JJ... I have just one question...

Why did it hurt you that your H had an affair? I am not trying to be flippant...but I don't understand how one could be so hurt by something that was predictable and most likely will be repeated again and again.

I agree with BK that you would not have to re marry your exH(repentance in my opinion also... and I know FH disagrees with this... would require you to not be with your current H).

You are now married to a serial cheater. I think it is fair to say that you should expect the worst in this situation and not be too surprised by infidelity if it should visit your doorstep. I have read many times that the way that a relationship begins is indicative of how things will go.

I would ask FH a question here. You mentioned the other day that if you were aware that something offended a fellow Christian that you would not engage in that activity in their company. While I think you have the right to post as you please... it should be obvious to you that a person in an affair marriage if offensive to many people on this site... and with darn good reasn... yet here you are, inviting that very person into a discussion that you know will offend many people here. Why is that?

MEDC

FH,

I am writing my reply in WORD (yep, I had to learn that lesson over and over again too. After losing another lengthy reply I am now going to write in WORD so I can avoid that.) So I am going to reply to both posts. I will just use quotation marks since I won’t be able to use the quote feature. Hope this make sense.

“Jilly - sorry for the delay in responding. I've been a bit "covered up" lately and I don't see that changing any time soon. Hence my "MB" related posting and responding to email messages has been limited.”

No need to ever apologize about the time to respond. I just wasn’t sure how you find posts so since I see people doing the “bump” thing I thought I would give it a try.

I am not sure what you mean by the phrase “covered up” does that mean really busy? Just asking for clarification.

“Can God forgive adultery?
Can God forgive drug abuse?
Can God forgive swearing, drunkeness, thievery, gossiping...etc.?

What is impossible for God to forgive?

Do our CHOICES in life, forgiven or not, have consequences that are attached to them?”

Yes… HE can forgive all of those things. Nothing is impossible for Him to forgive.

Yes, all of our choices have consequences attached to them. I don’t think my issue is about accepting the consequences for my sins but rather that in some areas of my life I lack some coping skills… think I should be asking for help? I do.

“Just how important is it to you that Jesus gave up his life for you in willing obedience to God the Father's will, even though his human desire was to NOT have to do what the Father had commanded of him? After all, NOT ONE OF US was "worthy of" or "merited" his dieing for us, let alone our being forgiven and justified in the eyes of God because of anything we had done.”

Well FH when you say it that way it sounds again that I have taken that sacrifice granted and I am sorry for losing my way is selfish thinking again. You are correct… none of are worthy or merit the cross. I never thought about the idea that Jesus (in his human form) didn’t want to do what God commanded of Him. This is just not something I ever considered before. Makes his sacrifice all the more when you think of it like that.

“Jilly, I remember well your struggle when we first talked. I remember well the doubts that you could be forgiven.

Do you remember?” I do….

“Now I hear "excuses" for not doing what you know you should do. Okay, that's human, so I can understand that. We all do similiar things from time to time. But HOW does a "mere mortal" cope and deal with all the temptations in life? How does a "mere mortal" understand their self worth to God?”

You’re right you are hearing “excuses” and I appreciate you pointing that out to me. As a Christian… we need accountability from other members of the body and so I thank you for that.

“If you do not associate regularly and consistantly with "God's people," just HOW do you expect to "recharge" your batteries after they have been worn down each week in the task of living in the world?”

Well said and point taken… I can’t. I can’t do this alone. I need God but I also need to be with other believers. I know I feel better… stronger when I go so I have been disrespectful to God and also to self for NOT doing what I know I can be doing to receive that recharge I so badly need.

“Jilly, let me make a confession to you. I nailed Jesus to the Cross as surely as those who were present at the crucifixion did. It was MY sin that Jesus died for. It was MY shortcomings and human sin that drove the spikes into Jesus. It was my "monkey" of preference for doing wrong that stuck a spear in Jesus' side. It was my slavery to Satan that crowned Jesus with sharp thorns. It was my refusal to submit to God as my sovereign Lord that caused Jesus to die. How unworthy of His sacrifice for me SO THAT God could forgive me and adopt me as his child, regardless of how totally despicable I was as a sinner. How undeserving of God's love, that he would take me, flaws and all, and create in me a clean heart in his eyes, and reshape me into something more pleasing to him, worthy to be called his child and the bride of his Son.”

I don’t know if you really know how much it means to me to hear YOU say this so thank you for sharing that part with me. It is good to know that I am not alone in my waywardness toward God. ( I don’t mean wayward the way it is typically used here… just wanted to make sure and clarify that. I will NOT go down THAT road again… ever.) But I think we can be wayward to God… does this make sense?

“How's YOUR head feeling these days?”

Pretty bruised from banging it into the same wall. Yep… stubborn I know that one.

“Jilly, how do you worship God if you do not attend the weekly gathering together of the saints?

How do you get fed from the living Word of God if you do not regularly hear the Word faithfully exposited?”

Well I haven’t stopped studying the bible but you are right here too… I am NOT getting it explained the way I personally need to and I am not obeying my commitment consistently to show up and give praise.

“Jilly, I spoke to you some time ago about "God's triangle of marriage" and the sure truth that as both husband and wife begin walking toward God, getting closer to God with each step, they WILL grow closer to each other also, because that is the EFFECT of the CAUSE of becoming more Christ-like. The process of Sanctification is not the ONLY promise that God makes to believers. God also promise the "results," the "effects" of that process on the WHOLE of our lives, and that includes our "one flesh" marital life.”

Yes, you have talked to me about this before and I can see the effect that is in fact occurring. I think the further away from God I get the more withdrawn spiritually, emotionally, physically, I become. Withdrawing into self is a signal for me. It is old habit. It cycles into a sort of out of sorts feeling mimicking depression. The more I stay in that space the more I don’t want to do anything… I get stuck. But I am not doing what I know helps me get unstuck. Church helps break that cycle. I know you understand what I mean by this.

“COULD you be hurt again? Sure, just like I could. But that's only possible if one or both of us turns our back on Jesus and walks away. As long as we are walking toward God, with Christ, it is Jesus who is leading us and keeping us on the path that avoids the snares and pitfalls that might seek to entice us into infidelity, or drug abuse, or any of a host of "self-centered" sins.”

You are right again here… I know this. I do know this. Thanks for reminding me that I DO know this.

“Getting tired of hitting that wall with your head yet?” Yep… I am. What is that old definition of insanity… when you do the same thing and expecting different results. Jesus is our HELMET.

“Read the above quotes again and again. Read them every Monday and every Friday. If you need "sticky notes" to help you for a while, USE THEM. NOT ONE OF US can "do it alone."

I am just going to print that part out and put one copy in my bible and one on the mirror in the bathroom so I can see it each morning when I am getting ready for my day.

“Stay faithful to your commitments that were quoted from your post. Trust God to be faithful to His promises.”

I am going to FH… because I know it is true.

And from your second post…

“Jilly, I just wanted to make sure you understand what NOW is saying here, or at least what I think was being said.

This is a "attitude" or a "motivation" issue. It is NOT that we are not to do some things, we are. But it is founded in obedience to God not in "bargaining with God" so that "if I do this" God MUST "do that" or "give me what I want."

Let me put it to you in God's words, as they are definitive for believers and needs to be the first place we turn to for guidance that comes from God.

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." (Ephesians 2:8-10, NIV, emphasis added)

"DOING" does not "earn" us "rightness" with God. Christ has already done that on our behalf. It is DONE. We (believers) are now a "new creation" IN CHRIST JESUS. God already did that "work," that "work" that we were incapable of doing on our own.”

I do understand this… because I KNOW it isn’t about works or bargaining. Sometimes God says yes, sometimes he says wait, and sometimes he says NO. I do get that. Although I have been disobedient to God I know my salvation does not rest on if I am good or not good. If I fall… the problem isn’t with the fall it is with returning to the fold and repenting. Obeying isn’t about bargain… it to me is about working towards sanctification. This occurs not from works but from working on our relationship with Our Father. The stronger our relationship is with Him the easier it will be for us to obey and not be so stubborn about it. If I am off here correct me. It also doesn’t mean we are a Saturday night sinner and a Sunday morning reformer. God knows our hearts and the difference between repentance and trying to cover up willful disobedience with just showing up. He knows our hearts. He really does…. There is a difference between open defiance and struggle… at least in my opinion.

“Included among those things is to "grow in the faith." It is very difficult, don't you think, to "grow in anything," let alone to "grow in maturity and understanding in the faith," if you don't study, don't go to school, don't do the DOING of learning what God has said, to be earnestly seeking after what God HAS said and IS saying to us?”

I do think it is very difficult and I do get what you are saying here.

“Read God's Word. How else will you KNOW what God has said?”

You won’t… you have to study.

“Regularly attend church because the PRIMARY purpose of church, of the gathering together of the saints, is to WORSHIP God and to learn more about what God has said in His Word as the Pastor faithfully exegetes (explains) what God has said as the Lord guides him through the Holy Spirit.

Learn what "Tools" God has already provided to believers that they can use to combat temptations and Satan. READ Ephesians 6:10-18. "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." (Eph.6:12)”

What does that mean… the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms?

“So it's easy to "believe" the lie of Satan that we are "not good enough for God." That's because it IS founded in TRUTH. But it is twisted as a lie of Omission. It's like telling your spouse that you are going to the store. You ARE going to the store, but you are also taking a "side trip" to visit a partner in adultery. You just "leave out that part." Satan does the same thing. You and I, NOW and every other person on the face of the planet, ARE "unworthy" of God. THAT IS THE POINT of the NECESSITY of Jesus' sacrifice IN OUR PLACE and ON OUR BEHALF. Forgive my "shouting," but we need to HEAR God when Satan attempts his lies.”


You can shout the TRUTH anytime you want… it needs to be heard. I need to hear that.

His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

That is a powerful statement. I reread it about 10 times. It just really hits me… the power of that statement. The truth of it.

“Jilly, forgiving, both ourselves for the wrongs we have committed and other believers for the wrongs they have done to us, has already been done by God because Jesus already took all of our sins and covered them with His blood. Satan says "Ya, but...." to get us to doubt that God REALLY did mean what God has said, "while we were yet sinners."

I know this is true… biblically that this is correct but is this not a concept that is shared by all Christians? I am not being sarcastic here… I really want to know if this is a belief that is shared by all Christian based faith. I don’t think I am asking this right but I hope you can understand the question I am trying to ask here.

“We repent of those sins because God commands us TO repent. Why? Does he "need" our repentance to be ABLE to forgive us? Not any more than God needs us be a part in His saving grace. God does NOT "need" us to "do something" to merit His grace. He GIVES IT TO US, and all we have to is to receive it. We repent BECAUSE God first changes our hearts and gives a heart that IS inclined toward God, and inclined to knowing and doing what is in concert with God's Will, and not in opposition to God's Will.”

Okay, I want to make sure I am not confused here… how can God forgive us if we don’t repent… I mean I know He can because He can do anything but I am confused. doesn’t he want us to repent? Again… I really want to make sure I understand this.

“Repentance is something we "do" because God gave us "Free Will" SO THAT we can choose to show our love FOR God by humble submission of our will, our thoughts, our actions, TO God and His Will in the matter. We TURN and LEAVE sin that we are convicted of because we now recognize that sin and God do not go together and neither should they be a part of our lives as His children.”

It makes more sense to me here… because this is how we Honor Him show our love.

“What NOW is getting as it this, Trust God, Obey God, understand that now you ARE God's child and no longer Satan's child. If you believe that God is faithful to all of His promises to His children, and that no one can "overrule God," then you will DO what is commanded out of love for God and not out of an attitude of "what's in it for me."

FH… I hope I don’t have a what’s in it for me attitude about it… but I do feel more at peace and I have relief when I do what I know what God wants me to do. Is that wrong of me to want that peace… and relief? If God says no Jilly I am not going to give you that then I am not going to not go to church or try to bargain with Him… I don’t mean it like if I don’t feel the peace I need that I am going to stop going… but what I am asking is is it wrong for me to want that?

Thanks for checking in on me.

Big K~

Okay... my mistake I thought I remembered you saying that I would need to remarry my first H. So if I mispoke I apologize to you.

I don't see it as whoops and like it is all behind me now. I am living with the consequences of my own sins... and my H is living with the consequences of his sins and we are both collectively living with our sins. I don't take it lightly... it has been devastating... and hard to know that my own choices have contributed to my own suffering.

I know we don't agree about the divorce issue, but it doesn't mean I don't value or respect your beliefs. I hope you know that.

I know you don't "hate" me or anyone... but I also know what I represent to you... someone who you don't think is repentant. It's okay Big K ... I really have come to terms with the fact that there is a strongly divided belief about it and you would say the same thing to anyone in my shoes. I did say I thought you "couldn't stand me" which I can certainly understand and accept.

I get that too. It's why I try to keep a low profile and only accept help from those who have chosen to offer it. I don't plan to jump into discussion.

MEDC~

Truthfully MEDC because I really didn't GET it until it happened to me. I didn't have any idea that it was predictable until I came to this site and did some serious reading. I didn't ever engage in another A so it was my own naive assumption that it wouldn't happen again.

If it happens again ( I know I will not ever participate in it again because that is a line I will not cross ever again. I know the devastation now.) then I will chose to divorce because that is my boundary now. My H knows this. If he chooses this he chooses to end our marriage. I cannot stop him. He is responsible for all of his choices. I am clear on the action I will take if that line is crossed.

*sigh *

I left this place MONTHS ago largely because of the support for sustaining affair marriages; now I dip my toe back in here to find it still alive. Ah well, clearly my time here has passed.

I wish Jilly no personal ill, and I have no doubts she is very repentant of her own affair, now that she has been on the receiving end of one.

JJs marriage is Squid and OM if they had married. How would I feel if the folks here were helping THAT "marriage" when it stumbled ( as they all do ) in future ?

What message does this send to newly repentant waywards, struggling with needful feelings for their OP and seeing AFFAIRS marriages being selectively and spuriously "legitimised" via scripture by forum elders ?

I see the David and Bathsheba example used often to legitimise affair marriages. Does it also legitimise the murder of our OW's BS in order to get what we want ?

I am ALL for people working to help sure up this ill-starred kind of "marriage" if they feel compelled so to do but IMO it is an act of hurtful arrogance to do so in the face of a marriagebuilding community to whom an affair marriage is the worst of all possible outcomes of the pain they currently endure.

If you KNEW that a BS as desperately in fear of affair-marriage as Mike ( click here) was reading these pages, would you STILL have a discussion legitimising affair marriages in his face, forcing a lesson in forgiveness on him ?

Well can you be sure on ANY GIVEN DAY that this painful place does NOT have any such desperate people reading ?

Mike is why the enablement of affair marriages should take place away from here IMO.

Hi b0b--

Good to see you're still around.

I must confess to being oblivious to the whole supporting-affair-marriages thing -- been dealing with enough of my own.

I do pitch my tent in the camp of those offended by the "legitimization" of such a marriage. If my wife and I had divorced and she remarried any of her OM, I would be tempted to quit MB and give up if I saw folks on here legitimizing her sham marriage just because her scumbag "Other-Man-Husband" was (*surprise*) cheating on her or she was cheating on him (*double surprise*).

I feel for JustJilly's pain and do hope she has taken time to make a better apology to her first husband now that she really understands the agony she put him through. OK, I don't know JustJilly's history or backstory and I may get some flame for that, but it's not that bad of an idea.

Cheers, b0b.

Hi BK--

I was totally oblivious to the whole "affair-marriage" thing until I saw b0b Pure's post and clicked to say "hi" to him.

I posted that I fit in the "affronted" camp.

I'm thinking of moving my tent to the edge of the "affronted" camp where it borders with the "sad for this situation" camp.

I truly am sad for JustJilly.

I guess I'm super-imposing my wife on her. I'm still married to my wife and still love her. And it's in that love that I'm imagining how devastated she would have been if she had divorced me to marry her scum-of-the-earth affair-partner-in-crime only to find out he was cheating on her.

Should she (my wife and JustJilly) have seen it coming? Yep.

Was it equally possible she would have been the one to cheat on him? Yep.

The affair marriage was founded in lies and deceit, the vows a sham (I wonder if they used the "forsaking all others" vow?).

But it's still a person devastated by a betrayal of trust -- regardless of whether or not it was expected to happen.

I don't "honor" her affair-marriage, but I am sad for her.

I said in my post to b0b that I wonder if it would matter to her first husband (the one she betrayed) to extend a better apology for the pain she put him through now that she's had a small taste of it? I'm trying to decide if it would mean anything to me if I was in his shoes and my wife came back to simply say "I'm sorry, I understand much better now how horrible my betrayal of you was."

Thoughts

I don't think anyone is saying it's not sad Artor.

But - the mantra if you like on this site is "The affair always ends"; "Affairs are always wrong"

Frankly, JJ is the BS's nightmare and the WS's hope.

except of course JJ's affair marriage has now turned into her nightmare. But it's still an affair - an ongoing one.

Post deleted by notonlywords_

NOW

My objection is NOTHING to do with JJs forgiveness status. God's grace is available to her as it is to me or everyone and it is wonderful.

But the consequences of our sin are seperate from our forgiveness of it.

Do you see how supporting an affair marriage might be hurtful to BS and new FWS ?

I would just take this support to a place where it might be less upsetting to many onlookers.

** Hello BTW <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Hope all is BRILLIANT with you. We got a basket weave loo roll holder in the end.:)

NOW - did you repent of your sin (turn from it) when you recieived forgiveness? Can you not see that an affair marriage is LIVING in adultery and hasn't been repented of? I am of course unable to comment on where anyone stands before the Lord - only the person and the Lord know that.

NOW--

For my part, I'm not questioning God's ability or willingness to forgive.

If JustJilly has confessed her sin to God, He has forgiven her. God's forgiveness is wonderful -- He's forgiven me of some pretty bad stuff.

I'm missing where it was said or implied that forgiveness legitimized the affair....I certainly don't believe that.

No one on this board is owed an apology from JustJilly or are being asked to offer forgiveness to her.

Unless, of course, her first husband or children post here...they deserve the apologies and have the option to offer forgiveness to her.

JustJilly's relationship with God is her own business -- as she might choose to seek advice from others on here she can and appears to be getting sound, scriptural guidance.

But if you put JustJilly in Nineveh's place and a "Jonah" was sent to warn her about her infidelity in her first marriage how does that play out?

Jonah would have warned her that God was going to destroy her if she had an affair. She had one anyway. She divorced her husband who she betrayed and married her affair-partner. What would God have done to Nineveh?

Just not sure the story fully lines up.

Post deleted by notonlywords_

Post deleted by notonlywords_

NOW - I really only posted here on this thread to be sure you knew JJ's story - that was my sole purpose - I do really just ignore her.

The Bible is indeed full of God's forgiveness. Always accompanied by repentance. Even Jesus said - Your sins are forgiven - go and sin no more.

Repentance is one of the Basic Biblical doctrines in Hebrews 6.

How does someone turn from their sin of adultery and still remain in an adulterous relationship?

God's forgiveness does not give us licence to continue sinning although it is a "get out of jail free card"

See people like JJ say, I'm forgiven, Praise God!!!! let's get married. Woo Hoo. But they miss the turning from their sin bit.

Post deleted by notonlywords_

Post deleted by notonlywords_

NOW--


Agreed -- again, God's ability and willingness to forgive is far above and beyond man's ability.

But regarding the Israelites...

Yes, they prostituted themselves in idol worship.

The book of Hosea provides a beautiful picture of God's patience with Israel.

But through all of that time, God made it clear His blessing of the nation of Israel was tied to their faithfulness to Him.

When they strayed into infidelity by worshipping idols, they were punished. They repented and were faithful to God and they were rescued/blessed. The book of Judges illustrates this.

JustJilly's marriage to her second husband, the affair marriage, somewhat parallels the nation of Israel. How can God give His blessing to a marriage conceived through and a product of marital infidelity?

God, in many cases, allowed the Israelites to reap what they sowed.

I'm not saying this to be mean or vindictive toward JustJilly -- as I said earlier, I'm sad for her situation. As I read her account of confronting her affair-partner-husband outside the OW's apartment, I felt her fear, her inability to breathe, her nausea -- I've been there a few times.

Blessings

LOL NOW!!

JJ, having put herself in the position she is in finally understands the pain she inflicted on another person - her own BS and her affair partners BS. It is sad.