felt any chemistry? Would she even have understood what was missing? Perhaps that was part of the problem...

The good news is that we remain friends. Her feelings may change down the road, without any pressure (internal or otherwise) to interfere with the process. Of course, I would be a fool to count on that, and I don't. My history has not equipped me to put much stock in hope or to let it be a significant factor in my decisions. Fortunately I am so busy these days that, regardless of how I feel, I am disinclined to re-invest in the dating world any time soon. So I guess we'll see what happens...

Oh, I'm so sorry, GDP.

{{{{{GDP}}}}}

She doesn't know what she's throwing away.

Do you think she expects too much too soon? I know for me the most reliable chemistry develops rather than begins instantly. I wouldn't be so quick to look to yourself for the reason things didn't go as hoped. As I remember your lady friend had some issues with being attracted to the "wrong" type of guy. Do I remember correctly?

Actually, nams, I think she has a pretty good idea of what she's "throwing away" and she isn't any happier about it than I am.

I think it is indeed possible that she expected too much too soon; and more importantly, I believe that she also suspects that this may be the case. By backing off into "friend mode" she is consciously giving our relationship the only chance it could have to develop something more. Continued effort to try to make it happen would only have made things worse, and we both understand that.

She knows that she can't trust her attraction alone, since she knows that the guys for whom she felt that kind of attraction were not appropriate long-term partners for her. However, that doesn't mean that the elements which she found attractive in them (if such a reduction is possible) were inherently destructive. Perhaps she just hasn't yet found the total package that would work for her.

Or perhaps I'll grow on her. I doubt that anyone can offer a reliable prediction at this point.

GDP,
Well all I can say is that I know how you feel. The last few times I felt some kind of sparks the saga just ended in the “You are such a nice guy but lets just be friends” Now I hope the ladies would rather say more direct things like, you can’t dress well (I do know that your belt and shoe color should much) or your stupid or just something more “tangible “that I can work on.
I had an interest in a lady and I got the “LJBF” not long after she told me that she has feelings for me that she has never felt before. Now after a few months she is calling, texting and next would be even smoke signals that she is ready to date me. It is difficult to go from being friends to something more after the start was more than just friends for me.
So I ask what is the point….should we wait with a big possibility that they “LJBFrienders” will be ready for a relationship or NOT after a few months?

Van

Sorry AGG, had the wrong initials.

Now that I've corrected my mistake will you tell us about you & your dating life please?

I think people will use LJBF line so that there's no mistaking where this might go. If you're told something that's easily fixed then the come back might be, I'll fix that. Then what?

I agree, a more specific approach is best. There's got to be something that makes things not work between two people that one can be specific about. Even if it's a personality trait, you can find a way to say that makes you incompatible. AGG found that out.

{{{{{GDP}}}}}

tee, hee landica. Naughty too.

GDP, I'd before careful about turning the relationship into a friendship. Back off, yes, but sparks won't fly ever if you are just friends. Maybe she needs time to miss you.

GG has a good a point. I'll add this: Don't let her be the one to dictate what happens between you. You'll appear as though you're simply waiting, not moving forward in your life, for her to give the go ahead. I'd be tempted to tell her she's free to take what ever time she needs. She can get back in touch with you when she's come to some conclusions & you can see where you are at that time. Go on some dates, even if it's just for distraction.

GDP, nams provided some clarification on what I meant. Also, I’m biased against women who say “Let’s just be friends.” I saw girls do this a lot in college. The effect of LJBF was that the one who wanted more was just strung along. Sometimes, these guys were in emotional agony as their “friend” dated others and asked them for dating advice. Meanwhile, the girls had the best of both worlds: No strings, no responsibility, able to go out with the exciting risky young men, and yet, their guy friends would be waiting there to pick up the pieces. So that’s what 18-22 year olds do. An age group no known for its wisdom or empathy.

When a more experience woman says those things, bells go off in my head. Doesn’t she know you want more? Doesn’t she know “just being friends” would be painful for you? I don’t like it. Of course, I don’t have to like it. It’s not my life. But, I don’t want you to hurt.

On a practical note, have you tried reading romance novels? I like the Jennifer Cruise ones because they’re funny. Romance novels seem like a good place to pick up hints on how to exude sexuality. (Oh, I should disclose that I’m an odd ball. Brad Pitt and George Clooney do nothing for me. The movie star I’d love to jump is Humphry Bogart. Ugly as sin, short, and dripping sex appeal. So, maybe I don’t know what I’m talking about.)

Gnome,

There may not be the big flames of desire right now, but the hotter the fire burns in the beginning the sooner it burns out. So with that perspective, this may be a very good thing. Time would be on your side in this case, even though you want things to go quickly and for you both to arrive at the station at the same time.

One of the hardest things for me to come to understand was just how unhealthy infatuation/chemistry really is. It has to do with the hurt/damaged parts of you recognizing a characteristic of the person/parent who had hurt you as a child or in the past. And likewise for the object of your desire. Two people come together sub-consciously trying to heal the hurt parts of themselves through a relationship with each other, but it doesn't work. And usually results in a very painful relationship that heals nothing.

So maybe she is not chemically smitten with you because you have no characteristics of the person who damaged her.

Maybe you are a very healthy guy. This would be a good thing.

After learning of the dynamic of infatuation (and it was very hard for my IC to get me to understand this) I set out to find the guy who I had NO infatuation with. I even told the guy I am engaged to now that when we met if there was any strong infatuation I was running the other way. Fortunately there wasn't for either of us.

What we found instead was compatability, affection, a strong admiration and liking for each other which has grown into an amazing relationship. I have no desire to ever be with anyone else, and every time we are together my physical desire for him grows.

I met him on Match, and we got engaged 9 months later. My love for him grows every day, and he says his does for me as well.

Don't dispair Gnome, she thinks what she feels is not what she should feel but that might change with time and she may come to understand that chemistry is the last thing she should be looking. The good kind of chemistry happens after the relationship grows.

And if not her, then someone else will be along.

I just read everyone elses posts, and I do agree on some levels about the friendship being a bad thing. But don't all great R's begin with friendship?

Or do you think that she would be so selfish and immature as to string him along. Intentionally? Or not.

If no marriage develops or romantic relationship, is friendship such a bad thing?

Maybe it is better not to have a friendship, if what one really wants is a marriage to that person. Maybe this would increase the chances? Is this what you are saying?

I just haven’t seen any instances where people who were dating decided to be friends because that was all one person wanted, yet later the romance rekindled and was permanent. I’ve seen relationships that bounce back and forth between friendship and romance, but they never seem to stay romantic.

As for friendships that develop into romances, I think those friendships had the potential for romance from the beginning.

I’m also not sure that chemistry and attraction always have to do with the part of you that was injured by a parent. What about people with great parents? Do they never feel chemistry and infatuation?

Most healthy people when looking for a mate are not looking for a high level of chemistry, and bouncing anyone who they don't feel that with.

Most healthy people are dating and marrying people who do not bring about a lot of anxiety for them in the beginning of a relationship. Chemistry brings about a high level of anxiety. Read Coughlins theads. They run from those relationships.

I am not talking about attraction, I am talking about chemistry. The thing everyone says they must have or they won't date that person. These are not people in happy healthy marriages, these are normally older people with several failed relationships.

Why do you think chemistry is a good thing?

Ah, so ADD was me, eh? Thanks, never been called that before <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

OK, first regarding Gnome - I always worried about this posiibly coming back (no, I am not saying "told you so"), as I too dated a woman who I was crazy about but who was not very attracted to me - but who loved many of my qualities. So much so, that she kept stringing me along, and like a fool I went along. Not once, not twice, but thrice. What a moron.

But I do firmly believe that when a girl says to a guy "let's just start out as friends", it's a big red flag. And if the relationship does turn romantic, and then the "LJBF" bomb is dropped, well it's a huge red flag. I'd bail. Unless it is a "LJBFB", LMAO on that one, landica.

As for me, who knows. I have been dating A for 2 months, but she is different from anyone I ever dated before, so I am having a very hard time figuring her out. It's confusing, because she admits she is not ready to trust and open up, as she puts it, which is fine. But at the same time, she is pushing for physical closeness (you figure it out), which seems contradictory to me.

But the good thing is that I am not spouse shopping this time (happy, wiftty?), so I am not obsessing about "where is this going?". In fact, A and I had a talk on this very topic, and she actually suggested that she does not want to get involved too quickly only to get burned, so we both realize that this may not work and we can walk away without hurt feelings - or at least without major anger. So it feels "safe". Much better than with G, who is still e-mailing me, asking me to justify both the breakup and why I am not willing to "try again" now that she changed to be exactly what I always wanted. Ugh.

AGG

Thanks, all, for the advice. GG, from anecdotal reports I think it's fair to say that sometimes sparks can fly after becoming friends - but it doesn't seem to be typical. The problem is, in my situation we don't seem to have much choice. We need to find some way to take the pressure off. On the other hand, one thing I'm starting to suspect is that we may not work all that well as "just friends." As individuals, we are both very honest and open and direct. Establishing barriers to intimacy does not feel very natural, at least to me. And while she has committed to our relationship at the friendship level, she doesn't seem to know quite what to do with us either at this point. I feel like I have to work harder to keep a conversation going, and it just feels awkward when we stay superficial. I don't know whether this is just an adjustment phase, or whether it signifies something.

Nams, I have no intention of letting her "dictate" what happens. I will be keeping her apprised of how I am feeling and what I am thinking, and I have no doubt that we will negotiate boundaries accordingly, even if that means backing off further. On the other hand, some patience is also called for. If we turn every interaction into a relationship discussion, we'll never be able to relax and let ourselves see what happens naturally.

Weaver...you have an interesting perspective. It sounds like a slightly different angle on what Harville Hendrix teaches.

I suspect that a lot of this attraction/chemistry confusion has to do with semantic differences. Everyone has their own experiences, and it is difficult to know whether we are talking about the same things when we attempt to compare notes.

GG said: "As for friendships that develop into romances, I think those friendships had the potential for romance from the beginning." While I cannot disagree, it strikes me how singularly unhelpful this statement is. In the cases where this matters, how can you know up front whether the potential is there?

AGG, I don't know what to say (or think) about your "red flags." The thing is, I like the idea of starting out as just friends, whether or not there's romantic interest. It seems more sensible to me. And yet...I do suspect that there has to be a seed of something in order for romance to grow. I just don't know which seeds are viable (or which ones are - as weaver suggests - dangerous). I am even less clear on what to think about moving from romance to "LJBF." There are very specific and understandable reasons here why that was necessary in my situation, and I cannot discern whether those reasons are inherent or transitory in me/her/us.

In any case, though, I'm not worried about being "strung along." We're going through this - whatever this is - with honesty and awareness. I am confident that we have what it takes to figure this out, and to come through it wiser and stronger than when we started. (And speaking for myself, I'm not going to be deterred by some pain in the process.) I just don't know where we'll be when we get there.

One thing I do find kind of interesting, though...

In my previous unrequited-love situation I reached a point where the idea of a romantic relationship felt and seemed "right" to me; but I never reached a point where the idea of it not happening seemed "wrong," if you know what I mean. We could have been friends, and stayed friends, and as frustrating as the situation was for me, it never felt...I don't know...dishonest is perhaps the word I'm looking for. But where I am now...

It's not that I feel a sense of "need" here with..."T" I guess I'll call her (in the spirit of the one-letter designations people like to use around here and because she fits me to a "T" and because "thin mints" starts with "T"). I have my own life which is pretty interesting right now; and as unromantic as this may sound, if I never saw "T" again I don't believe it would take me long to recover or that she would hover at the back (or front) of my mind. But...this just seems so wrong to me!

Perhaps we just crossed paths for a brief season, to impact each other in ways which I believe will affect us for the rest of our lives. Perhaps that's all this is "supposed" to be about. I can acknowledge that intellectually. I can accept it. And yet...call it intuition, or a spiritual insight, or just plain old wishful thinking, but I can not bring myself to believe it.

Hi GDP... I've mostly been the LJBF type (though occasionally the LJBFB-type, too, landica!), at least for the men I've married and dated, so I know somewhat how you feel. Either way, I haven't yet been "the one", even for those men who seemed like they could be "the one" for me.

AGG, Sounds like things are going well, or at least ok in your romantic life. I know for me, the push for physical closeness was an attempt to short-cut the trust issue, which obviously doesn't work and can even be disastrous, so I'd trust your instincts on that!

Hi weaver! I really like what you posted. I, too, wonder if it's something I'm doing wrong. I'd love to hear your advice, or anyone else's for that matter, on the difference between "chemistry" and "attraction".

Perhaps not doing wrong, but looking for the wrong things. In the past I had always let the guy choose me and then if there were any sparks at all, I'd jump on in with both feet. I finally decided to listen to my mother who said a girl should do the choosing, not the other way around.

So I set out to figure out exactly what I wanted and didn't want in a mate, and also why I had always ended up in relationships that brought only pain, and high drama.

I want to take some time and go back over the stuff I read while in IC and what changed my perspective entirely on dating before I respond, okay? Just want to make some sense so you might actually get something out of it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Gnome, I have not read anything by Hendrix. Perhaps my IC did though.

I will say I approached my quest for a mate from a place of non-need (is that a word?). I treated it like an interview process. To me romance is a state of mind, as is love so I wasn't too concerned about the romance factor...knowing anyone I chose would have similar ideas as me. I was looking for someone spiritual, intellectual, with a fun spirit, and romantic by nature...like me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I even paid attention to the kinds of books they read. And if they didn't read books...well that's all I needed to know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Like Letstry, I was like this. Coughlin(sorry to keep using you as an example) does this too. This is someone who is in an unhealthy place, so good you are not wife shopping. Still, be careful.

great on the new attitude AGG, i think you will find it a bit less stressful, and relationships might actually last longer. . .

SF may be a high need for A, who knows, or maybe she is less J than you, I don't know. . . maybe she subscribes to friends with benefits, and that's all she is looking for.

i like the attitude as its a bit more relaxed, and friendly. . .


wiftty

GDP, it wasn't so much that I was worried your lady would string you along. It was more that I suspect it would be difficult for you to emotionally move on and be available to someone else if you remained "friends" with her.