OK - some great posts here. I never mean to disrespect anyone on here and I know that i will look back on this time and truly understand what you all have been saying and that I should of been doing this sooner.

I think right now I am having many different conflicting emotions in my head right now that are not allowing me to be a Plan A'r or do the things that have been suggested to me. Do I really want to save this M? Am I continually calling her and wanting her attention to fill a void she has filled for 8 years? Am I afraid to move on? Do I fear being alone? What about all the details of her affair and how she could do this? Theses are all conflicting emotions I have that I believe drive me to "do the wrong things".

You don't think I know I need to get control, be strong, etc. I try...man do I try. Maybe I'm just weak. Maybe I can't allow my wife to be with another man and just look the other way and focus on her needs, when inside i am completely gutted. Ya, poor me, I know, a million others have been in my shoes. So what? Everyone handles it different. This is unfortunately how I handle it. I don't make a conscious decision to wake up in the morning and make the wrong moves, i wake up every day and say "ok, I am going to do this, I'm in control and I am going to live my life". Well, somehow, throughout that day, I lose that control that I had when I woke up. Yea, its been 4 months, which makes this even worse. I know I am torturing MYSELF with my own behavior...I'm hoping today is a new day. I have a few good days with the situation, then a few bad, which totally ruin the good ones, I get that.

So, back to my sitch. She went to dinner with her parents Saturday night which was filled with A/M talk and I guess her parents really gave it to her. She of course didn't take that well. I text'd her to see if she wanted to hangout after her dinner, to which she said "baby, its too late, I'll call you when they leave". needless to say no call. She then called three times Sunday morning, but I was at Church and running errands and called her back when I got home. We talked more about seeing the counselor and how her time with her parents went - major mistake. she became angry - which I then promptly ended the convo. I called her back about 3 hours later to see if I could come over for dinner, as I was going to be right next to her house for a softball game I had. She didn't answer, i left a message. No call back, so I call her at 11. She answers the phone "what do you want Vince?" So right there I knew it was a lost cause. She said she wanted to come over for lunch today, to which I responded "why, what do you need to get?" long pause..."stuff for my trip." whatever, end of call. For whatever reason, she was very combative and not nice at all yesterday. She said multiple times she didn't want to talk to me. So I let her have her wish.

So she'll be here for lunch today. I'm not sure if I should be all nice and take the opportunity to shower her with attention, but frankly, after the way she has acted, really, the past 5 days, she doesn't deserve it and I would be a fool to be all nice to her after the way she disrespected me, no? Or do I look past that, say, "today is a new day, who cares how she has treated me" and just be nice instead of indifferent?

VS

Vince,

Just make every experience with your WW a positive one. She isn't in an active affair anymore. She's not disrespecting you (to the extent she was) any more. The sooner you let go and let things take care of themselves, the sooner your M will improve. These things don't fix themselves overnight, no matter how HARD you try. Quit forcing it, Vince, and just let it happen.

Yea JMWC - That is probably my #1 problem , is that i just want to fix this in one day and make it go away, because the pain is so severe, it is probably a natural reaction. You just will do anything to make the pain go away. Even though I know its not gonna work and I DO HAVE a long term plan, the power of the pain and wanting it to JUST go AWAY makes me LB, talk R/M and want this to just be fixed.

Thanks for your post -

VS

Vince,

Please, please, please stop calling/texting your ex. This is horribly difficult to do. Let her do the planning and contacting.

Trust me, space will give her perspective.

You are (from what I remember) a financially successful guy. You didn't get that way without self dicipline. That's the kind of dicipline you need to exercise.

You neet to somehow detach yourself emotionally when interacting with her. Pretend you have a family member or friend advising you. Hear our voices in your head when interacting with her.

I have no clue how to behave with my own ex right now. Do I act indifferent? Do I try to be pleasant?

It's hard. It sucks.

The 180 is your guide. It doesn't tell you to ignore your ex, it just tells you how to act around them. Please, please, please start following it. You'll feel better when you do.

Your ex will not come around until she sees you moving on, if she comes around at all.

Her family will be allies to you for only so long. They're still her family and blood is thicker than water. Believe me, my in laws dropped me like a hot potato when we were finally divorced and I started getting emotional over the loss.

Don't expect them to be allied with you for long. They will eventually support their daughter regardless of her actions.

Please follow the 180. It will start you on the path of healing if your W doesn't return and it will work positively for her.

She'll notice if you don't call or contact her and she may really appreciate the space.

You have to let her fall on her face on her own.

I thought you'd decided!


I don't understand what compels you to make these phone calls. Do you want to verify that she's home? Or is it a cell and you want to hear the background noise and guess where she is? Do you just miss her? I don't get it. One thing's for sure - if seeing your name come up on her caller ID makes your WW break out in exasperated groans, you are acting like a loser and making it harder for your WW to get her head out of her a$$. You need to be more tactful in your communication.

That isn't game playing, it's just smart.

Let me give you an example. Say I have a crush on some woman. I start calling her regularly. She's polite and chats but is somewhat lukewarm and undecided about me. In that case, calling her twice a day because I like her and enjoy hearing her voice would be a very *genuine* thing to do but it would also be a very *stupid* thing to do, don't you agree?

Simple rule: if there's a chance a call from you is going to make your WW roll her eyes and say, "Oh god, it's Vince again!" then don't make the f*cking call!


You oversimplify the dynamics. I can't even get a feel for your situation sometimes because I read your posts and I'm overwhelmed by the combination of indignation, neediness, and passive-agressive resignation (e.g. "What's the point if you say you want a divorce anyway?") that you seem to display in your communication with your WW.

If you believe that's the choice: between desperate a$$-kissing and indignant scolding, you are way, way off.

Your WW is *confused as he!!* and needs her partner to lead her gently out of the chaos she's created for herself.

It's much more likely to happen if you make yourself someone she'll want to follow.

Possibly due to your infuriating thickheadedness, you have received some of the best advice I've seen a man receive around here in a long time. Try not to squander it.

GC

Vince,
I have seen you all over the board mentally, and you yourself have stated that you have a hard time maintaining your self control when around your WW. My opinion, as someone who is or has been in your shoes, is that you should do the 180. Until you can master your own reactions, your own statements, your own plan, you will be best served by avoiding your WW. When you are 100% confident that you can not LB, not act needy or emotional, when you know you will be confident and fun to be around, then allow yourself to be around or speak to your WW.

You are addicted to her. Break the addiction and you will be able to be in control of yourself. You will dig a deeper hole until that time. STAY AWAY from her until you are no longer desperate for her to stay.

I think you are right GF.

well, she leaves for Florida for a week on Thur., so hopefully I can pull it together as she wants to begin counseling right when she gets back. That, combined with my talk with Jennifer tomorrow night, and the SAA book I just received, should help straighten me out.

Yea, I am a mess mentally. I'll be the first to admit to that. As for the 'saving my marriage' comment above. I am not sure I want to save the marriage. I want us both to get to a place where we can make sound decisions and not react off how we are both feeling. I would like us to both try to save the marriage, but I can't be sure if this is want I am going to want ...say 3 months from now, when the dust has settled and I am not an emotional wreck, I hope that makes sense. I want to try and get to that place where we are both communicating soundly, there isn't LB'ing gall over on both sides,a nd we have both committed to trying to save it. Then, at that time, we can both take an objective look and say "1. Do I want to save this marriage and 2. Can we save this marriage together for the rest of our lives", cause it will be a battle everyday, I know this.

I hope that makes some sense.

As for today's lunchtime interaction, it was not good. I wasn't LB'ing, but when I came over and went for a hug when she arrived, she backed away and said she was mad at me for remarks I made yesterday (when talking about R/M/A. I asked her to explain and she did, and I apologized and that wasn't my intent , as she misunderstood what I was saying. So she ate, got her stuff and left. Not much talk. She asked me if I wanted to come over tonight and I said maybe, as I am not sure I wan t to go there and just talk R/M, which I know will happen. ******, she is going to Florida with her girlfriend and I have no idea whether or not she will respect the marriage (flame away) and where she is at with that. Does she consider herself married and abide by th 'rules of being married'. I know she broke them already, but does that mean its open season now for all men? Thats the part I don't understand yet. I don't believe so. She had the gall to say to me today "You act like I'm a slut or something, I've only slept with 2 men in 8 years". I had to bite my tongue VERY hard on that one. Yea, only 2, but one was while you were married you dumb [censored]!! I didn't say it, but I wanted to very badly. she just has no idea how deep and the depth of my pain and suffering she has cause. She counters with "You have no idea what you have done to me", which I know is just her way of justifying what she has done. I'm willing and have, taken a LONG look in the mirror, and I know my wrongs, but they are by no means remotely close to what she has done, but I can't say that to her, or else she will feel like I am trivializing her feelings. Hopefully, in counseling and with time, she will see what she has done, if we make it out of this.

Also, just wanted to say that the men and women and their families affected by today's shootings are in my prayers. It feels odd posting about my wife's infidelity and my marital problems, when there are so many greater tragedies in this world, and I need to keep some perspective on things.

VS

Dude, she feels justified in cheating on you. You should hear the bomb I got.

My ex feels justified in her infidelity because "the marriage was over to me."

Really? I had no clue. Would have been nice to have been told so I wouldn't have been surprised when I came home to find what I found.

Vince, one day, when this fog wears off, whether she is with you or not, she will feel guilty over what she's done to you. If she has a remote ounce of decensy in her and any kind of conscience, she will see it.

Mine refers to her infidelity as "a one time mistake" and has never felt the need to apologize for how crushing such a thing is to a person who is fully engaged and in love in a holy covenant.

Vince, I see that there is a part of your brain that very much realizes that you will start thinking differently if she decides to come home.

You need to do the 180. It's posted on your thread. Read it! Execute it! It works!

Try it for one week and you'll see.

MD - I agree i have to 180, obviously what I am doing now is getting me nowhere, and actually, it is killing my hopes of reconciling. Its killing any ounce of love she had left for me.

Here's my latest deal. She has made it very clear that she dreads when I call or come over. She says she doesn't see anyway back to me. She doesn't see how we can possibly regain our love for each other. She sees no way back. I ask her "well, why don't we get a divorce then and why did you offer counseling?" She says "Well, I don't know what I want, the counseling is to just end this peacefully. So we both know where each other stands, and see if there is anything we can do."

I went there last night, after she offered and just asked questions, but tried to keep it light. I wanted to get as much info from her as I could before I talk to Jennifer tonight. I know, its wrong, but this was my last time I am going to act this way. I have the info I need to move forward.

She basically said all of the above. I asked her why she dreads talking to me and seeing me, and she said its because of what we talk about. I asked her "what, should we just avoid it forever?" She says no, but its the same thing over and over.

I don't know, I know I haven't been doing the 'right' things to save my M, but I think she is being fairly clear that she doesn't want to be married anymore. Don't you guys think? I am going to use the next 10 days of NC with her to REALLY gather myself and get my Plan air tight, but I just don't see ANY plan working. She likes being single, doesn't think i have changed and doesn't see how she can love me again. I think that is pretty clear talk. I also suspect she could possibly be talking/seeing to other men, but cant be sure. She is acting like she is 19 all over again.

So, I have my appt. with Jennifer tonight, should get my SAA book today and hopefully get my crap together. Its really now or never, even though I think it is a lost cause. Every now and again she drops a hint or a sentence or two that I feel like there is a chance, but then I get bombarded with about 100 sayings that say there is no way we can get back together.

So confused...but willing to really try..

VS

So, why do you keep at it?


vince... WE dread when you call her or go over!


It's still been only a few months, and if she's in NC with OM, then that's only been a few days/weeks. Don't sound so surprised at what she's saying. They ALL say those things at this stage in the game. And you are absolutely not helping one bit with your insistence on having your R talks. Jennifer will likely tell you 2 cut it out when you talk 2 her.


You keep expecting 2 get some sense out of her by having these conversations. You are not responding with thoughtfulness, you're reacting with cold-heartedness. Don't be so surprised when she reacts similarly.


How could this have been a "light" conversation if you had this agenda?


You had all the info you needed months ago. But I honestly hope you do move forward, for a change. Jennifer will help you, if you'll listen.


We told you so.


Yes, I agree.


No, I don't think. I know, from experience, that you and she are in "knee-jerk reactionary mode", where you're taking 2rns lashing out at one another. Then, you interpret that interaction as clear evidence she doesn't want 2 be married anymore. Heck, she doesn't want 2 be subjected 2 your wrath and DJs anymore. That's understandable. problem is, she doesn't have the skills 2 steer your conversations away from the non-productive crap you've been engaging in. You don't either, but you at least have been here and heard many of us urge you 2 change your tack, and yet you still persist.


And so long as you have this mindset, you will fail. Remember, 2, that every time you have an unproductive meeting with your WW, you start the process of healing all over again. Why put yourself through that constantly?


I think it's pretty clear she's at a loss 2 deal with you. Kind of like I've felt.


You need 2 DROP THIS. If she's not going 2 be your W, this really isn't your concern anymore, is it? If you can recover, it won't be until you've stopped reacting 2 everything you say 2 one another.


Work on changing your own mind, vince. Jennifer will help.


END THESE CONVERSATIONS. Tell her "time out" before she bombards you. Tell her it's okay for her 2 tell you "time out" when she feels she's being bombarded by you.

Get on the stick.


We shall see.

-ol' 2long

So you've heard it from everyone here, and you've heard it from her as well.

LIGHTEN UP, and WORK PLAN A. NO MORE R/M/A talk for now...AT ALL!!!!

You can hash through it AFTER your marriage reaches a point where recovery is an option. Right now, you're working against yourself in your efforts to rebuild/recover.

Go back, read the carrot and stick of plan A again....MORE CARROT this time!!!!!!!!!!

I appreciate the "kick a person when thier down" attitude I get from some members here.

Yes, its frustrating when people give great advice and the poster CANT do it. Its not that I am not listening or want to continue this slide. Its just my emotions overpower my rational thinking constantly. I want this pain to go away so badly, I try to do anything that day to try and lessen it. And every time it doesn't work. I get it. But when I hurt so badly and are just looking for a little positivity from my WW, I try and get it. Its like golf. 90% of your shots suck, but that one awesome shot keeps you coming back for more. Thats kinda how this is. Every once in awhile, she will throw me that bone that makes me feel empowered, makes the hurt lessen, or gives me hope, so I continue to search for that, instead of sticking to my plan. I understand that will get me nowhere and I am working on getting myself in control. Please understand I am borderline insane right now and am desperately trying to get myself together, because: 1 I don't enjoy living like this and 2. I could lose my job, as my performance has sufferred very badly because of the mental stress I am under.

Yes, I run my plan and work it, but then I deviate from it and it kills any momentum that I had gained. I realize this. Sometimes I feel like I just keep sliding down and I need to do grab onto something to stop the slide. Thats when I get those four days in a row of just bad contact from her and am just looking for anything to stop the slide. Sometimes it works, but most times it doesn't. But it is that one time that she stopped the slide, that keeps me coming back. That keeps my wanting to get that crumb thrown my way, to lessen the excruciating pain I am experiencing. Every once in a while she makes me feel good and like she is worth fighting for and this can be saved.

So, in the future, if its possible, please respond to my posts with positivity and constructive criticism, instead of: you are driving me nuts, we have tried to help you but you don't listen, you have gotten the best advice I have ever seen and failed, you make me pull my hair out, we'll see if you try and so on. Thats extremely counterproductive to my psyche right now. I am getting the crap kicked out of me from basically everyone I know, and then I come here for some release and solace from people who have been through this, and get it some more. My parents, friends, everyone want me to move on and get a divorce. I have no one on my side. I really only have 2 people, her parents, that want this marriage to be saved, other than myself, and they are barley communicating with me or doing anything to help save it. So when I come on here and post, I don't need negativity and people questioning whether or not I am listening and that I am driving them crazy. Cause really, what good will that do me? Seriously? How will I gain by you kicking me when i am down? Does it make you feel good? Do you think that will make me change what I am doing, by questioning my will to save my marriage? That I will suddenly turn the light on and say "you know, their right!". I KNOW YOU ARE RIGHT. Its me. I need to get me right.

My will is strong, but my emotional state and mind is weak. I am doing this to myself, and I get that. But I would appreciate positive comments and can accept criticism, but please understand that I really need positivity right now. I don't need people constantly saying I am not listening and I am a failure. This is not a post to enrage people and have ill will towards me, or towards anyone in particular.

Thanks for your continued support,
VS

Let's be blunt. It's not that you CAN'T do it...it's that you WON'T do it. You can do ANYTHING you choose to do. The source of the frustration here is that nearly all of us have been in virtually identical situations. We KNOW what 'can be done'. You came here for advice. You got advice. And you've continually blown it off, ignored it, and the don't like it when you don't see any improvement in your situation.

No problem...I'll waste no more of your time or mine giving you the same advice over and over. I wish you the best of luck.

Vince:

You need 2 change your perspective. Only you can do that. But it's only you that's making the interpretation that we're "kicking you when you're down." That's a strategy for destroying an already-weakened enemy. I would argue that there's no way that any of us has that agenda with you, but your perspective has you thinking it is.

For what it's worth, I'm sorry you feel that way about what I've been saying 2 you, because that isn't my intent.

More like: I'm kicking this bad behavior around. Trying 2 point out, gently at first, but with more vigor when that didn't seem 2 get through, that you can only control your actions, you can't control hers. If your interactions are painful, you can only control how often you have them, what you say during your meetings/calls, and when they end. WALK AWAY as soon as anything hurtful comes from your W's lips, or when you feel like lashing out. Stop it before it gets out of control.

A couple of cliches apply here:

"Can't" never did anything.

What you resist, persists.

I'll wait until you've talked 2 Jennifer before I post again. I'm positive she can help you!<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

We're kicking you because you are laying on the ground refusing to get up. We feel that if we kick you a few times, maybe you'll actually get up so we can't kick you anymore.


There, I fixed it for you. Quit feeling sorry for yourself, get up off the mat, and go DO it. Quit talking yourself out of it. Your WW doesn't want to lose you, that is why she is talking about counseling. She wants to get you to forget about what she has done, wants a D so she doesn't have to feel the guilt, BUT wants to keep you as a friend for emotional support. Show her that you will move past what she has done without making her feel any more guilty that she already feels, and that you won't be her friend if you D. She wants you without the commitment or guilt. Show her (via the 180) that she can't have that. Then she will have to decide what she wants more. Make yourself the more attractive option. It's that simple, yet you make it so hard.

Let me tell you something, Vince. I'm in the same situation as you, but just a few months ahead. My W doesn't wear her wedding ring, she hasn't had SF with me since early August. Not only that, she won't even french kiss me. I spent $300 on her for Valentine's Day, she got me nothing. She won't go to church with me, and she hasn't gone with me to my parent's house for Thanksgiving, Christmas, or Easter. But you know what? I still get by. How? I take comfort in the small steps that we are making. She hasn't contacted OM in 12 weeks. In fact, he has tried to contact her, and she has ignored him. She just sunk $1200 of her bonus on furniture for OUR house. We cuddle on the couch together every night to watch TV. She used to not go out of the house with me (she would hang out with her friends on weekends), now we make plans for EVERY weekend (we went to Mardi Gras, we went to a Blues game and after party, we went to a murder mystery dinner theater, we went out with mutual friends, we are going out with friends to a trivia night this weekend, etc.). We just made plans this weekend to go on a week long vacation together to the Pacific Northwest at the end of May.

I am you, Vince, only about 3 months ahead of your schedule. My W has made no real commitment to the M. She said the same things as you did when I first got her to end her A. She didn't want to be married, we couldn't recover from this, etc. The ONLY difference between you and me is that I'm doing a H*LL of a lot better job at Plan A than you. If you did the same, you would be in the same boat as I am now just a few months down the line. By then, I bet that me and my W will be almost fully recovered.

C'mon, Vince. I know you can do better than this right now. Get up off the mat, dust yourself off, and get going with your plan.

VS, we wouldn't bother if we didn't have compassion for you. We know how much this hurts. But I believe you need someone to kick you in the rear.

Your WW is out there waiting for you to give her a reason to stay married to you. Don't agonize about it--know it! Man, she still calls you "baby".

Getting rejected by OM hurt your WW. She's grieving and she's confused. If you're too offended by that to offer her compassion, that's fine. That's understandable and acceptable. So divorce her. You have every right.

But if you're not ready to do that, then do what Jennifer tells you.

VS,

We express our frustration not to "kick you when you're down" but because we know you will get positive results if you simply followed the advice given.

I would do anything to redo the things I did and have a chance to do them right! We are speaking to you with the benefit of hindsight. Some of us, like me, tell you not to repeat our mistakes. Others, those that succeeded, tell you what works. We are telling you so you can turn this around and get her back.

There's also something to be said about family and friends. Alarm bells should go off when EVERYONE objects to who you are with.

VS, we've been in your shoes. We've suffered through your pain and then some. Believe me, this would be that much more difficult if you went through it with kids.

I offer this link to you which tells you about my time hitting rock bottom so you can understand:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...&PHPSESSID=

I also would like to suggest that you start writing to yourself. It sounds crazy but it works. I did it without being prompted and it is a tool used by counselors to help people heal. I wrote some very interesting things when I did this. Some of the things I wrote were:

"Do not look to exww as a source of support. She doesn't care about how you feel and won't until she regains some feelings for you."
"Your kids are the reason to do everything. You must be strong for them."
"You need to move on with your life."
"Don't care for someone who doesn't care about you."
"You are a charming person and people enjoy talking to you." (I got a big nod on this one with the counselor I was talking to).

VS, go to the link I gave you and see just how low some of us have been.

I also believe you will go through the stages of recovery that most BSs go through, with or without your WW. Read the thread on these boards of the MB vet who has a wayward heart. You will be in his shoes eventually.

Believe me, we're all rooting for you, but we're frustrated because we hold the answers to what you should do, we're passing that info to you, and you don't act on it and allow your emotions to control you. This is where the self parenting and self coaching of writing to yourself will really help.

Read my link, please.

Hi, Vince.

Quote:
========================================
I appreciate the "kick a person when thier down" attitude I get from some members here.
========================================

You have a plan, and yet you persist in wallowing about.

I was doing something similar once when I was young, and my father, in no uncertain terms handed me this admonishment; "Boy, I don't care if you win or lose, but you'd best let 'em know you been there".

Work your plan and get your eyes off yourself, Vince, Focus them on your goal. That's how you let her know that a man has been there.

God bless,
Gimble

I'm sorry if you have ever felt kicked by anyone here. Everyone seems to genuinely care and are really trying to help you.

I fear that you are not listening to your wife. Try listening for awhile, then repeating back to her what you think you hear. That's a real eye opener. She may not mean what you are thinking she means.

Vince,
I know exactly what you are going through. The 10 days will help you detach. Right before I exposed Mrs GF's A, she was at a trade show for about a week. The first few days I was consumed with anxiety and barely able to function. Then I decided to avoid talking on the phone with her while she was away. Minimizing the contact helped. By the time she was back, I was able to think clearly. I had broken through the crux of the addiction and was able to act not as a response from fear but as being goal oriented.

From that time I have understood that I will be OK if Mrs GF takes off. Really, I had been OK even though she had already taken off emotionally. I was just unable to see that I was OK because of my addiction. Do the 180 to gain perspective, except limit yourself to maybe a brief return of her phone call every 3rd day or something. Do not initiate any contact and only allow it to be planned once you are free of your expectations of what might happen. Be too busy to meet your WW. Don't play games. If she asks to meet, tell her you don't feel comfortble around her right now, but don't be drawn into a conversation to explain it to her...tell her you are not comfortable discussing your personal thoughts/feelings with her if she asks. Another good idea might be for you to schedule your own trip to start the day she gets back to increase the amount of time you can remain apart to break the addiction. Once you have your balance back you can dip your toe in the water without fear of drowning. Do you have any friends that you can use for support? If you feel like calling your WW, call them instead. If you feel like going to see her, go see amovie instead.

So now that you are no longer afraid you are going to question whether or not you want to save your M. Why would you feel romantically attached to Mrs Vince? When I asked Steve H about that very thing, he told me, "Of course you don't feel connected to her (romantically). Romantic love is conditional and you cannot fall in love with nothing." Nothing is what I was getting as far as big 3 ENs at that time and I felt GUILTY about not feeling love for Mrs. GF, after all I took my responsibility as a husband very seriously even though I did not have a wife, just a WW.

Anyway, get some distance from her.