(began as reply to "stressedwife")

The authors of the Boundaries books are Cloud & Townsend. Those are very good books, but they are dealing with fairly normal people in most of their examples, except in mentioning addicts and such. I still think the "Men Who Hate Women..." book is most aligned with your situation and I have read so very many books. Your husband doesn't have any addictions, right? At least none you can see - some people get addicted to their behavior and use it rather than healthy thought processes to make their way through life, only established psychologists and such don't always recognize that (that's one of the reasons I love Dr. Harley - he DOES recognize that, for instance, affairs are addictions (I know that's not your husband's problem - just mentioned for example sake). It's a personality disorder, probably, and it's either curable or it's not. His pleading doesn't determine which it is. Anyone losing something valuable will plead.

I think the men described in the "Men who hate women..." book don't have personality disorders, in the clinical sense, but they were sort of warped somehow, growing up. Either one parent or the other was domineering and the other was the placater/submissive and these things aren't always so clear. What were the dynamics in your husband's family of origin? You mentioned mental illness... anything else?

In my own situation I remember being told certain things that didn't seem so important at the time, but now when I look back these things scream explanations at me. My ex mother in law told me once that my ex FIL used to make her guess why he was upset - he would just shut her out for 2 or 3 days at a time until she figured it out. If she asked he would just continue the "poor me" silence, as though if she couldn't guess, she must not really love him or she must be a bad wife or something. Can you imagine the hurt and the resentment that would build over the decades? They were married for a long time and there was no affection between them. She grew very bitter and cold, even though she tried to appear sweet and she was generous, but eventually I recognized the bitterness. She ran around like the dutiful wife, but secretly resented her lonely life. So, she raised my ex and his siblings and they are some of the most self-centered people I've ever met in my life. Do they have personality disorders? Could be, but I'm betting who they are is just so deeply ingrained in their characters that they'll never see the light and there's always some sucker (like I was and my ex's current girlfriend) who comes along for them to use. They don't actually produce anything lasting in life. They somehow manage to make a living off of others' hard work.

My ex used up his first wife, she divorced him after he moved out for a trial separation. I'm guessing that he just wanted to be free for a while, but just never went back. A couple of years later, he marries me and repeats the process, except I'm a lot stronger than she was and I hung in there for 14 miserable years (there were quite a few high points that fooled me). He impregnated her right away - he did the same to me. He made us dependent so he would have control. The book will explain this control. He completely abandoned his first set of children, by the way, six years into our marriage. He quit paying support and forced his ex onto welfare.

Anyway, it seems I'm here for a little of my own help and therapy tonight with how I'm carrying on - didn't mean to steal the show. If you find anything useful in my experience, I hope you are blessed for the knowledge.

These types of men simply do what they want and are oblivious to the emotional torture they perpetrate. And why not? Mom always put up and shut up. That's the message I got 2 or 3 years into our marriage - not because he said the words, he would never use the words. He'd bring me flowers, but let the bills go past due. He would just drag me around in life, going in whatever direction suited him and I would be left to scramble to get my feet up under me. More than once I was left standing at the grocery store with an ATM card that couldn't buy what was just rung through the checkout (things like babyfood and diapers), because he took the last of the money to buy himself something. He was never overtly aggressive or verbally abusive, just did his own thing and had very little self-discipline. That's probably why it took me so many years to figure it all out - like his mother, I was left to figure things out on my own, but blamed for everything, somehow.

This man ruins his own relationships, then blames it on the woman and moves on, never really changing the underlying cause. Once he admitted to me that he's a vacuum and another time he told me he was empty. The only thing that can fill that kind of emptyness is God, or a higher power. I used to say he was his own God. He only went to counselors to complain about me, but I was the one seeking the counseling, due to his pornography use and financial destructiveness. He turned everything around on me, somehow, and I attempted to be perfect, only to find him having two affairs in the end, the most recent one is his next victim.

She's not what you could call attractive, but she appears to take care of herself - except for smoking. She's 40 and never been married - obviously she has problems developing a lasting primary relationship. I think the only reason they've been together for this long is that their relationship has NEVER BEEN TESTED with reality. They hang out at her apartment and make passionate love (he left me for the passion - by his admission - it seemed I managed to fill every need but that (oh, but he still lives in our home until it sells - he refuses to move out), she listens to all his woes about his horrible ex-wife (me) and his horrible other ex-wife and makes excuses for him. I've even told her some really aweful things that he's done to her, but she just files it under "crazy ******" (her words) ex-wife. He's got her completely snowed and she eats it up, because she's not dealing with a full deck either, probably. She wants her love affair so badly to last (don't we all?) that she won't see his dysfunction until she's committed and it's too late and she's finally the one in pain.

Some people are just incapable of change, because the methods or tools they use to get through life net them the most for the least investment of effort. My ex admitted to me that he wants to be pursued - he's tired of pursuing. That's just another way of saying he doesn't want to work at his relationships and I'm guessing his girlfriend has him believing she's going to work just as hard as always, as she did to rip him away from his wife and family. But, we all know relationships take work. He's already set her up to suck the life out of her. See the selfishness? He should be thinking about what he has to offer her - he just wants to believe what she tells him, has been telling him based on one-sided biased info to be sure, to tear his family apart and win him. But, she's never had to deal month after month with a man who only pays a bill when he's on the precipice of disaster. She'll get a taste of him coming home with a $250 gift he bought for himself on a whim, when her own clothes are falling apart and there are bills to be paid. He could retire on the investment if he weren't otherwise paying insufficient funds charges every month, because of his bad habit of drawing cash out of his account that checks are written against. He's in arrears before he even gets a paycheck. He didn't even pay his bills off or the monthly ones regularly when he had over $100,000 in the bank.

But, he can be a really great guy. He's decent looking, a good lover, a good dresser, intelligent, articulate, capable for the most part, a good orator, can be sensitive and caring. He's very clever. He can do seemingly selfless acts (but will resent his recipient later). He could be talented (if he didn't quit things so easily). Except for the selfish acts, bad oral hygiene, pornography use, financial irresponsibility, child abandonment, wife abandonment and mental cruelty, and tantrum throwing, he's a really great guy.

See, it's all on the outside, but the inside is rotten, beginning with his teeth. So, when his life ceases to function, he scraps it and goes and gets another. People are disposable to him. But, you'll never see it up close. And, if you bring it up, he'll just start throwing excuses at you and making you a bad person for pointing it out. Then he'll bring up something bad about you (because he knows what your weaknesses are) to distract from whatever was the issue in the first place. If he doesn't do that, he'll say he'll change, but then never does. He makes a living off of keeping you off balance, mostly financially. But, all anyone on the outside ever sees is this nice, smart, well-dressed guy. That's what he wants everyone to believe and you look crazy to others if you complain. Just like his dad.

I think only God can reach him. Everyone else just gets sucked into the black hole. I hope God does reach him. But, I don't count on it anymore.

hfpw.... i cannot say that i completely relate with your story... mine is a bit different... although i pay all the bills and he gets to save what he can... but i was ok with this because i KNEW that i could do it on my own... he was also paying the mortgage on a house the he owns...we were setting up a bank account together because we worked on a budget TOGETHER...
he has agreed to let me decide this... he said he will continue with therpy with or without me... his childhood was NOT easy... (although did any of us really have a great childhood???) his mother is bi-polar and he was raised by his father and grandmother... he had lost both father and grandfather by his early 20's... i am NOT making excuses for him, nor do i want to... but i DO feel that i should give this ONE shot... if it doesn't work out.. he said he is more than willing to move out again... but it's up to me...
my husband has not cheated on me nor did we really have a BAD relationship...we just did NOT communicate.. and it aggravated him... which in turn led him to be angry with me.. and destructive of my belongings... He has OVERCOME all of that.. the past several months have been great.. until we got into an argument over finance and i shut down... i am not blaming myself here either... but i do realize now what our issues are/were... now i just have to decide whether it can be fixed or not...
i need advice... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

hi stressedwife,

It sounds like you have a lot more to work with than I did. I think you are on the right track. Just the fact that your husband is willing to continue with counseling sounds hopeful.

I share my story because it took a lot of work to finally figure out that my ex is just narcissistic. Psychologists overlook this easily. I've been through about 10 different counselors through the course of my marriage and not one of them saw it, but the last one. In fact, some good self help books out there mention that you have to live with someone like this to really see how they operate. We're all a little narcissistic, but some really slide toward the other end of the spectrum and the behavior can come and go and it can be passive, which just makes it more elusive.

I hope that others here can learn from my terrible experience and glean from it whatever value there is for them.

I wish you strength and peace through your circumstances.

i feel like i have something to salvage.... i know that my family sees it different.. they are trying to protect me.. i realize that... i realize lots of things... but nobody is giving me the benefit of the doubt... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> especially my family.. and it HURTS...

Oh, my. Stressed wife, it appears to me that you are in denial. I, too, thought I had something to work with. And while you think you are saving together and budgeting, he could likely be making you think that just to shut you up.
My XMIL had Martyr syndrome, described well by HFPW. So all X witnessed was dad treating mom poorly and mom just doing more and more.
And I too had the lack of communication.
God bless you. I now look at my X as a 17 YO child who never progressed beyond that age. He's incapable of it. He never learned how to act as an adult, and has no intention of ever doing so.

Have you read "The verbally abusive relationship" by patricia evans? It's a great book about emotional abuse, not just verbal. It talks about people living in 2 different realities. You are living in the "we are a couple and making couple decisions" reality. Think about how your H acts? Is it really the same.

I was in denial for a long time struggling to keep my family together. And divorce from this Passive aggressive, narcissistic personality type is no picnic at all either. (BTW, counselors have diagnosed, not just me).

May God bless you and help you through this.

I truly believe in the Harley methods and if you are dealing with a "normal" person, I believe the harley method will work. You should know quite quickly what type you have, if you just look honestly at the situation.

Newly... thank you very much for your insight.. i do honestly believe that he is changing... and we are going to be on a TRIAL period... if it doesn't work, then he has already agreed to go... i have to have some faith.. i want my marriage to work... just a little faith is all i need to get it started... i just wish someone would have a little bit of faith in me... i believe that i am a very strong woman.. and i believe that i see what is infront of me... but i wonder sometimes... am i not really seeing..??? am i being blinded??? do i not take the chance and wonder what IF for the rest of my life???

In the midst of things, it is difficult to see clearly. Seeing a counselor is a good thing, and gives you a different perspective. If he's still willing to see a counselor, that can be perceived positively as well.
I never planned to be divorced, but I didn't have a choice.
Use your resources to help you get through this. If you have a good base and can work on your marriage, you have the ability to have a wonderful life together, and many tools are available on this site.

Many good people tried their best to make their marriages work, and really worked at it. And they will always know they tried and will not need to wonder "what if".

My X is/was too far gone, and the situation rears its ugly head all the time with the kids. Kids should never be used as pawns.

i plan on working hard for sure... as does my H... so, time will tell... but i know i'll be ready for the outcome no matter what...
i am sooooo glad i found this group...

HFPW, I read your story again in this post. When you said your ex is with a 40 year old inexperienced at relationships and having a heated affair I wondered if it was me... but wait that was me in my early thirties when I married the monster who was living with someone just six months before I met him, someone who was likely saying the same story about him, how he ran off with someone with no sense of reality. It's true, I spent my 20s traveling the world, running a business, fleeing relationships and I didn't have skills that a normal person of my age would have had. And that would have been fine had I not met HIM. As he saw it on my forehead didn't he? Sucker, stupid?

I've read all the books too. My ex had a controlling mother and I think it's true on one hand men raised to both love and resent their mothers - learn to manipulate and control women. It's some insane type of "self protection" I suppose. I don't think my ex respects women, my dear old mother said it when I was dating him - while I was getting more flowers, love letters and phone calls then any man in my life. Certainly he enjoyed the chase and charming me - and he too would be the perfect charming, well dressed, well conversed husband if it weren't for the lying, cheating, drinking, porn and the violence. We married after three years of dating long distance? Why do you think he dated long distance that long to begin with? I broke up with him here and there and he always used his tears, charm, letters, whatever it took to win me back - I finally left the marriage two years ago and he's still doing the crying routine, and I don't even know if he creates tears, has feelings what. I think Patricia Evans is right about abusive men, they drag us around, treat us like we are teddy bears and take over.

Now here I am the "used up wife" in your words. A shrink actually said to me that he "ruined me" which was cruel and he was abusive himself. But sometimes I think he was half right. I'll always associate relationships and men with fighting. I was niave, in love with life, on top of the world when I met him. But I have my faith in God that I'm returning to, and there's a slow gradual healing process. Yet it's obviously that I'll be tainted from this marriage, even though it was only six years - two separated, but we have a child together so he's going to be a part of my life for a long, long time although I wish it could just END.

I think the Boundaries books are good because abusive men are the one's who least understand boundaries, and so often are the women who are with them don't you think? My mom took a boundaries class at her church and everyone was in agreement that the lines have to be so firm with an abusive person as they don't understand them at all - the overcross and overcross them over and over again. And the more we can know about being firm the better. The agreement was also that if a man abused his wife that under no circumstances should she take him back unless there is serious and very serious remorse for what was done, not just talk. Even from the Christian stand point, God doesn't expect women to live with abuse and there's no place for violence at all in a marriage.

My ex does the same, relationships with women are disposable, like a narcisst, he'll just move to another town once the thrill of charming a whole new group of people is over. He's bank president in a small town now, left the state for this job, got such a thrill from showing off and charming the naive locals for about a year, if that, now he's done, not only is the challenge over, they likely see him for what he is. If it's not a new town and job, it's a new girl, or most likely both. And yup it's everyone's fault, the owner of the bank, the coworkers, the economy in the case of jobs... in the case of women, they are all trash, looking to clean him out, they are scattered and silly and all the things "girls" are that he so disrespects if they are or not, he'll push so many buttons in the end that they'll become what he disrespects. He's a crazy maker, he can't live in peace and harmony. He just can't.

His mother told me last summer when I visited her with my boy, "It's my fault... look at my temper." You know what, I'd read the Patricia Evens books and the books on Men who Hate Women. That she admitted that she messed up is one thing, but to go through life making changes would be another. She goes to church twice a week, perhaps at some point in her 70 some years there would have been something in those services about tempers and how to control them, thus raising your children in a more peaceful environment? And at her age to admit that she has this temper, that it's a family thing that's been passed down and to have done nothing about it? Excuses, excuses, excuses and I'm sick of a world of excuse makers and blamers. No it's not completely her fault but that she raised a son like this, another who's gay and disfunctional and another on drugs might tell you that the family she presents to the world as being perfect, educated (yes all successful bankers, managers and dentists) might not be "ok." Nor is her temper ok. It's never been ok. And it's not an "oh, well" situation.

Yes these people can be turned over to God, that's what I'm learning by going back to the faith I grew up with. But that's part of the peace that comes with the tradition of forgiveness and then letting God take care of those who hurt us so we don't have to. There's some reassurance there. It's not that I want revenge, and I like you want God to take care of him, wake him up, help turn him into a man of character so he doesn't continue down the path of selfishness and abuse. What a wasted life. And how sad to hurt so many people, leaving a path of destruction behind him, bosses, coworkers, mothers, daughters, wives and a little boy that he fathered... a little boy who'll have to one day come to terms with this. This man could care less about how many people he's hurt and impacted - he's right, he's always right, he does no wrong and he can't seem to even for a second look at himself, instead he'll go drown in more alcohol - and move on to the next bimbo.

Nope men like this don't change. The only hope is God. And thank goodness as I can quit trying to "help" someone who's not going to help himself.

Hi horsey2,

You really warmed my heart. It's sometimes so lonely here in "crazy-made" land. I wanted to share a little more with you that I think you might find encouraging.

Six years into my marriage I became Christian. My family always considered ourselves Christian growing up, but we almost never went to church. Just followed the ten commandments and the golden rule. So, after a tough move I decided that God was the only one who made life make sense and I decided to follow him faithfully. I didn't do so well at times, but I continued to grow in love and I've seen so many miracles in my life. I would never have survived my miserable marriage if it hadn't been for God. I thought God would heal my marriage, but now I know that God comes into our lives only when we let Him in and a narcissist won't allow God (or wisdom) in. So, the marriage cannot be healed.

I will also admit that I believe God used my marriage to fulfill my prayers. I always prayed for my marriage to be a blessing to all touched by it. I didn't understand how that would play out - of course I pictured the 'ideal' scenario, but through the struggles I learned so many lessons.

This is not to say that I encourage people to stay in destructive relationships, I don't. But, God can take anything at all and use it for good. I've seen him do it. I pray always that he does it and I am overwhelmed, overjoyed and breathless at the bad that he has used for good in my life.

So, I encourage all to continue on their quest for God and He will draw you close and you will be His forever, because you will see the TRUTH. He continues to lift the vail for me. He convicts me, yes, but He lifts me up so high, the joy is contageous. He makes me so alive.

That brings me to my last comment, and that is that no crazy-maker narcissist can ever take away your spirit, when it's fed by God. God can COMPLETELY heal you. Just keep seeking Him. He has healed my past and he is healing my present and he truly prepareth a table for me in the presence of my enemies as well as keeping me humble. That's not to say that we can live with evil people and not be affected. They will hurt us in the same way a plant will wither and die when poisoned. Some people are more toxic than others. But, we can heal. God loves us dearly and he doesn't settle for anything less than perfect tender loving care, because he wants us to thrive.

"WE" are His precious children.

Nope this man I married isnt' about to let God in, why the heck is he wanting to go to church with us on Sunday? Oh he did this when we were dating, the grew up in a church and we'll raise kids in church (but of course once married he wouldn't go, after baby he wouldn't go and wouldn't help with baby either)... church, good way to get the wife back. NOT THIS TIME.

I too pictured an ideal marriage - my folks were married over 40 years, my mom stayed by his side and it played out like a movie when my dad died. I flew home every month to be with my dad just to return to this pig that I married, sitting in the basement drinking, living down the hallway, taking showers whistling every morning, dressing in business suits, disregarding me as a human - with complete and outright digust. Sure I'm a dreamer, it's not the worst trait in the world to look for the best in people - but this was insane, this manipulative disgusting man - so far from my ideal, but not even meeting basic human decency needs...

I believe we can turn bad times into bitterness - and I've been down that road - or to grow. Like the preacher said on Sun, it's time to progresss, move on and stop living every year like it's our first year with God. I've been doing that many years.

I wonder, can you email me personally at swed332@yahoo.com to encourage me as I go through this divorce? you've been through what I have, yes I need god but some human support too. I'm going to make it step by step. today I decided I'd treat my divorce like a project in business - I've read David Allens new famous books about organizing, you dont' look at a project as a whole, you just write down the "next action" and keep all documents and long term lists in a file. I'm good at business if I can do it that way.

"Next action"... call counselor. Next action, call attorney. Next action, refile divorce. Action after that, clean out this man who's bragging to all of his alcoholic friend that I took him to the cleaners and every dime will go into a bank account for my little boy that deserves better then this.

Thanks, we are His precious children, He is our father, and even when I don't think I'm progressing I am learning and moving on in my own way - and I'm not gonna be sucked back into that disfunctional life this man seems to want to keep me in. I am so sick of it. He doesn't understand that going to church for me isn't just going through the actions, it's a way to improve and move on... he doesn't have a clue. And you are right, there's no God for men like this. My mom had a father like this - my grandfather - so mean and abusive, and manipulative, but of course he needed God in his dying days... the only day in his life he was nice...

Take care and God bless you for sharing with me....