LilSis-
I think that I agree with you, I should go to plan b soon. I think that I am going to wait until after Wed. He is picking up the kids after work again. I had to call him today to tell him that I did not have to go aways for a week in May, so he did not have to take his vacation then to take care of the girls. It was actually a blessing for BOTH of us. He was happy, then he started to tell me about how his day was terrible, he is so on edge....I just listened. Someone beeped in from work, and he abruptly said, "look I have to go." I said bye, he hung up. He actually CALLED ME BACK. I did not expect that at all. He even asked how my work went today (I had a big thing going on) I told him it went great, and then my phone started ringing, and he got all weird. "I hear your phone ringing, I will let you go..." He was fine until then. Oh well...

What is great for me is that I FEEL GOOD. I finally feel good, and I feel like I can have fun again. When I went out with some of my friends this weekend, I was talking to this one guy that is friends with my friend, and we got along well, and I actually FOUND MYSELF FLIRTING!!! Which is amazing to me, because I was so loyal to my H, I NEVER would do that, I did not want to give anyone the wrong idea... Not that I am looking for anyone, but it was fun, and the guy was receptive, so I felt good.

My sense of humor is returning, and I find reasons to laugh everyday again. You are right, it IS like a grieving process. Right now I feel like I am getting out of it. I HOPE, HOPE, HOPE, it lasts!

I was laughing to my friend about when I see my DWH on Wed. I should have my wedding rings on. Just to freak him out. When I see him next, I should have on my wedding rings, and the wedding veil that I wore... and if he were to ask why, I would innocently say, "Oh, I just felt like wearing them." It would be devilish to do... but it makes me laugh, just to even THINK about how uncomfortable that he would be ...LOL! Of course, I would not do it....:-)

Good luck to you too, it is SO HARD sometimes. I have read a lot of your thread also, and it is similar to me. I know though, that I will have that flicker of hope for a long time to come... I sometimes wish that I was not wired that way.

On the plan b letter, I don't know. It may be me, but I think that it is kind of weird to send someone a letter in which you tell them all of those things, and the conditions that they must meet to have contact with you, when the other person has basically said that they do not want you at all... am I strange for feeling this way? I am just curious....

No, you are not weird for feeling that way. For me, it was as much about setting my OWN boundary. If I say I'm going to do something, commit to it in writing, I will do it. If I said in my PBL that I was going dark, I would be dark and stick to it. No PBL would open me up to being wishy-washy.

For me, the PBL was putting everything out there, my heart, my feelings, my hurt, and setting the conditions for him once he chooses (if he chooses) to begin making "right" choices instead of irresponsible and hurtful ones.

Yeah...I felt the same way...how stupid. They guy already filed for D. What a joke...me telling HIM what he needs to do to come back. HA! I imagined WH and RT having a huge laugh about it.

But I had to do it for me, too, almost like the beginning of closure. I've been standing here in the door, calling to him, yelling at him, enticing him to come back...wearing myself out. The PBL was me shutting the door and going back inside to tend to myself. The door is closed, the shades are drawn...I can't see him or hear him. The door is NOT locked...not yet. If he wants to open it, he can, but to come back in the house he has to do these particular things...

Maybe you don't feel the same need for some kind of closure or "drawing the line" that I did. I was doing such an intense Plan A and was really on the emotional edge that I needed to apply the brakes really hard, screeching to a stop, to make it around that corner to get to Plan B.

I don't get the sense you are in the same emotional turmoil that I was in before Plan B. You are more settled, more calm.

Anyway, get everything in order.

I'm glad you had a good weekend, and how fun to get to flirt!! Nothing wrong with a little harmless ego-boosting!

It is a FANTASTIC book

I had gotten the book a while back, and I thought that it has some good ideas. The thing is, my WH found the book, and told me something along the lines of, "I see that you spent all of this money on how to save your M books, trust me, you are wasting your time." Around that time, some of them mysteriously disappeared.

Pep- Why do you like the book?

LilSis-
Actually right now I am more settled. A while back I tried to do an intense Withdrawal from him. I read this book, I think called "are you an obsessive Lover?' and I realized, oops, yes I am! I was COMPLETELY and totally obsessed. With the whys, the why nots, etc. I was driving everyone around me to drink from my obsessive H monologues. (not really, but ALMOST!) I started to have anxiety attacks. I finally decided, enough is enough! Do I really think that he is sitting at home going through the same thing? OF COURSE NOT! What am I doing??? I read the book, and you basically give yourself 2 weeks to try to get rid of obsessive thoughts. You have NO contact with them (I had to have SOME contact, since we have kids, but I did not call him) and by the last day you ceremoniously say good-bye using imagery or burn letters or something. Then you 'start over', in a more healthy way. It helped me. In order to not call him, I put notes on my phone that said, "if he wanted to talk to you, he would call." I did a few more things like that. It REALLY helped me a lot. Plus... I went on anti-anxiety meds. They seem to help too. :-)
It is hard sometimes, esp. with the kids, if they are not behaving, or there is some problem, it is hard to not be able to rely on him anymore. That has been almost the hardest for me. But I had to learn the hard way that I could NOT rely on him to help me out. And that was the hardest thing for me.

Good luck lilsis! I am rooting for you!

Sadmo:
Yep, I agree. WHs cannot be relied upon as parents. They are totally selfish and self-absorbed, so it is a mistake to assume that they will put the kids before themselves. If they cared more about the kids than they did themselves, they never would have engaged in this behavior in the first place.

That has been, for me, probably the most difficult thing to get my head around. How can you do this to your children, your own flesh and blood, these little boys who depend upon you for their very survival, who will grow up to be MEN...and YOU are their role model?

I just can't understand. Never will.

I screamed at the kids last night...I let them stay up a little late because they were watching a movie, with the understanding that they would go directly to bed as soon as it was over. Well, of course they ended up arguing and fighting while they were supposed to be brushing their teeth. I just lost it.

Just FYI...I've been able to be totally dark...absolutely NO CONTACT, even with the kids. I set out all the conditions for kid exchange in the PBL, and the one time he needed to communicate, he used the intermediary.

I'm glad you had the "closure" in your own way. It sounds like it was very helpful to you, but I'd still suggest going very dark.

For what it's worth...

Good luck!
LS

Argh. Today my DD does not want to listen at all. When she was with her grandparents yesterday, she would not listen. So I put her in a time out, and told her that she had to be quiet or she would not be able to play outside. She started talking back. I told her that now her timeout was starting over, and she was not going to play outside. So her reply? "That is fine, when I see Daddy I will be able to play with T, and she will come over and spend all day with me!!!!" T is the D of one of his new 'friends' that he takes the girls on 'playdates' with. So I told her that she is not going to go outside. She then started saying how she wants to be with Daddy, Daddy is more fun, she gets to play with other kids (I take her around other kids too!). I told her that her timeout was starting over.

But it brings me back to my aggravation... he is off meeting new people, doing new things, seemingly having the time of his life, being a social butterfly, and using the kids now to help him with this.

And I can't help but think to myself, why didn't he ever want to do those things with me? Why did he not ever seem to want to do 'playdates' or anything when he was still here? He did not do anything social with me, and it still hurts me. When we used to hang out with other people (pre-kids) we always had fun together. After the kids, he felt that we should only do things 'as a family'. Now he is off doing things with other people, with the kids, not as a family, and it kind of makes me sad.

Sigh.

It is actually kind of silly. My sister was watching the kids for me while I worked today, and my DWH (LOL!) called to tell the kids goodnight. He said to my sister, "Do you have a job yet? What are you doing to further your life?" My sister was upset... One because she has been having a lot of problems with depression lately, and she actually has not been working, and two, because he knows this, and they used to be friends, and he is upsetting her!

I told her to not answer the phone if she sees him calling, or have the girls answer.

What is weird is that he seems JEALOUS of her. He keeps asking me who is paying for her apartment, how she is making ends meet... I keep telling him it is none of his concern. But she is very fragile right now, why would he pressure her? Her biggest joy is her nieces, and she is good with them. He has told me that he is 'concerned' when she is watching them. She is very good with them. It bothers me that he is trying to act like I have no concern over my kids. He keeps asking who is helping my sister-He has asked me several times, and I told him that my parents are helping her. He is mad at her because she would not watch the kids for him over the weekend. So now he has to make her feel bad. How PA of him! That is fine with me, I am able to deal with it a lot better, but my sister? Leave her alone!

I talked to one of his friends. He said that my WH does not call him much anymore, he does not know what is going on with him, he just knows that he is different. He said that he tried to talk to my WH about exposing the kids to his new 'friends' and my WH got mad at him.

It actually made me smile because this guy was on my WH side the whole time, UNTIL he heard that he was bringing the girls around these other 'white trash women' (his words not mine!) then he felt like, Whoa, maybe my WH is not acting in the best interest of everyone. So that was kind of nice. To be validated in that way.

Let the WH have all of his "new" friends, and his ONE loser friend that hangs out with them! I just cannot wait to see these friendships fail... I know one of the women, and it is only a matter of time, she has a 'friend of half the year' all of the time. I am sure that his wall will crumble soon...

I am thinking of when I see him tomorrow. Should I try to put on a wonderful face for him, and for the next few times I see him, THEN go to plan b? I am feeling good still, and now is the time!

Sadmo...I am late getting going this morning, but I just had to tell you--AGAIN--that I could have written what you wrote.

My sister is also in a vulnerable spot, and WH seems to think that he's so squeaky clean that she would still be open to a relationship with him. This summer, I was visiting with another sister out of town, I called WH...he closes with, "Tell B and her H and the girls I said hi."

I laughed out loud. "Do you honestly think that they are interested?"

WH: Well, what's going on with us doesn't have anything to do with them.

How clueless can they be?

And the friends thing....that's been my big thing lately, too.

Gotta run. Hang in there. Sorry to hear about DD's little outburst. I can tell you are a strong woman. I'm rooting for you.

Arghhh. I guess that when my DWH called to tell the girls goodnight, he told my older one that "he was going to pick her up after he got off of work, and they were going to go and play with T!"

This is all my DD is talking about!!! It upsets me that he is always bringing them around this other woman and her D, of course he is claiming that it is innocent... But the fact that my D is always talking about T gets to me sometimes....

How should I handle my stress level with that? I know that she is just a kid, and that she is thrilled with this little girl, but she also talks about how 'nice' this girls mom is to her, and it stresses me out. I TRY (so hard!) not to react, but it is hard when she has a tantrum, and she tells me that she wants to go with Daddy to T's house, and HE WILL TAKE HER THERE!

I have been feeling so good, and now I am feeling stressed about it. Any advice?

I don't know. All of a sudden I am feeling like I should be plan A'ing my WH. Should I? Or is now the time to go into a Plan B?

Today he came and picked up the kids, it was beautiful out. I was going to take the dogs for a walk after he left, and I started to get them ready he asked me what I was doing, I told him. So I asked him if he wanted to go with me, we could take the kids. He said he would like that. I was really in an upbeat, happy mood. We walked for a long time, talked about things (nothing serious), and it was actually nice.

We got back to the house, and he was kind of lingering a little, talking about work, I talked with him, he asked me what he should do with a situation, I asked him what he had done, and he told me. I told him I thought that he had handled it well. He seemed pleased. My older D had to go to the bathroom, and I went to let her in the house, and he said to me, "Thanks, I had a nice time". He looked sad. They left.

When he dropped off the kids, he asked me if he still was on my insurance (he knows that he is!) he has a tooth he needs to get taken care of. I then, for whatever reason, started rummaging around for his old medicine that he had used last time he had this problem, and I gave it to him, along with some other stuff that I thought would help him. I just hate to see him in pain, or anyone for that matter! He just was looking at me. He told me thanks. He then said, "did you get your hair done, it looks really nice. You look nice." (I had not, it was one of those magical 'good hair days!') I said thanks. He then said, "I hate to go, but I feel terrible, I will call you tomorrow." He kissed the girls goodbye, and was leaving, then came back in, and hugged me. I hugged him back. He whispered, "thanks again, be good, stay out of trouble". I do not know what the 'be good, stay out of trouble' means, but I will go with the thanks....

So, I know that he has a habit of being nice, then not being nice. So, as a last ditch effort on my part, should I try to plan a him? At least for a little more? I am not feeling anger towards him lately. I was thinking of just trying to be nice, not asking him out or anything, or calling him, but being a positive presence when he is around. He actually seems kind of sad lately.

Or, should I Plan B him now, while his fence seems to be crumbling a little (he is not talking to one of his main friends, he is having financial difficulties).

My natural instinct is to help, and I do not think that I should be helping him at all, if he is not wanting to be with me... but it has been so hard for me to stop!

If anyone has any suggestions, I would appreciate them!
Thanks!!!

Sadmo,

Sounds like you had a very good exchange. At this point if it were me I would continue with plan A.

He noticed things about you, that's great. Many of us BS's right now would kill for that type of interaction.

You did great keep up the good job.... stay in plan A.

Still

Well, I have decided that I am going to plan A him for now. I have thought, and prayed about it, and it feels right.

My question is, since he does not live with me, how do I go about doing it? Since he enjoys being single so much, how could I possibly compete, or not even compete, how can I make our home, me, and the kids, appealing to him again?

His lease is up at the begining of July (I think), and I have decided that I will put off any major decisions (like filing for a D) until then.

I have been working at eliminating all LB's that I can, I just do not know what to do to leave a pleasant impression on him, in the few exchanges that we have.
Does anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks!

Well, I fear that answers to questions are answered in odd ways. I just posted my last message, was really feeling good about my decision, and my WH's brother calls me. He wants to tell me that he talked to my WH (who has been avoiding him) and what they talked about.

I felt like I was going to have a stroke! He was SO SERIOUS. So he basically tells me that they had 2 conversations, the first one he basically asked my WH when he was going to get his head out of his a** and either file for a D, or work things out with my. My WH got annoyed with him, and informed him that "We are both happy with this arrangement, so why change it?" I assume by WE, he meant me and my WH. So his brother said that he knew that me and the girls were not happy, and my WH basically said that he was happy, and he was sorry if we weren't. So then he got off the phone.

Apparently my BIL called him yesterday, and asked him more things. What are you doing? What are you going to do to make things better, do you plan on doing anything, what about the kids, etc. My WH's response? "I am paying CS, the kids are well taken care of, I can give my W that, and EVERYONE IS FINE, so get off of my back." So his brother tried to tell him that paying CS is not the same as being reponsible towards your kids. My WH cut him off AGAIN with the, "we are all ok with this arrangement, it is none of your business, so stay out of it."

My BIL is now angry with my WH. He says that my WH is acting like a selfish 17 year old, who thinks the world revolves around him. My BIL is upset about his cavalier attitude towards it all. He feels that my WH does not want to file for a D, or work on anything, because he is happy now, and the fear of the unknown- if he were to get divorced, and lose his safety net- is what is stopping him. He said that he did not get the feeling at all that my WH felt like anything should be different, or that he should do anything different. He said that my WH upset him with his attitude about the kids too- that they will be fine with a dad that comes and goes. I told him that there was nothing that could be done, it is my WH that would want to change his tune, and he does not want to.

Now I am thinking that I would be foolish to do a plan A, since his brother called me. And the irony is that I REALLY thought long and hard about it... and this just seems like a sign, and I should pay attention to it. I don't know. I am confused.

Sadmo, I just quickly browsed your thread and think your situation calls for Plan B. Your H is having his cake and eating it too. He has no motivation AT ALL to stop his single swinging lifestyle and apparently believes he is entitled to adultery. Much more of a front row seat to this abuse and your marriage will be destroyed when you grow to hate him. Plan B will benefit both of you, IMO.

I don't know if you have a legal seperation in place, but I would get that all set up to arrange visitation and finances. You would want to execute the darkest of Plan B's and find a good intermediary and probably change the locks.

I agree with Mel, Sadmo.

You've had REALLY good interactions recently, but you are starting to feel some anger (natural in Plan A). Perfect time to Plan B. Better for you to hold on to those good interactins and go into a Plan B...than to risk a Plan FU.

Get things in order and get the PBL done. All of that takes a while so have it at the ready. Don't change the locks until you check with a lawyer. Even after WH filed for D, I could not change the locks until a court order granted me sole custody of the home.

I don't think anything BIL said was unexpected. Sounds pretty much like script.

Good luck...hang in there.

Am I weird, but I am AFRAID to go to plan B... I am feeling pretty much in a good place now, but I am afraid that if I go to plan b, I will again ruin any chances for us. I do not know why... Plus, for whatever reason I feel sad to think that I would have no more contact with my WH.

Am I having a lot of contact with him now? No. Is he beating down my door? No. Is he calling to talk to me? No, not really. Is he trying to spend time with me? No. So what am I hanging onto?? I am hanging onto these little exchanges that really amount to nothing.

I KNOW that I will not move on unless we are Divorced. I KNOW that I will be in limbo unless I go to plan B, or file for a D......

So what am I so afraid of? I am afraid of missing any of the scraps that he throws my way? How did I come to this, it drives me crazy.

For example today, he comes over to get the kids so I can work. He looks terrible (abssesed tooth) and he said something about not feeling good, not having eaten. I asked him if he would like me to make some toast, and a cup of coffee for him. Again, not really thinking. I had the toaster out, coffee was made. He said yes. So I gave it to him, and he apologized for being late (the funny thing is, he was EARLY, but did not realize it). So when he dropped the kids off, he lingered about, and told me thanks for this morning, he felt a little better. I told him that it was fine. He then said that if I needed him to watch the kids earlier or anything tomorrow, he would, since he was late today (it just cracks me up, he was NOT late LOL!). He then chatted about the kids, and hugged me goodbye. He looked sad when he left.

The thing is, that I do tend to overthink the situation. He is probably thinking (not that I know!) "whew! She was in a good mood today, thank the lord!" And I am thinking, "He was nice, maybe he is having second thoughts...." Grrr. I annoy myself with that! Everything with him, since we started having major problems, has been a guessing game with him. I should have known this or that (his words), and I would tell him that I did not know this or that, he never said it... So I am still caught in the circle, which is a bummer, I thought I was getting a little out of it.

Anyway, I do not think I am ready to give up on the fantasy-land M that I keep hoping that we will have if we reconcile. Why? I don't know. sigh.

And I do not even really feel angry at him anymore. I was more upset about his brother calling me and telling me those things. What upset me is that I had pushed it out of my mind, how selfish he has been, that it reminded me. And it got me stressed out. It was upsetting to have his own brother vehemently tell me that I should D his brother, his brother is too selfish, etc.....

Orchid: Why? Plan B will give you relief. But you can't enter plan B and obtain that relief until your mind and heart are in sync.

Now let's take a look at your 'fears'. You are afraid of ruining chances? Really? With who? The WS or your H?

You s/b wanting to ruin chances with the Ws. The WS is toxic for your family.


Orchid: Why? Do you really know what it means to move forward?


Orchid: You like scraps? You need an attitude adjustment.
A good MC or better yet, give Steve H a call.


Orchid: Yes. That is many a BS does. You are not alone but it doesn't make it right or the healthy path to choose. You up to working on getting out of that rut? Use your energies into something productive?



Orchid: Hm... your choice. The WS will hold you hostage in that position for life. Is that what you want?



Orchid: You s/b upset. The fact that you are not is showing you are giving up. That's not good. Your BIL is on your side. Tell him you appreciate him validating your info and that you appreciate his candid comments. It is his honesty that is helping you.

L.

I am afraid of ruining my chances with the H, which I KNOW is ridiculous, yet, I am afraid of it. What I was trying to say is that I KNOW this, yet I do not know why I am not acting on it yet. And why I am afraid of the unknown. I have been doing fine without much of his help or anything for a while now, so why am I so afraid? I don't know....



No, I DO NOT like scraps, and that is what is annoying me about MYSELF... that I am sitting here, waiting for scraps (whether I want to admit it or not <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />) As far as moving forward, it kind of makes me sad too. Sad that the life I envisioned is not a reality... sad that it is over. I think that I know what it is to move forward, and what is kind of stopping me is that for me to move forward, means to do something BIG (plan B, file for a D or LS) and it makes me hesitant to do it, it is kind of like saying goodbye to the dream. Silly, isn't it? But I really think that is what is stopping me.



Is it really helping me? I know that I am in a rut with this whole 'waiting game'. I really thought that I would have been different throughout this whole thing, a lot stronger, less needy, less sad. I am kind of surprised that I reacted this way.

Is it bad for a BS to give up? I think that you are right. I am giving up, and accepting how it is. Do I want to? No. But I have invested a lot of my energy into other things, and it is starting to not matter as much to me if the M survives. That was my total focus at one time- I HAVE TO MAKE IT WORK! My focus has changed to taking care of me, and my day to day life with kids, work, pets, the house. I think that I have put it on the backburner a lot, so that I do not get upset, kind of like, "out of sight, out of mind". I do not want to give up, yet, I feel like I have no choice, if I want to not get disappointed again, and again.

I kind of think what upset me the most from my BIL was the fact that he said that my WH told him on 2 different occasions that WE were ok with the situation. And I got to thinking, "does he REALLY think that I am ok with this????" That, and the fact that he told me that my BH just did not seem to care. It kind of hurt to hear that.

I am just kind of feeling down about the whole thing, and I was feeling a little positive about our interactions. So positive that I was unwilling to do anything to stop them.