[color:"blue"] [/color] Thank you so much for this post! I told my WS a week ago that he needed to "find himself" and we would have no physical contact as long as he was still seing the OW. I am in the military and can only go home once a month so when I go home he will go away and not return until I leave. I can't stop the tears and my heart is so broken. I started thinking about calling him, I was weakining, but after reading your post, I am stronger. My brain tells me I am doing the right thing, I just wish my heart could become stone. The OW is 20-years younger and has 2 sons (eldest has ADHD/ADD). My husband wants to find out if he can deal with the eldest child. If he truly loved this woman, he would be willing to take the chance. I never thought my husband could be so selfish; I have lost respect for him. My marriage is very important to me and I have decided to be patient with him. He has not asked for a divorce and I feel that as long as there is a chance, we have to try. If in the end I walk away, I will know that I gave it my all.

Hi TWBD, glad you found something helpful from the thread.

Bump... guys please help me with above questions and plan, thank you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Wow, just saw WS's phone bill... lots of calls while she was in the US... her bill was $700+ this month, and most of it was to OW, or roaming charges FROM OW. Maybe I should tell her management?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I was just wondering what my chances of success is going to be that if I do what I have to do well, expose, plan a/b... what are the chances that she will end the A and agree to come home? 5%??

Today I met a nice, sweet woman and had a really nice conversation with her. She stays really close by to my apartment (within walking distance), we're from the same country, and I actually enjoyed talking to her.

Don't worry, I'm not going after her, nor am I in a fog. Just wanted to say that its nice after living this way to finally meet and talk to someone attractive who reciprocates the attention etc. Plus, I'd also signed up for my scuba diving course, and am planning my diving holiday for mid-May also and meeting up new people from a party I went for the other day.

So I start thinking sometimes: What exactly am I fighting to save? Am I willing to go back to that kind of life -wondering at night who my wife is with, or where she's been? Wondering if she's still lying to me or seeing the OW?

I now know and understand the importance of the plan B before the BS's LB is drained dry, mine almost is. I hope the little that remains can carry me through to do the exposure and subsequent things I need to do right, for this is the last chance, I know.

Well, the timetable has been pushed forward. She's going to come tonight to get her stuff instead of Sunday. Since I have not heard from any of you guys, I'll just proceed according to that I'd planned earlier.

1. Let her have whatever she wants, no point arguing over material stuff. I'd like to think our marriage was worth more than that at least. Try to be nice, but show that I'm moving on also. Serious, but not angry, resentful etc.

2. Tomorrow I'll send out the letter to OW's parents. Should reach them the day after.

3. Day after I'll send out the exposure email as planned to WS's friends.

4. Treat any calls that come in threatening whatever as "I'm doing this to save my marriage" etc.

5. At some point send her the plan B, love letter email, then go dark and move on with my life. If she comes back and is willing to meet my conditions, then we'll try. If not, then after a suitable amount of time, I guess either of us will file for D.


Does that cover it??

I really need some guidance, if its even to say I'm going at it the right way, someone pls respond!

Let her get her stuff. I imagine it's the WS coming right? If so, give her space. If there are things or places you don't want her to have or be in....stipulate. Remove your precious things from her grasp. Don't take chances she will be reasonable. Better t/b safe.

If your W makes a showing be civil but not overly nice. If the WS shows up..... keep talking down to a minimum. NO R talk.

ok?

L.

Roger! She's coming with a friend, and no telling which personality is coming...LOL

I'd pretty much decided I'd let her have anything she wanted, within reason. And I won't do any M or R talk... but what if she initiates it, says she wants a divorce etc? How do I respond to that? Shrug my shoulders and say "do what you have to do?"

Just bought two new Japanese chef knives... then remembered its not a good day to be buying knives <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Man, just when you think you have things figured out, life throws you a curve ball.

A mutual friend just told me my MIL got admitted into the hospital with dengue fever. Not sure how she is yet, which also explains WS wanting to come sooner for her stuff cause she's heading back to her mother's place this weekend.

Think it would be a bad time to expose? I'll prob wait until everything is OK then proceed with the exposure at this point. Doing it at this point would be in bad taste, and just have her friends rally to her side and make me seem likt I'm kicking the dog when its down. What do you think?

Well, she came and took her stuff. I allowed her to take anything she wanted -well almost. Ironically the thing that did it was 2 small ceramic spoons and a plastic water bottle. She said she had wanted those cause "paid for them".

I kinda lost my composure when I saw her selecting stuff that were nice and good, and leaving stuff that was worn or old and saying "i paid for those". So I told her to leave it, and if she insisted to "leave it or get out"... so she left it... in a huff! LOL

Anyway, after getting all her stuff, she just left. I said bye to her friend, but just locked the door in her face and turned away. I was angry, but couldn't show it and this was the best I could do. So she left.

She was on the phone while looking around the apartment, so I spoke to her best friend, asking her if she knew that the affair was ongoing, and her friend said "its not what you think". I said what if you saw proof of it, what would be your stand on that?"... and she replied that she would not impose her views on anyone and that WS was an adult... man, wwhat an enabler!

Anyway, I'll have a bit more time to plan my move. Once MIL is in the all clear then I'll do the exposure. Meanwhile hope you guys will continue your help and support. Thanks!

Don't expect any help from best friend. First of all she is no friend at all. Friends don't give friends crack cocaine, enable affairs, tell them what they want to hear, etc. These are leeches and people who feel better about themselves when your WW is around because they don't look as bad to themselves. The best friend by all accounts is likely a wayward herself in some relationship.

Yes I agree.. a real enabler this 'best friend' turned out to be. If WS were about to commit suicide she would probably say "its up to her, she's an adult, won't impose my views on her"!

Anyway, this friend is single and happy go lucky. Never been in a relationship that I know of, so she'd be the last person to understand about love and relationships

I pity the poor man that makes the mistake of trying this one on for size. She's (I guarantee you) a wayward in waiting.

Sigh... anyway, now that WS's moved her stuff out... there's finally some sense of closure. I'm sad also, because her taking her stuff and leaving was quite 'final' and some part of me is still in shock and disbelief that this really IS happening to my marriage.

The WS was here tonight, no sign of the W anywhere. As she was packing her stuff, I looked at her almost without recognition, and I felt like hitting out at this person in frustration, to ask her what she had done to my WS!!

Anyhow, I'll wait it out for a few days, then see how MIL is doing before I do the exposure. Bad timing.. maybe this is God's way of telling me wait, or not to do it and just walk away? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Does her work pay for her phone bill? If so, they do have a right to know which calls were personal and which ones were for business purposes. If she submits the bills to be reimbursed (ie. she uses her personal cell phone then highlights business related calls) then the company would only really have a problem if she highlighted personal calls, as well. And, a lot of companies will reimburse a "reasonable" number of personal calls if they send you out of town.


I don't think there's a realistic way to know. There is definitely "A" chance.


This is normal. And, ultimately, if you do recover then that shouldn't be a part of life anymore. Whatever happens, it should not ultimately look like your marriage did before the affair or during it.

What you're looking to achieve is a true partnership with this woman.


*shrugs* There's never going to be a good time. I don't see what her mother's dengue fever has to do with her having an affair... and, in fact, exposing now might put even more pressure on the affair because her mother didn't approve and here she is in the hospital.

Do what you think is right but I'm not sure waiting will help or hurt. People are going to think what they think.


WHY?! You all ready knew her friend wasn't going to be on your side? Now you just added a bunch of gossip -- you know her friend reported every single thing you said, don't you? It just makes you look like you're still obsessing.

I thought you decided no relationship talk during the move -- why didn't that apply to her friend, as well?


I don't know, dev. I say expose only because it might put pressure on the affair.

It's going to make your wife mad. It's going to make some of your mutual friends mad or uncomfortable. It's not going to make you popular because it's uncomfortable news and people don't like the bearers of uncomfortable news.

You talk about bringing your wife back to the negotiation table. What do you honestly want to negotiate? Your posts here read more like you want to bring her back so you can call her onto the carpet for her bad behavior -- and YES, she deserves it. But, why would she sign up for that?

So far, the pattern has been that you "decide" you're going to do something (ie. no relationship talk, no pressure, be cheerful and yet enforce boundaries) and then in the moment you pull her girlfriend aside and start giving relationship talk to HER (because you know DARN well that it's getting back verbatim to your wife.)

And, I know, you didn't tell your wife what you had "decided" (Thank your lucky stars for small favors) but, honestly, forget for just one moment about the list of promises you need your wife to make to you. And, think REAL HARD about the promises you need to make to her at that negotiation table -- being able to stick to your promises/decisions in some sort of consistent fashion should be on that list.

Forget about this entire relationship and just consider if you were starting brand new with someone else (things didn't happen to work out because your wife decided she really IS a lesbian). At some point, you're going to need to be able to offer that consistency/honesty/committment to some other person.

Dev, you seem like a nice person and a really great guy and I truly hope that this works out for you or if it doesn't that you someday find someone really wonderful to spend your life with. I just gotta tell ya -- you really *need* to get a handle on the difference between what you say you're going to do (even if it's only said to yourself or to strangers on an anonymous board) and what you actually do You know all the right moves. You just don't do them when the time comes.

I'm not telling you this to demoralize you about your chances with your wife. I still think there IS a chance if the affair ends (which is why exposure is so important). But, if you get a chance -- it might be a tentative step that is very fragile. And, if you don't get this part of your personality under control then you're going to miss it. And, I'd hate to see that happen after all this hard, hard work you've done.

Mys

Ditto mys.

Gotta get those impulses under control dude...you lose sight of the ball every single time and fall flat on your face.

You can actually be counted on to NOT be consistent with your actual considered, advised, thought out plan in favor of desperate grappling and power struggling.

Is there some way to just completely AVOID any and all interaction with your W because you can't trust YOU?

I don't think that you will be able to plan A or plan ANYTHING if you can't find a way to moderate this.

I should think that with SOO many personal calls, WS would prob NOT submit it for reimbursement. She didn't give my ANY details on her new job before she moved out, so I'm really not sure what this company's policies are.


My chances are pretty low already for this to work out, but IMO, exposing now is going to get people saying that I'm an insensitive basta** and with dengue fever, you never know how it ends up. So, I think best to wait it out a few more days till MIL is in the clear before I do it.


Well, I didn't really know how her friend would react. I know for a fact that this best friend she's staying with DOESN'T know about the ongoing A, and I thought maybe I could just see where she stood if SHE did know. But now that I know, I can just discount any support from her side, enabler that she is. I guess I thought that if her fried was strongly against the A, then she would be a good ally to have.


I really want this to work out, if thats possible. Assuming all this works, there will be some accounting for wrongs etc, on BOTH our parts. But my intention is, and still is, to save my marriage. I guess my anger and resentment does get the better of me at times, and that is a problem.


Like I said, I didn't talk to the friend with the intention of getting gossip back to WS. It was just to test the waters and see what her best friend's stand would be on WS having a lesbian relationship. Now that I know she's an enabler and not much of a friend, I will just discount her altogether. It was stupid I know, I should have just waited till the exposure and see how she'd react then, but my intentions were purely just that.


Can you define "decided"? Decided to move on, or decided to try again?


You know, I'm usually not this inconsistent. I do what I say I will, and I say what I mean. Its just that dealing with the WS who I supposedly know so well and to keep re-discovering that she's a some person I don't know at all ALWAYS throws me off balance. I guess now that I don't have to deal or see with the WS directly, things will be better.



Thanks Mys, I do appreciate the support and help. And you're right, me not being consistent and sticking to the plan and letting my emotions carry me all over the place is wrecking any chances of ever getting my marriage back on track (if its even remotely possible at this point). So, what should my plan be at this point?

Then what do you think the company would do? She's free to make as many calls as she wants to whomever she wants for as long as she wants on her own dime. If I were the company manager, I wouldn't know what to do with the information.


I think that's fine. Do what you're comfortable with. I don't know anything about Dengue fever....


I think it was bad timing. Now your wife is forewarned, somewhat, though she's probably distracted by the MIL situation.


Your anger/resentment is normal. It's the way that it manifests that is destructive -- to what you are trying to achieve. Your wife sounds like she's a major conflict avoider -- which is probably how she landed in this affair in the first place. She sounds like she never really asserted herself when you overstepped your boundaries in the relationship.

Her conflict-avoidance, passive/aggressive BS (not the betrayed spouse "BS" if you get my drift) needs to be addressed just as strongly as your manipulative tactics. You two set up an unhealthy dynamic.

I think this agressive -- quasi take charge and figure out how to manipulate your wife -- approach you have is just a bad habit you picked up over the years because it probably worked. Your wife, on the other hand, is still performing her old conflict avoidance and passive agressive little tactics. Right now, you could say she's in the conflict avoidance to the extreme (deny the problem exists by completely removing yourself from the problem).

So, the first thing you have to do is recognize the dance. Then, stop stepping in your old familiar dance moves. You're not going to lure a conflict avoider into negotiation with conflict. Ya know?

Now, you might say: "Then why expose? Isn't that like setting off the nuclear BOMB of conflict?" The answer is "No." Because then, if you can do it ... and I really hope you can... you throw up your hands, step back and let the chips fall where they fall. You stop manipulating and trying to control the situation - don't fight the spin - stop trying to make yourself heard. You say your peace and then you fade into the background and take the Forrest Gump approach And that's all I have to say about that.

It takes two participants in conflict. It even takes two participants in conflict avoidance -- one to chase and the other to run. Your job is to neither run nor chase but to simply go very dark. Take yourself completely out of the equation -- find a hobby -- and let her thrash around in her own space until she gets tired of doing it. Much the same way you might let a small child have her tantrum in the corner while you go about your business.


Decided as in:

You decided to be pleasant, not argue over material things, guard your boundaries and stay away from any relationship talk. What? Do you need a lawyer to write your exclusion clauses or something? *No relationship talk unless she's on the phone and her girlfriend is alone with me and I can quiz her about how she feels about lesbians -- void where prohibited. Offer not valid on any cloudy days with humidity over 50%. No animals were harmed in the making of this decision." *nudges you playfully* I mean. Yeesh.


You know, I believe that about most portions of your life.

I guess I don't really believe that about your intimate relationships because you were the one that said you "always had to keep pushing until you got your way."


True.


Dev, the PLAN you've worked out on this board is perfectly fine. You don't need a "new" plan. You have a plan. The only addition I'd make to it is that you actually DO the plan -- and not just the parts that you're comfortable with.

Mys

Exactly, which is why I'm still considering the value of exposure to her current company. Except for the fact that OW is friendly with WS's current boss and has been known to 'drop in' for a chat, there is no reason for exposure as there is no grounds for the boss to do anything.



In hindsight, yes, it was bad timing. At the time, it was a 'sieze the chance' kind of moment and I just went for it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



Mys, you sure you're not a psychologist instead of in the IT line??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Most of the things you've said, about WS being a conflict avoider is pretty true. These are things she has said herself, that she avoids conflict and when things build up to a certain level then she just 'acts'. In this case, she 'acted' by jumping into OW's arms... lol which I still can't find any logic to.

Even last night, she was in conflict avoidance mode, she packed up her stuff quietly, didn't try to engage me in conversation, except when we 'argued' over the small items.



Roger, that is the PLAN. Expose then step back and go dark. I'm sure she or her friends or family will be hitting back at me for exposing in this manner... our culture is one of avoidance rather than confronting problems head on, especially for matters like these, which are shameful. So airing dirty laundry in public, a.k.a. the nuclear exposure would be frowned upon by most of the people receiving those emails. How do I avoid getting drawn back into the conflict??



Already have. Diving class starts Monday <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> After that, I'm just going to immerse myself in the water and not think about this anymore.


2x4 received loud and clear <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />


How does being pushy and insistant on getting my way get defined as a symptom of inconsistancy? If nothing else, it means I'm consistantly stubborn and insistant, doesn't it?


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wow, just had a close encounter of the pissed off WS-kind!

She called up me telling me about her mum's condition: "she's ok, stabilized etc" then I said OK thanks and was about to end the call when she said that she had heard that I called my bro-in-law and asked about my MIL's condition. She said a mutual friend had called her and now she wanted to find out from me what was next, now that she had moved out her stuff etc.

My first thought was that WS was trying to fish for information and to try and see what I was going to do next. I replied "What do you mean, what I'm going to do?" She then said that at this point, after moving out her stuff, she was ready to move on, and that she thought that I probably couldn't move on nor did I have any closure to this.

She then mentioned that "whatever you think is going on btw OW and me, its over", but it was like a matter-of-fact statement. Of course I didn't believe her, anything coming out of the WS's mouth is 99% lie after all. I picked up on that and kept asking her "Wait, you said that whatever I thought was going on was over? are you telling me the affair is over?".Then she spent the next 5 minutes trying to divert away from answering, saying stuff like "Why do you always have to bring up the affair or OW?". And I just laughed into her face. I said, "you have to ask me THAT question?? What is it you want to know? What is the purpose of this call? You worried about what I'm going to do next??"

She said "no" and told me that even if the affair was over, she would still not want to return to the marriage, and I replied "OK, whatever.. was there anything else?" She still wouldn't let up, and asked me again what my intention was? I told her "OK, you answer me one question first, what is the status of your relationship with OW now?"

And she hesitated and didn't give me an answer, saying stuff like "even if I told you we are just friends, you won't believe me anyway. What do you want to hear?"

I replied "How about the TRUTH for once?" <pause>

I added, "you've been lying to me all along, and you still think I'm deaf, dumb, blind and stupid. I wasn't lying to you when I told you in the car-park that I KNEW the affair was ongoing. I just want to hear the truth from your own mouth for a change"

Again she didn't want to give me an answer. Finally after a few very long pauses, she said "whatever was happening, we're just good friends now".

I then asked her "Oh?? WHEN did it end?"

She then said "I told you that I would just answer ONE question, now its my turn". Then she asked me what was next, are we just going to sign the papers, and walk our separate way away from each other?

I said, "Well, the ball is in your court, isn't it? You choose to have the affair, YOU choose to move out, and now you're asking ME where this is going? For me, I'm just going to lie back for a while and not do anything. In fact, I'm going to cook my dinner now, so if there was nothing else......."

She wouldn't let up and asked me another question which I can't remember and I responded by asking her back about WHEN the A ended, according to her. She said she was not going to answer so I said, "well, if that's the case, then there's nothing more to talk about! Are you done? I want to cook my dinner now"

Then she got really pissed off and said she hated me. I said "oh well, ok" then we ended the call.

She did mention a few times that she was "starting to realize things, that the (lesbian) relationship could not go anywhere" and I said, "well, yes, you also said that back in December too, and look where it ended up?" LB, I know. I just didn't want to deal with the WS quite so much - was she trying to fish for answers I COULDN'T give, or at best, maybe trying to get me to say I loved her and I wanted her back at whatever cost (to me)?

At one point I told her, "Look, I've already told you I was willing to work on saving this marriage, but that I would not be part of a 3-way relationship. And you and I both know you were in the A so I asked you to move your stuff out, simple as that."

She then asked me "But what are you going to do now?" I told her I didn't have an answer for her, I didn't know. I asked her, "what do you want me to do, say its ok for you to continue having your affair while I stand by??" She said again that she had moved on and she knew I couldn't or wouldn't at this point.

Anyway, pls give me a 'performance evaluation'. I think I could've handled it better, less LBs, but it was the WS on the phone and I didn't even detect a hint of the W there. She mentioned at some point that we should "sit down and talk about this" and I just said "there's nothing to talk about as long as you're in the A"

I later called up the friend and asked him what he had told her. And he said nothing, just told her to call me and to try and work things out, and not to let things be just like that. So I don't know. Maybe she had an attack of conscience, but that's not going to be enough to end the A for her, as entrenched as she is right now. I also didn't accept any kind of invitation to "sit down and talk" cause I knew all I would get was fog-babble from her. Did I do the right thing?

Dev,

U did the right thing....quite good actually but probably exhausting, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I read the tension but was glad to see you stuck to your ground when speaking with her.

I had a similar convo with my then Xws. From what I could surmise (because Ws' do NOT tell you their real reason), he wanted me t/d the dirty D work for him. OW had given him 'counsel' on getting a cheap A, he got the D book and then they both thought I w/b the one to fork out the $$ for the D. Ha! Stupid people.

Your questions were pointed and exact. Keep up the good work. She is not have a moment of conscience..... not yet.... she is fishing for info so she can plan her next move.

The next step is to expose to convo to those who are part of your support group. Let them know she is fishing for info and they may be the next victims so they need t/b prepared. Don't tell them more than you want them to know or divulge (gotta know which one's won't keep their mouths shut <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ).

This is where they need to trust your decision and I would tell them so. Throw in the line that in return you will respect their comments as best you can because you have made them part of your support group.

It works. I did it this way and my support group was impentitrable (sp???).

take care,
L.