Dogfood wrote:
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I haven't even read your post, so get over yourself.
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Whatever you say.

I am sorry for your pain.

God bless,
Gimble

I personally have thought through most of this thread that vince should bail, but I feel differently based on his expressed desire not 2 bail. AND, based on what he relayed his WW said most recently - she's been dumped. She's not ready 2 reach out 2 vince in a positive way just yet, and he probably ought 2 protect himself from further hurt for a while until he can get on firmer footing.

But everything she said is typical of WSs in her position. And if vince WANTS 2, and gets the professional help he NEEDS 2 get at this delicate junc2re, then heck yeah, I think he's got a good chance of making this a good marriage.

There are a lot of ifs in there, though, and what his W does in response or reaction 2 him is still unknown (though perhaps it's predictable, by the professionals, at least). And so, if he decided 2 bolt, I for one would support that choice as one he gets 2 make if he wants.

-ol' 2long

Gimble,

It was obviously directed at mustangdriver. And don't argue with Dogfood right now. He's in perhaps the most awful situation you could imagine. I agree that it is YOUR decision as to whether or not you want to work this out, Vince. BUT - be prepared, this won't be an overnight thing, this will likely be a 2 year type thing until things can be good again. My WW broke up with OM back in early November. Right now my W won't attend counseling, won't have SF with me or tongue kiss (it's been over 8 months now), won't go with my to my parents' house for holidays, won't hang out with my friends (other than one female that she likes), and generally won't do anything that I want to do. She's still in selfish mode. It will take a LONG time to recover from the damaged she has unloaded on your relationship. Are you prepared? And by the way, my WW is probably in the exact same boat is yours (27, no kids, selfish and stubborn as ******, etc.). You should follow my recovery and see what you are in for.

Jim:

Interesting. My W is behaving much like yours is right now, only my W's A lasted about 12 years, so the withdrawal process is slower and harder 2 see around.

And you're right. Whether he bolts or fixes, recovery is going 2 take a 2ple of years.

-ol' 2long

'Food:

Are you trying 2 make some sort of statement 2 your STBXWW and/or t_e with your posts? You said they're lurking. And you're in plan B.

I thought Veeblefetzer was a good idea for a username. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

MrsW:

Yours was a message of hope. I not so sure about MustangDriver's.

I do not want a debate, and I do not think that VS needs the debate on his thread.

But that theme of "Bail out" exists around here. But. It isn't always here. And that's why I do not want a debate.

Vince:

Get strong buddy. Mrs W just gave you a potenial scenario for the steps that are coming.

Can you stand to have your W crying on your shoulder about the OM?

If you did allow her to do this, how would you handle it? Would you say "there, there, it will be alright?"
Or: "this too shall pass, come with me to a brighter future?"
Or: "I do not care about your sadness about OM, what about ME!"

Read carefully what Mrs W. has told you.

Because this is a phase that your W is going to have to pass thru.

And at this point, I would turn on the phone, turn on the email, and be a bright shining light home.

Because when you are lost, you go to the light, and if the OM's light is brighter, for whatever reason, she will go back to that.

I would extinguish the light if WW was continuing in the A, but right now? She needs to see YOUR Light....

LG

Hi, Jim.

I am not arguing with Dogfood.

Here is a quote of one of the questions I asked Vince.

"Do you want to invest 2+ years attempting to recover a relationship with an uncertain outcome?"

I don't know who is on what page, but I have seen plenty of situations like yours and his on this forum. I have helped people recover their relationship, and I have helped others through the pain of divorce.

It appears to me that most of the posters on this page want to see Vince thinking clearly so that he can make a decision that HE can live with, not necessarily one that any particular poster wants to see him make.

Most marriages can be saved, but not all, and of the ones that can be saved, there is an emotional and physical cost that can not be accurately assessed up front. Regardless, there are some situations that have obvious, inherently high costs/risks for recovery. Vince appears to be in one of the later mentioned situations.

All the best,
Gimble

DF,

Part of the advice comes from Harley's own comments. But, the other is based on exactly what 2L said. Children and long term marriages mean many more people are affected and affected deeply by a divorce. Hence, the admonition to hang in.

In the case of a short marriage where there are no children, and much less history, the collateral damage is much less, thus getting out makes more sense. But, there is also something else that needs to be considered.

If the marriage is very young and it already has infidelity in it, then the odds are high it is NOT what the partner did or did not do, it is within the person themselves. This makes meeting needs something that can be much less productive. Further, in young marriage there is a maturity issue. So the tendency is to see these things as something that might be best walked away from.

Having said this, IF the WS comes back, gets their act together and decides to work on the marriage, then there is every hope that it could be a long marriage.

I have not done the statistics, but it seems to me in my years here, that marriages that have affairs in them early have lots of problems later. Now obviously marriages that don't have affairs early can and do have problems.

So I will close this with one last thought. Infidelity is one of the very very few reasons the Bible mentions for allowing divorce. (the terms hardness of heart and unequally yoked are also mentioned).

So I hope I have offered you some ideas as to why you see what you hear on this site. It comes from more than one thing. But, the point made that it takes years to recover either the marriage or from the divorce is in fact very very true...sadly.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL

DF, VS,

I have read both of your threads.

I have been in your shoes. I have felt your pain.

Why do I feel the way I do? Because I would have been blessed to be in your situation. Because I can tell you that having your children ripped out of your life is a million times more painful than the end of the relationship. Because my children will grow up in split homes now and have to deal with the turmoil of going back and forth between homes. They have to deal with step parents and possibly step siblings. They have a mother that has taught them that it is ok to bail out of a marriage instead of doing the right thing, sticking to your vows and working on your problems.

It also rips me up inside to turn them over to their mom and to drop them off knowing I won't see them again for another week. You have no concept of this pain.

Believe me, I want to save you from experiencing it. Leave these cheating women and let them suffer through life while you pick up, learn from this, and find a real woman that has the maturity to be married and be a mother.

You are lucky. All you have lost is a little bit of time and money wasted on a sham of a wedding with spouses that have didn't have the maturity to handle the reality of marriage. You both married children and immature women. If you want to point the finger at me, then ditto! The same can be said and has been said by my family and friends.

So why bail? Because I can guarantee that if you do you'll look back without the emotions attached and thank your lucky stars you never had children with these immature women with no concept of fidelity or marriage.

Ultimately it is your decision, but yes, if she's cheating on you only 18 months into your marriage, then that is a huge sign she'll do it again and again and suck the life out of you.

Get out now while you have your youth. You too DF. I cried reading your thread. I WANTED your thread to have a happy ending. I WANTED to see that you did everything I should have done and didn't do and see it work for you. It didn't and it hasn't. One day she may wake up and see she had a good man, but what will you do with the time that goes by until she does? Wait?

Your youth doesn't last forever and sitting around waiting for women that aren't worth it will only waste time you could be spending on improving yourselves and finding real women. Forget the ones in their 20s. Date women, not children.

If I sound bitter, it's because I have swallowed some bitter fruit.

Would I take my ex back? A big huge maybe, only motivated by my children. I want to be there for them as a father and only if there was remorse on her part and a real return of the woman I loved and not the WS.

I would live on the other side of the country if it wasn't for my kids. They are the only reason I live in a place I have very few friends, no family, and commute 2 hours one way to work every single day. Them. I'm not hanging out here waiting for my exww to wakeup. That doesn't look like it will happen. She says I'm crazy now and doesn't recognize who I have become.

Imangine that! Someone inflicts horrible pain on another person, rapes their sould, and doesn't understand why they act a little different. Why they are angry. Why they are emotional.

You don't want to be in my shoes in a few years. Count your blessings and let these women go.

You don't have to listen to me and you will get many opinions, but do you really want to take the chance on a woman that has already hurt you this way?

These women have opened their legs up to other men when they promised to love you and forsake all others. They did it and blamed you for wanting to do it.

Did you create a situation that made them vulnerable? You probably did. We all did as BSs. But the cheating is never, ever justified.

I will agree that we're all vulnerable to it. I will agree that recognising that vulnerabilty is the most important thing in a marriage.

When I was married I kept my W informed of every single interaction with a member of the opposite sex. I never hung out one on one with a woman. The only excepting was work related, where I flew combat missions with a woman and we had to interact daily one on one. But it was a professional relationship. She was the teacher and I was the pupil.

I was attracted to a woman in my squadron once. Know how I handled it? By staying away from her. By knowing that if I "harmlessly" flirted with her it could open me up inside. Because she was everything my ex wasn't. I stayed far away. I was polite and friendly with her and she had absolutely no clue that I was attracted to her.

That's how we should handle temptation. By recognizing we're vulnerable to it and staying away from it.

My ex? She insisted on having male friends. She wanted to make new ones after we were married and it bothered me to no end. I set my limits and she respected them after we had a blow up, but it was a sign of her mentality.

I couldn't have done anything at the time or afterwards other than keep tabs on it.

Too many affairs start off with people who are "just friends". That's how they start.

Want a different example? My father cheated on my mother when they dated. He cheated on her after they got married. She forgave him each time and he continued to cheat. He then got his act together and I had a wonderful family, but he hit his mid life crisis and took a giant dump on our family.

If my mother hadn't forgiven him when they were dating then she wouldn't have married a man that broke her heart over and over and tore up his children's home. THAT should motivate and let you see that you're lucky to get out now while you have no kids and you're young and your finances are intact.

My two cents and you don't have to listen to me. You ask the questions and I gave you my opinion. It is ultimately your decision and I'm just one of many voices. I'd be the first to cheer you on and wish you the best if your ww's pulled their heads out and asked you to forgive them.

Hi Everyone -

Please let me digest all of this and come up with some sort of intelligent response as to how I am feeling. And for the record, DogFood and I have been exchanging emails the past 7 weeks or so and he has been a very good friend trough all of this and we have both grieved and hurt together during our arduous istuations...

More to dcome...

and THANKS!:)
VS

For the record, I have also heard Dr. Willard Harley say that if there is infidelity early in a marriage where the couple hasn't yet had children then he would recommend divorce. He says that is what he himself would do. JL and others along that line have given it to you straight.

Hi Trix,

I have known since Feb 15th that dicorce is what most people recommend in my sitch. I am not disputing this at all.

I just want to take my time with this and not make any emotional, irrational decisions that I may regret down the road.

Everyone Else:

2 things to keep in mind here:

1. Its not like my wife is begging for me back now that OM has told her to bug off and has been since Feb 23rd. Also, he just told WW he has a girlfriend and to let it go. She hasn't returned my phone calls the last two days and just text'd me briefly yesterday saying we would talk and hangout, order in and watch a movie tonight. I called and text her this am and late last night, no response at all.

2. I have only been married by law for 17 months. We have been living together for 5 years, and the 2 years before that, I can count on one hand how many days/nights we spent apart. So I really feel like we have been married for 5+ years. For 5+ years we have been doing EVERYTHING a married couple would do. Share finances, live together, etc. etc. So, I throw out the one year rule or whatever Harley recommends. I do agree that it makes it easier to cut bait being so young (30) and having no kids and no financial assets to split.

This all comes down to me and how I feel and of course, her, and how she feels. Ultimately, I do believe that she has changed for the worse, i will never see my 'wife' again and she is in love with her new life. Yes, this may change over time, but right now, I don't see her making any effort to come back.

And for the poster who said that I too need to be 100% committed during recovery, I am fully aware of this. I give everything I do 150% and never give up (look at this situation, 3 months and no positive movement, yet I still am trying to get my wife back).

So, let me think about this some more and report back in awhile.,. I really am hoping and excited to hang out with her tonight, I hope it happens, but it would be a first in the last 2+ months (to hangout on a weekend night).

Thanks everyone!

VS

vs, df,

None of us here will minimize or diminish your pain. The problem is that you are both so emotionally involved, that it is difficult to actually see the reality. We here are emotionally detatched and can give you an opinion based on what you've stated.

Re-read my previous thread. Everything I said still applies.

Your pain is terrible. I've lived it. I still am living it. I was with my W for 7 years. I know what you're saying. I had more good times with her than bad. We had beautiful moments together. Life defining moments.

But now I'm dealing with the remnants of a life I'm trying to put back together. You are as well. The difference is that you have no kids. If I was in your shoes I would be living clear across the country.

You want to heal? Go as far away from her as possible. It will take time to heal. You're very much in denial about what you have to do. Trust me, when you enter the anger phaze things will start to detatch emotionally for you.

I am in acceptance, but I regress periodically. A big part of me very much still loves my wife. But she's not coming back and I'm not getting my kids as a part of my everyday life anymore. I get nostalgic.

That is tempered by the actual events that took place. My ex went out with other men, feeling no guilt in doing so. She had a physical encounter with one. She paraded her dating live on myspace, knowing I was reading her site when she could have easily made it private from the start.

She broke me financially and has taken the kids away from me. I get to see them, but it is scraps of time compared to my involvement as a father.

Trust me when we tell you. You simply don't want to hear it, but you are better off leaving this woman than sitting around and setting yourself up for further pain. If you have children, they will suffer through some future drama.

I've been on both ends of it. I saw divorce rip my family apart both as a child and as a spouse. It is devastating and crushing, both ways.

Let her go. It is better for you.

VS

I just wish to express that mustangs position and your wish to try everything to save your M are both legitimate choices, BUT YOU need to make one YOU are comfortable with.

Is once a cheater always a cheater true? I doubt it.

Most FWS men or women, have learnt very harsh lessons and even after many months perhaps years have a lot of remorse. Deserved? oh yes. We can never make up the pain we caused our spouses or family.
We can ensure they are never hurt by us like that again though.
Most I know would rather die than cause such hurting again. I know I would.

I know many have learnt a lot about themselves and their own lives and how to make choices that do not lead to such behaviour again.

Do we fail at times? yes
Most never again go down the path of adultery, in other words its not a life style choice but a horrible selfish choice that we made.
There are heaps of technical psycho-bable I can use to explain such behaviour but who really cares? The bottom line is that we have hurt our spouses in the worst way possible.
Like you wife has you.

Can she come back from that? yes she can.
Will she choose to do so? well who knows you can only try to help her to choose that path
Will you get your M back? NO thats dead. create a NEW m.
Is it fair? no way on God's green earth

I feel at least from your posts that unless you try everything that does not mean you become a door mat, to be the lighthouse for your ww to come home to and attempt to rebuild a m and life together that you will never be easy with a decision to let it go. So if you do feel that way then ring the Harleys, try all that you can for YOUR peace of mind.
If it works then I and many here will be so happy for you both.
If it does not then you will at the least be comfortable that you gave it all and kept the faith and vows you made. It will allow you to move on if that is what the future holds.
No matter what anyone advises YOU must choose what path to take.

A prayer never hurts either and you will be in mine.

VS

What you are really complaining about is that you have lost your power through no choice of your own. You lost your manhood and can't figure out how to get it back except through your wife.

Forget her. The person you thought you were married to is gone and will never return. Obviously you didn't know her all that well anyway. Both of you are forever changed by the happenstance.

It is that lots of men are walking around with horns on their head, me included. Some of us know it and some of us don't. Now you have the opportunity to use those horns for the strength they give you or curl up in a little ball and complain.

See, the difference between animals and humans is that animals always follow their emotions. Humans have this thing called reason. And reason teaches us consequences so we don't follow our emotions, we make our emotions follow us. Your WW got in the fix she is in because she followed her emotions around like a puppy dog. And now she is making a fool of herself over the guy. I am not impressed.

And you are making a fool of yourself over her. Again, I am not impressed. Right now she needs a leader. So what are you doing? Yea, you are. And it ain't a pretty sight.

Until you get yourself under control, you can't help her.

Stop with the mental gymnastics. Simplify everything. Boil it down to simple black and white and then deal with it. She is still part the way you loved her and part the way nobody would love. So help her find herself. But you can't help her until you get yourself under control.

I got told the same thing in almost the same words. I gutted it up and it changed my life and it changed my wife. It took time, but it was time well spent and today we have a new and better relationship, one we can be proud of instead of ashamed.

But I had to lead. Can you?

Larry

Larry, Great Post..

Thread Jack !!!

Mustang


It happens all the time. Google Michelle Langley and read her book. It is cheap and it will help you understand the emotional cycles a woman goes through in relationships. You might also read the sequel, which is sorta available if you know where to look, but may not be if she pulls it off the market until it comes out in printed form later this year.

With all the great advice that is available from this site and Harley's books, Langley gave me the final piece of the puzzle. Without Harley, I wouldn't have been able to undestand. But I still didn't quite get it. Now I do.

I feel for you. I really do. I have watched more than a few women follow their entitlement around and screw up more lives than it takes to fill Yankee Stadium. Yea, and men do it too. Search for heartsore on here and you will find a similar situation as your own.

Larry

End of Thread Jack

I agree 100% that if I don't get myself under control and regain my 'manhood' and confidence, there is no way I will not only NOT be able to save my M, but make rational decisions.

Now, of course yesterday she blew me off, despite promising to be with me last night the day before. I called her 2-3 times yesterday and textd her and got no response until around 4pm when she finally answered the phone and said "WHAT DO YOU WANT?" At that point I just asked her if we were still going to hangout, but I could already tell we weren't. I said its common courtesy to let someone know if you are not going to be with them even though you make plans so the other person can make other plans (I did anyway, knowing she was going to blow me off). Anyway, the conversation was not good, love busting and she is just impossible to deal with and said she wanted a D multiple times. I'm not sure if thats the fog talking or her, but whatever, the case, i need to give her a few days to figure this out. She said "Everything that has happened the past 5 months is just sorta hitting me now and I need some time to deal with it." I said "Why dont you let me help you. Who has been there for the last 8 years?" She said: "You have , but not emotionally."

Anyway, long story short, the convo was not good at all and I should of hung up right away, but as everyone has clearly noted above, including myself, I am not in control right now. I textd her a few times last night late asking her to call me, as I was drunk and wanted to talk (dumb I know)....and got no response...probably for the better.

I awoke this am to a message saying "baby, you need to relax and chill out a little. I love u. I am on the verge of a nervous breakdown and you are pushin it.". Whatever. She just doesn't understand what she has done to me and never will.

So, I guess I will let her stew for awhile, but I thought this would be a good chance for me to sneak in and giver her some EN's and LB$, but I guess not. She clearly said that she doesn't want to see me right now and even said multiple times that she doesn't understand why i think we can make it back from this and that we should get a divorce. So........

I'm going to ......go insane. Thats what. Just insane. Needless to say I cried myself to sleep pretty hard last night as the reality of this whole situation is really sitting in for me to and just can't believe what has happened to my life. Its surreal. Yea, I know, poor me..whatever. Here I am on the first holiday I will not be spending with my WW in 8 years....going to be a tough day. Be with family and have everyone asking where my WW is...looking forward to it...

VS.


Wrong. She understands very well if you have accurately repeated her words and deeds. And she cannot and will not deal with the consequences of what she has done. She does not have the emotional capacity right now.

Again, first get in control of yourself. Once you have done this, life will get better, I promise. You are wallowing around in the drama. Again, boil it down to simple concepts, ones a male can handle.

Stop talking to her unless she initiates contact and then be cordial but controlled. No romance talk, no relationship talk, no recriminations, no nothing.

Your situation isn't near as complicated as you are making it. I understand how hard things are for you. So what. Life is hard. Deal with or flush your own self down the toilet. What is going on with you right now isn't a choice she made, it is one you made. Why? Well, to recover from the bad choice she inflicted on you, first you have to get control of yourself.

And you obviously aren't doing that very well. Are you hauling around some guilt you haven't stated? If not, then suck it up guy and do the right thing. If you are, then you still gotta suck it up and do the right thing.

And the right thing is get control of yourself.

Larry

Larry-

The only guilt I have is that I feel is that I could of been a better husband and not have taken my wife for granted. Thats it. I was loyal, honest, providing , loving, etc. I feel I could of improved on some things and now I feel like I took her for granted, but I think that is natural because now I don't have her, I cherish the times we had together before so much more now than before.

I talked to her this am (I called). I just wished her a Happy Easter and asked if she wanted to go to my Moms (which i already knew the answer to, but thought it would be nice to ask). She said "Are you kidding? After what I have done?". I told her she loves her and that she has tried to call her a couple times to talk to you, to which my WW said "yea, to get me to go back to you". I said "you sound like that is such a bad thing"...to which i got no response.

I then started talking about why she feels there is no way back from this and tasked her if she thinks she would have a better life without me, to which she said "financially, no, but otherwise, yes.". Her attitude has changed so much in the last 2 weeks, and especially since finding out OM has a GF. I thought this would bring us together, but it has only pushed us further apart, maybe because of how needy/clingy I have been acting.

The more I think bout what she has done, the more I want to call her and be with her. I dint know why that is. I feel so humiliated and beaten down and have just zero self-esteem right now. I miss my WW's affection so badly, but I need to realize its not coming anytime soon and most likely ever. Its been 4 months since she has shown me anything. After 8 years, its tough. I just wish so badly she would say "I love you, lets give this a try", instead, she is saying the exact opposite. She doesn't want a future with me and says this made her realize it. I can't separate fog talk from reality as I feel she really feels this way. It just seems that her mindset has changed so much. before I felt like there was actually a chance and that we were going to give this a shot. Now I feel like there is no hope, yet I keep holding on. I don't understand it at all. Why am I so weak? Why can I not let her go? She is obviously a piece of ****** and doesn't deserve me, yet I continue to long for her affection. Is it because I am lonely, afraid of the future, afraid of being alone? I don't know...but I would think so.

Yea, I'm a ****** mess right now. whatever. Its starting to concern me that it has been 4 months and I still haven't moved on or really gotten any better. I am seeing a therapist and on meds, but really, it comes down to me. I need to make the moves, or else I will wallow in this forever, and I am too young and have too much life ahead of me to do this to myself. The thing is, the last 5 years of my life have been 1000% devoted to her and I and our future. Now that has been totally stolen, and I have this life that was made for us, and I only have me. I'm at a serious crossroad here and need to get it together before I end up on the wrong path for good. I am not taking care of myself, barely eating, and just dwelling and dwelling. I rarely leave the house and when i do, I have to force myself. My WW was everything to me, and I planned my life around us...I just can't walk away.

I pray to God every night and day to give me peace, not for her to come back, just for peace. The internal struggles in my head right now are so strong and overbearing, something is going to give here soon.....

VS