Lack of morals and integrity. A lot of people can "talk" a good game..but when push comes to shove they don't do the right thing. IMHO, that is why affairs happen. Heck, that is why a lot of very bad things happen. Some people just flat out refuse to put themselves in positions where their values would be compromised. The temptations are the same... but there is an obstacle that stops them from going through with the affair. It is called integrity.
The match theory really doesn't work for me since the BS is only ONE victim of an A. People ruin the lives of their children and families without concern...did their children contribute anything that made the A possible? I would say not. Yet the A will always hurt a child... not just the spouse.
I see it as a totally selfish and immature act by a person that is showing little or no regard for anyone around them... spouse, child or the OP's family. Everyone of those things would be an obstacle to prevent me from having an A... no matter the circumstances with my spouse. I could NEVER hurt another person (the OPS) that way, I could never hurt my children that way and I could NEVER hurt myself that way.
This site mentions that anyone could have an affair... but as I have said in the past.. I do not think that is even remotely true. For some the obstacles, morality, integrity and an unwillingness to hurt someone else this way... would NEVER allow it.
For those that have allowed this to creep into their lives, I applaud them for making the changes in their lives to become a whole person again.... and to make those around them once again "matter."



The marriage is deemed as "bad" by the offending spouse who needs to find someone else to blamne for their actions. Typical of someone that would do something like this in the first place.

Well that is the problem with A logic.

What did the BS do to lead to the deterioration of the M that made the A a possibility.

There are no absolutes here.

Lets say the A was a ONS. Two people happily married, one goes away on business gets drunk ends up in bed with someone.

They feel absolutely horrible after the A, there is NC they just temporarily had a lapse in moral judgement?

What if the WS likes the newness of an R. So there is nothing that can constantly create newness. I am not talking about romance or anything like that. Before I met my FWW I didn't like being with one woman for very long.

What about the pure taker who feels entitled to everything even an A.

So to make the blanket statment that the BS has to take their part in the deterioration of the M that created the opportunitiy or environment can be offending.

After IC and MC the conclusion was reached is that based on the environment in our M it is a miracle I wasn't the WS and she wasn't the BS. But I didn't feel entitled to everything and she did.

My part in it is I didn't stand up for myself and I kept trying to give to keep her happy, to the point where if I didn't give her what she wanted I was the bad guy.

Now my M is better for me because I can take some too but should I have had to be betrayed to get my FWW to appreciate me?

exactly right!

Des,

If the M is bad enough to leave, then leave it. (Choice)

If it is good enough to save, then save it. (Choice)

If it is not quite good enough the way it is, then fix it (remember, a M is half/half you fix your half and the whole gets better) (Choice)

My M isn't good enough, I'll break my vows and have an affair.(Choice)

If falling in love with someone else is purely magic and something I can do nothing about, I have no choice and cannot help myself. If it is not so magical and I am not helpless to resist it, I do have a choice and must make that choice myself. It is not possible to affair proof a marriage. I can only do what I have to do to keep myself from letting it happen to me. And my S must make the same choices.

I didn't cross the line because I knew where the line was. It wasn't that I never had opportunity and it wasn't that my side of the M was perfect, because I considered ending it myself, but I didn't cross the line, because I knew where it was and refused to go there.


Almost every WS has had a laundry list of what was wrong and what was missing before the affair. The propblem I have is that the list always comes up after the affair. The fact of the matter is that there is always something that can be better and always something that is missing from even the best of marriages. Neither partner is completely fulfilled in the M. That isn't the purpose of marriage.

The choices are the same for both.

If I need to be the perfect husband in order for my W to remain faithful, I need to run to divorce court right now! As I see it, the reasons given are too often nothing more than excuses after the fact.

In the case of an abusive spouse. Divorce the bum.

In the case of a neglectful spouse. Leave if you can't get through.

Stay and be married or leave and get divorced. (Choice)
Make THAT decision. If it is "stay," then do not cheat.

In no case is it Right or JUST to choose to unilaterally void the vows of marriage and have an affair. It matters to God enough to make his top ten list of things He demands. It should matter to each of us.

Mark

Not only that but the WS had the opportunity to hone that list. Where as the BS if given the time and the correct mental state could challenge the validity of some of the things or Come up with their own list.

The WS just needs this list to make the A seem like a resonable choice.

frog,

Quote: "the BS if given the time and the correct mental state could challenge the validity of some of the things or Come up with their own list.

The WS just needs this list to make the A seem like a resonable choice. "

Exactly my point.

Mark

[color:"red"]lilmom [/color]



this .... [color:"red"] R A W K S[/color]

Pep

Trigirls,

I hope you're okay. I find it interesting that this thread just keeps rolling along, beating the dead horse that it's 100% the WS choice to have an affair... LONG after you acknowledged that fact... and clarified what you were really asking in the first place. Meanwhile, your last post stating that you had taken an emotional nosedive has gone ignored. Geeze! Again, I hope you're okay. I think you've asked a very valid question here.

That said..

I just can resist mentioning that THIS...




...CRACKS ME UP!

Frog, I understand where you're coming from. I have no trouble believing that some people are so emotionally and spiritually bankrupt that they would likely cheat no matter who they're married to or how they are treated by their spouse.

What I find freakin' hilarious, though...

Is that you, MEDC, would chime in to agree that it's insulting to make such a blanket statment about BS's.... when your post right above his is FULL of assumptions/generalizations/and sweeping statements about WS's. Bwaaaa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!

The good 'old double standard. Love it!

Still chuckling,
--SC

Hey Cookie ... I've missed ya!

Hope all is well in Cookie-land <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Pep

Just setting the thread straight ... Des took this thread deeper into 'everyone gets part of the blame' territory.

Trigirls,
I hope you are hearing in this discussion the 'stall' that the blame game plays in recovery. I did it too (and, this forum helped me stop.) I think it is part of the WS road to recovery ...discovering why. Why you could throw away your morals? Family? Marriage? Like was told to me ... every BS has a long list of reasons/triggers/wounds that make them personally weak for an A. What do you think now? Are you starting to get it? The BS can't take responsibility for any problems in the marriage, until you take all of the responsibility for the A. Then they can start working on their garbage.

Also .... just a note for the thread...
I agree that there are a lot of people out there that would NEVER have an A. So, what makes the WW or BW different. I think they are wounded people.

Des,
Girl ... you gotta listen to this. Do you want to save your marriage? I think you do or you wouldn't be here. You can find 100 different books that say your BH should take some responsibility for the state of your M ... but they are not saying that you had the right to wound your BH and kids with an A. I said it before and I'm saying it again. When I understood that I had 'emotionally raped' my H - I realized that all of his 'neglect of our marriage' was not even a spec in comparison to what I had done. Kinda makes you stop the blame game. Then when you stop reciting your laundry list, really understand the pain that you caused, then...your BS can start believing that this will never happen again.

Keep listening and talking to the forum until you get the clarity. I agree that it seems at the beginning that FWW and FWH and BS on this site don't give an inch to excuses or reasons ... but they understand what pain an A really causes...they get it. Read my thread under mental problems and you will see where I was. Now I can say that my BH and I are definately on the road to recovery. We are going for a marriage that is "Richer, Fuller and Deeper" than ever before!!!! You can have this to...You can do this!

lilmom

Just saw Cookies' signature line.

"I try to be good. It doesn't come naturally." I think I need a t-shirt like that with a scripture about saved by grace. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

lilmom
FWW -39
Recovery H -38
M - 17 years
2 kids -16 & 9
18 months since D day!
THANKFUL TO GOD in RECOVERY!

You are so friggin smart huh? My point was and is that WS have NO standards at all. None... not a one... they are morally bankrupt... now when they stop being wayward and reclaim their integrity... as I said, I will applaud them. But an active WS has not an ounce of integrity in their body.

Sorry - don't agree. They have some (very, very little), otherwise some would not pull away on their own.

lilmom

SC,

I don't understand where you are coming from?

My statment was pure and simple. Not every single A was caused or occured in a damaged M. Not EVERY BS has a part in the Deterioration.

Therefore to say as a blanket statment they need to take their part offends me.

Medc agreed.

How are those blanket statements?

There is never a never and never an always. Unless you say there is never an always. LOL.

My point is that if an M is/was bad then the BS needs to step back and see their part.

IMVHO I believe this is to make the BS understand that they are not perfect either.

But if taken out of context the WS/FWS uses it for ammo against the BS.

lilmom, wounded (damaged/broken) is the best way I can describe it.

I'm not sure why but reading today's posts makes me feel like warmed over sh*t today. Sometimes I read through threads and see the vehemence, anger and bitterness aimed at waywards and I hate that I'm in that category. I've taken it all in, knowing I and other waywards deserve every bit of it. Yeah, so I'm "reformed" does that put my back into my prior-A category. No, I'm still a rung or two lower than the rest of the faithful.

I did not start out life as a morally bankrupt person. I didn't get married as a morally bankrupt person. Most of my life, save those few months I was wayward, I had very high moral standards. I might as well have been a psycopathic adulterer from day one for all the good it did me. Because that's how so many will view and define us always.

WW, FWW...whatever, I might as well wear a scarlet letter.
Why does it feel like the sum total of who I am can be defined by the period of time I was a WW. Discounting the years and years prior that I "thought" I was basically a decent person. The worst thing I've ever done is all of what defines me. I hate it. I think, what if people around me knew, they just think I'm so perfect but I'm just a fake!

sorry for the vent...

I can relate to you MOM. Being a FWH I always feel like I have to defend myself. It's also very tough not to feel like a hypocrite to my FWW.It's rough. (sorry to TJ)

I don't think FWS are a rung lower in any way. Not even one bit. WS... yes... FWS, I have told many here how proud I was of them for the work they have done to fix themselves and their families.

I can certainly understand that. I've often thought about what if my DH had a revenge affair or something like that, or possibly something in his past that I know nothing about. (I'm paranoid that way...). Would I even have the right to be upset about it?

I wouldn't use the word defend though. There's no defense for having an A (I don't think that's what you meant anyway). Some people are just completely amoral from the get go and no matter how perfect their spouse was they would've strayed, sure. But that's not me, I'm guessing not you either. There's no defense, but certainly there are factors that contributed to an environment where I was more vulnerable to making bad choices.

It sucks to have to carry the label forever. Even if it's not an actual scarlet letter on the outside, WE KNOW IT'S THERE. It's on the inside of us, forever.

Apologies to the original poster for going a little OT...

You are not alone. (((((((((A-Z))))))))))) Venting is sometimes necessary!

You know what? I arrived here in 1999, as a recently Wayward trying to recover my marriage. I had been a BS in the marriage, in fact, several times, but you know what? It often *feels like* there is NOTHING worse in the world than a woman who has cheated.

A man who cheats is a dog, a cad, or some other "boys will be boys" term... but a woman?... she's a s1ut, a wh0re, a skank... and I have been called all of those things, by my ex and some people on this site... back in the day, I mean. (My infidelity lasted for several months back in early 1999.)

Like you, it does NOT define me.

And also like you, I was an upstanding, moral, loving wife and mother... until I wasn't. And since then I've worked like h3ll to gain back my self-respect and honour. It's been a VERY tough road, because for me, I made a lot of life-changing choices during my withdrawl and subsequent healing...

Anyway, just wanted to chime in... and say... I made the most horrible choice once, back in 1999, and I regret that. But I am not the same person now. I wasn't he same person before. I snapped, I reacted, I have suffered for my choices during that time.

And now, I heal. Another choice. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I wasn't pointing to anyone in particular. Reading the posts today was kind of a "straw that broke the camel's back" in terms of what I have been feeling all along when I read comments about waywards from BS's. I'm certainly not saying any BS doesn't have a right to feel the way they do. We were horrible, we did something truly awful and really, justifiably unforgiveable (we're fortunate that we do get forgiven).

That's what causes me such anguish. That I did that. That's me (the former wayward me) they're talking about. I don't think I'll ever feel "clean" again.

Don't laugh...but, it's not you...it's me.