MM and FH

Question on Forgiveness if you don't mind.

When a spouse asks for forgiveness, I know we are required to forgive. Can we ask questions about what we are being asked to forgive before we give them our forgiveness? I understand our forgiveness should not be based on their answers and mine was not. However I know through my readings that when I give forgiveness I need to leave it alone and not bring it up again. I know myself enough that if I don't ask the questions that it would still hang there.

Thanks....that sounds awesome! I want that, too.

It's time for me to really appreciate what he has done and is doing.

really

Time to let myself take the risk. I've been too afraid, too selfish to open myself up to intimacy.

Time to take him at his word....he did, after all, keep his.

I could use a best friend, and he's been standing right in front of me all this time.

It's been the same experience for me with God....I finally have gotten to a place where I truly trust HIM. I actually DO believe HIM, finally. I'm no longer just saying that I do. And why would He help us save our marriage, bring us all this way from Dday, just to make a fool of me/DH and his plans for us? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It's time for me to trust God, and show Him that I do, by letting myself become vulnerable to my husband again.

FH has given better answers on this in the past, so I will defer to him on this.

You have got it! Why dont you print out the link on the roles of husbands and wives below and read it. And let your husband do so also!!

Added to that...I would suggest that you guys go to one of the Marriage Builders weekends. It was great for us. And it got both of us on the same sheet of music. Added to that, we got put on a year long program, with Dr. Harley's oversight, that allows us to get to where we need to be in all of this.

This stuff is simple...but it aint easy!

You're right about that! Just goes to show ya why we need God so desperately!

I was just thinking about printing some things from this thread, too. So i better get busy!


Thanks again...God Bless YOU!

Hi bjs. I know I don't mind any questions and I'm sure that MM doesn't mind either.


"Can we ask questions about what we are being asked to forgive before we give them our forgiveness?"

Of course you can ask questions. In fact, you need to ask some questions. "I'm sorry, please forgive me" is not always specific enough. It can be, if the "offense" just happened and you are both aware of it. But when we are talking about recovering from ALL of the aspects of infidelity, there is MUCH that is not known to the BS. Add to that the fact that "blanket, unspecified" requests for forgiveness is not what is intended. We are, as much a possible, NAME the specific sin(s) we committed, confess those sins to God, and seek forgiveness for those sins.

"I've been bad, please forgive me" is NOT what repentance is all about. When a believer sins against us and then comes to us saying, "I repent," they are referring to the specific sin they committed against us. WE might not even be aware of it, and in the case of infidelity where most of it is conducted in secret and kept from the BS, the specific sin being repented of should be named and THAT is what you forgive.

Obviously you also need to "take care" that this doesn't devolve into a "witch hunt" or an "inquisition." It is, for example, not "necessary" to know, and have the WS describe "all the various positions and ways" they had sex with an Other Person. The sin is the sexual adultery, and that sin, not the "positions" employed, is the sin that needs to be named and forgiven. Delving too deeply into the "specifics" can easily lead to a negative, rather than a positive, with respect to being able to keep the promises you make as a forgiver to the one being forgiven.

As in the Parable of the Unmerciful Servant, we KNOW the servant owed the Unmerciful Servant a sum of money that belonged to the Unmerciful Servant. HOW the servant spent the money and what he spent it on (Good or Bad) is essentially irrelevant. The forgiveness is for the "debt that is owed," not for how the person being forgiven "used" the "funds."

I don't know if that helps or not. If not, pose some follow up questions.

God bless.

I have a question too...Always fun to pick the minds of two of my favorite posters...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

How should things be handled when one spouse(me) is sick A LOT-(and by this I mean a TON-sick far more than well)? The Giver of the well spouse really takes a brutal beating...How is that supposed to be handled Biblically using MB principles?

Mrs. W

This thread is really hot today...went to lunch with DH and came back and there's a zillion posts in one hour.

I had brought up this very issue of POJA and Biblical principles in the thread Pep started for me but haven't heard anything so I'm going to paste it here and see if someone can explain to me how POJA works within the biblical principle of the wife submitting to her husband (maybe it doesn't?). I've read everything so far and I understand the giver/taker aspect but I still don't get this part.

Hi Mrs. W, I hope you are feeling better. I don't know the specifics of the "sickness," but the biblical principle is pretty clear and is integral to the covenant of marriage:

"for better or for worse, in sickness and in health, for richer or for poorer, UNTIL death do us part." You are both "one body" in marriage.

God bless.

I will add to what FH said to say this...my wife, with her back injury and the baby on the way, is not meeting many of my most important needs the way I need them (especially SF right now). I could easily have let my Taker jump in lately!

But I have learned over this whole sordid mess that my needs can be met by Christ alone! That He will fill me where I cannot get it met otherwise.

So, I continue to care for my wife, and meet her needs...even knowing that I probably wont get much in return right now (at least on the SF part!!).

And guess what? Mrs. MM has noticed. She has made several references to this...and even said "you know, you have been so good to me over this, that when I am better...I'm gonna have to make it up to you!!"

Cant wait for that!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I want so badly to be involved in this, but I'm at work....ARGH...!

The point of POJA is that the giver and taker each get to operate together. I can give what is good and get something in return. If I don't just give and become a doormat OR just take and become entitled, but instead, negotiate to a point that what I am agreeing to is both, my taker is fed while allowing my giver to operate at the same time. It isn't just a win/win, but a WE win!

POJA isn't about compromising to allow something that my S wants to take place, but finding a NEW solution that allows both of us to get want we want. NOT a tit for tat, where I give and then he/she gives, but a really NEW thing in which we both give and yet both get something that we want. It is about finding a solution that can not only be agreed to by both, but agreed to enthusiastically. This is not the same as giving to get, since I am not giving and then expecting my S to give when it is his/her turn. It is searching for a way for BOTH to be happy with the decision at the same time. It is not giving and taking, but simply doing.

By agreeing, not to a compromise, but to something that is for both of us to begin with, it becomes give and give and at the same time receive and receive, rather than give and take.

Remember, it is not I give and then my S gives. It is for each decision being made. It is not, today we will watch what you on TV and tomorrow we will watch what I want, but instead is looking at programs we may never have seen before and finding what we both want to watch. If we can find nothing for both of us, it may mean that neither will watch TV, but will play cards instead. It could be that what we end up doing is something neither of us ever considered at first.

The alternative, is to give unilaterally or to take unilaterally. Either of these can become destructive, since both are independent behaviors. I can give to my W, but if I am not giving her what she needs from me, I have wasted the time and energy I have used. And as already has been pointed out is that eventually, my taker demands equal time. It isn't that I don't want to keep giving, it is that only one person was ever able to give that way and I am not Him.

So much more in this, but I have to get to work before they think I'm back in the hospital.

This thread is moving so fast I can't post before another page goes by any way...

Mark

i missed this.
sorry...didn't mean to offend anyone....it was supposed to be a joke and sort of inline w/ MM's first post...... women reading too much onto things....
men are simple.
my delivery stinks. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

MomtoAandZ - It doesn't appear from the scenario you posted that there was option to "do nothing." The rents and price were changing and a decision needed to be made.

You talked about it and the pros and cons and then left it up to your husband to "make the choice." That's what humble submission to the leadership of the husband is all about. NONE of what we do is "guaranteed" to be successful, but we look to God no matter what our circumstances are. We have all made choices that, in retrospect, we might do differently IF we had the same information available to us "back then" that we are basing our retrospective analysis upon.

To put it a different way, let's say you were discussing buying a car. If the car you have is in good running order and serviceable, you might simply "want" a new car. POJA enters in here because it's not NECESSARY that a decision to buy a car be made.

But, if your car is broken or the repair costs are escalating to where it costs more to hold onto the car than it does to go get a replacement car, then you MUST make a choice. You may HAVE TO give up the "old comfortable car" for the new car, and yes, the insurance rates may go up too.

Hope that helps a little.

God bless.

Look, check out my link below concerning the roles of husbands and wives. And go to the section on submission.

The big thing here is this...POJA is a Biblical principle, really. Yes, God gave me the ability to make the ultimate decisions in our family. But, if I am smart...why in the worild would I make a decision that I havent fully discussed and gone thru with my wife?

Sure, i nthe end...maybe you both cannot find agreement. And if you can just live without it, I would say that POJA says that you just leave it alone and make no decision. But if it is something that requires a decision, then the Bible is clear and someone has to make that decision in the end. And that authority is given to the husband. The wife trusts God that if the husband is not making the right decision, that God will intervene and stop him.

So, POJA does apply. The Bible is clear that a husband should be utilizing his helpmate.

Good point Mark!

Thanks FH and MM...There is MUCH guilt that comes with being the sick spouse and therefore the constant taker...Mr. W and I don't want his Super Taker to eventually come out, but I certainly could understand if it was itching to be released...A lot rests on Mr. W's shoulders when I am "down for the count" so to speak...He is human and there are days that I know he resents having so much forced upon him-on those days I feel so helpless and guilty...He gets frustrated, understandably, and then I ask him the question "What am I supposed to do? How could I have prevented ______ (whatever is going on at the time)?" It's a challenge to be sure...

Oh yeah, and why is it that men seem to get almost angry when the woman is sick? I've spoken to many women about this and it seems quite common...What is going on in their heads then?

Mrs. W

This thread is really helping me! We had a pretty big business decision to make today, we knew about it yesterday...This thread really put things into perspective for me...Allowed me to submit to Mr. W's headship with total faith in God...

Just wanted to say thank you to MM for starting such a helpful thread!

Mrs. W

I understand Mr. W's plight. It aint easy. As FH said, this is about the sickness, poorer, bad times part of the clause. You see, we dont say marriage vows for the richer, better, health part. We dont have to then. Vows are for when things arent going as planned!

Ultimately, guilt is not a good thing here. If you can do something about it...then do it. If you cant, then you both have to cut each other a break. My wife has begun doing that lately. She knows I am a little "frustrated" due to the reduced SF. She understands. So, when I get a little grumpy...she rolls with it. She understands that I might feel that way and that we'll work thru it.

In the end, I think it is a test here of both of you. Is the commitment such that no matter what, you will wake up the next morning and begin again?

On the sickness issue with men and women...I really have no clue!

No problem. And I hope the business decision went well!! Tell Mr. W to give me a call...I'd love to hear how it is all going!

Mrs. Wondering, I'll take a stab at this one. I am a woman, but I have actually been the one in our family that gets "angry" when someone else is sick! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

It's the feeling of helplessness. I hate seeing someone I love suffering physically, and I am powerless to do much about it. Sure, I can give them TLC, but I am impatient, and I don't see tangible results, or at least not the results I WANT. I want them to be better NOW!

I am also SCARED when someone is sick. I am prone to thinking the worst possible thing will happen! My imagination goes wild and I imagine all sorts of horrors will follow.

So, it's part fear, part helplessness (or powerlessness)...the feeling of not being in control but wanting to be.

It's also (and this is really tough to admit), partly selfishness...you know, how dare you break up my routine by being sick? This is an inconvenience to me, more work for me, etc.

Keep in mind, I know full well that last one is a WRONG attitude, but I think it stems from the fear, since anger is a secondary emotion.

I turn my fear and worry into anger to protect myself from feeling out of control.

NOW