Just at a stopping place. Hoping to move forward, but am really confused. First My H had an affair Christmas of 2005. D- day being January 7th, 2006. I had to catch him in the act, in order for him to admit. I knew from the first time he was having the affair, but he refused to admit this was occuring. H has trouble facing problems. Stemming from his parents lack of communication when he was a child. He has come a long way. Bascially, after the affair, i told I forgave him for what he did, but would need some help forgetting. WE tried conseling that lead us closest to a divorce. We read many books together and I was on this website a Lot. We had our ups and downs for the first 6 months. Things were on shaky ground for the first 6 months. Summer break was good, but the school began again. I feel that we are just the same as before. Which is not fine becasue that is when he had the affair. He says he is not sure why he had the affair, but indicated he has been angry that I am controlling- i.e. I am responsible and he is not. Before the affair about two months before, I backed off and began to give him lots of space. I didn't argue when he wanted to go places like bars, concerts, and other places. Normal this would have bothered me, but I was feeling very secure at the time. i shouldn't have. Simply put, I have always had difficulty when he wanted to go places with his buddies. I don't know why. He has lied a lot before and said that what I don't know can't hurt me- Wrong. I also have issues because he feels that we should be married, but we should live two seperate lives. He should have his own private email, his own friends, his own hobbies. Although he wants to do these occasionally. I still struggle with this and haven't been able to figure out why. Currently there is a major trust issue I have with him going out with friends I don't know. i also know that he never is interested in doing these things with me. OR even going out without the children.....

this week, he had off on Monday. On this day, I finally gave him a letter indicating all of my feelings and needs ( I held it for a month and finally gave it to him this week). I was an ultimatum- which is awful. I just feel that I need some kind of commitment to feel secure enough to move forward. Right now he is willing to walk out if there is any strife. Making me feel that if I bring up anything heavy, then that ends it. Meanwhile, some major issues need to be addressed in order for us to move forward. Namely- how we can get him what he wants and needs with me still being able to trust him. Bascailly, I feel that I am doing the work to make things happen because I love him. But he is just going along because he can still see his kids and it is easy to stay here. I never feel that he loves me because he never reaches out. His response to my letter which is below was to sit down and talk, but also to secure himself a place to be. Seeing as he is firefighter, he decided to take all of these extra shifts. In return the children and I haven't seen him since Monday for more than five moniutes. He will be working everyday unitl Tuesday. I can email, call, or visit,but don't know what to do. I would like to feel that I can relax about all of these problems or at least know what we are doing. I am facing testing for a lump they found on Thursday this coming week. I would like a plan so that I can relax before these tests. What should I do????




Letter:Lots on my mind. I think that you once felt the way that I did. I need to tell you now that I am feeling lost in our relationship. For a year, I have been wishing and hoping that I would begin to feel better. At times I do, but when things settle down I realize that this is not what I am looking for in a marriage. To give you an idea of why I am dissatisfied. I thought that I would write this to you. It helps me organize my thoughts, stay on track with the ideas are really bothering me, and not be directed to new subjects by yourself.

First and foremost, I have lost that feeling of love. When I think of you, I can’t think of someone that I would want to be with more. I love your humor. I love that you are a good father. I love how calm you can be. I could go on about all of the things that you do for us and how that makes me feel, but that still leaves me feeling empty.

Secondly, I am having a hard time getting over what happened last year. Everyday, I think about you and her. I think about you in bed with another women. I think about how you could put things places and do thinks with no disregard to how I would feel. I am confused at how a person could purposely hurt someone so badly. I think about the nasty things that you said during this time. I want these things to go away! I think about the things that you said about the way I dressed. It made me think that she was dressed better than I. I in turn spend lots of money trying to keep up with what I thought you would like in the bedroom and when we went out together. I still do. I hate getting dressed. I have trouble having sex. I feel like I am taking your time. I can’t relax; I am not satisfied in bed anymore. One time you told me you would be willing to have sex as long as it was not emotional. I guess that is why you don’t kiss me anymore. I think about all of these things during sex. I have trouble expressing these things to you, but know that not telling you is making me feel worse. I feel having sex often will make things better, but when I have sex then I feel that I need to protect myself from being hurt again.

When I decided to stay with you, I was excited. I thought that finally the problems in our relationship would be worked out and we would be happy. I would be able to tell you all of my feelings without fear of you getting upset. When I express my emotions to you, you get mad and start saying “ Now what did I do wrong this time?” This makes me feel like I can’t tell you my feelings. I would like for you to listen to my feelings and help come up with solutions to fix what has occurred. Sometimes this means change from you, me and sometimes it means we both need to make change. It is not a right and wrong incident. As you have well noticed that when you state this, I become defensive and the real problem is lost to an argument. Either consciously or subconsciously, you do this to avoid the real issue. I need you to learn to face the problem and work on a solution. I would be willing to help you with this. It is important to learn to face the issues that come up. Over the course of a marriage, people encounter many problems. In order to have a good relationship, both of us needs to communicate their issues and know that there will be support. I know that I have worked hard this year to hear things from you and not get upset. I am still working on that.

I know that you have good intentions, I trust you most of the time. The times that I don’t are because of things that you say or do that make me question your desire to be with me. In the book that I read, it states that the more needs the other person is meeting that, the more likely you are to stop having these feelings of trust. I have tried to express this to you, but have been received with the idea that you will not, “kiss my butt.” Marriage is not about kissing butt or doing things just to do them. I would do anything to show you that I love you. This includes over the last year, trying to understand when you have said mean and hateful things that it was a result of your affair. In return, I discussed these issues with you and continued to have relationship. I have tried to understand why you have been depressed. In return, I have done things I know that you would like- keep the house orderly, make you cookies, put special things on your seat, give you help straightening your garage, asking you your wants more often, arrange more time for doing things you like: riding, jeeping, bike riding…, avoided asking you to do things that I know you don’t enjoy- visiting Tara, my other friends, and the schools parents. I don’t feel like these things are kissing your butt. I do them because I love you. In turn, I want you to be happy. I make sacrifices to make you happy. Hence, what should happen is- I am happy because you are happy. The only problem is that when I do these things, I am becoming resentful. In my book it discusses that when one spouse makes sacrifices for the other and their needs are not being met, then they begin to feel resentful instead of happy.
I am at that stage now.

With you being gone so much, I have gotten a feeling of what it would be like without you. Although, I don’t like it and it would take me a long time to adjust, I think we would be okay. I am not scared as much anymore to be separated. Although, this is not what I want, it has become a real option for me lately. I am ready for a life filled with peace, love, and understanding. I would love for you to be a part of this. For me this means our relationship needs to be free from the pain of the things above. I want a relationship where we can come to each other with problems without fear of rejection. I want to be able to discuss things peacefully. I want some one who cares for me so much that he stops arguing if someone is hurt. I want you to learn to love unconditionally. I want us to be role models for our children in communicating. As much as you talk about creating a relationship with them that they can discuss everything with us. I want them to also to understand how to resolve conflicts appropriately.

Basically, I want the dream that every little girl has. To grow up and be swept away by their prince in shinning armor. In my dream, you expressed his love to me (not because I asked, but because he loves me and wants to show me how much he cares). He does this because he knows that the women he loves wants nothing more than to feel this. I don’t want this role-play; I want the real thing. To me it helps me feel that we are starting all over. It makes me feel important. It makes me feel that you would do anything for me. NO matter if you agree with it or not. I could go to anyone and get a ring. I want to know why you wanted me to have it. You said that I didn’t want to marry you, I just wanted the feeling of being married. Then why did I choose you??? Why did I stay with you?? I could have had many men in South Carolina, Memphis, and Maryland. I was asked out constantly while I was in school. I was even proposed to. If I just wanted the feeling of being married, I could have chosen anyone. I chose you! I loved you- no one else. The only thing that I have ever wanted from you was the same back. It means so much to me. In fact more now than ever. To know that you would open yourself up enough to get down on your knee and tell me how much you love me and that you want me forever would make me so happy on several levels. First, knowing that you a man who has trouble opening up could sacrifice so much of him to do that. Secondly, knowing that you would be willing to do for me what you didn’t agree with just because I thought that it was important. Also, to feel comfort knowing that you are here for the long haul and I don’t have to be worried about if you are going to leave today or tomorrow just because of a disagreement. Lastly, to commit to me again would validate that we were in this together and I wasn't so alone in fixing the problems that we have. So to you it may be just a fairy tale of mine, but to me is makes our marriage real again. Right now I feel we are going through the motions.

I know that I have said a lot. Instead of saying that you don’t understand, try going back and reading each part and asking whether you are willing to make these things better?

At one time in our relationship, you felt this way. I proved to you how much I loved you. I showed you that no matter what I love you. Are you willing to do that for me? Every night you can go to bed knowing how much I care, I would like the same. This is not crazy, lunatic, or psychotic, the feelings I have are real and others feel them too. Just because you don’t understand them doesn’t mean that they are not normal. I am normal, I am above normal, I am a beautiful person. If you can’t see that I am a good person who has done nothing more than loved you, then you shouldn’t try to stay with me. I deserve to be loved.

cfc,

I am not one of the experts, but I can tell you what I see.

Your H likes having you around to take care of the house and kids. I don't see any love in your R/M. He definately needs a wake up. Has he reacted to the letter yet? It looks like you layed it all out pretty good in a respectful manner.

Has he ever made an effort to use the Harley's principles in SAA. You definately can't continue with the M like it is.
I don't know if the answer is Plan B, but you have to give him a 2x4 some kind of way.

Did you Plan A the first go round. Have you worked on yourself and delt with your part in leading up to the A. I wasn't around for the first part of your story.

Actually, I tend to think Plan B is the way to go. He needs to see life with out you and you need to preserve what you have left for him.

You deserve to be loved by your H. You deserve to feel loved by your H. Being a doormat makes him happy and you miserable. On the surface I don't see him apreciating what you do for him at all. Your M is one sided and it's falling back apart. Your H is too caught up in his bull and entitlement.

Hopefully some experts will chime in. I know the weekends are slow, but I see Pep working her way through the threads.
Maybe she'll stop by.

Sorry you're back to square one. Good Luck.

CFC,

It is a beautiful and respectfu letter. Your words could of been mine right after my WH first A. What you are going through are things I felt and had also said to him.

It effect all we want is to feel loved by our husbands. I don't think you are asking for alot.

Have you thought about talking to the Harleys or calling the radio show?

Just some ideas. I called the show and they were helpful. Although I didn't really hear what I wanted to hear. But that happens in life sometimes.

Still

He says he has done a lot. He says, "I have stopped #@!@$#% another women is n't that enough. I have also given you everyday of my life to get things done around the house, help with my school ( a new business of mine), and I have spent every waking hour with you. I just would like sometime to myself to work through things." He really has done many things for us and commited his time for the past year. I just think that he is confused about how he feels about me. I am under a lot of stress and this causes me to not be so relaxed. I think that he would turly do anything, but I just don't understand why he can't admit that he loves and cares for me enough to see us through this. I wonder if I am not giving him what he needs. He is supposed to be generating a list of things that I can do to make him feel better also. I just wish that someone would kick him in the rear and say, " wake up you don't realize what you are going to lose. You beautiful children, a commited wife who bedns over backwards for you, and a comfortable life." I think he is thinking of himself too much to see the forest through the trees. My best friend called and said she thinks that we should go away for a week together and see how we feeel after that. She said time to just talk for lengthy periods of time would help us greatly. Not to mention to get away from the stress of the house and bills.

DO you think that I am forcing him to commit before he is ready? Is that really showing how much I care if i am pushy? If not when does the time come that you finally have given so much of yourself that you are dry???? Or when do you feel that if you give anymore and get nothing in return you will be mad at yourself for not realizing it was over?

I don't know CFC. This is a little out of my league. Has he really been there to help you or has he done just enough to keep you around? Did you feel like he was genuine when he did the couseling and book reading and stuff like that or did he do just enough to keep you around? Have you felt like he has cared through any of this? That may be your answer.

And no, stopping the SF with OW is not enough. There is a lot more to a M than being faithful.

You probably do need a trip with him without the kids to try and reconnect. That just might jumpstart his commitment to the M. Right now I don't see any. No kissing or emotional SF. That's very lame on his part. WEAK!

YOU ARE NOT HIS MAID, NANNY, AND POCKET P#$@Y!!

Sorry, I know that was harsh but I know what it's like to not be appreciated, the last few times I had SF with WW she wanted me to hug her so she wouldn't have to look at me. I feel so speacial now.

I guess I still have pain to deal with. Sorry about the rant.

Anyway. I give you my hope and support, but I don't know how sound my advice is. I'm just trying to get you to think about things you might not have thought about.

So I'm thinking try to get him to go on an escape with you. If he refuses or goes with a bad attitude, then maybe it's time for Plan B.

Good Luck

Oh yeah...

I forgot about his list. If his requests are sincere and rational then maybe you should consider them. If they are petty and selfish, once again Plan B his sorry a$$.

You have to remember to either have him committed and working on each other's ENs or Plan B and don't meet any of his ENs. As long as he is getting something from you he will continue down the path he is traveling. Don't let him do that. This has been going on long enough that I think Plan A time has past.

Later

He has really been around, trying to make things work. I think. Everything over the past year is a blur as you may feel. It think he is communicating and I am not understanding him. AS for counseling, I don;t think that he was able right after d-day to face the problem .We should have waited until after the rage of the pain ended and he stopped having depression from the situation. During counseling he tried to throw everything onto my plate. His way of avoiding the problems. He hsa tried to meet my needs although he says he doesn't understand them. He says he has trouble kissing me because he doesn't find me attractive- not physically, but emotionally. He says my actions don't make him want me. Again, If doesn't love me, i think that Harley says that we must be reflective to see what we need to do to show them how attractive we are. This is hard when I am stressed from my new buisness, a rental mobile home that was stolen, the stress of having the children constantly, the fact my marriage is falling apart, my kids constant sicknesses due to allergies/ asthma,financial constrained due to my H changing jobs.... If I explained everything you would understand that the stresses in our life are greater at times that the pain from his affair. In return, I am not the happy person that I have always been. In response to this, I would expect a spouse to try to make thing better for the other-seeing as he avoids 90% of these issues by working. His response makes me feel even more crummy. My best friend is probaly right on that we need to jump start this stalemate again. I guess i feel better because I just spoke with him and he said that he would do anything, but doesn't understand why I can't love him the way he is??? He makes really good points. That is probaly why I have gotten so good at communicating my needs so specifically. I feel so unmotivated at times. okay I will stop rambling- it just helps get out all of the ideas in my brain. Things tha are constantly coming up, but I am not sure how to respond.

Sounds like he still has the selfish tendencies of a WS. So throw this back at him.....

BS: H, with all you know you have done would you be satisfied with receiving the kind of treatment you have given your family? Would that make you feel safe, secure and loved?

(Then wait for him to respond).

See he is expecting you to settle for whatever he wants to give. That's why you don't feel recovered nor safe. That is why the trust factor has not been restored.

Example: An abusive parent can still pay for things for their child, still wash their clothes, cook their meals, buy things....yet still abuse. Do any of those required parental responsibilities lessen the severity of the abuse?

The correct answer is: NO

L.

So I feel that it is in my hands to start telling him what I need, but then I think I have. I feel like sitting back and waiting for more ENs to be met.

Funny thing- I wrote this and thought thaI submitted it. In the meantime, H calls to say that he loves me and wanted me to know that he cares.

Great. Now I am unsure what to do next??? I am tired of riding the roller coaster. I wish that I could get off. Right now it is sloooow, but the ups and downs are making me sick. How do I level out and begin to feel better. I guess we just both need to start focusing on our ENs. Any other advise woudl be great!

He loves you? How? He cares for you? How? Those are answers you need to know. Why? Because the trust factor is gone. It is his job to restore it.

He says....talk is cheap....tell him he needs to show it and then leave it up to him. See? He needs to go past what he is willing to settle for and do what you need him t/d 4 U.

Don't give him details on how to do it, he needs to figure it out. That way if it fails, it isn't your fault.

L.

DOnt' give him details??? I thought that surviving an affair discusses not playing" games" and being strong enouhg to admit your needs. Yet, when I do this, I feel that I am doing all the work. HIs does the things that I want, but then says I did it because you told me too. He called from work on his own, I didn't ask him. I though that was caring. He definately deposited a token in my love bank then. I feel that my bank has like one coin. Then he takes it out and then waits to redeposit. I wish he could work to earn enough to deposit more tokens frequently. In and out, in and out is soooo redundant.

Okay, here I go down again. I say to H, I need something from you. He responds in the middle of our nightly arguments ( which we stopped two days ago and agreed to only conversations in the day), Okay, I really care about you and do not want to hurt you, but I don't think this is never going to work out. I ask him why he is there. His response is that it must be for the children. I am heartbroken. I feel that we have come so far over the past year amd now we are back to the beginning. I think he feels that he will never meet my emotional needs. He finds it is too hard. AS I am writing this I am listening to the Harley's radio show. A caller just called in with the same issue. There response is the way that I am feeling is because Although he has done so much for us over the past year, he hasn't done what i have needed to let me get over the affair. Harley says that he needs to meet my EN's which he has tried to do, he has stoppped love busters which we are working on right now, and he must consult with me about everything. WE just read Surviving an affair together and we are starting from the beginning. He and I are trying to avoid all love buster and to use the policy of joint agreement. Also he says that H needs to be transparent. He needs to answer all of my questions due to the affair. Does this ever stop? H feels that the questions are disrespectful because he has done so much to make this marraige work over the past year.


First, I am having trouble with him agreeing to work on this for the wrong reasons. After bantering back and forth about the idea of separation, i told him that he needed to make a decision to stay and work on this or to go for good. I told him that after his affair, i wouldn't be able to separate without divorcing him. I couldn't handle him putting this marriage in turmoil from the divorce and then hurting the children by separatting and coming back. He constntly kept coming back saying, I don;t think that this would work. I told him that I din't need him to believe that it would work, but i needed him to want to try. He said he thoguht that we have been trying and he was done because he could continue without seeing change. He felt that I was inferring that he would be selfish to just leave or to be selfless to stay and feel miserable. He said leaving makes three (the children and I) unhappy, but staying makes only one person (himself) unhappy. I said the point of staying is not to stay and be unhappy but to stay and work to make us both happy. [color:"red"] [/color]

The next day, we sat down and read about Love busters and the policy of joint agreement. Things went well.

At first we needed to use the policy to solve this problem:

I causually say to H, I have Monday off and so do you. He says you do??? He immediately says I made plans to go out to breakfast after work with his co-workers (he is a firefighter). He says this is what I mean. I want to go out to breakfast but feel obligated to come home. I leave it alone to make sure that I am being respectful in my reaction. I want to address this because he made a decision without me. Later, I say what do you think about Monday? He says I will come home immediately. I say why? He says he feels that I will be upset if he doesn't. My response is I would love this, but I want you to be happy too. I don't want you to give in just so that I am happy. I want us to both be happy about the decision. I say it is not cut and dry- you have to not go to breakfast or not go out with me. What about if you eat breakfast and then come home. I will meet you about 9:30. He says that assumes that he will be able to get to breakfast by that time and make it home. I say i can go to work and you can come when you are done. No he agrees to me and refuses to make compromise for him. He wants to show that he is making a sacrifice, but is mad later when it is brought up.- I.E. he will say you never let me do what I want, even when I tried to go to breakfast you didn't let me go. I feel that either way I lose in this. i don't know what to do, but I would like to feel that I wasn't constantly playing games. [color:"orange"] [/color]

[color:"orange"] [/color] . He says that he has never been happy in our marraige. I find that the most painfull thing that I have ever endured. I know he said this last year when he was recovering from the affair. He felt so empty. I also know that we have argued a lot in our marriage in the past, but we have also had a lot of wonderful times together. I think the wondeful has overcome the arguments. H has trouble getting over things and holds it inside for years. Never being able to soothe himself after an argument. PErsonally, i keep talking until I feel better. H would rather run away an be alone until he feels better. He has come out of his shell a lot in the past year. And tremendously since we began our marraige in '95.


Is there hope? I do hope so, but am losing feelings of love constantly.

H refused SF also- he says he is too uncomfortable with our situation to risk having sF.

What do you think my next stps should be? Should we continue with working on LOVe busters and policy of joint agreement until things settled down and then address EN's until things are better. Then address the issue of recovery from the affair or should I address this first??
HELP

I am hoping to bump this because I have some real questions that I know you all can help with like:

"Harley says that H needs to be transparent. He needs to answer all of my questions due to the affair. Does this ever stop? H feels that the questions are disrespectful because he has done so much to make this marraige work over the past year."

AND

"He wants to show that he is making a sacrifice, but is mad later when it is brought up.- I.E. he will say you never let me do what I want, even when I tried to go to breakfast you didn't let me go. I feel that either way I lose in this. i don't know what to do, but I would like to feel that I wasn't constantly playing games."

AND

When you know that your spouse is done, can there be change? Has it happend to any of you?

bump

Still looking for help. Although, H seems to be fine when he isn't under any pressure to make change or discuss the problems. He has really been trying to meet my EN's atleast SF- which is never bad.

Athough, I went back and reread Harley's books.

Problem #1- I am not healed from the affair. Although it is distant when I become too close to H, i get angry that he won't do the steps in SAA to resolve this for me. He feel that I am attacking him because we waited too long to begin the transparency. He feels that he has proved his worthby giving 100% of his time for the past year.He seriously has. He has gone anywhere but work and some pit stops for parts and groceries here and there. I have been using longhorns 101 to spying ideas without being too nerotic.

Problem# 2- H says tha he had an affair partially because he felt I was controlling him. I don't buy it because he was freeier (is that a word?) than ever during the A otherwise he wouldn't have been able to have an A. He say me asking Q's all the time makes him feel like," why should I work on it when all I will hear for the rest of my life is questions that make me look like I am untrustworthy".


I am riding the good times right now, without tryign to address anything bad because I felt that H shutdown emotional and wouldn't let me meet his EN's. AM I hiding the issue? I normal face problems instead of tiptoeing around them like my H.


Anyone out there??? What do you think??

personally, I think you have given him enough time. I would leave and seek out happiness elsewhere. I feel sorry for the kids, but I think they deserve for their mom to be with someone more loving and caring...and someone that takes responsibility for their actions.

medc