Hello Dev...happy Easter!

Now down to business.

Glad to see you giving some consideration to the posts the last few days.

I deliberately did NOT draw a line connecting your bad behavior to her affair...and yes I did have a better than average ability to predict that you would draw it yourself and resist it.

See...I see the affair as a result of your wifes OWN poor habits, boundary enforcements, and life coping skills. I don't connect that to you at all.

On the other hand...the behavior we discuss is not likely to maintain that "in love" feeling because it is so unattractive.

If you did it on a first date you wouldn't have a second and I'm sure you know that.

We all have them Dev...every person in the world has a whole bag of tricks we learned to try and manipulate our circumstances...so this is not in the slightest an attempt to single you out as a very naughty abusor but rather bring to your attention the long term repercussions to some beliefs you have [entitlements] which I personally think need challenging.

As for writing your WW a letter admitting to being an abusor...you'd have to be out of your frelling mind imo. Pearls before swine and all.

Never show weakness to a WS...they can smell blood you know.

If and when your wife has defogged adequately to be receptive...that would be the time.

Now ideally you would have been able to do this sort of work in plan A..but as we have touched on...your plan a sucked monkey butt...and Myschae drew a lovely connection for you THERE which I think bears having another look at.

You follwed your feelings around like a puppy dog because you don't know how NOT to...so you HAD no plan A or otherwise. You were incapable of creating or committing to a plan...all of your reactions were ENTIRELY subject to your feelings at the time. You followed them up, down, zigging, zagging, grasping, and struggling and all to no avail.

You are a slave to your feelings. So you can have some empathy with your wife because you can see that weakness in yourself.

She is also acting from her feelings and JUST LIKE YOU she is failing to give due consideration to anything that does not appeal to her feelings.

If you genuinely see the folly there you are at the beginning place of your journey.

For months you have asked for help and ignored what was offered because it did not support what your feelings told you to do. We said..become eductaed and make a plan..focus on your plan A and let go of everything else.

But you couldn't because you couldn't take your eyes off of your obsession with what she was doing, digging, and trying to manipulate.

This cost you dearly...it cost you the ability to execute a good plan A.

Now that time is over and yes...you DID miss out on a lot of opportunities and YES those opportunities have gone away...if you TRY to do them now they will probably work against you.

Failing plan A puts you in position to likewise fail at plan B...since you could not focus on filling the love bank and continued making withdrawls..you now have no contact with someone who is very withdrawn and NOT nursing good memories or feelings about you.

The sense that I get here is that you just could not discipline yourself to focus on TODAY this minute and what you need to do this minute. Instead I see you trying to step over today and scramble ahead..unfortunately...and this is important...when you look ahead please realize that what you are looking at is a FANTASY...because nothing you are doing TODAY is laying the tracks for tomorrows goal to be realised and worse you are missing your opportunities in your life for dreams.

So there is another thing you can empathise with her about...the tendancy to turn to FANTASY when confronted with a reality you are uncomfortable with.

Having considered this I really think the BEST thing you can do at this point is to turn your focus to yourself.

OK..let's all be very clear...your wife is actively having an affair.

Now you know. So you shouldn't be checking her emails anymore. There is nothing more you need to know about her activities. At this point it more closely resembles unhealthy and obsessive behavior than fact finding. Yet you will feel a huge drive to do it. You will feel withdrawl. You will WANT to see what she is doing...to continue to be the voyeur...to feel connected...to not be left behind...to feel justified...fill in the blank.

Still more empathy because guess what sunshine...if you CAN'T make a DECISION and a CHOICE to do what is healthy because it is healthy and not because it feels good...how can you expect that she will be able to either?

So much to learn and it is a painfull...but also exciting and liberating experience. You will know yourself better and realise how little of your identity was fully fleshed out while you hid in shadows and masks and illusions.

You will fail sometimes, you will give in to temptation..chalk it up to humility and climb back on the horse.

You can be a great spouse if you are willing to do the personal work and people who have done that work are very attractive and confident.

Hey noodle, please go post almost the same message to VS if you think it warranted. I am NOT getting through to him. As always, you say it better than I do.

Larry

It depends on what "enforcing these boundaries" means to you, Dev.

Go back and read what Larry said. He said "Go, Stay, or Go be with the OM. Figure out what you want to do -- here's what I'm going to do."

He didn't say "You'd better... you only have one more chance.... look at me, I'm walking away.... "

He threw up his hands and said this is what's going to happen in case 1, 2, or 3. Period.


Are you?

Then you better be equally prepared for her to pick either option and to do exactly what you said you were going to do in each case. I'm sure Larry was credible because his wife believed that he'd completely cut her out of his life swiftly and regardless of her tears, recriminations, bad feelings, anger, objections, positive signs, cajoling, bargaining, etc.

Forget about what your WIFE believes. Do you believe you can do that at this point?

Because, let me tell you, if you can't do it, then you better not say it. The only thing that will happen if you grandstand about this and can't follow through is that it's going to take 100 times more effort for her to ever respect you again (if that's even possible).

So, tell the truth. If you're ready, able, and willing to walk away then toss down that gauntlet, roll your dice and take your chances. But, if you can't walk that walk -- then you'd best keep that talk to yourself.


Where I'm going with this is not throwing yourself on your sword and telling her that you "understand" that you were a bad husband or feeding her lines about you being an abuser because 1.) she's not listening and 2.) she doesn't need the ammunition.

Where I'm going with this is you simply adding in a line that you're seeking IC (or whatever you're doing) to address your issues with control because you think you need to do it (right now, present tense, regardless of whether or not she comes back). Where I'm going with this is you standing up and calling your own behavior out of bounds and addressing it - you don't need her permission, acceptance, return, acknowledgement, validation or anything else to make that decision for yourself.

This is the ultimate moving on with or without her because you deciding not to do this stuff anymore has nothing to do with whether she comes back, leaves, or takes a slow boat to China.

Take your cue from Larry. This is what YOU'VE decided to do. Period. You're telling her as a courtesy because you are still married and your core value is honestly and openness. Meanwhile, if the marriage is going to continue you need not just lip service but concrete accountability from her and to her.

So, one more time. What exactly does "I won't be part of a 3 way marriage" as a boundary mean in terms of action?

Does it mean you're going to file for divorce?

Does it mean you're going to cut off all communication with her for life (you don't have kids so...)

Does it mean you're going to suffer dramatically in her presence and make yourself harder to ignore?

Does it mean you're going to seek revenge?

Does it mean you're going to be "friends" with her but you'll never forgive her for what she did?

Does it mean you're going to write recriminating emails to her?

Does it mean you're going to cut off contact with her completely for a period of time so that you stop loosing your love for her and allowing her to hurt you by continuing to lie to you and flaunt her affair and you'll only re-establish contact after certain, specific conditions are met? (And left unstated but understood by you after too much time has passed without her agreeing to your conditions - ie. you're ready to do some other things on this list like file for divorce - you'll do that when you've decided it's time to do it and you're really ready for it)

You say you won't be part of a 3 way marriage but what are you actually going to DO?

Larry figured out what he was going to DO then he told his wife. Think of boundaries as making you 100% predictable. She should know exactly what to expect from you because you were so clear about what you were going to do that there's no doubt in her mind that x follows y.

Think of a boundary as being like gravity. If you jump off a cliff you know exactly what to expect. It happens every time. Gravity doesn't give you another chance to make sure that you really meant to do it. Gravity doesn't care if you're sorry later. It doesn't care if you had plans later that day. It doesn't care if you think it's being unreasonable. Gravity simply conveys your mass towards the bottom of the cliff at 9.8 meters per second squared.

The one thing you've lacked in this whole process is any semblance of consistency.

Mys

Oh, and one more thing, since it seems she's still in the middle of an active affair (no big surprise but what a disappointment) the chance of her being able to work on the relationship is exactly nil. It ain't gonna happen.

I honestly don't know what to tell you about exposure. Some people would say to expose because that's your best chance to end the affair and there's no chance for the marriage until the affair ends. I don't know how well that plays out if you do that while you're in Plan B or right before you go into Plan B. So, I think if you want to expose then you might need to rethink going into Plan B so that you're at least still engaged in the relationship (but I could be wrong about that).

It seems to me as though lots of people don't know about the affair still so maybe the public exposure would bring enough pressure on the affair to end it. My concern, though, is that if the pressure ends the affair and you're in a dark Plan B (as you should be) then .... what? Mixing and matching just doesn't work very well.

I think you need to pick one game plan - go dark into Plan B (assume the affair is still ongoing). Or, stay in Plan A and expose and try to kill the affair as best you can.

I sorta think Plan B is your best option ...

Mys

Thanks all for the reply... I'm still too angry and somewhat in a quandry as to what to do. Let me think about what *I* want to do before I post again.

My mum and sisters are coming down to stay for a few days later in the week. Maybe I'll get their opinions on whether I should file for divorce or not... sigh..

After taking much of the day to digest your words and to listen to my own feelings, I have more or less come to a decision. The outcome of this decision is certain, though the path leading to it may vary.

This is my plan:

1. I shall write her a plan B letter, telling her that I KNOW about the ongoing affair and that it really hurts me to know that she is back together with the lesbian. (This puts us on a level playing field so we both know exactly where we stand.)

2. I will tell her I want her to move out all her stuff by end April from my apartment, after which any remaining items will be discarded/given to charity etc. I will explain that this is not get any form of revenge, but to allow myself to start the healing process for ME.

3. After she removes her stuff, I want to have total NC with her, because continued contact with her hurts me and I don't want to completely lose my love for her.

4. I shall only consider re-establishing contact with her again IF she agrees to the 3 conditions I stipulated before (commitment, honesty and fidelity). AND makes a plan to have continued NC with the lesbian. However short of killing her, its unlikely, as I doubt WS would jump jobs again quite so soon, for whatever reason.

5. This is the unsaid part. I will wait for a minimum of 3 months after NC is established (until August 2007) whereupon I shall file for divorce and have the papers served to her (probably at her office, since I don't think she'll give me her new address). Of course, this is assuming she doesn't file FIRST in that 3 months. The 3 months is only an estimated figure, I will file when I think I am ready to do it, and will not do it out of anger or let my emotions lead me like a puppy dog anymore.

And YES, I have decided. Enough is enough. As it is, I think I'll have a VERY hard time accepting her back if she were to come back right NOW. I cannot and will not take more lies, nor stay married to a woman who lies, cheat and deceives with every word she utters.

Please give me your opinions. And yes, 2x4's are WELCOME. I have learned so much from you guys, and I may not be the best student, but I do take your words very seriously.

Well, just saw a reply from OW on WS's email yesterday... more 'Hi dear's and some advice for my WS to bring more warm clothing to LA cause "I don't want you to fall sick"...Awwwww... how sweet <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, to some who has said that I'm obsessing over the emails and that I should stop, I'm still going through them to get more evidence of the A to be used during any divorce proceedings. Right now I squat on her A, cause it was a confession by her to me, no black and white. I've read about how nasty WS's can be in divorce proceedings, totally going against their word and trying to make life even more difficult for the BS.. well, I'm just preparing myself in case I need to show proof of the affair.

Ok, popping in but can't stay because major, major, major exams this week (so if you see me on here tell me to get back to work, ok?) BUT...

somewhere in all that Plan B stuff is there marriage counseling (preferably w/the Harleys?) If not, put it in.

Mys

[qutoe]4. I shall only consider re-establishing contact with her again IF she agrees to the 3 conditions I stipulated before (commitment, honesty and fidelity). AND makes a plan to have continued NC with the lesbian. However short of killing her, its unlikely, as I doubt WS would jump jobs again quite so soon, for whatever reason.[/quote]

No threats. Just boundaries. Tell her that you have put boundaries in your life so you can continue to respect yourself and move on to a better life. I think it is ok for you to tell her that you still love her, or actually love who you thought she was before she went off the deep end in your opinion.

Larry

dev...I am crazy busy at work to day but wanted to check in and offer this
(((((((((dev))))))))))

I think you are doing well....formulating a plan is good...I like what you have laid out...I cannot comment on the "to divorce or not" question because in my sitch it does not apply (I am the not legally married lesbian). but I will anyway:)

I would offer this analogy......if you slam a door really hard...it doesn't always stay closed....it kind of bounces back a bit and stays sitting ajar. if you close it slowly and purposefully and ensure that it is closed it will stay that way. I see you divorcing now as a slam of the door....you may not get the closure you are expecting....but if you wait until you are clear from the drama, closure may come easier at a time when you are calm.

IMHO, you seem to be looking for a quick fix to your pain...and a clear way to protect yourself from further hurt. so in your mindset a Divorce means "get away from WW and stay away." you can do that with plan B...and then when you are a bit more centered filing for divorce would be a purposeful decision and you will be able to REALLY move onto the next chapter in your life...if you so chose.
I see you filing now as a REACTION to all that pain and suffering...a REACTION full of hurt and emotion and pain. now may not be the best time to make a LIFE ALTERING decision when you are in such an emotional crisis.

this is not about giving her another chance to hurt you...its about taking time for yourself to process what you are going through and take care of yourself. plan B will remove you from the love triangle and let you focus on yourself...but you need to direct your mind and heart to do so...and that will take time and purposeful effort. it is not easy...as I have said before it is a self imposed limbo...you have to chose it...and that is even harder because WW doesn't deserve the consideration. but your Wife may still be underneath there in some form.

just some thoughts to chew on <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

lean on your family, its great to have that support around you now, more than ever. hang in there.

Why don't you re-expose to all those people that your WW didn't want you to expose to as well as her mother? I think that would pretty much make those group lunches uncomfortable. She'll get over it.

Hi mys,

MC was always on the cards... but she quit and didn't want to go after the first session. Can't afford the Harleys, especially since we don't live in the US. My MC does read and know about the Harley's though, so best thing for now.

Oh, and GO STUDY! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

OK thanks.

Hi FB,

Thanks for the support, could really use some right now! I agree with you about the divorce out of anger and emotions part, and that is why I have chosen to plan B for at least 3 months, or however long it will take me to find myself first before I do it, nothing at all to do with having false hopes for her.

At this stage, all I can feel for WS is anger and gosh.. maybe even a little hatred for who she has become. Don't get me wrong, I still LOVE my W, just not this monster-like WS she's become (no offence to monsters <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

I will not file now because it would be a only a REACTION and not a well thought-out, carefully considered decision, so thanks. Of course, I will also not stop her if she files before I do.

Hi Jim,

That was my question a few posts back, and I'm still undecided on this one. One one hand, yes it would have her seeing her friends more uncomfortable, could even sabotage some of her friendships for those who frown openly on these kinds of things, on the other hand, she could use this against me and say "See? He's being vindictive and is spreading lies about me!"

About her mother, since we don't live in the same area, I intend to tell her when I go back to my mother's place next month and pack up WS's stuff from my house and return them to her mom's place. But I doubt it will be of any use -her mum has chosen to pull the proverbial wool over her eyes. Though she was a BS for 20 years, she believes that her precious daughter can break away from the affair just because she had promised me mum to do so <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I was considering a mass email thing to WS's friends, some family and colleagues (both current and former). Not sure how this is going to help because we are in plan B/D and I'm no longer around for her to fall back on. It would be nice as a revenge to throw a spanner into the relationship, but would it serve any purpose?

It would serve to end her affair more quickly if you have any hope of saving your M, but you would need to make that clear when you exposed.

Hi Jim,

Thanks for continuing to offer your help... I think many people have just about given up hope on me!

This are just my thoughts and I would like more opinions before I plan to do another exposure or not. I know that these may sound like the usual BS 'excuse' for NOT exposing, but after doing it the first time, I think I'm in a better position to evaluate whether to do it a second time. Though I admid my first time was hardly a "tsunami of truth" more like a little stream <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

1. She is still immensely PO'ed over the first round, and kept saying that she should have walked out after I did it the first time. I think most of the resentment she feels is because of the exposure and that she had to leave a job she loves. I'm quite sure a second round would be viewed as purely vindictive and would end ALL possibilities of reconcilliation.

2. Some of her best friends are not in my book, 'best friend' material. To me, a best friend is one who can tell me "Get your head out of your [censored] and LOOK at what you're doing!". A best friend should not fear that she will offend or hurt their friends with some honesty because they are genuinely interested in your welfare. Her 2 closest friends to date have taken on the "Do whatever you feel is right, and what you'll be happy with" which is a cop out to say, "you're an adult, go make your own decisions and leave me out of this!" Where I'm going with this is that the few closest friends KNOW about the A, and I'm sure the one she's staying with now definitely has to suspect unless she's real dense, yet do nothing. They will still 'support' her in the end.

3. My mind is not in the right place at the moment. If I did do a mass mailing, it would be purely to get back at them, revenge, sweet and simple. I don't FEEL like I want to reconcile and I can see you shaking your head, but I'll need to wait a while and see if this is where I wanna go. Cause whatever I feel invariably gets across in my emails, and you guys can all see that. My exposure wouln't be effective anyway.

Right now I wanna sit quietly a while, give them more rope to hang themselves with while I watch from the sidelines and decide what *I* want to do, and not how I'm going to REACT. Makes sense?

My opinion on second round of exposure...

Pros: Exposure is exposure. It serves to bring the affair into reality regardless of when it is done.

Cons: Exposure is meant to be a part of plan A not plan B for several reasons. One is the love bank issue..can't meet ENs from plan B or you are not doing it properly. One is that in plan B you are supposed to be giving the WS what they say they want...which is you out of their life...but giving it in the way they don't want it...which is to still be in control of YOU or able to influence you and most of all for you to validate their choices by being their "friend".

So...things to consider. This is why I don't really recommend limited exposure...I like a single mortal blow much better. Exposure is not meant to trickle...not..let's try this one and see how bad she blows up and then I'll decide if I'm too scared to go further.

No matter what your intention for doing it is she will hate it and probably resent you for it. That's just the way it goes...you are telling the world what she believes she has the right to keep secret.


Personally I don't see much point to more exposure as she has now surrounded herself with people who support her affair...this would be one of those missed plan A opportunities we discussed that has in my opinion lost it's momentum.

What I really think..and again more personal opinion ...is that this one will probably just have to play itself out.

She isn't cake eating...she has left. She is exposed, has lost a job over it and still pursues it.

She isn't going to even CONSIDER changing her mind until and unless her current situation fails her and burns her.

I think she is chasing a fantasy...she thinks she has found nirvana.

I think the best thing for you to do at this point is to just really immerse yourself in plan B and focus on your own issues and do whatever it takes to stop looking for the magic key to the outcome of her returning...get your fingers out of her pot...and spend some time with dev because I think you are losing yourself here.

I know you have said that you are keeping up with the email for divorce purposes...but I think that's an excuse.

I'm sure that there is someone else who could do it for you...gather the relevent info and NOT be personally affected.

I don't seem to recall you having a lawyer yet even...so it isn't as though you were doing it on a lawyers advice and direction with regard to what exactly to look for and document...just flying blind.

I'm also pretty sure you could hire a PI to document and it wouldn't take very long for something as incriminating as even photo evidence.

My point here is...you can see your losses in failing plan A...don't make the same mistake in plan B.

Study plan B and examine what exactly you are doing because you seem every bit as preoccupied with her her her her what's she doing/thinking/hiding/what will she do next as you have been since the moment you arrived.

What do you need to do TODAY to have a good plan B day. What can you do to remove yourself from her triangle and still get your evidence?

Keep your eyes on the ball and your thoughts in the present...you want so badly to look into the future that you are missing your chances to make good choices today.

dev.........I think this is a good choice...!!!!

Yes I agree with you. I had my chance and I blew it



Also agree here. The thing is, she doesn't 'see' it as she lost the job because of the A, but because of a vengeful husband who sabotaged her career... go figure


NOBODY on MB will disagree with you here <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


OK, I agree mostly with what you're saying about the need to immerse myself in ME and that I'm losing myself in all of this. I do need to take a step back from this eventually and rediscover myself. However, I think I gave up looking for that "magic key to... her returning"... the moment I saw that email that confirmed she was still actively in the A despite everything that has happened. I have lost the will to fight for her.


My reasons are as stated before, for divorce purposes because I have no evidence of the A should it turn ugly in court. However, you are also right that I am "every bit as preoccupied with her her her her what's she doing/thinking/hiding/what will she do next as you have been since the moment you arrived".


Nope, nobody comes to mind. And she checks her emails at weird times of the day, and is in the habit of deleting them. Nobody has a vested interest in this more than I do, so asking someone else to do this will not work.


OK this is more complicated. We live in a close by neighboring country. We registered out marriage back in our hometowns (about 5 hours drive away). So I would have to get a lawyer back home to do any divorce proceedings. While we could probably do it here, it would cost a lot more, and the women's protection laws are very biased towards women here (not a bad thing in most cases, just not as good for me).

I will have to consult with the lawyer when I make my next trip home in May and get the lowdown on what I will need to do.


As much as I want to, I can't afford one. As it is, I'm getting by with paying rental and bills on my own from when we used to split almost all expenses.


Thanks for the great advise. I know I will need to eventually stop reading her emails, to let go completely of her so that she doesn't affect me anymore. Right now, however, those emails proving her guilt and lies are what keeps me strong. I was feeling alone and really sad and even texted her asking if she wanted to come home and get some stuff for her US trip (which she refused), just so I could see her again. This was BEFORE I saw the email proving that she is continuing to lie to me. After that, I had renewed strength to NOT let her affect me like that again. Anger is bad, anger is wrong, but I'm using my anger to help carry me forward at the moment.