Hi all,

Can no longer edit/update title on my old thread, so I'm starting a new one. A link to my sitch here.

In a nutshell, WS had PA with lesbian co-worker in Nov 06. I found out, agreed to let her leave her job, then found a few weeks later they were rekindling the A again. Exposed to their management, her parents, my parents and her friends and left the company. Went into Plan A, not very good at it, I admit cause I kept wanting to talk about R and M. She took 3 weeks break by going back to her mother's place out of the city came back ~1 week ago and said she wanted to move out and have space to think if she wanted the M. Says she has had NC with OW since Feb, except for one time last week OW dropped by her new office to talk to her colleague. They all chatted together.

Last nite I came home and she had bought boxes for moving. Said she'd stay over for a month or so at a friend's place. We both agreed that there be NC between us once she moves out. I don't have a good plan A down, but am forced to move into plan B. She won't consider her decision, and I think at this point she's buying time with this story of staying out for a month with a friend so she and a friend (not OW) can look for a new apartment together, after which she'll move out for good.

Question, does anyone see any hope for my M at this point? I don't know her anymore, she says she's moving because she dreads coming home every day and facing me. She's so full or resentment for me at this point, and the lies have just about killed off my love for her and my hope of making this work out -which she says she's not even willing to give a try now.

I strongly suspect she still has contact with OW, I had asked her many times if she had NC since Feb, and all the time she has said yes, NC since Feb. Then last night she told me that OW came to the office and they all talked. Whatever.

Any advice or 2x4's for me? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Personally I would go with the Dobson "Love Must Be Tough" plan -

Only those who have been rejected by a beloved spouse can fully comprehend the tidal wave of pain that crashes into one's life when a relationship ends. Nothing else matters. There are no consoling thoughts. The future is without interest or hope. Emotions swing wildly from despair to acceptance and back again. Nothing in human experience can compare with the agony of knowing that the person to whom you pledged eternal devotion has betrayed your trust and is now involved in sexual intimacies with a "stranger". . . a competitor . . . a more beautiful or handsome playmate. Death itself would be easier to tolerate than being tossed aside like an old shoe.
If one word must be selected to describe the entire experience, it would be something equivalent to panic. Just as a drowning person exhausts himself or herself in a desperate attempt to grasp anything that floats, a rejected partner typically tries to grab and hold the one who is leaving. This panic then leads to appeasement, which destroys what is left of the marriage.
Let's look for a moment at the other half of the relationship — focusing on the individual who wants out of the marriage. What secrets lie deep within the mind of the woman who has an affair with her boss, or the man who chases the office flirt? Surprising to some, the desire for sex is not the primary motivator in such situations. Something much more basic is operating below the surface.
Long before any decision is made to "fool around" or walk out on a partner, a fundamental change has begun to occur in the relationship. Many books on this subject lay the blame on the failure to communicate, but I disagree. The inability to talk to one another is a symptom of a deeper problem, but it is not the cause itself. The critical element is the way a husband or wife begins to devalue the other and their lives together. It is a subtle thing at first, often occurring without either partner being aware of the slippage. But as time passes, one individual begins to feel trapped in a relationship with someone he or she no longer respects.
Now we begin to see why groveling, crying and pleading by a panic-stricken partner tend to drive the claustrophobic partner even farther away. The more he or she struggles to gain a measure of freedom (or even secure a little breathing room), the more desperately the rejected spouse attempts to hang on.
Perhaps it is now apparent where the present line of reasoning is leading us. If there is hope for dying marriages, and I certainly believe there is, then it is likely to be found in the reconstruction of respect between warring husbands and wives. That requires the vulnerable spouse to open the cage door and let the trapped partner out! All the techniques of containment must end immediately, including manipulative grief, anger, guilt and appeasement. Begging, pleading, crying, hand-wringing and playing the role of the doormat are equally destructive. There may be a time and place for strong feelings to be expressed, and there may be an occasion for quiet tolerance. But these responses must not be used as persuasive devices to hold the drifting partner against his or her will.
To the reader who is desperately in need of this advice, please pay close attention at this point: I'm sure you would not have dreamed of using these coercive methods to convince your husband or wife to marry you during your dating days. You had to lure, attract, charm and encourage him or her. This subtle game of courtship had to take place one delicate step at a time. Obviously, it would not have been successful if you had wept violently and hung on the neck of your lover saying, "I think I'll die if you don't marry me! My entire life amounts to nothing without you. Please! Oh, please, don't turn me down," etc.
Coercing and manipulating a potential marriage partner is like high-pressure tactics by a used car salesman. What do you think he would accomplish by telling a potential customer through his tears, "Oh, please, buy this car! I need the money so badly and I've only had two sales so far this week. If you turn me down, I think I'll go straight out and kill myself!"
This is a ridiculous analogy, of course, but there is applicability to it. When one has fallen in love with an eligible partner, he attempts to "sell himself" to the other. But like the salesman, he must not deprive the buyer of free choice in the matter. Instead, he must convince the customer that the purchase is in his own interest. If a person would not buy an automobile to ease the pain of a salesman, how much more unlikely is he to devote his entire being to someone he doesn't love, simply for benevolent reasons? None of us is that unselfish. Ideally, we are permitted by God to select only one person in the course of a lifetime, and few are willing to squander that one shot on someone we merely pity! In fact, it is very difficult to love another person romantically and pity him or her at the same time.
If begging and pleading are ineffective methods of attracting a member of the opposite sex during the dating days, why do victims of bad marriages use the same groveling techniques to hold a drifting spouse? They only increase the depth of disrespect by the one who is escaping. Instead, they should convey their own version of the following message when the time is right: "John [or Diane], I've been through some very tough moments since you decided to leave, as you know. My love for you is so profound that I just couldn't face the possibility of life without you. To a person like me, who expected to marry only once and to remain committed for life, it is a severe shock to see our relationship begin to unravel. Nevertheless, I have done some intense soul-searching, and I now realize that I have been attempting to hold you against your will. That simply can't be done. As I reflect on our courtship and early years together, I'm reminded that you married me of your own free choice. I did not blackmail you or twist your arm or offer you a bribe. It was a decision you made without pressure from me. Now you say you want out of the marriage, and obviously, I have to let you go. I'm aware that I can no more force you to stay today than I could have made you marry me in 1989 [or whenever]. You are free to go. If you never call me again, then I will accept your decision. I admit that this entire experience has been painful, but I'm going to make it. The Lord has been with me thus far and He'll go with me in the future. You and I had some wonderful times together, John. You were my first real love and I'll never forget the memories that we shared. I will pray for you and trust that God will guide you in the years ahead."
Slowly, unbelievably, the trapped spouse witnesses the cage door vibrate just a bit, and then start to rise. He can't believe it. This person to whom he has felt bound hand and foot for years has now set him free! It isn't necessary to fight off her advances — her grasping hands — any more.
"But there must be a catch," he thinks. "It's too good to be true. Talk is cheap. This is just another trick to win me back. In a week or two she'll be crying on the phone again, begging me to come home. She's really weak, you know, and she'll crack under pressure."
It is my strongest recommendation that you, the rejected person, prove your partner wrong in this expectation. Let him marvel at your self-control in coming weeks. Only the passage of time will convince him that you are serious — that he is actually free. He may even test you during this period by expressions of great hostility or insult, or by flirtation with others. But one thing is certain: He will be watching for signs of weakness or strength. The vestiges of respect hang in the balance.
If the more vulnerable spouse passes the initial test and convinces the partner that his freedom is secure, some interesting changes begin to occur in their relationship. Please understand that every situation is unique and I am merely describing typical reactions, but these developments are extremely common in families I have seen. Most of the exceptions represent variations on the same theme. Three distinct consequences can be anticipated when a previously "grabby" lover begins to let go of the cool spouse:
1. The trapped partner no longer feels it necessary to fight off the other, and their relationship improves. It is not that the love affair is rekindled, necessarily, but the strain between the two partners is often eased.
2. As the cool spouse begins to feel free again, the question he has been asking himself changes. After wondering for weeks or months, "How can I get out of this mess?" he now asks, "Do I really want to go?" Just knowing that he can have his way often makes him less anxious to achieve it. Sometimes it turns him around 180 degrees and brings him back home!
3. The third change occurs not in the mind of the cool spouse but in the mind of the vulnerable one. Incredibly, he or she feels better — somehow more in control of the situation. There is no greater agony than journeying through a vale of tears, waiting in vain for the phone to ring or for a miracle to occur. Instead, the person has begun to respect himself or herself and to receive small evidences of respect in return. Even though it is difficult to let go once and for all, there are ample rewards for doing so. One of those advantages involves the feeling that he or she has a plan — a program — a definite course of action to follow. That is infinitely more comfortable than experiencing the utter despair of powerlessness that the victim felt before. And little by little, the healing process begins.

Hi believer,

Thank you... an incredible article! Yes, I think I have begun to let go, though I am filled with moments of uncertainty at times.

Going to read and re-read that again...

This isn't really an MB plan, but I don't see that you have a choice. I vote to let her go. Open the cage door.

A lot of times, this works. And you are till very early in this. I know it doesn't feel like it. But chances are very good that she will be back.

Concentrate on taking care of yourself. It feels awful now, but I promise you that you will be happy again, with her or without her.

Hi believer,

Yes, I know that I can do nothing to stop her if leaving is what she wants. In the same way, having the A was her choice, and so is any continuing contact with OW: I can do nothing about her choices. Its hard to admit that, but it also sets me free, to see that the decisions made to end this marriage comes fully from her.

Instead of doing a deep-dark plan B, I'm going to simply tell her that she's free to go, and do whatever she thinks is right. Its hard for me, but there's no point to talking and arguing every day -I want us both to be happy and no point in me holding her against her will, nor can I.

While she's bunking over at her friend's place for the month, she's free to come and go, I won't change the locks or take away her keys. She can still keep her stuff in the house until she finds a place of her own where she can move all her stuff out... do you guys see this as 'enabling' her affair or further contact with OW, if its indeed still ongoing? Or should I change the locks, and tell her if she needs anything that she's forgotten, to call me and arrange a time to come pick it up when I'm around? We've decided that there is to be minimal contact between us at least until end April, after which we will sit down and talk again.

I don't know if she's still in contact with OW, but would it change things if I knew she were? I think that's the stumbling block for me, not knowing abuot the NC, or whether she STILL lying to me about OW. Any insights?

Spoke to WS just now. I asked her if there was any way or anything that would make her change her mind about her moving out, or if I agree to give her space and not talk about R or M, would she reconsider? She thought and said, no, she still wants to move out to think about the situation.

I said, OK, its your choice and I respect that. If your mind is made up, I pray God will help you make the right choices and that I would not try to change her mind, because its solely her choice and I can only control my own action and thoughts, not hers.

I said just as it was her decision to leave, and her decision to get involved with OW, it was also my decision to NOT be part of a 3-way marriage, and it was my decision NOT to have to put up with dishonesty in the marriage. She nodded and agreed with me and said if only I'd realized this sooner. I asked would that have changed anything? And she said, no, she would still decide to move out because she really wanted to make a decision free from any influence.

I also told her that I would change the locks, as I wasn't comfortable with someone who doesn't live here having the keys. She was kinda angry and incredulous, and said fine, and agreed to give m a call when she wanted to drop by to collect something. I said it was not meant to try and start a fight, but I just didn't like the idea of someone who doesn't live in the house having free access when I'm not around.

I then kissed her goodnight and left.

I will not help carry her bags to the car, or to help her in any way during the move as I don't want to participate in helping her move out. Any opinions?

Devastated,

It's uncanny that Believer brought up Dobson's love must be tough. Yesterday I had coffee with a woman who is going through this, the only difference is her WH has been chesting on since they were married from the 2 year mark on. This time he has been out of the house for the same amount of time my Wh has been gone (sept 06).

She heard my story and said I should read Dobsons... told her I have. She said the only hope she sees for me is to use the technique of telling him he is free. That the more I try to plead with him (which I have stupidly been doing on occassion and saying we could work this out) the further he wants to get away from me.

Not really a TJ but Believer if you're reading this what do you think of this if the D is already in process?

Devasteated I also had a problem changing my title this morning. Wanted to change it because I had an anxiety causing dream last night.

I'm thinking of you and just know you will still go through some up and downs. I hope you are stronger than I have been. Although I am feeling stronger the last couple of days.

Still

Hey still,

I wouldn't have made it so far and this well if not for MB and you guys... {{{{big hug!!}}}}

Strangely enough, I had a strange dream the other night also. I dreamt I was in an empty city, nobody around, in the midst of a great flood. I was sitting up on a high floor and someone told me to go look for my WS, who was lost somewhere in the flood. So I waded through the streets looking for her. Can't remember anything after that, but thinking back, was that a sign that I shouldn't give up and continue 'looking' for my W? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, I told her she is free to decide her own fate, and I felt at peace with myself because I freed myself from thinking that I had to control her, to bring her back to this marriage.. I now know its all up to her at this point, and I've tried my best whatever the outcome.

You all will be in my prayers tonight, that you may 'find' your lost spouse and rebuild your marriages again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Dev,


Thanks I really could use prayers... and maybe a miracle here or there.

I think you're doing the best thing by giving her freedom to decide.
I'll keep you in my prayers also when I go to bed later (it's still afternoon here)

Still

WS's birthday is coming up.. 31st March.. she would have moved out by then and probably has plans already with "the girls" I'm sure. Just thinking of whether I should get her anything... she got me an expensive gift for my b'day in November 06, and I feel I should get her something.

Thing is, should I? We would not be in contact (shouldn't be anyway) by then, yet this may be the last gift I give to her so I feel like it should be special. I liked the idea of a photoalbum of the times we were happy, saying stuff like 'thanks for the memories' and leaving the last few pages blank saying I hope we can a chance fill out that album with more happy photographs in the future. Any opinions?

Today we were more civil, I cooked breakfast and we made some small talk, no mention of R or M. She just went out with her friends and I realized her birthday was coming up.

Why would you want to buy any present for a WS? How would the WS consider it? Some WS' have felt guity, others mad and accused the BS of being manipulative, etc. Not sure how yours will react but don't be surprised if it isn't appreciated.

Still do what your heart tells you to do because your healing depends on you doing what is right for you. Give her the present if you feel you need to but don't be surprised if she doesn't appreciate it. You will be hurt. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

JMHO,
L.

Then get her something.


You know, if you want to make an impression, why don't you buy a gift that is really "for her" as in something you know that she would like to have in the present tense. Your idea of an album is nice for a couple not in the place you two are in. It's undoubtably going to be viewed as a manipulative gift (another opportunity you're giving yourself to plead your case) and you're using her birthday as the excuse. I mean, let's face it, it's a pretty transparent "look at us!" gift -- especially the part about making happy memories in the future. She keeps asking you and asking you and asking you to quit with the relationship pressure and now you're considering giving her a birthday gift of ... what... more pressure? (why does that even make sense to you?)

My opinion is this: Get her a gift if you're motivated to do so. If you get her a gift -- make it a gift free of manipulation or pressure. If you can't bring yourself to do that, skip it. Using her birthday as an opportunity to get more leverage is going to make her feel even worse (more negative) about your relationship and it's not something she's going to forget soon. Find something 'out of the blue' that you know she loves and just give it to her to make her happy. (not to make her think, not to remind her of you, not to .... )

Make it about her not about your relationship. (otherwise it's just one more indication that you just can't STOP yourself from pressuring her.... )

Mys

Roger, thank you both for that. I realize I still need to re-tune my brain to think differently... i've already said I'd let her make up her own mind etc.. and yet I still thought I could 'pressure' her by giving her a gift that is meant to make her feel guilty etc. What was I thinking??! You're right, I've let her go at some point.. even *I* don't believe me when I said i won't talk about the R or M...lol..

I will think of a gift she will like, yet will send no "I want you back" mesages.. gosh, this will be hard..

LOL. That is pretty funny, if you think about it.


Think of something non-romantic (no jewelry, etc). Does she have any hobbies or collect something? If she has a hobby and you don't know what specific things she likes, a gift certificate to a specialty store is nice. Or, if she likes shoes or purses, she might like a gift certificate to the name brand store that stocks her brands so she can go pick them out.

Books or music or movies are nice if she collects those.

A spa day certificate is also a great way to say "take care of/pamper" yourself. This might be your best idea since she keeps saying she's "stressed out" and this would show that you've heard her and acknowledge her stress.

Does she have a favorite food? I once ordered some very expensive german beer for my H that you can only get through mail order because it is his favorite (can't buy it locally).

You're doing fine, really. At least you post before you run headlong off the cliff. *grin*

Mys

Hey mys,

Heh, I had a good chuckle about it to myself after I typed that. BS's are also in a fog, but the fog of denial, at least I am.. or was. On one hand I want to let her go, on the other I still don't believe its over, she'll "snap out of it" and we can have it all back... there's'a fantasy relationship for you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Good idea with the spa vouchers.. she loves spas...though to this day I'm not sure how many spa packages she's signed on for already.. lol

When it comes to this, I've learned to listen to the experts out there who've seen this a hundred times. I've already run myself into more than a few walls and didn't enjoy the consequences <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, after I told her I was letting her go, no pressure at all on her one way or the other, its strange, but the hostility that was there only a few days ago is no longer there, or at least not so apparent. We're joking again with each other, she even came to the bedroom and woke me up this morning with a kiss to the forehead... where did that come from?! And she said she'd be back for dinner tonight, which is weird considering she was coming home as late as possible last week to "avoid" me. She says she's moving out on Thursday, cause her friend is going to be tied up with work till Wednesday. I just shrugged my shoulders and said "Okie dokie"

DEv,

Just remember no R talk. You are doing good.

I think a spa package for her B-day would be a great gift.

Still

Hey still,

Just looked and there seems to be a nice package I can get for her.

However, I'm waiting a few more days when her phone records come in, I wanna check if she's still calling up OW. I made her call up the phone company to activate the itemized billing last month and she's probably forgotten about that, so its as good an indication as any I'm likely to get on her NC status. Even if they meet up, they still to call each other to confirm time and place etc, so her records will probably show. If I find out she's still lying about contact with OW, then I doubt I'd want to blow $300+ on her anyway <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Dev,

I would wait also... I hope you find that there was no contact except for the one call.

My B-day comes the week before my WH so if he gets me something I'll get him something. Although I'm not holding my breath <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Still

Hi still,

Yes I hope not to find and calls at all. Assuming I do, should I remain in contact wtih her through the withdrawal, call or text her to ask her how she is, or should I just cut off all communication with her, ala plan B until she is ready to talk and tell me her decision one way or another?

Cause I'm trying to plan A now in whatever little way I can without trying to show that I'm attempting to cling on to her or influence her to stay. I don't know how to proceed after she leaves. Any advise for me guys?

Dev,

I think you'll need to play that by ear. If you still feel you can plan A then that's what I would recommend.

I think you will know when you're ready to go into plan B.

At times I am gung ho with Plan B... then I think is there more I can do in Plan A. I'm just trying not to come off needy right now. Haven't brought up relationship talk in over a week <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

All I know is that it is coming real soon....

When does the bill come in?

Still