Just wondering what everyones thoughts are on responsibility on both parts?
Our MC has talked about my BH taking responsibility for his part in the A. I understand what the MC is talking about, even though I know Im responsible for the action of the affair. Is it even possible for my H to undersatnd or comprehend his actions that helped lead to the A? I would think that must be an almost impossible thing to do anyway, let alone 10mon after D-day.
I know, being a FWW that an A doesnt happen in a happy, healthy, and nuturing M. Any thoughts on this would be greatly helpful.

Both of you read His Needs/Her Needs and Surviving and A. Then both will see how each can do their part to help their M recover. While doing so then each can see what the BS may have done to contribute to the fall of the M but not the cause of the A.

As the Xws, you bear most of the recovery work. Best to get good MC behind you. Call Jennifer C @ MB to help you and your BS recover.

All the best,
L.

"I know, being a FWW that an A doesn't happen in a happy, healthy, and nurturing M."

Actually, affairs happen in good marriages quite often.

For example, a fairly risky time for an affair is when one of the spouses suddenly succeeds in their career or at work. Entitlement is fed, selfishness blooms, adultery is born. Yet their marriage could have been judged better than most up to that point.

Read J A Spring - some of her books deal with this very situation.

Sometimes a spouse is just mostly a taker. The other spouse gives and gives and gives and ends up preventing the first spouse from ever having to grow in life. The taker is so entrenched in the first spouse even a slight change in how ENs are met, or a newly created feeling of entitlement (such as above) gets them thinking life could be even better than it already is, and this gives the adulterer all the initial rationalization they need.

Adultery does indeed occurs in good, nurturing marriages.

It wholly depends on the character and opportunity of the adulterer.

With prayers,

Tri,

My FWH had an affair, and our 30 year marriage was fairly strong and happy at the time.

It came out of nowhere.

His affair, he says, had nothing to do with emotion, and everything to do with sex-for-the-sake-of-sex.

Other than our sex life, ours was a good, nurturing marriage, and he could have just simply had ONE conversation with me and everything would have been

pre-empted.

So I would say this is ALL his fault. Not mine.

Because he DID have a route to NOT have an affair.

And did not choose that route.


Now that he has nuked our marriage, initially I had difficulty understanding this blame issue. I took full responsibility and he took none.

Now, things are very different.

We have come around full circle, and both realize that I could have done nothing different. There was no reason for him not to have talked with me, for him to do what he did.

And he accepts all of the blame.

100%

So adultery can occur in a good marriage.

It did in our marriage.

And now, I don't know if our marriage is good anymore.

But we try every day. He tries every single minute.

I try when I am able, because the nuclear bomb hit me right in the heart, and sometimes, I still suffer from the radiation poisoning he left behind.

SB

OMG!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> You just described my ENTIRE R with my H (now WH). I mean EXACTLY! I wasn't really aware of the sitch until we had a child together, and then it became apparent that I was the only one giving, and resentment began to build...

The next question would be whether someone like this (a TAKER) will ever reach out and be a GIVER?

Is this really how your MC phrased it?

I think he/she might have meant 'his part in the state of the marriage'? Your choice to have an A was yours alone - you do know that, don't you?

The state of your marriage was a mutual responsibility, and your H does indeed have a role to play in re-engineering that. But As often occur in happy, nurturing marriages...if just takes one partner to have expectations that can only be met by the other partner working flat out, or a period of pressure that one partner does not have the internal resources to deal with in a healthy way, for an A to become something 'deserved'.

Not saying that's the case with you, but you should be prepared for the possibility that your H's part in 'taking responsibility' might be to give far less to the marriage and expect you to hold your own end up as a healthy adult. Have you thought of that?

TA

Tri,

I can tell you that as a BS, being told that you are at fault in any way for being betrayed is one of the most hurtful things you will ever be told. To be honest, it actually hurts more than finding out about the A itself.

I also submit that it is absolute bovine excrement.

A BS likely did not do all that could have been done to prevent an A from happening. A BS might have been doing a terrible job of meeting ENs and making the M attractive to the WS. A BS might even have ignored warning signs and cries for help from the WS that, if heeded might have stopped the WS from ever beginning an A.

The thing is that none of those things caused the WS to have an A. Sharing the blame with the BS is like trying to defend yourself against a murder charge by saying that the person you killed had it coming because they weren't driving safely and might have killed someone, so you shot him as he sat at a stop light. Unless you were directly threatened or had a gun pointed at your head, your H did NOT cause you to have an A. He could no more make you unfaithful than he could make you grow an extra arm.

You had a choice to be faithful or unfaithful The choice was yours. You might have justified your choice based on what your H did or did not do, but the choice was all yours. He didn't decide to have an A, you did.

You can share your life, your marriage, your kids and your hopes and dreams, but you can't share your choices.

You might as well blame his employer for not paying him enough to buy you the big fancy house on the hill or your father for not teaching you to never do anything that selfish.

If your MC is using this as an approach to trying to save the M I would suggest a new MC.

Mark

I would sure hope not since he can't possibly be responsible for something over which he had absolutely no control. I bet if he were given a VOTE on your affair, he would have voted NO, therefore, he can't possibly take responsibility for something completely out of his control.

Hopefully, your MC can comprehend and understand that you are 100% responsible for your affair. If not, she is a quack and a numnut.

What your H is responsible for is PERHAPS the shabby state of your marriage. However, like TA and SB pointed out, many affairs happen in very good marriages. My H's affair happened despite the fact that I met his needs. He and our MC agreed there was nothing wrong in our marriage. All of his needs were met and he still had an affair. His affair was a result of his character deficiencies and nothing else. So, it can't even be assumed that a bad marriage led to a vulnerability.

Tri,

Still there? This is hard, but you can make it. Live up to the no excuses - bottom line - you and every WS out there - like me - had "holes/wounds/reasons" and chose to do the worst thing ever to our S. We did not give them a chance to stop us! My H has said over and over that I did not give him a chance.

Now,you've given up the opportunity to play the blame game. Just like me --- gave it up when I made the wrong decision. So, now you have to give your H time to heal and then start to accept that he may not have been perfect in the marriage. I agree after 18 months that my BH did not have any responsibility in my decision. He is blameless in that regard. Was he perfect? No. Is he allowed to be imperfect and still have a faithful W? YES.

Sorry girl...this is hard. You and I and everyone out there on both sides chose the hard route. We want our families together.

My BH is making strides lately ... but so am I. And, believe me the devil is mad!!! He's mad about any family that holds it together instead of throwing in the towel!!But God is on my side and can be on yours. Know who you are fighting!!!! And, you will make it and I will make it!

Keep reading and learning and God will set the right "angels" in your path to help you through!

lilmom

Trigirls,

I'm hoping you are still here. I know that the replies you have gotten were not what you wanted to hear and probably not at all what you expected. I think you will find that there are not a lot codependency movement fans to be found here.

Since I am a man, I hope that the ladies out there will forgive me for this.

Does a rape victim have any responsibility for her violation?

For centuries, this was the kind of defense mounted by defendants in rape cases. The argument was made that the victim contributed in some way to the attack. The woman was said to have dressed too provocatively or "led on" her attacker in some way. Sometimes she was said to have been a "loose woman" as if that made it alright. Even today the argument is made in cases where a girl attends a party and after much drinking is raped, especially if her attacker was her date for the evening.

When someone sues a big corporation and wins, the company's lawyers will attempt to argue that the plaintiff was in some way responsible, at least to some degree, for their own injuries. Successfully making this case has often been able to get a settlement amount reduced by making the point that their client was only responsible for a percentage of the damage. A judge may reduce the settlement by some amount to offset the share of responsibility that is determined to be the plaintiff's.

But does that argument apply to rape cases?

Assuming that your answer is the same as mine...If your husband took you to a swingers' party and you had an encounter with someone else, you could be justified in arguing that he was partly at fault for your actions, since he took you there and made it seem as if that was what he intended to happen. But in the case of an A, no such argument is possible. For one thing I would bet that you kept your A secret from him, so he had no chance to consent. I would also bet you used some form of trickery and lies to deceive him in order to begin the A and continue it for some period of time. I also know that the reasons you gave yourself and that you have attempted to get him and others to buy into are along the lines of, "I hadn't been happy for a long time. / Our marriage was just a sham any way. / He never really seemed to care what I wanted or what I was doing. / He did X_____. / He didn't do Y______." At the time you made these arguments to yourself they seemed valid and as if they made sense, but in all, you chose to break your vows, your husband had no say in the matter and anything you can conceive of to shift the blame to him by coming up with reasons you did it are empty.

Just like a rape victim, your husband is in no way responsible for you having an A he knew nothing about, did not suggest that you have and if given a choice would not have agreed to. A rape may be worse than finding out that your marriage has been violated, but if it is, I can't imagine how anyone could survive the pain and anguish. I've experienced the one, and if the other is worse, I'm at a loss as to the pain it must cause.

And FWIW, you are not the first person to post on these forums with this kind of question. You also won't be the last. And, yes, anyone who does so is greeted by approximately the same kind of greeting.

Welcome to Marriage Builders, BTW. It can be a place of genuine healing and help you to recover your marriage. Just don't expect anyone here to blow sunshine up your but 'cause that's not gonna happen...

My apologies to rape victims if you were offended by my analogy.

Mark

Trigirls, you’ve already received excellent replies on your statement above. In addition to that I also want you to read the following by Shirley Glass (author of the book NOT "Just Friends"). Especially pay attention to the parts I’ve underlined:

[color:"blue"]Good people in good marriages are having affairs. More times than I can count, I have sat in my office and felt torn apart by the grief, rage, and remorse of the people I counsel as they try to cope with the repercussions of their infidelity or their partner’s betrayal. In two-thirds of the couples I’ve treated in my clinical practice over the past twenty years, either the husband, the wife, or both were unfaithful. Broken promises and shattered expectations have become part of our cultural landscape, and more people who need help in dealing with them appear in my office every day.

Surprisingly, the infidelity that I’m seeing these days is of a new sort. It’s not between people who are intentionally seeking thrills, as is commonly believed. The new infidelity is between people who unwittingly form deep, passionate connections before realizing that they’ve crossed the line from platonic friendship into romantic love. Eighty-two percent of the unfaithful partners I’ve treated have had an affair with someone who was, at first, “just a friend.” Well-intentioned people who had not planned to stray are not only betraying their partners but also their own beliefs and moral values, provoking inner crises as well as marital ones.

Most people mistakenly think it is possible to prevent affairs by being loving and dedicated to one’s partner. I call this the “Prevention Myth,” because there is no evidence to support it. My experience as a marital therapist and infidelity researcher has shown me that simply being a loving partner does not necessarily insure your marriage against affairs. You also have to exercise awareness of the appropriate boundaries at work and in your friendships. This book will help you learn to observe boundaries or set them up where you need to. It will tell you the warning signals and red flags you need to pay attention to in your own friendships and in your partner’s.

Just because infidelity is increasingly common doesn’t mean that most people understand it. So much of the advice on television shows and in popular books about how to affair-proof your marriage is misleading. In fact, much of the conventional wisdom about what causes affairs and how to repair relationships is misguided.

Popular thinking about infidelity--and the therapy that deals with it--is clouded by myths. The facts, which my research and clinical experience prove, are much more surprising--and thought-provoking--than unfounded popular and clinical assumptions. Here are a few truths that you will learn from this book:

• Assumption: Affairs happen in unhappy or unloving marriages.
Fact: Affairs can happen in good marriages. Affairs are less about love and more about sliding across boundaries.
• Assumption: Affairs occur mostly because of sexual attraction.
Fact: The lure of an affair is how the unfaithful partner is mirrored back through the adoring eyes of the new love. Another appeal is that individuals experience new roles and opportunities for growth in new relationships.
• Assumption: A cheating partner almost always leaves clues, so a naïve spouse must be burying his or her head in the sand.
Fact: The majority of affairs are never detected. Some individuals can successfully compartmentalize their lives or are such brilliant liars that their partners nevers find out.
• Assumption: A person having an affair shows less interest in sex at home.
Fact: The excitement of an affair can increase passion at home and make sex even more interesting.
• Assumption: The person having an affair isn’t getting enough at home.
Fact: The truth is that the unfaithful partner may not be giving enough. In fact, the spouse who gives too little is more at risk than the spouse who gives too much because he or she is less invested.
• Assumption: A straying partner finds fault with everything you do.
Fact: He or she may in fact become Mr. or Mrs. Wonderful in order to escape detection. Most likely he or she will be alternately critical and devoted.[/color]

Thank you for the posts,...I am still here,...and yes some of the responses, especialy the ones that were written w/out an ounce of love, compassion, or support in them, are very hard to read.

Please anyone who responds to any of my post, know that Im not here to be "pampered" or babied in any way, but Im also not here to be judged or emotionaly beat up. God knows Ive had enough of that in my life and not just since the A. I take full 100% responibility for my A. I guess my wording was wrong in the start of this post,...meaning his responisiblity in the down fall or state of our marriage, and also the prevention of it returning to that. I do think "part in the A" were the MC words, I dont think that is exactly what he meant either.

I think my biggest fear right now is our M going back to state it was before. Weve seem to hit a platue,...theres no arguing, fighting, yelling, name calling, abuse. Which is so good and glad were through all that, but he doesnt talk much to me about how hes feeling, finds every excuse not to be home, and this is the way it was before the A happen for years.

Im terrified of feeling the pain of lonliness again and not knowing how to deal with it. I know an A is not the answer. I feel the comfort I need is something I need to find within myself, but honestly clueless how to get there.

I tried to express how alone I felt, but he just didnt seem to care and after years I guess I got to the point where I didnt either. Im not using that as an excuse because I know that there is no excuse for what I did. And I see that now and understand why I had an A. So I feel Ive come a long way in my own recover process. Which has been far more painful than I know I ever thought.

I asked H to shut the tv off lastnight after the kids went to bed, so we could talk. I told him I wished he would talk to me more and I expressed my fears and concerns about where we are and where were headed. He didnt really have much to say. He said that he understands, that he hates to see me this way(crying) all the time, he likes it better when Im happy and smiling. He said he couldnt fake how he feels. He's not sure what we are anymore. I told him I just wanted to be honest about how Ive been feeling lately, and the fears I have about it.

I thank the ones who have posted from their kind and compassionate heart for the support and healing of others here. I suppose I just need to be patient,pray and continue to work on myself.

Hi Trigirls,

You BS does not have to bear any responsibility for your affair, you alone made that choice.

However, he does have to bear his share of responsibility for making your marriage uninhabitable enough to be vulnerable to an affair. I think maybe that's what your MC meant...

Do you understand the difference? Believe me, I understand exactly how you feel, and it hurts. I think all FWW's have said to themselves, "if only he had not spent so much time working/golfing/hunting…if only he had remembered to pay attention to ME and to our marriage…if only he hadn't belittled/criticized/left me crying so many times…if only he had let me know that he cared about me and cherished me and loved me…" Believe me, I know how you feel. And all those "if onlys" are likely true. If he hadn't done this, then you wouldn't have done that. ALL quite possibly true. A+B=C. See…it really does seem like it's all his fault, doesn't it???

But wait….now comes the tough part. Lots of women have crappy husbands yet never make the choice to move forward with an affair. Some divorce, some just deal. YOU made the choice to have an affair, to try to solve the problems within your marriage by searching outside of it. Maybe you begged your H to change and he just scoffed. Maybe you cried to him to please just listen to you, and he dismissed you…."stop being so sensitive" or "jeez, someone's PMS-ing today"….it hurts to be taken for granted, doesn't it?? So you gave up, and when somebody started paying attention to you, you couldn't resist. So now you have to figure out WHY?? What was going on inside of YOU at the time? What did you tell yourself that gave you permission to have an affair? Why did you give up trying to get your H to meet your needs and look elsewhere instead?? What happened to your boundaries? You not only betrayed your H, you betrayed yourself as well, your morals and your values. Search inside yourself and find out WHY. You probably know why your marriage was vulnerable to an affair…now you need to find out why YOU were. Every affair has a story and a message….I urge you AND your H to dig deep and find yours.

And, interestingly, our MC, who has a PhD and was probably schooled in the last decade, also told us that affairs do not happen in good marriages…

Des

Tri, I don't see a single post on this thread that was not extremely supportive and well intended. Many folks went out of their way to offer their support. We are here to support, not "love;" you can get that from your momma. Compassion is expressed through truth, not nice words. The most compassionate and supportive thing is to tell you how it is, not chatter some empty, nice words to make you feel good. You won't find much of that here, thankfully.

So please try to keep an open mind even if you hear something you may not like. It may come in handy in the future.

Trigirls,
I know it can be tricky many times ......but How things are worded does matter many times in the types of responses you get.
Unfortunate perhaps .....but very Real Nonetheless.

Yes,
you probably should have stated your question more like "How do I get my H to acknowledge/own his part in the Dissatisfaction in our marriage" or some version there off.
Basically leaving any mention of HIM and Your A ....totally separate.

You've heard enough about YOU owning your actions 100% ........so I'll leave that alone.

Here's the sad part about what your looking for in your H (both currently and pre A).

You of course are still looking for the same thing emotionally,
however,
by having your A ......your H's focus (at least for now) is on THAT.
Just as your focus was while you were having it.

Now just as it took you time to Do it and then work beyond it,
so too must you H.
His time line is behind yours and your Wanting to move it along faster ......won't make it so.

Wishing you success in hanging in there till he does begin to accept his role in the good and bad in your marriage.

Trigirls,

Okay ... he's pulling back and not wanting to talk. My BH also did this. I used to laugh pre-A and say that he would go on 3 day or 5 day mads. So, when he started this behavior periodically after the A, (for much longer times) it wasn't a surprise to me. But, it is Passive/Aggressive behavior. There's a web site about "Get the Angries Out" (not sure of address) but it talks about passive agressive behavior and how to deal with it. The thing that I came away with, was p/a if not handled properly willl delay your recovery.

I don't want to play arm chair MC... but if this is going on for a significant period of time you need to learn how to address it.

As for the loneliness, I can tell you that you learn to deal with the loneliness by keeping positive about the hope of a healed marriage. I want to be the voice on this site that is hope. I think there is a lot of pain out there and this is a good place to vent. Believe me I got my share of venters (and posters that called them on it). Just try to hear your H when they vent and maybe you can gain something from them also. Also, I have tried to build female friendships. I'm not sure about you, but many of the FWW that I have met through our "nightmare" have had problems in the past making deep friendships with women. I know that was one of my holes. I desparately wanted a friend... even told the OM several times I wish he were a female. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Those "just friends" posts really hit me! So, I guess I'm saying for the lonliness reach out...it gives you time to heal and return to yourself.

My BH said the same about wanting me to laugh, smile and be myself again. It's a catch 22. If you are happy they are mad and if you are sad they are mad. You have to be sensitive, but try to reach out to supportive, safe relationships with family/female friends to get you through...and keep reaching out to your H.

Remember this is a long road...you can do this.

lilmom
_______

I've felt really lead to pray for you... I hope you don't mind.

God, I come to you today and lift up trigirls to you. We know that you are the healer of the brokenhearted, and we ask for your healing for all of the BS out there, including her H. We know that you designed marriage as a blessing and that you can touch the BS's heart and make it new -- your word says this and we ask that you give trigirl's H and all the BS's a new heart. Lord, I ask for your strength to go on another day and that you place others in the path of the FWS that are "angels" to let them know that you care about them and can fill the lonely heart.

Father, thank you that you have forgiven even me.....In Jesus name, Amen.

Tri,

I got what you meant.

That's my job, by the way - to see what people really mean by what they say/write.

Anyhooo.

I came from a place of love to you. I try to do that with all my being. Doesn't always come through. I apologize for that.

My pain shows through - so what you saw as "not love" was really "pain", nothing more.

Again, I meant no offense. I see you as a person trying to save her marriage. This is honorable and good.

My husband is doing what you are doing, and probably feels much the same as you do many days. Your BH feels betrayed and confused. He knows what he did to contribute to the state of the marriage, but doesn't feel like it justified your affair. Now, he's thinking "I should have an affair too - she had one" and he's fighting that thought. He's fighting doing the dishonorable thing, the pain, the betrayal.

He's fighting feeling stabbed in the heart by someone who is saying, "I love you" at the same time.

He doesn't understand it.

This takes time. He CAN'T contribute to the recovery of your marriage until he is sure that YOU will not betray him again. Can you understand that? He's not willing or able to invest in something he does not trust as a sure bet. He has had his life nuked, and he's not the same anymore.

His emotions are flat.
Then, they are up.
Then, they are down.

You bought him a ticket on a rollercoaster, he has no control of getting on it or off of it, no control of the speed, he's alone, and

he's in the dark.

You also need to understand that his timeline for recovering is a different one from yours. You cannot expect him to "get over it" because you are done with the affair and you want him to fix things now because you are ready.

He has to figure out his own reaction to the affair. Forgive you. Forgive himself for STAYING WITH YOU IN SPITE OF THE AFFAIR (and this is no small task, because there are so many people out there telling him to kick you to the curb and he hasn't done that!). Figure out how to put his feelings on an even keel. Figure out how to FEEL again. Figure out how to recover his self-esteem. Figure out how to trust you. Figure out how to trust himself.

This will not happen overnight.

He cannot get the recovery to you by FedEx and have it done.

You will have to WORK on it for about two years, minimum.

If you go in knowing this, you'll be better off.

Tri, it's really up to you to do the starting work. Because you can only control you.

I recommend you start in with meeting HIS emotional needs. Because by doing that, he will be more willing to be at home. And you can begin to rebuild his trust in you. It's one way to show him your love for him. And right now, he doesn't believe that you do love him. Start there.

tri, he may not care at this point and may not have the ability to care after the trauma of an affair. As a BS, I can tell you that it took some time to not feel revulsion and deep pain after his affair. I certainly did not care about his feelings at all, I had a traumatic WOUND to deal with.

And this is where he is right now, he is on the floor bleeding to death and you are concerned that he "cares." You must first stop the bleeding of your victim.

I think the best way to do that is to do everything you can to help him deal with this. Secondly, I would suggest that both of you take the emotional needs questionaire and learn how to meet his needs. Oftentimes, when you meet a spouses needs, they become WILLING to meet yours. If you learn to take care of him and show loving care for him, he will want to show you that you.

But, you have to take the first step. And part of that first step is the realization that adultery is as traumatic as RAPE. Your H has been through the greatest betrayal a spouse can inflict. He is on the floor bleeding. I think if you realize that and focus on HIM that he may come to care about your feelings more. But, he needs CARE much more now.

I know all the answers,...gone over them a millions times to make sure there was no fog, and what Ive discovered is this,....
I think I just gave up,...for years I was the perfect wife. Every desire he had, I met. He even admits that. I wanted him home more, he was afraid to be home because he didnt know how to love, he was afraid of it. I slowly put up a wall and quit caring, and at first it was his same reaction to get mad, and that worked before because I felt guilty. Although this time I didnt care, I had had enough,...and met someone who right from the beginning paid attn. and was there.

I now know that I never fulling let my husband go because it wasnt the OM that I wanted even though I told myself it was, it was my H that I wanted. I was so afraid of everything going back to the way they were, my H couldnt have done anything to convince me otherwise, he tried.

Why I let my morals and values to go out the window? Im honestly not sure, other than morals and values just didnt fit into getting what I wanted at the time, which I know isnt ok, I knew then it wasnt ok. But I made myself believe I was happy, and I felt I had sacrafised so much, why didnt I deserve to be happy? I was selfish, and in a complete fog. Ive often said to my girlfriends that I cant believe someone can be so messed up and completely sober at the same time.

I didnt love myself enough to do the right thing, and just leave if it was that bad for me. I was and am still afraid to be alone, even though Ive done it and continue to be alone quite a bit. Doesnt make much sense.

I understand enough to know that I will never stray from my M again. Its fixing what Ive done now that is so hard, and will it ever be enough,...I dont know?

you may want to re-think this

as in ~~~> is there any such thing as a perfect person?

Making such a statement shows your current state of readiness to accept your own imperfections

think about it

being "perfect" is an awful burden for the OTHER people having to live with a "perfect" someone

re-think ... and say what you really mean .... OK?

you're doing just fine so far ... we are here to lean on you sometimes, and to be leaned on other times

Pep