Well. I am embarrassed to say that I'm not really sure, but I'll go with what Nia said, that it involves POJA, and the goal is to make something a "win-win" situation.

I feel that the answer is on the tip of my tongue....not...quite...getting.....it....yet!

Does this have something to do with the fact that in a marriage, there are three entities?

ME<HUSBAND<US

And that when I give to DH, ultimately it is for the good of "US"?

Okay, let me help!! And I will do so by just using Dr. Harley's words:


And then he goes on to say about the Giver and Taker:


And at least my understanding of Scripture pretty much supports what Dr. Harley is saying!

The giving should be seen as giving to the marriage?

And this is why God doesn't give us everything we want (or THINK we want), and give in to our every whim?

So, what you're getting at is, Christ didn't give us everything we WANT. But He gave us what we NEED.
AM I following you correctly?

Nia, there may be some sort of "disconnect" here. The Policy of Joint Agreement does not apply to all situations.

It applies primarily to "big" decisions that need to made that can affect the marriage. It also applies to "self-centered desires" that can affect the marriage, so I think I understand where you are trying to bring POJA into this situation. But that is NOT an appropriate way to "handle" issues related to "normal sex" between a husband and wife.

In this particular case, notonlywords* is discussing her problem within a biblically based marriage.

In that context, the Scripture "takes precedence" over "MB principles" if they happen to be in apparent disagreement.

The Scripture is quite clear that a husband's body does NOT belong to him, it belongs to his wife. Likewise, a wife's body does not belong to her, it belongs to her husband. THAT is one of the key principles in God's plan for marriage. The "problems" begin to creep in when either a husband or a wife begins to think that their body is "theirs" to do with as they please...and from there it's not a far leap to infidelity.

Taking the biblical position, committing infidelity is like trying to leap over the Grand Canyon. Taking the "humanistic" position, committing infidelity is like trying to leap over a crack in the sidewalk....it's really just a small step.

There is nothing wrong with discussing needs, sexual or other, with one's spouse. That's actually a very good thing. But bringing in a mindset of "what's in it for me" is NOT good, it is very bad and promotes a "self-centered" view rather than a biblical view of being a "helpmeet" to the husband (for the wife) and a sacrifical provider to the wife (for the husband). Nowhere does the Bible "council" for selfish "what's in it for me" attitudes. The Bible councils for the exact opposite.

In addition, the "what's in it for me" attitude predisposes the person who brings that attitude into the marriage to having an affair. It fosters an attitude of justification and rationalization for behaviors that are anything but "spiritual," and that includes the idea that if "my needs are not being met IN the marriage, then I will take it upon myself to get them met OUTSIDE the marriage." That, as we all know, is adultery in all of it's various forms.

So how does one get your "win/win" situation?

I would submit that it is "gotten" by applying the Word of God to the marriage. "It is better to give than to receive." "You do not get because you do not ask, and when you do ask, you do not ask according to God's will. You ask so that you can spend what you receive on your own pleasure." That's a paraphrase, but if you'd like the specific biblical references, they can be provided.


"GIVING IN is emotional dishonesty."

"Giving in" is NOT emotional dishonesty, it is faithfulness to one's marital promises. There is a whole passage on just this issue in 1 Corinthians 13 and it describes LOVE, as God views love. Specific to this issue of "giving in," as you seem to using it, God gives us HIS perspective when He says; "Love is patient, love is kind. It does NOT envy, it does NOT boast, it is NOT proud. It is NOT rude, it is NOT self-seeking, it is NOT easily angered, it keeps NO record of wrongs. Love does NOT delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It ALWAYS protects, ALWAYS trusts, ALWAYS hopes, ALWAYS perseveres. Love NEVER fails." (1Cor.12:4-8a, NIV, emphasis added)


Last comment on this "bring the Taker to the table" concept is that it is antithetical to any marriage, let alone a Christian marriage. It elevates the individual to the "top of the heap" and measures everyone else and their actions by the individuals own set of "standards," rather than by God's standards. This runs counter to the concept of "sacrifial love" in a marriage, to say nothing of the basic premise that when someone chooses to marry, they automatically also choose to "give up" certain "rights" and/or "behaviors" that might be retained by a "single person."

For a Christian, the issue really is quite simple. When a believer accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior, they also "surrender" their "autonomy" to God. We are God's servants, not masters, and we submit our will, our wants, our desires, our entire selves to God and HIS will. In that respect we are also Jesus' "bride" and He is our "husband." We do not put our own needs ahead of Jesus, who showed us all how a loving bridegroom relates to a "spouse" who is "unloveable" and "unworthy" and "self-centered."

And all of that is embodied in most "traditional" wedding vows as the bride and groom make their promises to each other and to God regarding their "one flesh" marriage.

God bless.

Yep!! You got it! Remember, you are no longer just NOW. You are Mrs. NOW. That is a different person.

God said He joined you and Mr. NOW as "one flesh." That means you are no longer two distinct individuals. You have become one.

Now, if you try to become two...it is like trying to separate a living person in two...all you manage to do is kill the whole thing. This is what divorce does! It "kills" the marriage (the body), and "kills" the two parts (husband and wife).

That is why this is all so painful (divorce, infidelity, etc). We are literally killing a living being...our marriage. Our one flesh relationship, which includes Christ.

What we should be doing is understanding that since we are one flesh, it is good if things work out for the other party...because that means it is good for us too. If I eat, and my right arm gets nourishment...so does my left. That is because they are one flesh. What they do for each other directly impacts themselves.

Once we understand this...then meeting needs no longer looks like a "chore" I do for someone else...but also something I do for myself!

Yes!! You see, you really arent confused on any of this! You know all of this! You really do.

And in my personal situation, I was BOTH...first I was the consummate Giver....and I set myself up for eventually letting my taker take over?

And what ForeverHers just stated about what Scripture says is in direct alignment to the MB principles of meeting needs...and about the Giver and Taker.

So for my marriage, it could have gone either way...

I was the Giver (my husband agrees), and being too much that way, he could have been the one who strayed, or me...and it was me, unfortunately.
He has said he enjoyed being the Taker... but his Taker didn't become destructive like I did. Why?

Ah, I think this is the key.

Yes, and no. Here's the rub. FH was correct...God calls on us to give unconditionally! To give without expectation of anything in return. And I dont believe the MB principles negate this.

What I believe it is saying here is that if we just continue to give, without applying the other principles (like POJA, like negotiating, etc) then we set the Taker to want to rear its ugly head.

So, when people are working on their marriage and come here, they are taught to meet needs and avoid love busters. They are also taught to protect themselves from abusive behavior, from infidelity, etc. Plan B is all about protecting the BS, for example.

In the end, I think FH would agree with me on this next statement. And that is that the Taker is irrelevent if I am relying on Jesus to meet my needs! Then, as I give to my spouse, I am receiving from Christ. But most Christians do not have that kind of relationship with God. I didnt until just a few years ago.

Which is why my wife asks me how I could continue to love her thru the 4 years of he!!, how I could maintain my love for her? What she was asking basically was why my Taker didnt take over.

Simple. My God will provide for all of my needs in Christ Jesus. I let Him take care of my needs.

Hope that helps!

I had a long talk with Steve Harley one day. He told me about the concept of the "Giver's Snap." It is where the giver gives so much, that eventually it just "snaps" and the Taker goes into overdrive. It is a Super Taker, so to speak. Not only does it shove the Gier out of the way...it hits the Giver upside the head with a baseball bat and shoves it into a locked closet!!

With this Super Taker, it completely justifies everything it does. "I have given long enough...I deserve...etc" The key word is "I."

Steve believes it is very hard to get this Taker to allow the Giver back in. The best way is to reason with the Taker...to show the Taker that it is in its best interests to allow the Giver back in. That the Taker will get what it wants if it allows the Giver to operate also.

My wife's situation almost mirrors this. She still is a Taker! But, she has allowed her Giver to operate again because she has been shown that in the end, she will get more of what she wants and needs if she allows the Giver to operate also.

Mortarman,

Absolutely, this has helped me a great deal!

FH, you have helped me a lot, too.

Definitely a lot to chew on here, and I will do just that, to make sure it sinks in and takes hold.

THANK YOU SO MUCH!

Wow, I see myself there, too! I think I have been giving , albeit superficially at times, but my Taker is in there sulking!
It's almost as though I've put up a wall....my Taker is protesting my Giver, trying to hold it back. Yup, I feel that internal struggle without a doubt.

No problem. Prayers have been sent for you and Mr. NOW!! You are my sister in Christ. And family always takes care of its own!

And now you know why Dr. Harley pushes the idea of POJA and negotiation. It is because the Taker will stand down if it feels that it had a part in the decisions that are being made.

You have no idea how much that means to me, MM!

One more question....hope you don't mind!

Does the Taker in one spouse ever have trouble accepting the Giver in the other spouse?

I fear that this is part of my problem, that I have somehow put up a wall to prevent DH's Giver from giving! Maybe it stems from distrust of the Giver in myself!? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Not sure...I dont know your full situation. Usually, a Taker will take wherever it can get its needs met, if it is in charge! Thus...infidelity!!

It could be that your husband's giver, since he was such a Taker for so long...is foreign to you. So, you dont want to trust it because it might not be real...or might be pulled away.

I think maybe it is a time issue. A time to get used to trusting him, and what he can do for you and your needs. If he is committed to being the husband he should, and allowing himself to meet your needs the way you need them met...then I doubt your mistrust of his Giver will last very long!!

When we reconciled back in November, my wife said the same things. She didnt know if she could trust the "changes" in me.

Now? She believes in the "changes." She welcomes my Giver. She even has begun to depend on what I do for her again.