lilmom~ I cant thank you enough for the prayer,...it touched my heart more than you can imagine! You are a blessing!

SB,Mark,Mel,&all~ Thank you for reaching out and showing me what my H is going through. I will be more patient. I have never thought or said "get over it" nor will I ever, just so you know.

H and I have talked about retaliation affairs and he has been encouraged by others to do it, but he knows and I also told him that it would only make things feel worse. I know he is strong enough and values himself enough not to.

I do try to meet his needs when hes home,...its mostly sexual. Whats up with that? Could it be a comfort thing?

Im going to print out the EN form, and give it to him to fill out. Should be interesting

It's a BH-thing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. You may see it as "mostly sexual", but for us BH's, it's a lot more than that. Also, for many men, "Affection" and "SF" are closely connected - this means that you get to meet two ENs for the price of one <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

It's also important how you act towards him during and after SF. Acting like it's a chore and disappearing right afterwards are not the best things to do.

TG,

The formula for a wayward state of mind is:

Entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect.

"I know all the answers,...gone over them a millions times to make sure there was no fog, and what Ive discovered is this,....
I think I just gave up,"

In order to live in freedom, you have to know your human power. You chose to give up. You chose to focus on your BH, which is a helpless, powerless position...now you're choosing to know and act from your own power...who you really are...to value and love yourself. Insert "choice" into your life. It is always missing from the formula.

"...for years I was the perfect wife. Every desire he had, I met."

Which is crippling, disabling and parental. He's your partner, not your child. And had he known then that you sacrificed and created resentment, he would have happily NOT wanted you to do anything which you would resent him for. Gladly.

"He even admits that. I wanted him home more, he was afraid to be home because he didnt know how to love, he was afraid of it. I slowly put up a wall and quit caring, and at first it was his same reaction to get mad, and that worked before because I felt guilty. Although this time I didnt care, I had had enough,...and met someone who right from the beginning paid attn. and was there."

A clean slate, not a real person, TG. You went to fantasy to soothe reality...and you found out, really doesn't work, does it? When your Giver ran rampant, you felt righteous, a perfect wife. You were giving to get...which is the flip side of tit for tat. Have you changed your life-long belief that we earn love (therefore, we earn punishment)?

"I now know that I never fulling let my husband go because it wasnt the OM that I wanted even though I told myself it was, it was my H that I wanted. I was so afraid of everything going back to the way they were,"

I read where this remains your fear. Would you acknowledge that you are not the person you were, you cannot go back to the marriage you once had? You're half of it...change half, the whole changes, doesn't it?

"my H couldnt have done anything to convince me otherwise, he tried."

Sounds like love to me...and you said he was afraid to love. Or was he afraid of you, failing you, felt criticized, less than his perfect wife? I'm not attacking...I'm asking you to go where he lived...and your feelings of abandonment, annihilation from his withdrawal was part of this downward spiral for both of you...not his inability, his fear...yours, as well. Giving to get, earning love, works and works until it doesn't work...because it NEVER did...you were loved because your BH chose to love you...same for him...you chose to love him and act from your love. You chose to meet his needs, every single one of them all the time...so you could get yourself filled up by him...and you did a spectacular job of banking up your worth through him...until he didn't deliver.

He wasn't designed to...nor were you. We don't make others exist...they exist. They have total control over themselves...they are the cause, control and cure for everything in them, about them. They have no control...cannot be the cause or cure for others. We can sure experience life as if we do, though...can't we? Is it real? Nope.

(I lost a better post to you, I swear!) I had your previous post quoted...from the first thread...and in it, I pointed out where I saw DJs...which was my main culprit in life. I really connected very much with your story, and then I doubted myself, when I'd finished it...reached for more and copied over my first post...not a board problem...an LA problem.

You can feel attacked...abandoned...erased...and not be attacked, abandoned or erased. Our perception is part of our stuff...our own truth...along with our thoughts, feelings, beliefs and perspectives. We choose these...they are valid and our own. Like feelings, they are signals to us, from us, for us. And you nailed it that your lack of love, respect and value for yourself was at the bottom of your choice to have an A...I'm glad you're here...to find your way to valuing, loving, owning and respecting yourself...

Because what you do for yourself, you'll do for others. Especially BH.

Your focus has been on your BH for years...which tells self you aren't worth a thought, an act of love. Bring your focus back onto yourself...come home...so you can learn to share who you are...and hear who he is...be open and honest with each other, and really safe to be partners...two whole people, growing side by side. Choosing to be side by side.

"I knew then it wasnt ok. But I made myself believe I was happy, and I felt I had sacrafised so much, why didnt I deserve to be happy?"

Self-deceit is another part of that formula...it's within resentment, which is self-deceit...where we create resentment through our own choices and actions, and believe others are doing it to us.

"I didnt love myself enough to do the right thing, and just leave if it was that bad for me. I was and am still afraid to be alone, even though Ive done it and continue to be alone quite a bit. Doesnt make much sense."

Makes a lot of sense to me. I remember.

"I understand enough to know that I will never stray from my M again. Its fixing what Ive done now that is so hard, and will it ever be enough,...I dont know?"

There you go, again, into the future...same for "Am I fighting a losing battle?" Revoke your permission to go anywhere in your mind except right now...that's the seat of reality...for all of us. Going into the future is fantasy and dwelling in the past is as well.

Are you safe to share with yourself, and be shared with by your BH? Has your MC assigned home exercises and do you guys do them? Assigned books for each of you to read (most likely, different ones)? Are you journaling?

You can heal from your whole life, TG...learning to live from your beliefs, not your emotions; learning we don't earn love, we choose to believe we love and act from love...which results in feeling well loved, and loving well and true.

You can do this. You are a whole, complete, capable, marvelously made human being...separate and equal to all other humans. Living from this tenet is the key to injecting respect...listening to know, not to judge or fix your BH's stuff...and sharing to share your own...not to be fixed or judged (approved of)...makes a whole new marriage.

I promise.

I'm living it. And we still fear reverting back...and we don't...because we learned where we disconnect, we also reconnect...and we focus on the reconnecting.

You can, as well.

LA

Great MIM,...thanks for the male input. I try to be very careful to not act like its a chore,...its an everyday thing so its not always easy. I try to initiate more so he feels wanted by me.

Pep,...Things get taken so literal sometimes,....no of course not a perfect wife,...but I feel I tried very hard to make sure he was taken care of and felt loved by me.

I think I will need to re think a lot of things seeing sometimes I feel so confused and lost,...but not lost in the fog! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You and anyone else may lean on me anytime. I love how we as WS and BS can help eachother from a different perspective.

I believe you

however, if you approach your H in marriage counseling and say "I was the perfect wife" .... >ahem< .... AFTER having betrayed your husband ... it's just the wrong choice of words ... because it does not indicate a humble & contrite heart on your part....

hang in there

Pep

Whoa, 8 months after D-Day and it's still an everyday thing for you both?? Oh, if I was only so lucky <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Last night, after a 6-day hiatus, I initiated and my FWW's response was, well... I was left feeling neglected, humiliated and hurt, and wondering if I'd be going through the same emotional grinder if I was with someone else.

I think it's good that you're initiating more. The "I'll just lie here and let you do what you want and just tell you when I don't think you're doing it right" approach is a great way to NOT meet a H's need for SF...:(.

I'm glad this post is here since I've been mulling the same question around in my mind as a BS. I think for me, it's clearer now that not meeting ENs is failing my marriage but did not cause an A. The two get confusing for me as in I think if I can meet FWH's ENs then I should be able to "prevent" a future A. And the way the Harleys put it is that As happen b/c ENs are not getting met. But then if that's the case, how is it the BS didn't "cause" the A is what tends to go on in my head.

And our MC pointed out last week that it's a no-win situation to think of it like that. That you can never control another person through your actions or in-actions. The choice ultimately lies within them.

And also said that good marriages sometimes have a cheating partner in them. Not that our M was good at the time, it wasn't. But a huge question that has always remained with me is that it wasn't really, really bad either. I actually thought it was getting much better at the time the A happened.

So all the responses to you helped me figure this out a little bit more. I still don't feel it on a gut level. That's part of me not being able to give up control. But at least I can see it intellectually now. The ENs are for the *marriage.* (right?) Failing to meet ENs can lead to several things happening - talking, marriage counseling, divorce, affairs. But the responsibility of which choice is made ultimately lies within each person and is not caused by the other person. (right? still struggling with this)

TG,

How's today going? Still got that hope alive? Today is a good day for us! 18 months and finally breaking through thanks to the reality of this web site! Keep talking and listening.

I can tell you that the break through will come...with men it is especially hard. Keep filling that LB. I can also atest to much interest in the SF department for my BH after the A. It had to do with the A feeling like I was saying he wasn't enough of a man (so he had something to prove <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)-- when in actuality I was wanting him desparately.

One long time recovered BS, put it this way ... love your way through it!!!! If you can try to get your H to leave everyting at the bedroom door...and if you have to not talk there to make that happen then fine...but make that one place that you can leave everything behind. We made the mistake of carrying a lot of arguements in the bedroom to keep them from the kids... in retrospect I wish that we had chosen another place. Now, we don't fight in there.

I pray that things are going better for you both today.

Also -- try grabbing the book love languages. We really had fun having all our family members take the surveys.

lilmom

lilmom~
Today is such a good day, for both of us. I asked him to fill out the EN questionaire and he did,...saying that he didnt need to, that I was doing everything right that I could do. I told him to do it anyway, so that I can make sure for myself that Im doing all I can to help him, and show him how much I love him. We had a great night together and has decided HE wanted to take tomorrow off to spend the day with me. Im high on love!!!!

I also went to Starbucks this morning and sat there reading my book while I had my morning latte, just to fill myself up with a little of my own love for myself.

How did you know when your H turned a corner? Was it that apparent?

All the info and input from everyone has been soooooo great and uplifting. Some of it I still need to read over a few times to get it to sink in and understand it.(LA..;) )
Im sure Ill still need some guidance as the roller coaster will continue, but thats ok and I know part of the process. Im also here for anyone to lean on as well.
Blessings to all!

Glad to hear it!!!

As for turning a corner, it was very obvious!!!! He went from the daily snide comments and questions to nothing. I can't believe the difference honestly.

God, I'm sooooooooooooooo thankful!!!!

Keep writing and I'll keep up lifting you. I know how hard this is. You could have written my story...hopefully you and your H can get to recovery sooner rather than later like we did.

Also, I agree with your comment about LA's post. WOW! I had to read that one a few times.

It's amazing how infulential this web site has been to our recovery. I pray that you have found the same!

BTW, we've had another good day!! And, I'll let you know if I need a lift!

lilmom

Trigirls,

I am glad to see you have gotten such good advice. Are you reading Surviving an Affair by Harley? You might want to look at it. I think you are worrying about things that seem to be progressing on a fairly normal time line.

I note that you stated you moved out, and it seemed that it was before your H found out about the affair. Could you provide a bit of a time line and what each of your responses were to the major events: You starting the affair, you moving out, H finding out, and you moving home.

It might help some to provide a bit better insight to what you can expect. I would suggest that at some time you sit down and right out what the "perfect" marriage would look like to you and ask your H to do the same. Not that you are trying for perfect, but if you both realize what the other wants, AND you understand each others needs, you two might be able to come up with a plan to rebuild this marriage.

Plans are big on this site because they lead to action. I suspect you would have been better able to protect your boundaries if you had a plan to deal with what you were feeling in your marriage. You will be much better prepared to handle your marriage in the future you have definite boundaries specified in your personal plan. Things that will start you to take actions if your boundaries are crossed.

Much to say, but as you have gathered from all that have responded to you, your marriage can be rebuilt. They did it or are doing it.

God Bless,

JL

Hi Hanes, maybe this analogy will help in determining BS and WS culpability...

I liken it to a house fire.

Maybe you were careless, left greasy rags, stacked newspapers, combustibles laying around, maybe you even turned the gas on. All the elements were present for a tragedy, but still, no fire. Then your WS lit a match, and maybe that match would have been harmless under other circumstances, but in these particular circumstances, a raging inferno ensued, one that gutted your house and destroyed your dreams and took away everything that you loved.

You didn't CAUSE the fire, but you certainly may have been able to prevent the fire from occuring. See what I mean?

The BS will cry, "I didn't start the fire!! It's not my fault!", and the WS will respond, "yeah, but if all these contaminants hadn't been in our home in the first place, there never would have been a fire!"

Take what you want from it. It all comes down to semantics, really; interpret it in whatever way works for you. But be honest with yourself about it.

The WS certainly needs to step up to the plate and apologize for "striking the match"…

But, in most cases, the BS needs to step up the plate too, and apologize for the ways in which they contributed to "contaminating the house"….

Because had neither of those things happened, there wouldn't have been a house fire.

Des

[quote

Actually, affairs happen in good marriages quite often.

For example, a fairly risky time for an affair is when one of the spouses suddenly succeeds in their career or at work. Entitlement is fed, selfishness blooms, adultery is born. Yet their marriage could have been judged better than most up to that point.

Read J A Spring - some of her books deal with this very situation.

Sometimes a spouse is just mostly a taker. The other spouse gives and gives and gives and ends up preventing the first spouse from ever having to grow in life. The taker is so entrenched in the first spouse even a slight change in how ENs are met, or a newly created feeling of entitlement (such as above) gets them thinking life could be even better than it already is, and this gives the adulterer all the initial rationalization they need.

Adultery does indeed occurs in good, nurturing marriages.

It wholly depends on the character and opportunity of the adulterer.

With prayers, [/quote]


Thank you for this thread. I feel a little better now that I have read it.

Lake

The house analogy makes sense to me and that is how I've seen it. Like meeting ENs, trying to have a healthy marriage can help to prevent an affair. I guess it boils down to you could have no combustibles around and your spouse just decides to light a match anyway. That's the lack of control aspect. You can only control your part in it. To extend the analogy, your spouse can say, "hey, let's clean up all these rags soaked in gasoline today to keep our house safe." And obviously a WS never says that.

Yes, it can just be semantics but the semantics is important I think. You have to be willing to admit that you can keep a clean house even in the future but your spouse has the *choice* to help with the upkeep or to go ahead and light a match. Or not do anything. You're not going to be able to control that choice. It has to be *their* choice just like you make your own choices regarding your own house and not just the marital one.

Thank you, thank you! Totally helped!

Hanes and Desdemona,

The analogy holds up only as long as the lighting of the match is an accident (not likely) or is a normal event of everyday life.(also not likely)

A better analogy would be that the garage was full of oily rags and flammable materials. The WS knowing that if he/she lights a cigarette in the living room the BS will not like it, heads for the garage and tries to hide the fact that they are smoking, though they promised their spouse at their wedding that they would never smoke again.

So now, while hiding in the garage to avoid being caught, the WS lights a match, and the house burns down.

The decision that led to the fire wasn't the lighting of the match, it was the decision to smoke even though it betrayed the promise we made to our spouse.

The decision that led to the affair wasn't falling for some one who met ENs better, it was allowing an intimate bond to form with someone not our spouse.

A boundary is a line that must not be crossed. For it to do any good at all, it must never be crossed under any circumstances. If we allow that it was crossed because of something outside of our control, something someone else did or did not do, the decision to cross it was still ours.

What I'm getting at is that having an A is never the right choice, no matter how bad a marriage. If it is bad enough to leave, then leave. If it is good enough to fix, then try to fix it, but an A is never justifiable under any circumstances. It is simply wrong and cannot be made right by shifting responsibility or by claiming just cause.

Mark

Good day gone bad,...anyone surprised? Im not, just extremely frustrated! Ill go vent/journal now. lol

Okay --- now add a smokey fog into the picture (because there is nothing that is clear -- only fog/fantasy/lies). And, a person (real OM/OW or thoughts WS tells themself) standing in the middle of the garage saying...look how bad this mess is (exaggeration), I know you didn't make this mess (lie), you're too great a person (exaggeration), what would make you feel better is to let me help or deal with the person who did this(lie), I know just how you can make this better (lie) - Just come close to me and I have a match that will let you see everything better (trap and lie) --- the WS then makes a choice to light the match knowing that they promised to never light the match...and the garage is set on fire!

Now in some cases the BS runs away from the fire and in other cases they run in and save the WS from the burning garage. They are both burned beyond recognition. Over the years, a lot of healing must take place and then you have to rebuild the garage to survive.

_______________

Now, I think we need to also realize that each person in the realtionship also brought in garbage to the garage when they moved in....so there is even trash lyaing around causing damage that we had from our parents, grandparents, friends, siblings, and past relationships.

Bottom line, never dealing with the trash is/was dangerous, and lighting the match was wrong/horrible/sinful (#1 because we told the person we love - we wouldn't) and did cause the fire. Just remember, that no one has true freedom in a relationship (A or not) until the trash is dealt with.

Gosh -- wish I had dealt with my trash earlier!! How about you?

lilmom

Mark,

Sorry, I like my analogy better, at least for my situation. And in my analogy, the striking of the match is much more a feeling than an action; a potentially WS starts working on a project with someone new. Every day they see this new person, and this new person takes the time to ask about them and shows interest in their lives. The potentially WS enjoys spending time with the new friend/associate The match has been struck. In one situation, the potentially WS has a very satisfying home life; their needs have been met and they are happy. There are no combustibles laying around their house. The flame on the match quickly fizzles out…there is nothing to keep it lit. The faithful spouse still likes his or her new friend, but not inappropriately. In another situation, however, the potentially WS has a terrible homelife. Their spouse is verbally abusive, emotionally absent, physically absent, whatever. Their house is full of combustibles. The potentially WS has given up trying to get their soon-to-be BS to clean up their act. The match is struck, and it soon rages out of control, destroying everything and everyone, WS included.

Same OP scenario, different life circumstances, and different outcomes.

I think that I read that 95% of people think affairs are wrong, yet 50% of marriages will be torn apart by them. How can that be? We all know that affairs are never the right choice, but still they happen; it doesn't matter that they aren't justifiable.

Put into the form of a simple equation, VM + VS = A. A vulnerability within the marriage + a vulnerability within the ws = an affair. In most cases, eliminating the marital vulnerability or the spousal vulnerability will remove the possibility of an affair.

Dr. Harley says most affairs are about unmet needs. I think they are also about ineffective communication skills on the part of the WS, an inability to effectively communicate their dissatisfaction within the marriage.

I am never a blame-shifter. I have accepted full responsibility for my choice to engage in an EA, and have apologized profusely for making that choice. It was wrong, no matter what my circumstances. I am working on my communication skills, working on not "losing my voice" when I discuss matters of importance with my often times overbearing H. :-)

But he has also (finally!) begun working on improving aspects of his behavior that led to the marital discord in our relationship. He knows that things were so bad that I almost left him. He is no longer burying his head in the sand thinking he had nothing to do with my unhappiness.

During one of our MC sessions a couple of months back, my H spat at me about "breaking my vows"….our MC shot back at him, "well, didn't you break your vows, too? Didn't you promise to honor and cherish her? Can you honestly tell me you have done that? This "problem" is not just about her. It is about you, too. Are you going to spend the rest of your life blaming her or are you going to help rebuild what you both tore down?"

One of my books points out that an affair can either be a death knell, or it can be the "nuclear explosion" that an extremely unhealthy relationship needed in order to evolve into something more.

The experts are all so careful in their phrasing…ie, "the WS needs to take reponsibility for choosing to have the affair, and the BS needs to take responsibility for what they did to contribute to the marital dissatifaction leading up to the affair."

Like I said in my previous post, it's all about semantics...

Des,

I understand where you are coming from as a FWW in an unhealthy marriage. This forum has helped tremendously. I have learned about Passive Aggressiveness and being the "Giver" in our relationship to earn love (which doesn't work.)

However, I also know that even the worst marriage deserves fidelity. You have to accept the fact that you and I did the ultimate wrong. Tell me if I'm wrong here. Because I'm the first person to offer support for the FWW. You get kicked for so long when you reveal the A, that you don't think you can ever survive. And, I don't want to kick! But, read what I said about dealing with the garbage. You have to be willing to deal with your garbage first and then as your BH starts healing, you can offer support for the clean up work that he needs to do.

No semantics --- everyone has garbage, but all WS that I have met have had a lot.

Please keep reading and talking. Believe me it helps turn the corner to recovery.

lilmom

Lil,

I am in no way saying that my H deserved my EA. As you stated, even the worst marriage deserves fidelity. I am not arguing that point in even the smallest way. What I am saying, however, is that both the WS and the BS need to take a long hard look at themselves and figure out what they did to contribute the sorry state of their marriage.

From Intimacy After Infidelity...

"Of course, the flip-side of your partner working on him/herself is that you have to meet him/her halfway. You have to own and work on your weaknesses and examine how you contributed to the problems in the relationship that helped create the fertile ground for infidelity. We are not saying that you are responsible for the infidelity; that was your partner's choice. But infidelities don't come out of nowhere. Invariably there are factors in a relationship that lead to one partner betraying the other. You have to be willing to examine your part and be willing to work on being a better partner, the best partner you can be."

From After the Affair..

"I don't separate the two of you into victim and victimizer, betrayed and betrayer. Each of you must accept an appropriate share of responsibility for what went wrong. Rather than assign blame, I encourage each of you to confront those parts of yourself that led to the affair, and to change in ways that rebuild trust and intimacy. that doesn't mean I hold you equally accountable for the affair-no one can make another person stray. But I do ask you both to be accountable for the distress that contributed to the affair."

The affair is a bad choice, a choice made by the WS and the WS alone. But to say that the BS's pre-A behavior/negligence/whatever had nothing to do with the WS eventually making that bad choice is like burying your head in the sand. While I can agree that A's sometimes happen in good marriages, most of the time they happen in bad ones. Why is that?


Des