Two Sides Of The Story
* HER SIDE OF THE STORY

My husband was in an odd mood Saturday night. We planned to meet at a cafe for a drink
spent the afternoon shopping with the girls and I thought it might have been my
I was a bit later than I promised but he didn't say anything about it. I don't remember
doing anything to make him upset, but I could tell there was something wrong.

The conversation was quite slow going so I thought we should go off to someplace
intimate so we could talk more privately. We went to this restaurant and he was STILL
acting a bit funny. I was getting really worried, what did I do? What was bothering him?
Was he mad at me?

I tried to cheer him up, but started to wonder what was bothering him. Was it me or
something else? I asked him if he was upset with me, he said no. But I wasn't really sure.
In the car on the way back home, I said that I loved him deeply and he just put his arm
around me. I didn't know what the heck that meant because, you know, he didn't say it
back or anything. We finally got back home and I was wondering if he was going to
leave me! So I tried to get him to talk but he just switched on the TV.

Reluctantly, I said I was going to go to bed. Then after about 10 minutes, he joined
me and to my surprise, we made love. But, he still seemed really distracted, so afterwards
I wanted to confront him but didn't, so I just cried myself to sleep. I just don't know what
to do anymore. I mean, I really think he's seeing someone else.

* HIS SIDE OF THE STORY

Played badly today --- shot 97 - - -can't putt for crap! Felt kind of tired.

Got laid though.

MM,

This is kinda funny...I remember a while back my DH told me that there really truly isn't a lot going on in his head...it always baffles him how I can take a simple innocuous behavior or comment from him and end up thinking he hates me!
So it's true, then....men are really that simple?
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Actually, Mortarman, there is only one line. The stuff about the golf game is just filler..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

well, maybe yiu really ARE that simple.
my H really is NOT. he will tell you so.
I wonder how many men try to tell themselves they are simple and then they turn to OW or alchohol or some other addiction to avoid the truth.

1st Peter 3:7, “Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with [them] according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.”

The first part of this says to dwell with your wives in an understanding way. In a different translation, it says to know your wife. You cant meet needs you don’t understand. But here is the problem…understanding a woman. That is like going to a foreign country, with another language!! Men are told to study the Bible, and told here to study their wives.

Many times your wife speaks from how she feels, and you are answering what she should do. She may be sitting there sharing a problem that she has, and you sit there coming up with a solution to a problem she has not fully expressed yet. The reason we men want to come up with a solution for this problem that she hasn’t fully explained is that we don’t want to take the time to hear all of that. In our mind, she is taking two hours to explain something that really only takes 5 minutes. So what we offer to do is to cut out an hour and 55 minutes of conversation and get to the point. “Let me help you…this is how you fix that. Let me help you so we don’t have to spend 2 hours discussing it.”

But we men don’t understand. In men language, we say a word and we understand the surface meaning of the word…and we act on it. But she wants to describe that thing. You see, she doesn’t just want you to understand it intellectually…she wants you to feel it with her. She wants you to “emote” with her. That’s why this passage says to dwell with your wives, which in the Greek means to live with her. To spend time with her. It means be there long enough to understand…and that means time. That’s why when you offer a solution, she is getting mad. You are wondering why she is getting mad over a problem you are trying to fix? Well, it is because she wants to know that you are more concerned about her than her problem. She doesn’t just want you to fix the problem…she wants you to “fix” her while helping to fix the problem. That takes time, because part of her getting “fixed” is her ability to fully express. It takes time to learn a foreign language. We must dwell with her long enough in order to understand her needs. It takes that to not only understand what her needs are, but also how she feels about them. And that takes a servant.

I believe there are exceptions to every so-called rule....and I've always had a hard time BELIEVING men are that simple. I wish I knew for sure. Maybe some are, and some are not...so how can you tell?

Pep,
Yep, that's me...though I'm working on it. When DH is in a grumpy mood, I assume he is mad at ME for some reason. And I think that heightened after the affair, at least for a while. But sometimes, it still pops up on me.

MM, have you ever tried to "fix" your wife's problems? There were a few times in our marriage (and once BEFORE we were married) that I would vent and vent about the same problem over and over, and DH got sick of hearing me complain so he took things into his own hands and tried to FIX it for me. He didn't understand I just wanted to vent. Of course, now I understand how frustrating it would be for him to have to listen to me complain about the same thing over and over. I still didn't want him to fix it!

Mark,
This is part of what bothers me....can you see how women feel like they are only good for two things, based on this statement? I struggle with this a lot, feeling as though that is all I am to DH....that he could care less if I had feelings, that he doesn't want to have to listen to them, and I end up feeling like less than a whole person to him.
And I sit there thinking, Well gee, DH, you can get those two things ANYWHERE....so what exactly IS so special about me?

NOW

"To me, the single biggest problem in marriages today is the "confusion" about the roles of husbands and wives, because "pride and "individuality" gets in the way of conversation and willingness to meet the spouse's needs, whatever those needs happen to be. What replaces loving submission to the other spouse's needs is a "what's in it for me?" attitude and the emotional differences that we tend to project onto our spouse (if it were ME, I would do it THIS way....)."


FH, thanks for your input!

If I think about this statement, I would have to agree...when I was putting FH's needs above my own, I was ok. And when i started to think more about how MY needs weren't being met, that is when I got into trouble.
And here is where I hit a block with Marriage Builder's principles....ideally, they work....but what about in a situation where one spouse is NOT doing their "share", or to put it another way, not fulfilling their role as husband or wife? What does MB say to do? And what does God say to do? I'm not clear on that.
This is where I am stuck. Do I meet DH's needs without any thought to my own? And if I do that, won't I end up as before, looking elsewhere for them, if he fails to meet them? Or, am I supposed to get to a point where my needs are not important, even to me?

I hope you can understand what I'm asking...it's very hard to articulate!

Thanks for any input!

NOW

Nia, thank you....but that's just it. Spirituality is very important to me, so whenever I have a problem, I always ask, what does the Bible say about it? And that's the thing, I don't know anywhere in the Bible where it says to bring your taker to the table and ask "what's in it for me"...in fact, the Bible says quite the opposite!
So on one hand, I can see the "wisdom" in the MB philosophies, but I can't mesh them with Biblical principles.

I've always thought of "giving in" as putting someone else's needs above your own, and "denying yourself" for the good of someone else....not as dishonesty.
I can see where giving in would not always be in the best interest of the other, though.

maybe you are missing or misinterpretting some things in the Bible.
I love the Bible but it was translated a long time ago.
by men

Surrendering to Your Husband...(1 Peter 3:5-6)

“For in this way in former times the holy women also, who hoped in God, used to adorn themselves, being submissive to their own husbands; just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, and you have become her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear.”

In a courtroom, if you get upset at the proceedings…you don’t like what is going on…and you blurt out…screaming, yelling…in defense of yourself…even if you are right and the person on the other side is wrong, the judge will say “you are out of order.” In fact, if you continue ranting and raving…even if you are right…he will hold you in contempt of court. Because you have dishonored the courtroom.

There are many women today living in contempt of God’s court by their refusal to surrender to God’s divine order. And that order is clear. To respect your husband. The first issue isn’t that your husband is wrong and you are right. Because as we have already discussed respect recognizes his position as head. Even if you disagree with his point.

Hopefully you have learned so far that submission does not mean that you become a doormat, being a punching bag, being disregarded. That is NOT Biblical submission.

The people that hate the word submission hate the definition of the word that is different than they way God defines it. Biblical submission is a willing placing yourself under the authority of another to accomplish a common program. But many women are imprisoned in their rebellion and stubbornness because they refuse the divine order…and God Himself holds them in contempt of court.

So instead of doing it God’s way…they use the dishonor of their tongues to work against God rather than cooperate with God. Only to find themselves still incarcerated in a situation they cannot emotionally break free from.

Peter says however that when a woman does it God’s way, she can change her husband without a word. Now I know that is hard to believe, but that’s what God says. So the issue is whether you are going to let God be true and every man a liar.

Proverbs 25:24 says: ”It is better to live in the corner of the roof then in a house shared with a contentious woman.” Proverbs 27:15 says: ”A constant dripping on a day of steady rain and a contentious woman are all alike.” Drip, drip, drip, drip, drip, drip…

God says you will never accomplish your goal by nagging. And you ought to know that because you have been doing it for years and it hasn’t worked. Maybe trying it God’s way…

Today the question is very simple as we deal with the last two verses, verses 5 and 6 of 1st Peter 3. Are you going to surrender? Put your hands up? Are you going to say to God “I surrender.” Or are you going to say to God “I’m not doing that.” These two verses calls you to surrender to God’s command to respect your husband.

He first off says that you are going to need some models of holy behavior. He says “like the holy women of old.” He says to the New Testament crowd…you are going to have trouble finding this kind of woman today. With this Gen X generation…liberated generation…feminism generation. You are not going to find what I am talking about…you are going to have to go back to former women. Women who understood this.

We already saw in the last post that God calls this kind of woman rare. The excellent woman of Proverbs 31 is hard to find. It is hard to find holy women. And he is defining holy in the context of respect for your husband. Your holiness before God is directly related to your reverence for your husband. If you disrespect your husband (remember, that doesn’t mean you have to agree with him)…but if you dishonor his position before God, you are not a holy woman.

Wait a minute…maybe you didn’t hear that. It says the HOLY women…we are talking about the women set apart from God, the ladies who loved God, the women who were close to God…you always knew it because it showed up because of the way they treated their husbands.

So don’t tell me you are close to God and you talk to your husband like a dog. Don’t tell me you are close to God when you put your husband down with your friends or neighbors or even your children. He says the holy women of old didn’t do that.

They may not have agreed with their husbands (and would have registered their disagreements with him). They would have registered their complaints and shared their concerns. But they always honored his positions head.

We set ourselves up for failure in this new generation. You often hear people say, or parents say about their daughters…”I have to find me a strong man for my daughter.” Or, “she will run right over him.” Now, you have already set her up to be a non-submissive woman. Because what you have set her up to look for is the weaknesses in the man that she can run over. You have set her up to find his faults and use those as an excuse to take over.

God said to Adam…I am going to prepare you a helpmate. Now, in order for Adam to be prepared a helpmate, Adam first had to need help. God didn’t provide him a helpmate and he didn’t need help. The boy needed help!! Adam had his limitations.

The problem is that we have misunderstood the word “helpmate.” We define helpmate as “cooking, cleaning, and doing all the other stuff that we can pay to have someone not married to him to do.” You don’t need to be a wife to be a good cook. You don’t need to be a wife to clean up…if you make enough money, you can get a maid to do all of that. The woman in Proverbs 31 had maids…she didn’t have to do all of that cooking and cleaning.

This stuff isn’t the primary way you help your husband. It is a way…but not the primary way. The primary way you help your husband is to help him to become the leader God has appointed him to be. And you cannot help him to become the leader if you are tearing down his leadership role at the same time. So instead of denigrating it, you ought to come alongside and help him be better at it.

You ought to be his chief fan, his chief encourager. His chief support system. Many men would rather go out to eat with someone that is encouraging him, than eat at home with a good cook who has no respect for him. The main way you help him is bolstering him up…lifting him up.

But why aren’t more women doing this? Well, verse 5 says it is because they aren’t hanging out with holy women. You’re hanging out with your unholy girlfriends…you’re watching unholy television…you’re listening to unholy radio…you’re reading unholy books…so you become an unholy wife.

He says if you want to do this right, you need to hang out with the right company. We have mothers raising daughters to disrespect their future husbands and they don’t even know it. Because they are being set up to dishonor, rather than to be the helper to make him a better leader. That’s why Titus 2:3 puts it this way: ”Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, {to be} sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored. Older means women that have already gone through things, already raised their children. You don’t go to someone that has been married five times for advice on how to respect a man. You want the advice from someone that has been in the ups and downs, at least since they have been saved, with one man. And didn’t run away, didn’t quit, didn’t throw in the towel.

Notice the last part of that Scripture…”so that the word of God will not be dishonored.” God’s motivation here isn’t to please society, He isn’t trying to please your feminist friends, He isn’t trying to please what the media is telling you…God says “I’m concerned about My Word. I’m concerned about My name. I’m concerned about My reputation.”

I know its hard living with some men. I know its hard dealing with some men. I know its hard following a parked car. I know its difficult trying to get somewhere when the man is not where he is supposed to be. So what you need are some older women who aren’t telling you “Well, girl…I’d leave him if I were you.” Who aren’t telling you “Well, I wouldn’t take that from him.” Unless it is of course violating a higher Biblical principle. God is not telling you to stay there and be beat up on or that kind of thing.

But because he isn’t all that he should be, or he isn’t what you thought he would be…you need older women who are giving you holy information. You need to hang out with God’s Ring of Honor. He says that the holy women were women who loved God and it showed up by how they reverenced their husbands.

You see Satan got Eve to disregard Adam. I don’t know if you knew that or not. Now it is Adam’s fault…the Bible holds Adam responsible for what happened in the Garden. And every man will be held accountable for his home before God. God will not ask about your wife, regardless of her personality or her flaws. He is going to ask every man. But it was set up by the Devil. And the way it was set up by the Devil was that Satan went to Eve and got her to disregard Adam. Her every move never included reverencing her head. He got her to pay no attention to Adam. Adam at this point is passive. He has become the non-leader…because he was standing right there when the snake was talking to his wife. You see, some people think Adam was a long way off. Nope. He was standing right there.

Now, we have a failed man…a passive man, not taking the leadership role. But instead of her passing it off to him in order to force him to take the leadership role, she took it herself. And when she did this, she reversed the roles in the Garden. Her attitude was “Since you aren’t going to be the leader, then I am going to be the leader.”

When she reversed the roles, the snake had her. She listened to the snake. And too many women are listening to the snakes in their lives, who mean no good giving you advice to disregard the Word of God. Because Satan got Eve to disregard the Word of God.

So, then there was a curse. “Your desire shall be unto your husband, and he shall rule over you.” That was the curse. The curse that came because of Adam and Eve’s sin was the Battle of the Sexes. The man is going to want to rule because he is made to rule (even though he is a bad ruler), and the woman is going to not want to be ruled. You are going to rebel against that.

That’s the curse. The battle we are having in our homes comes from this curse. But once you accept Christ, you are redeemed from the curse. Satan doesn’t want you to know that you are redeemed from the curse. That you don’t have to fight anymore for that position of head. But you need holy women to tell you this. Women who love God and reverence their husband. They may torrently disagree with their husband…but they always honor him.

Now, what motivated these holy women to do this? Well, verse 5 says that the holy women also hoped in God. This is the key to the whole thing here. They hoped in God.

Ladies…God wants to know “do you trust Him?” God wants to know “do you believe Him?” Here it is…if you believe your husband makes the final decisions, you are going to rebel against that. If you believe God makes the final decisions, then you wont. This is the major flaw in most homes when it comes to the wife. The wife doesn’t believe God overrules her husband. She believes “he’s the head…therefore he makes the final decision.” No way!! The Bible says for you to submit to your husband as to something bigger than your husband.

God says you go do your part, but you hope in God. You trust in the Lord. Now its one thing to trust in the Lord when you don’t have any problems. It’s one thing to trust in the Lord when he is the perfect leader and lover. But if he is that good, you may not see your need for the Lord. Your need comes from the Lord when your husband isn’t up to snuff. When his limitations show.

Do you believe God has the final word? The holy women of old kept their eyes on God…not their husbands. The holy women of old said “Okay, I don’t feel good about it, I don’t like it, I don’t prefer it, I think you ought to do it another way…but I am going to trust God. I am going to believe God is big enough and powerful enough to overrule this decision if it is wrong.”

Now that is going to take a little faith. So, the question is what do you think about God…not what you think about your husband.

One day a teenager lost one of his contacts on the carport as he was shooting baskets. He searched and searched for an hour for that contact. Not being able to find it, he went in and asked his mother to help. Well, his mom went out and in all of about 2 minutes, she found the contact lens. Stunned, the sons asked “Mom, how did you do that? I looked for almost an hour…and you find it in two minutes. How is that possible?” She replied “Simple, son. We weren’t looking for the same thing. You were looking for a piece of plastic…I was looking for $75.” In other words, it is all in your perspective.

When you look at your husband through the eyes of God, things will become clearer. When you look at him through your eyes, you will never find what you are looking for. You have been looking for him to change, nagging him to change…you have done all of this and nothing has happened. He wont change. You cant find a solution. Well, you aren’t looking with the right eyes.

They hoped in God and things became clear. Look at Mary…the virgin Mary. Mary is just minding her business and an angel comes and tells her “You’re going to have a baby.” She says “But I have never been with a man.” Angel replies “You’re still going to have a baby…God says so.” Now, if I’m going to get pregnant and I’m not married, this is going to create a few problems in my life. That could be a pretty embarrassing situation.

Do you know what Mary said? “May it be unto me as You have said.” You talk about something that doesn’t make sense. I am sure she found it difficult to wrap her mind around this and to get on board. But she still said “may it be unto me as you have said.” In other words…”I’ll take my risk with you, Lord.” Because faith involves risk. There is no way around that.

The question is “are you willing to bank on God?”

When you got married, you surrendered some things. The first thing you surrendered was your name. You gave up the name of your daddy. Another thing you surrendered was your independence. In fact, you surrendered your destiny. His job transferred…and you had to go. You even surrendered your will.

You have spent all of your married life trying to get all of that back. You’ve been trying to get your name back, your independence back, your destiny back, your will back. And rather than getting on the onramp to merge into where God is trying to take you…you are spending all of your time looking for an off ramp. You thought you married the ideal…discovered it has become a raw deal…and now you want a new deal. Many women want to do their own remodeling…and they create a mess.

Let me tell you what the holy women of old thought. They thought “Okay, I’m going to respect my husband even though I may not like what he is doing. I am going to honor his position, and then I’m going to duck so God can hit him upside his head.” But if you don’t believe God is going to get him if you get out of the way…then you are going to stay in the way and God wont touch Him. Read the story of Nabal and Abigail in the Bible (1st Samuel 25)…about how she honored her husband who was a fool. And how God came to her aid…and how her life worked out.

God can deal with your husband…you get out of the way!!! If you will just get out of the way, God can deal with that man, be he a fool or not. And the way you get out of the way is not by disappearing, but by relating to him with respect and honor.

But then Peter comes to verse six, where he selects one particular holy woman in describing the manner of your surrender. You’ve been fighting for a long time…God is saying “stick ‘em up.” And surrender to your Biblical role.

“Thus Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord.” I know this stuff is ticking you ladies off right now, isn’t it? She showed respect in her actions (she obeyed Abraham), and it was verbal (she called him lord). Your respect should be visible and verbal. You’re not to talk to him decent but treat him bad. Nor are you to treat him decent but talk to him like a dog.

It said that she called Abraham “lord.” If you look back at their story, you can realize that Abraham didn’t deserve her calling him lord. Go back and read their story. Abraham had failed Sarah on many occasions. Because of one of the issues and the fact that Sarah had obeyed with faith, God allowed Sarah to get pregnant. So what, you say? Well, when she got pregnant, Sarah was 90 years old.

God told Sarah in Genesis 18 that she was going to get pregnant. When she first heard this, it says that she laughed. She was laughing for two reasons. First because she was 90 years old. You don’t get pregnant when you are 90 years old. That is a biological impossibility.

She was laughing for a second reason. The Bible says that she says “shall I have pleasure of my lord?” In other words, she is saying we have two problems here. We have problem number one that I cant get pregnant, and problem number two…which is Viagra super-sized cannot help that man.

In other words, she was saying that what you are talking about is an impossibility. This could never happen. It is impossible. And I know some of you women are living with men where you are saying it is impossible…he wont change. This wont work. You are dealing with an impossibility as far as you can see.

In Genesis 18, God spoke to her in her laughter and said “What are you laughing at?” His point was…are you laughing at God? We aren’t given her response in Genesis 18, but we do get her response in Hebrews 11:11-12:


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” By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised. Therefore there was born even of one man, and him as good as dead at that, {as many descendants} AS THE STARS OF HEAVEN IN NUMBER, AND INNUMERABLE AS THE SAND WHICH IS BY THE SEASHORE.”


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She respected her husband. Abraham had failures. He had weaknesses and spiritual limitations. But she decided “I’m going to stop laughing and start trusting.”

I know a lot of you ladies are laughing at this series of posts. I can hear you now: “No way. I’m not doing that. Aint gonna do it.” And you are laughing and God wants to know “Who are you laughing at?”

If you will position yourself as a woman of faith…if you can call him lord. “My lord…my master…my head. My leader. You may be a bad leader, but you’re my leader. I am going to honor that position as my head. I am going to stop fighting God.” God turned her laughter into faith.

Now I know what you are thinking. You’re thinking “I’m scared. At least when I am in rebellion, I can feel good about it because I am in control, I am protecting myself.” Well, please read the end of verse six, it says ”if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear.” God is saying “there is nothing to be afraid of…I’ve got your back.” God says “I have your back. Don’t be afraid that he is going to take advantage of you.”

Now you are saying “Once I tell my husband he’s the leader, he isn’t going to keep it within the bounds of this post. He’s going to be all over the place ‘I’m the leader!! Come here, woman…doesn’t the Bible say I’m the leader?’ He is going to abuse this.” Well, God is saying “don’t be scared, I’ve got your back!!” Because just like he is telling you he is your leader, I’m going to find a way to tell him that I’m his leader.

Sarah, even though Abraham was weak and made mistakes…she wasn’t afraid. She built him up. And what came of that? Well, a miracle. Look, if your husband is 100 and you’re 90 and you get pregnant…we are talking a bona fide miracle.

Isn’t that what you need…a miracle? Wouldn’t it be miraculous that God changed your husband so that he would love you more, that he becomes a savior, a sanctifier and a satisfier? That’s going to take a miracle. And you have tried for 5 years and ten years and 20 years to change him. But you have never honored his position the way you should…you have blocked your miracle.

“But I’m scared.” Scared of who…God? God says He has your back. 1st Corinthians 11 says that if you dishonor your head, the angels will not help you. When you stop cussing him out, stop trying to change him…but instead you send smoke signals up to Him…He will come over, find out where you are…and be your deliverer.

So, it’s time to see what God can do because you are cooperating…because you have surrendered.

This kind of thinking leads to all kinds of problems for both of you. If you always wonder if he only wants you for SF and food, it will drive you nuts trying to make it be about something "deeper." But for him, the SF and food and the fact that those have been taken care of in his mind allow him to delve deeper and look for other things. You have your ENs in your order and he has his in his order. It doesn't make either right or wrong; it only makes them different.

I think Mimi expresses it very well. The word "simple" doesnt do this justice. Women see men not wanting to discuss emotions like...well, like women do...and think that we are "simple."

It is just that our way of expression, what we need...is simple. It requires less "emoting."

Mimi talks about a meal and sex. She has it right. My wife can talk about all day how much she loves me, etc. But what hits me the most is when she does something that shows me this. Like the meal. Like sex. It is "emoting" in a different way.

pep?
where are you? you can explain this better than i can.

Wow....thank you so much for posting this.

I can see now, I lost my faith in God where my marriage and husband were concerned.
I can see myself very clearly in Eve's shoes, too.

THe only thing I would disagree with in that excerpt is where it says a "curse" was put on men and woman. I think it was that God was pointing out what the consequences were going to be, not because He doled them out, but that was the natural consequence of their sin, and it was more a "heads up", what to watch out for kind of statement.

Aside from that, it was very helpful indeed. I already feel "softer" towards my husband....he's doing the best he can, and I am to be his Helper, not his God.

NOW

Gen 3:16 To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you."

I think Mimi expresses it very well. The word "simple" doesnt do this justice. Women see men not wanting to discuss emotions like...well, like women do...and think that we are "simple."

It is just that our way of expression, what we need...is simple. It requires less "emoting."

Mimi talks about a meal and sex. She has it right. My wife can talk about all day how much she loves me, etc. But what hits me the most is when she does something that shows me this. Like the meal. Like sex. It is "emoting" in a different way.

I mean, why would God purposely make marriage difficult as a consequence?

MM, there is still so much I don't understand about God, the Bible, etc.

I wonder, why did God do that? Assuming God is loving in everything He does, I can't understand how increasing our pain in childbirth would be a loving gesture!

To me, it just sounds like God is adding to an already horrible situation that Adam and Eve brought upon themselves.

I mean, why would God purposely make marriage difficult as a consequence?

Nia, you're doing GREAT

pep

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maybe you are missing or misinterpretting some things in the Bible.
I love the Bible but it was translated a long time ago.
by men


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Gee whiz, I don't know how to take this!

It seems "simple" to us women, but it's not simple, just different..

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
thanks.
I am not so sure NOW understood.

I take issue w/ men trying to call themselves simple....simple is stupid.
i think it's a cop out.
men have so much more potential in my book.

They had decided to let the woman be the man, and the man be the woman. So, God honored that decision by making it permanent. Or so it would seem!!

simple as the opposite of complicated

not simple as the opposite of smart

That's what I mean, it wasn't that God said "This is what I'm going to make happen", like a curse/punishment...it was Him allowing us to face the consequences of our own decisions, allowing free will.

So it is a punishment we have brought down upon ourselves, not one from God.

Unless one thinks God's "allowing" is some sort of punishment in itself. (which I don't!)

Ok, and this is why i want to get my marriage counseling from the Bible, ya know? Because humans are so flawed, even when it "sounds" good, it might not be.(I'm thinking about MB here, and myriads of other experts!)

NOW

Oh Nia, I understand what you're saying about men not being as "simple" as all that....I agree it IS more a personality trait than a "man" thing.

What I have trouble with is where the giver/taker theory fits in with what the Bible says, especially where marriage is concerned.

Oh Nia, I understand what you're saying about men not being as "simple" as all that....I agree it IS more a personality trait than a "man" thing.

What I have trouble with is where the giver/taker theory fits in with what the Bible says, especially where marriage is concerned.

Mortarman,

It is because of the biblical principle that says it is more blessed to give than to receive. It is because Christ met our needs without expecting us to meet any of His. It is because we are called to be like Christ. We are each to esteem the other more highly than ourselves.

What am I missing? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

If something "feels" more positive, though, does that make it right?

Well. I am embarrassed to say that I'm not really sure, but I'll go with what Nia said, that it involves POJA, and the goal is to make something a "win-win" situation.

I feel that the answer is on the tip of my tongue....not...quite...getting.....it....yet!

The Giver is the part of you that follows the rule: do whatever you can to make the other person happy and avoid anything that makes the other person unhappy, even if it makes you unhappy. It's the part of you that wants to make a difference in the lives of others, and it grows out of a basic instinct that we all share, a deep reservoir of love and concern for those around us.

But the Giver is only half of the story. The other half is the Taker. It's the part of you that follows the rule: do whatever you can to make yourself happy and avoid anything that makes yourself unhappy, even if it makes others unhappy. It's the part of you that wants the most out of life, and it grows out of your basic instinct for self-preservation.

In everyday life, our Givers and Takers usually solve problems together. They recognize our need to give and take simultaneously. For example, when we buy groceries, we give money and take groceries. We don't give more money than the grocer charges us and we don't take groceries without paying for them.

But in marriage, a strange thing happens to the way our Givers and Takers operate. They seem to work independently of each other. Either the Giver is in charge, and we give unconditionally to our spouses, or the Taker is in charge where we take what we want from our spouses without giving anything in return.

When the Giver is in charge, we are loving and considerate. But we tend to make personal sacrifices to see to it that our spouses are happy and fulfilled, because our Takers are not there to defend our personal interests and our Givers do not care how we feel.

But when the Taker is in charge, we are rude, demanding and inconsiderate. All we seem to think about is ourselves, and what our spouses can do to make us happy. We expect our spouses to make sacrifices for us, because our Takers don't care how our spouses feel.

I want to emphasize to you that this is normal behavior in marriage. You might think you're married to a crazy person, or you may think you're crazy yourself, but let me assure you, marriage is one of the very few conditions that bring out the pure Giver and Taker in each of us. And that usually makes us seem much crazier than we really are.

It should be no surprise to you that it isn't the Giver that ruins marriages -- it's the Taker. But the Giver plays a very important role in creating the problem. It's the effort of the Giver to give our spouses anything they want that sets up the Taker for it's destructive acts. After you have been giving, giving, giving to your spouse, and receiving little in return (because you haven't bargained for much), your Taker rises up to straighten out the situation. It sees the unfairness of it all, and steps in to balance the books. But instead of coming to a more balanced arrangement, where you get something for what you give, the Taker just moves the Giver out of the picture altogether. It says, "I've been giving enough, now it's your turn to give."

Sound familiar? We've all been through it, but it doesn't work. All our Takers do is rouse our spouses' Taker and before we can say, "Bull in a china closet," we're having fight.

Which brings up a very important observation -- The Taker's instinctive strategy for getting what we need in marriage is to make demands, show disrespect and have an angry outburst. Does that also sound familiar? They are the stupid instincts that I call, Love Busters. And that's precisely what the Taker usually does when given control of our marriage -- they ruin the love we have for each other.

It's the effort of the Giver to give our spouses anything they want that sets up the Taker for it's destructive acts.

NOW,


what does MB say?
poja.
and when negotiating you need to bring your taker to the table and ask, "What's in it for me?" make it a win'win situation.
GIVING IN is emotional dishonesty.

Does this have something to do with the fact that in a marriage, there are three entities?

ME<HUSBAND<US

And that when I give to DH, ultimately it is for the good of "US"?

And this is why God doesn't give us everything we want (or THINK we want), and give in to our every whim?

So, what you're getting at is, Christ didn't give us everything we WANT. But He gave us what we NEED.
AM I following you correctly?

"You do not get because you do not ask, and when you do ask, you do not ask according to God's will. You ask so that you can spend what you receive on your own pleasure."

And in my personal situation, I was BOTH...first I was the consummate Giver....and I set myself up for eventually letting my taker take over?

So for my marriage, it could have gone either way...

I was the Giver (my husband agrees), and being too much that way, he could have been the one who strayed, or me...and it was me, unfortunately.
He has said he enjoyed being the Taker... but his Taker didn't become destructive like I did. Why?

Mortarman,

Absolutely, this has helped me a great deal!

FH, you have helped me a lot, too.

Definitely a lot to chew on here, and I will do just that, to make sure it sinks in and takes hold.

THANK YOU SO MUCH!

Wow, I see myself there, too! I think I have been giving , albeit superficially at times, but my Taker is in there sulking!
It's almost as though I've put up a wall....my Taker is protesting my Giver, trying to hold it back. Yup, I feel that internal struggle without a doubt.

You have no idea how much that means to me, MM!

One more question....hope you don't mind!

Does the Taker in one spouse ever have trouble accepting the Giver in the other spouse?

I fear that this is part of my problem, that I have somehow put up a wall to prevent DH's Giver from giving! Maybe it stems from distrust of the Giver in myself!? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

MM and FH

Question on Forgiveness if you don't mind.

When a spouse asks for forgiveness, I know we are required to forgive. Can we ask questions about what we are being asked to forgive before we give them our forgiveness? I understand our forgiveness should not be based on their answers and mine was not. However I know through my readings that when I give forgiveness I need to leave it alone and not bring it up again. I know myself enough that if I don't ask the questions that it would still hang there.

Thanks....that sounds awesome! I want that, too.

It's time for me to really appreciate what he has done and is doing.

really

Time to let myself take the risk. I've been too afraid, too selfish to open myself up to intimacy.

Time to take him at his word....he did, after all, keep his.

I could use a best friend, and he's been standing right in front of me all this time.

It's been the same experience for me with God....I finally have gotten to a place where I truly trust HIM. I actually DO believe HIM, finally. I'm no longer just saying that I do. And why would He help us save our marriage, bring us all this way from Dday, just to make a fool of me/DH and his plans for us? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It's time for me to trust God, and show Him that I do, by letting myself become vulnerable to my husband again.

This stuff is simple...but it aint easy!

MM and FH

Question on Forgiveness if you don't mind.

When a spouse asks for forgiveness, I know we are required to forgive. Can we ask questions about what we are being asked to forgive before we give them our forgiveness? I understand our forgiveness should not be based on their answers and mine was not. However I know through my readings that when I give forgiveness I need to leave it alone and not bring it up again. I know myself enough that if I don't ask the questions that it would still hang there.

I also wanted to talk about the POJA stuff brought up with Nia.

I see how it would work in most situations but I don't think it would work in every one. For example, the last house we lived in we were leasing (we intended to buy it at some point). It was the absolute nicest house I'd ever lived in, the kids and I loved it.

We were at a point where we were ready to buy and the lease was up for renew and they were going to raise the payment. We wanted to buy it but they had raised their selling price as well. DH said that we would have to just move and buy another house. I didn't want to leave that house, I cried over it. We could've continued leasing the house with a bigger payment and maybe hoped to talk the owner down in price but DH decided we should move. He supports the household, we moved into a older, less expensive house and I was a trooper about it. The payments were cheaper for a while but for some reason, (something to do with insurance I think) the payments have increased to the point where they are the same as what we were paying before.

Now, I don't blame DH for this, he did what he thought was best at the time.

If we had POJA in place, we would've done nothing, because I didn't want to leave that house. But at the time, financially speaking, moving was the right thing to do.

If we had stayed, that would've been thrown at me every time we couldn't pay a bill.

**The biggest thing I'm trying to understand however is that, biblically speaking, isn't the man the head of the household? I took a marriage without regrets bible study class at church and was taught about what submitting to your husbands meant. According to the bible passages referenced, a wife can have an opinion and express it, but ultimately if there is still a conflict, the husband makes the decision.**

It kind of looks like POJA favors the status quo and therefore whoever is for the status quo is in the best position to get what they want. Assuming that both partners are not selfish, and are willing to negotiate, etc. maybe that's not an issue, but I can see how it would be problematic in a lot of cases.

How should things be handled when one spouse(me) is sick A LOT-(and by this I mean a TON-sick far more than well)? The Giver of the well spouse really takes a brutal beating...How is that supposed to be handled Biblically using MB principles?

I have a question too...Always fun to pick the minds of two of my favorite posters...:)

How should things be handled when one spouse(me) is sick A LOT-(and by this I mean a TON-sick far more than well)? The Giver of the well spouse really takes a brutal beating...How is that supposed to be handled Biblically using MB principles?

Mrs. W

Not being a mindreader, we will have to wait for Nia to clarify just what it was that she was trying to say.

If it happens to be along the lines of "we can't trust what is in the Bible because there have been many errors in translation," then that opinion could be addressed.

If it has anything to do with "men" not understanding how to translate, I'm not sure what to say about that other than one needs to be careful regarding WHAT Bible is used and how it was translated.

Last thought concerns the authority of the Bible. There is no more thoroughly documented "book" if one is just looking at it from an "historical" position, related to the accuracy of translations. It goes beyond that, however, in that the Bible IS the Word of God, as attested to by Jesus Christ himself. So the "basis" of faith in what God has communicated to us is integrally tied to one's "view" of the Bible itself, whether or not it is inerrant and the inspired Word of God to mankind.

God bless.

This thread is really hot today...went to lunch with DH and came back and there's a zillion posts in one hour.

I had brought up this very issue of POJA and Biblical principles in the thread Pep started for me but haven't heard anything so I'm going to paste it here and see if someone can explain to me how POJA works within the biblical principle of the wife submitting to her husband (maybe it doesn't?). I've read everything so far and I understand the giver/taker aspect but I still don't get this part.

This thread is really hot today...went to lunch with DH and came back and there's a zillion posts in one hour.

I had brought up this very issue of POJA and Biblical principles in the thread Pep started for me but haven't heard anything so I'm going to paste it here and see if someone can explain to me how POJA works within the biblical principle of the wife submitting to her husband (maybe it doesn't?). I've read everything so far and I understand the giver/taker aspect but I still don't get this part.

Thanks FH and MM...There is MUCH guilt that comes with being the sick spouse and therefore the constant taker...Mr. W and I don't want his Super Taker to eventually come out, but I certainly could understand if it was itching to be released...A lot rests on Mr. W's shoulders when I am "down for the count" so to speak...He is human and there are days that I know he resents having so much forced upon him-on those days I feel so helpless and guilty...He gets frustrated, understandably, and then I ask him the question "What am I supposed to do? How could I have prevented ______ (whatever is going on at the time)?" It's a challenge to be sure...

Oh yeah, and why is it that men seem to get almost angry when the woman is sick? I've spoken to many women about this and it seems quite common...What is going on in their heads then?

Mrs. W

This thread is really helping me! We had a pretty big business decision to make today, we knew about it yesterday...This thread really put things into perspective for me...Allowed me to submit to Mr. W's headship with total faith in God...

Just wanted to say thank you to MM for starting such a helpful thread!

Mrs. W

Oh yeah, and why is it that men seem to get almost angry when the woman is sick?

If we had stayed, that would've been thrown at me every time we couldn't pay a bill.

No problem. And I hope the business decision went well!! Tell Mr. W to give me a call...I'd love to hear how it is all going!

Mrs. Wondering, I'll take a stab at this one. I am a woman, but I have actually been the one in our family that gets "angry" when someone else is sick! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

It's the feeling of helplessness. I hate seeing someone I love suffering physically, and I am powerless to do much about it. Sure, I can give them TLC, but I am impatient, and I don't see tangible results, or at least not the results I WANT. I want them to be better NOW!

I am also SCARED when someone is sick. I am prone to thinking the worst possible thing will happen! My imagination goes wild and I imagine all sorts of horrors will follow.

So, it's part fear, part helplessness (or powerlessness)...the feeling of not being in control but wanting to be.

It's also (and this is really tough to admit), partly selfishness...you know, how dare you break up my routine by being sick? This is an inconvenience to me, more work for me, etc.

Keep in mind, I know full well that last one is a WRONG attitude, but I think it stems from the fear, since anger is a secondary emotion.

I turn my fear and worry into anger to protect myself from feeling out of control.

NOW

I wonder how many men try to tell themselves they are simple and then they turn to OW or alchohol or some other addiction to avoid the truth.

smartcookie
Member
Member # 12846

Me: SAb survivor/FWW 39
Hubby: 47
Dday #1 Oct 2005 (A, summer 2005)
Dday #2 Nov 2006 (ONS, 1996)
2 Daughters, 4 & 7 yrs old

Well SC - that's your signature from another web site.

Tell me, do you think DD#2 being just a few months ago might have something to do with his drinking?

Any more undisclosed ONS's or affairs he suspects you of?

You have no idea how much that means to me, MM!

One more question....hope you don't mind!

Does the Taker in one spouse ever have trouble accepting the Giver in the other spouse?

I fear that this is part of my problem, that I have somehow put up a wall to prevent DH's Giver from giving! Maybe it stems from distrust of the Giver in myself!?

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smartcookie
Member
Member # 12846

Me: SAb survivor/FWW 39
Hubby: 47
Dday #1 Oct 2005 (A, summer 2005)
Dday #2 Nov 2006 (ONS, 1996)
2 Daughters, 4 & 7 yrs old


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Well SC - that's your signature from another web site.

Tell me, do you think DD#2 being just a few months ago might have something to do with his drinking?

Any more undisclosed ONS's or affairs he suspects you of?


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i don't understand your point Big K....how is that info relevant to SC's post?

FH,

I believe that most of the world's "greatest" philosophers to date have probably been equally distributed between the genders.

The problem is that most of the worlds PUBLISHED philosophers have been MEN because of the historical opression of women until the more recent centuries. Women, remember, were not even educated to read nor write until recent history.

My daughter now holds a degree in philosophy and has "educated" me in this issue! I USED to think the same way you did - but now have changed my mind.

I guess I'm not to old to learn......

Mortarman,

When you wrote of giving, you had this:

"God calls on us to give unconditionally! To give without expectation of anything in return." I thought it was interesting as a Biblical reference, because it is also found in the Quran.

Kahlil Gibran wrote of it where he talks of 3 kinds of givers - all are good, but that God really calls upon us to be the third kind:

The first kind of giver gives because he wants others to notice that he gives.
The second kind of giver gives because he gets something from it (this could be internal reward, pleasure from giving, for example).
The third kind of giver gives because it is of his nature to give, because he has taken it into his very soul to give and it is of him to give.

Muhammed instructs that we should strive to become the third kind of giver, to try to be that kind of person - but if we are the other two kinds, that's still good.



I like the idea of giving being a part of who a person is. Regardless of the reference.

Remember, it is not I give and then my S gives. It is for each decision being made. It is not, today we will watch what you on TV and tomorrow we will watch what I want, but instead is looking at programs we may never have seen before and finding what we both want to watch. If we can find nothing for both of us, it may mean that neither will watch TV, but will play cards instead. It could be that what we end up doing is something neither of us ever considered at first.

You know, I saw a this today on a poster. It was list of "100 Kind Things to Do". One of the items was, "Put the toilet seat down when you leave the bathroom."

Now, that might be kind to the LADIES, but what if the next person coming in is a man? Has the pendulum just swung so far in one direction that we expect this???????

Just something to consider.