It seems to be like this is an attempt to make an affair more "accepted." This article on MSN actually makes me want to puke!

MEDC

http://men.msn.com/articlebl.aspx?cp-documentid=4096355&page=1

You are so judgmental! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

What is wrong with us Americans? Why cant we be more like France? lol

i noticed there is a Victoria's Secret ad on page 2 <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

it does make infidelity sound trivial.
frustrating.

MEDC - It all depends upon one's "worldview," doesn't it?

God - "Thou shalt NOT commit adultery." Period. No "and's, if's, or but's."

World - Do whatever you want to do because what YOU want is all the justification you need. You ARE a "god" unto yourself.

'Nuff said.

Apparently the secret to happiness is to have really low expectations. That's where we're all wrong. If we lower our expectations to the absolute rock bottom, we'll be a "healthy" society like those mythical Europeans these people like to dream up.

I think it transcends religion FH. Even for those that do not believe in God, there often times exists a sense of right/wrong. I know MANY people that would not consider themselves children of God, yet they would be equally put off by this story. Just as I know some Christian's that while they would appear to agree live their lives in complete disobedience to God's law (as well as societial standards).

Hey... this came up for me yesterday... how do you feel about eating shellfish? Are you aware of Leviticus 11: 9-12? My take on it is that it would forbid the eating of any food from the ocean except for fish. It seems pretty clear. Actually, in reading Leviticus there are things in that book that seem very strange indeed. I really don't want to get too far off track here...just wanted a quick thought from you about this.

I hope you are well.

MEDC

Just terrible I am!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

This is OT, but MEDC, you are talking about the kosher laws that observant Jews normally follow. I don't think that Christians feel bound by them but observant or orthodox Jews certainly do. It's really quite common - were you not familiar with kosher laws before now? I am not Jewish but am quite familiar with them (and you are right, shellfish are not kosher because any creature that lives in water must have both fins and scales before being considered fit to eat.)
Mulan

What a load of hooey! So what if Americans are less open-minded; I prefer to think of it as right-minded and I don't buy into this relativistic theory. Grrrr.
I like the line in the movie As Good As It Gets - "Go sell crazy someplace else, where all full over here."
V/r,
No Way

OK, Folks,

You all just don't get it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Let Ole JL set you straight.

Affairs are NO BIG DEAL, if you or your spouse don't have them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Affairs MAYBE NO BIG DEAL, if you and your spouse both have them.

Affairs ARE A BIG DEAL, if you take your vows seriously, but perhaps only if the vows are in English. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

And finally, you can be so open minded that your brains fall out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

That's it from ole JL.

PS: We may be the ultimate capitalist society but not every thing is for sale. In France, pretty much everything is negotiable, including their vows.

Must go, I've heard this stuff before when I am in Europe. Might have to do with marriage being for financial purposes in the richer families being a tradition in Europe. Who knows.

MEDC - I agree with you MEDC, of course it "transcends" religion. God wrote His moral code upon the hearts of all humans regardless of whether or not they were believers in Him. That was the "big" consequence of the Fall, other than spiritual death for all mankind. We KNOW "right and wrong," we just choose "wrong" more often because of our fallen nature.




I don't like most shellfish, so I choose not to eat it. But the answer to your question is best answered by God himself.

"About noon the following day as they were approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared he fell into a trance. He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat."
"Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten any thing impure or unclean."

The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything that God has made unclean." This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven." (Acts 10:9-16, NIV, emphasis added)

Aside from the occurance of 3 times (another discussion perhaps for another day), God made it clear that nothing was "unclean" for a believer.

This was "followed up," if you will, earlier when Jesus spoke.

Jesus called the crowd to him and said, [color:"red"]"Listen and understand. What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.'"[/color] (Matt.15:10-11, NIV, emphasis added)

When asked to explain further this, and the intervening parable, because the Pharisees were upset by what Jesus had said, Jesus explained it further to them.

[color:"red"]"Are you still so dull?"[/color] Jesus asked them. [color:"red"]"Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.'" [/color] (Matt.15:16-20, NIV)

So how might this apply to your choice to eat or not eat something? This is something that Paul addressed:

"As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died.. So not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men. Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall. So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything taht does not come from faith is sin." (Romans 14:14-23, NIV, emphasis added)


I hope that helps clarify what I think. I submit to God and am sensitive to what other believers may think. Therefore, I abstain from some things not because I think they are sinful, but because another brother or sister in Christ might think it is. Liberty in Christ is not a license to do whatever I want regardless of the potential impact it might have on someone else. If, for example, I am having dinner with a fellow believer who believes any alcohol consumption is a sin, and I think a glass of wine is fine, I will abstain. It is NOT an issue of "salvation" or how one IS saved through Christ. It is an issue of submitting my will to God's will in the matter.

God bless.

JL - <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Remember Kathrine Hepburn and Spencer Tracy? Years-long affair... Tracy wouldn't divorce his wife because they were Catholic. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

How when he died, Kathrine chose not to go to his funeral and the world applauded her grace, compassion and courage?

After having seen and been an OW, I guess I do give her *some credit* for not throwing it in the BW's face, but... uh...

...anyway...

I don't believe for ONE SECOND that anyone is "allowing" affairs without great sacrifice, no matter what that stupid article says.

Mulan... I was familiar with Kosher laws... I am just curious as to why Christians do not feel obligated to follow this.
FH.. while I see your obviously well thought out follow up... I feel a bit conflicted and confused as to why the Bible would say that in one place and contradict it in another. Does those parts of Leviticus only apply to non Christians?

It's the "elsewhere" that gets me. How about India? Or Saudi Arabia? Or most of Africa? You will have a hard time finding a place and time where women, at least, are not punished heavily for adultery -- including, say, southern Italy.

You're out of touch, new_beginnings. Hepburn was a lesbian. Tracey a self-torturing, closet homosexual. They were close, but a lot of the PR was to make them both appear straight. It was all written up in "Vanity Fair" a couple months ago.

Seriously? I MUST be WAY out, because I SOOOOO didn't know that!

Dang!

MEDC - I understand your confusion. It's not at all uncommon. Without getting into too much detail right now, we can do that later if you want, let me try to "explain" the difference as concisely as I can.

The Levitical laws you are referring to belong to the "Age of Law." Today, we live in the "Age of Grace." There are many things, such as the Sacrifices in the Temple that applied to the Jews of "olden days." But that ended when the "final sacrifice" was made by Jesus Christ as THE lamb that takes away the sin of the world. No longer is forgiveness of sin found in "doing," it is found in believing in Jesus Christ. In fact, the Jews cannot even do the sacrifices now because the temple does not exist.

Go back and read the passage from Romans. Paul (who was formerly known as Saul) was a "Pharisee of Pharisees." If anyone, other than Jesus himself, KNEW the Old Testament and ALL of the "do's and don'ts" it was Paul. Paul tells us unequivocably that ALL food is clean "in Christ." The "way" to "please God" is in believing in Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord, not in anything we do, eat, or say.

It is fundamentally a Faith issue, and the "old laws" are not "done away with," they are subject to the one who GAVE the laws, God. God decides what is and what is not acceptable. That is the fundamental problem that the Pharisees had with Jesus and why they rejected him and clung to the "old ways."

"Those parts" of Leviticus do not apply to anyone today. They only "apply" because people still refuse to come to Jesus and prefer to live by the "old ways." The caution to believers is that if another believer still believes that it is a sin to do something, even if you understand that it is not, then you refrain from eating the "objectionable" food in their presence so as not to put a stumbling block in front of a "weaker" brother in the faith.

God bless.

Notice the inverse proportion of women's rights to tolerance in the world's countries??

Duh.

I'm offended by infidelity just due to that tiny little golden rule. I don't need an entire book or scripture to tell me what's right and wrong, and intentionally destroying the foundation of others, especially children, by being shortsighted and selfish, well, it's just evil.

I'm pretty sure the author has never been on the receiving end...