whenever DH and I talk about forgiveness, he will say he has forgiven me but he quickly follows up with "but that does not mean i have forgotten".

i'm not really sure what that means to him...

i'm wondering if anyone can provide any insights.

i did ask him why he responds that way and he says he just wants to be clear.

i tried to get more info from him by asking him what does having me know you have not forgotten mean to you, but he didn't have an answer.

he asked me what i thought it would mean. i said that you want me to know that you still have memories that bring you pain. that forgiveness does not take that pain away.

he said that was true.

maybe i should not try to anylize this at all, i just thought i would see if any BS might have any thoughts about it.

Sounds on target for me.

I'm still "forgiving" my FWW. It's not a one-off thing for me, but a process. That process will end when I truly feel that she understands the damage that she caused by her choices and she's fully remorseful about them.

As for "forgetting", that's likely not going to happen. What I hope will happen is that, at those odd times that I'm reminded about her A, the negative feelings become less intense until they don't disturb me anymore. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like I'll reach that place in a hurry - it took about 5 years to reach that point after her first A, and that A was much less intense and a lot further from home than her latest one. Also, after that first one she was much more willing to assist me in anyway possible to recover from this. Now, her actions suggest to me at times that, even if I reach the point of completely forgiving her, continuing our M might not be in our best interests.

Finally,
I think you're right on track with what he means. For me, forgiveness comes when the FWS has remorse for the A, demonstrates that they are taking steps to prevent it from happening again and are committed towards a future with the BS; essentially there is hope for the M.

Unfortunately, the BS will never forget (until perhaps senility) but hope, faith and forgiveness help them look more to the future than back at a painful past. It's a daily struggle but the uphill grade decreases over time.

V/r,
No Way

what do i do with that knowledge?

previoulsy it's been hard to not conclude forgiveness is not really occuring. but i don't want to not take him at his word anymore. he says he has forgiven me, i have to accept that and believe if.

i have to believe him wanting me to know he has not forgotten is not meant to make me feel unforgiven...

i just don't really know what to do with that knowledge.

i'm not sure i'm making much sense....

bump ^ anyone else have any thoughts?

including telling me to not dwell on it. it's just something he wanted to be clear about, end of story.

and the only thing to do with that knowledge is to keep that info in the forefront of my brain so that i can be sensitive to him.

is that the point?

What big dummy put those two words together in the first place?

what two words?

forgiveness and forgeting?

i did not.

i ask about forgiveness. DH always brings up the forgetting part. He cannot say i am forgiven without very quickly following up with but he has not forgotten.

that is why i made this post.

i'm trying to understand why he does that.

I know you didn't put them together, FL. I mean... in the English-speaking world it's common to use them together, but I don't know if there's a good reason for it.

I'd take your H's response to mean I forgive you but I don't trust you not to hurt me again.

ahhhh, now that would make sense.

May I make a suggestion? I'm a BS several times over from my first marriage, and here's my thought. To me, forgiveness means "I love you, I choose you, I accept you back even knowing what has occurred." It means that I will move toward the future and not hold it over your head forever. It means that I choose to act AS IF the slate has been wiped clean.

HOWEVER, what occurred did occur. It is now part of who *I* am--it is part of who *you* are--and it is part of our marriage relationship. Thus, I do not forget.

Envision a rape. It is traumatic. It freaks you out and you lose your safety and trust and don't know what is real in life anymore (and this is similar to what a BS goes through). At first, most rape victims wonder, "When will I be like I used to be? When will I be like I was in the past?" and the answer is "Never." You will never be the innocent person who absolutely believes in safety again. You will never be 100% trusting again. You will be wiser and a little more independent and maybe a little more suspicious in a healthy way. Those who deal with the issues of a rape and come through as survivors may "forgive" and move forward with their life, but they never "forget" because they are forever changed.

Now, do survivors of rape continuous dwell on it and have it affect every part of their life. At first they do! YES! But gradually, especially if they go to so counseling or a rape support group, it begins to integrate into the person they are today, and the continuous "dwelling on it" goes away. Nonetheless, the person that they are is changed. They are no longer innocent/naive. They no longer believe in the illusion of "it can't happen to me."

Can you see what I mean FL?

Your faithful friend,


CJ

I think so.

I think at some point in the (distant) future, he may leave it at "i've forgiven you", if you allow the memories to fade, without stirring them up again, by whatever triggers he may have. But right now, sounds like the wounds are still bruised, and he's letting you know that.

FL,

You said
Not quite in my opinion. If I were running your life, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
I would have looked him in the eye and said "Good, neither have I". Or something a bit more pithy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> than that.

FL, you don't want him forgetting. Absoluetly you don't want him forgetting. You don't want to forget either. Why?

Because if you forget or he forgets then there will be no lessons learned. Forgiveness is setting down the need to punish or extract retribution. It is not forgetfulness.

If I were you I would consider starting a conversation tonight. Something along the lines of "you know I have been thinking about what you said about forgiveness and not forgetting and I KNOW you are right. I don't want you to forget. I want the pain to fade. I want and need your forgiveness. But, if you forgot we would have struggled through this in vain. Now I want you to also want you to remember this: I do love you. I need you in my life. I want to be as close and intimate with you as you can handle. I want you as my life partner. Don't you forget these things either. OK? "

FL, now do you see why you need to forgive yourself? He needs you to be those things I mentioned and more. You cannot do that worrying about you failures when you have successes to perform. You cannot forget either, and you should not. But, the emotions associated with those events will disconnect with time for you and for him. The memories will remain, but the feelings associated with them will fade.

They will fade faster as you smile more. As you become playful again. As he sees you become the woman he has always loved.

So to answer your initial question, he is right on, and you should be very very happy about that. Neither of you should forget, but forgive???? You bet!

God Bless,

JL

Ooooo, that's good.

JL, that is an excellent idea but i fear with the words will come tears. i'm sure it should not feel that way (and i'm sure you want to yell at me for having this emotional reaction), but i also know my limitations right now and i just don't see getting to the end or having it sound as elequent and upbeat if i try to say it outloud.

ya think it would be just as effective to say the same thing in a card so that it does not have to include him seeing me cry??

Hi CJ, thanks for the post, it makes a lot of sense.

techie i really wish the word "distant" did not have to be there.

i really think DH being in Vegas recently along with the fact that in 2 days it will be 3yrs since i first told him part of the truth has just gotten me into such a emotional mess.

but i won't let him see it. i'll act as if i don't feel this bad in the hopes that acting happier will in fact make happy feelings come back again. i'll help with diner, joke with my son while doing homework (it the only way to do it without us disliking each other!!), take the dog for a walk and NOT hide out in my office.

i know you guys hear about me being down quite often. but there really have been many days that i have not been so down or stayed down like i am now.

i don't post on good days, at least i don't post about me on good days. i try to post to others on good days. so it's easy for you guys to think i am never happy and therefore making progress.

i'm not a total basket case that has not made any progress.

i have not been wrapped up in selfish pity feelings for the past 3 years. i have done some really good stuff. i have worked hard at making ammends and at growing and learning. DH tells me at times he is happy. so i must be doing something right a lot of the time.

i'm just hurting really bad right now.

FL you rock

I would liken finding out about an A to losing a loved one. We go through all the stages of grief, disbelief, anger, sorrow and then learn to cope with those emotions and move on. In the case of an A, we can forgive, but forgetting is not really possible. There is still a sadness that is left for what has been lost. It doesn't mean we can't be happy in the present, only that we miss the loss of innocence that resulted from the A.

As a BS we have questioned everything including our own sense of judgement. Even when we know our S has realized the full impact of what they have done and we ourselves have come to grips with it, forgetting isn't really an option. We can forgive, but will always remember.

Corrie ten Boom told the story of her own healing in regard to forgiveness. She had been talking about the need to forgive and then was approached by a a man who was one of her guards in the concentration camp who asked for forgiveness. She described all the emotions she relived in that moment, anger, hatred, sorrow and said she realized she had to let go of it all and REALLY express forgiveness to him at that moment in time. She said she wrapped her arms around him and held him and together they wept.

But the next weekend she was back on the road telling the story of her years in the camp. Some things can be forgiven, but are just too important to forget. We forgive and move on, even being happy once more, maybe even more so because we have regained what was lost, but we shall always remember.


Mark

FL,

I have told my FWH nearly the exact thing.

What I meant when I said it was this:

I have forgiven him for the affair.

I just can't forget it, because it won't stop being in my mind. It is there when I wake up in the morning, and when I go to sleep at night. It nags at me as a part of my being when I am in a quiet moment in the day. So, I try hard to stay busy, to keep my mind from wandering "there", but that doesn't seem to work. So then, I try to go "there" on purpose, in an effort to get my mind to work through it, to be done with the thoughts of the affair, so that my mind can just figure it out - maybe, just maybe, if I give it enough thought I will be done with it.

Maybe if I read enough.
Maybe if I intellectualize it enough.
Maybe if I cry enough.
Maybe if I wax philosophic enough.
Maybe if I take enough advice.
Maybe if I give enough advice.
Maybe if I .........


Maybe I can forget......


Maybe that's what he means.

That's what I meant.

SB

Well, FL...nothing personal my friend but wouldn't it be a boring post:

"Hello all! Everything is well. I am happy. Ummmm...that's all! ~~Bye!"

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Of course you have bad days and even bad weeks or bad seasons. It happens. Sometimes it really has nothing to do with the A--it's just that spring is sentimental or it's raining for the fifth day in a row. And sometimes it is related to the A (like an anniversary or something). And sometimes, it's just the blues...nothing more. At times, a good, thorough pity party (limited of course) is just the ticket. Cry--be melancholy--eat a gallon of Hagen Daz and be better. Get it out of your system.

OTOH, if this seems to be ongoing, ya might want to mention it to your health professional and see what they say.

((FL)) Courage! You can do this!!

Your faithful friend,


CJ

ya know, sometimes the shortest posts are the BEST...


thanks graycloud <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

thanks Mark and SB for your thoughts. SB, he has told me that it is not in his everyday thoughts. Seems to be in mine more than his.

i hear what you are all saying about not forgetting. this has helped. thanks.

and JL, I will take this opportunity to give that msg to my husband, not 100% sure if it will be in person or via a note. i must say, that last post i wrote seemed to have been a bit of a good purge for me.

i am feeling better.

CJ, you are wonderful. you were way back when you first started posting to me and you are now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> thanks. i'll be sure to do some of that boring posting you mentioned.

i'm off to have a relaxing evening now. well, after math homework is done... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />