This is one of the most illogical threads I have seen on this site.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
Do we need a rating system now? BS Safe? WS Safe, What?

Everything else is just Opinion.

And we all have those.

Which beliefs are you referring to, NOW?

Post deleted by notonlywords_

FH wrote:

"This is a "group counseling site" in much the same way that "group counseling" happens everywhere for victims. Individual "counseling" or discussion can, and often does, happen, but the nature of this site IS "group therapy." I'm personally not a big believer in "group therapy" for most individuals, preferring individual counseling."

FH, this site isn't even close to being a "group therapy site". Group therapy would have trained professionals leading the group, it would be grounded on psychological principles, and it's purpose would be to work through various issues in the safety of a group. MB is more of a "self-help group". Most of us, BS and (F)WS alike, are brought here due to the trauma of infidelity, with the goal of saving and recovering our Ms. Or just recovering ourselves when the M can't be saved. It would be more akin to an AA group. We are people trying to recover from the devestation of an A. There are people who are in a similar place that can relate to our pain in the present. And there are good souls here farther along in this journey offering hope of recovery. You wrote to now:

"Which beliefs are you referring to, NOW?"

I can't believe you are not getting what Bob and others are saying here. As a BS, when I was fighting for my M, in the deepest pain of my life, if I would have seen an A M being supported here on MB I would have most likely quit this site. If I would have quit this site I doubt H and I would have survived his A. MB gave me the tools to battle his A, and it kept me going.

If my H, during his withdrawal, when he thought OW was the love of his life, had seen an A M being supported, it would have given him hope that A Ms can be good and valid. It's what he wanted to see back then. Anything so he wouldn't have to break his addiction.

Personally I don't really care what happens or doesn't happen to JJ and her M. I don't wish her harm. It's a confusing sitch because she and her H do have a child together. And I'm not going to get into all the bible talk either. Bob's example is perfect. Would you have a rapist in the same self-help group with rape victims? Even if that rapist is fully repentant, for the newly raped person, that would be quite traumatic. So why not just start a yahoo group or something for people here in A Ms gone bad who want to keep their Ms? What's wrong with that idea?

MEDC - that's where you are completely wrong, I do care, and that has been shown to be "wrong" unless it is restricted to someone who has not been a WS.

But I do "get the message" that you are all making. No one who is in anything but their original marriage is welcome here for help with their current situation or others will sit in terminal judgment of them, perhaps even gloating as BK has done.

I'm not sure this site is worth it anymore if it's come to the selectivity you all advocate. Nevermind that someone could have made a terrible mistake, they will "pay for it for the rest of their lives."

Compassion? Let's pass that mirror around. "There but for the grace of God go I." Doesn't apply.

Forgiveness of sin for anyone who finds Jesus after committing sins, not possible. Or at the very least they get to wear a scarlet letter for the rest of their lives.

But why don't we just let this thread die? You've all driven JustJilly away anyway, so you've all accomplished your mission anyway.

Jilly, I am truly sorry that you have had to suffer at the hands of such helpful people. Perhaps the next second or third marriage person, especially if they were once a WS, will get a word of warning to NEVER tell anyone that they are in anything but their first marriage.

You've all driven JustJilly away anyway, so you've all accomplished your mission anyway.

Such melodramatics, when Jilly's here on another thread talking to lovinganyway, clearly still here getting support.

Why won't you answer my basic question FH ?

Would you counsel a rapist in a room full of rape victims because you are not responsible for any hurt they may feel as result of your choice so to do ?

Please answer in as few words as possible.

Compassion? Let's pass that mirror around.

Your compassion for the ONE is clear. Where is your compassion for the MANY FH ?

I am ADVOCATING help for JJ , but in a way that does not hurt many others. How is that not compassionate ?

are in anything but their first marriage.

What is THIS manipulative drivel ? Who on EARTH has ever HINTED that second marriages are a problem for anyone on here ? AFFAIR marriages whether first , second or TENTH marriages is a problem for me and MANY, but second marriages not based on adultery are common and well supported on these boards.

To say that I / "we " only accept first marriages is wholly your construct based on no evidence whatsoever.

You have slated my/our unforgiveness, hurled scripture at us / me, much of it only loosely relevent, accused us / me of driving Jilly away while she is on another thread and now you are inventing prejudice against second marriages that hasn't even been hinted at.

PLEASE cut the drama and just help JJ out in a quiet place.

FH,

Jesus knows your heart and your intent. I am the one who is truly sorry that your very Christian beliefs have come into question and that you have been the brunt of anger that isn't fair.

I can see them being mad... offeneded outraged at me but I don't understand why they continue to attack you for helping a leper such a myself. No I am NOT feeling sorry for myself. I made the choice to honestly disclose the details of my situation. If I had only told half the truth... only the part that I was a BS then I would have had a whole team of support but because I chose to tell the whole truth I have earned a permanent scarlet letter.

Sadly in many ways it is harder to stay in a M that began the way mine did then jump ship and divorce. My choice. I don't believe I am not forgiven by God because I do believe that the cross and the ultimate sacrifice was a gift that is also extended to me no matter how dispicable my sins are.

We are all responsible for our choices and with those choices the consequences of them. In my very humble opinion (which will mean little to most) I happen to believe that you someone who survived a terrible personal situation with your wife's A made your own choice as a hurt BS to try to help me. It is the kind of action I think Jesus himself would have taken. And what is the is the question we as fellow believers are to ask ourselves... am I wrong or aren't we supposed to ask ourselves what would Jesus do?

I am not upset about the way they feel about me... I get it. But I do take extreme offense to way they lash out at you and some of the comments made to you... one in very particular was extremely offensive and so out of line I was tempted to notify the moderator. Discussion is one thing but when someone resorts to calling someome a "mental masturbator" and tries to say it is okay to say that because they speak the Lord's truth... I don't know somehow I find that extremely offensive.

So FH... I am sorry. I am sorry that you extending Christian support to me has caused pain to anyone here and especially sorry that you have had to take the brunt of the anger.

Everything you have ever told me... you were always able to back up with scripture. I have looked up the scriptural reference you post and have never seen you try to twist HIS words to suit your "opinion".

I will totally respect if you feel that you can no longer post to me... and I will understand. I also want to say just in case this is the last time we speak that you are God's servant and have demonstrated to me the most clear example of Christianlike love.

God Bless you for today and for all the days this world is a better place because of you.

Thank you for all of your help FH... thank you.

I wanted to tell you also that I am not forgetting my committments and will be in the front row of our church tonight. I will offer a prayer of thanks for people like you in this world.

Justjilly

Allow me to explain my position before you seal and mail FH's martyrdom nomination....

On D-day, after I discovered Squid's infidelity in the most disgusting way possible, I asked my FWW how she could be so calm. She replied "Well, its not a surprise to me is it ?"

It may be that the A is over by d-day, in which case the WS has had time to deal some of their their feelings about the A. In any case the affairs' cause and effects have been experienced over a time period much more conducive to human emotional processing.

By contrast the BS loses everything in a millisecond. EVERYTHING. Hope, trust, love, faith, future, past, breath. EVERYTHING. We are TRULY and UTTERLY broken : dysfunctional: hopeless. Helpless.Loveless. Godless. Dead but walking.

Everything we have ever considered to be true and good is taken from us before the breath of confirmation has fully left our WS mouth.

I am not sure that anyone who has not experienced an unexpected d-day as a BS can ever truly realise what is taken from us, and what is visited upon us.

For sure, many WS realise over time that the A was a bad thing - most regret them, many recover from them. But all occurs to a timetable more supportive of experiencing trauma than the immediate shotgun blast to the soul that BS experience.

The vastness of the betrayal and destruction is missing: the overwhelming immediate, looming perspective of utter hopelessness that BS see in that fateful second on d-day is never experienced nor even comprehended by WS IMO.

Maybe that in itself is a grace - what loving FWS could ever live on after they know the waking damnation they have knowingly visited upon one who loves them?

A BS' whole life infrastructure is blasted away in that second - the floor falls away to reveal a Hieronymus Bosch vision of he[/i]ll - snatching demons waiting to claim us. he[i]ll seemingly clawing at our heels.

For WEEKS after that revelation we have no hope - literally. All is lost - no stone remains within us upon which we can lay another stone in rebuilding. We cannot even rely on our OTHER trust relationships ( relatives,friends) because our trust has been blasted into pieces. The machine within us that generates and sustains love and trust is irreparably broken - seized with no hope of repair. We have scorched earth where once our love, values and hopes stood.

We lose even the IMAGINATION that the devastation will one day recede. We are visited with seemingly eternal hopelessness. I believe that he[i][/i]ll - eternal sepration from the love of God - will feel a little like the first few days after d-day.

We cannot eat, as food becomes dry poison to choke us. The fear wells up and manifests in dry retching and tears. It HURTS to cry when ones tears are all used up.

I suffered a physical breakdown - ague, pallor, total loss of toilet function for days. I thought I was dying and I welcomed death as a salve, truly.

The grief is as tangible as the day I held my dear Mom's hand as she died, but is without the hope I felt then.

Guilt, fear, unworthiness, self-loathing, embarrassment, humilation, indignation, hatred of self, others, the world, God - there is NO negative sensation that is not experienced FULL ON by a BS and we go from everything to nothing in a milisecond.

If I ever undergo this again it WILL kill me. I will not recover.

By God's support, the wonderful people on MB and a studied application of Dr. Harley'sprinciples I managed to kill the affair, and start a recovery process in my life and marriag ethat continues today. Green shoots are starting to sprout in the blasted and choked landscape of our lives after almost THREE YEARS of high effort.

My dear Squid's pure intention on d-day was an affair marriage to OM. She swore up and down it was true love, she'd never loved me as she does him. I had to work hard, brave and smart to end that affair, force OM out of our lives and set to work on rebuilding our broken lives.

Its been hard enough to regain some happiness despite my ending their affair. Had the affair continued and led to an affair marriage, I do believe I would have died or murdered.

My story is nearly identical to so MANY Bs on these boards - all of them hold the affair-marriage of their WS to be the very nadir of their hopes.

So your situation , receving help and pseudo legitimiztion of this embodiment of evil to a BS on a forum where the overwhelming majority of readers and posters are BS is truly offensive IMO. Affair marriages appear to mock and insult the efforts of BS in plan to retain some dignity while behaving as uninstinctively as a doormat.

And consider also what your presence represents to new FWS , who truly believe they will always love OP and can't live without them, and that trying to uphold their marriage vows is futile ? They donpt know about or believe Harleys withdrawal timeframe : that additive feelings for OP lesses after six weeks of NC to become almost nothing over time. They believe they are in love.

Would you advise a young girl , feebly coming home from an affair and looking for guidance ? " Go for it girl ! Find love with your OM, not your BH then find God - you'll be off the hook !" because that is the message your public seeking of advice here presents to them. We already had "the new pink paige" taking that view a few months ago on your thread.

JustJilly I truly wish you no ill, and I would have you counselled in your new faith, but in good conscience I cannot accept meekly the message that the support for your affair marriage sends hurting BS and wavering new FWS who are trying to do the right thing.

Lovinganyway and I have very differing views of infidelity, and I am sure you will find her very helpful, but I hope, not in a public MARRIAGEBUILDING forum.

Would you counsel a rapist in a room full of rape victims, Jilly, some of whom had been raped that very day ? Would that be appropriate ? I ask you to think about that.

I will offer a prayer of thanks for people like you in this world.


Not nasty people like me, huh, Jilly, who has ALSO helped DOZENS of people survive the abyss after being betrayed, and counselled them to achieve the affair-fighting success I have had most freely over the years ?

All blessings

I offer my prayer of thanks for people like BobPure

Well said, BobPure, and I agree with every word. It is not that anyone here wants to deny JJ help, it is that is it inappropriate in a place that serves as a refuge for victims of affairs. As Bob pointed out, that is like giving aide and comfort to the rapist in a room full of fresh rape victims. JJ is no victim, but the BS's here are victims.

While I don't want to get into the forgiven/not forgiven debate, I very much support Bob's point that it is cruel to offer support in an environment where many folks are on the edge of a nervous breakdown because of the trauma of an affair. Dr. Harley likens the trauma to that of a RAPE, I place it right up there with the death of a child. I don't see that some here understand how very traumatic it really is lest they wouldn't want to rub salt in the wound.

Many folks have asked you nicely to take it elsewhere, if you don't, you don't, but please try and show a little compassion for the folks here. It would hurt nothing to take this to a private forum and many would be very appreciative.

Bravo BobPure!!! I am very thankful for you and all that you offer here...

What gets me is the sense of entitlement that Jilly still obviously carries...That she somehow DESERVES to be helped in this venue full of victims...It truly makes my head spin in astonishment...

And the argument by Jilly that she could have gotten TONS of help here if she would only have LIED-It speaks VOLUMES that that argument would even occur to her...I would certainly HOPE that she has learned just what lying gets you...SHEESH...So we should give her a hero cookie for telling the truth about her affair marriage? Sorry, that doesn't fly with me..."Hero Points" DENIED!

As for the forgiveness issue...I have no doubt that God has the grace and mercy to forgive Jilly...A no brainer in my book...Forgiveness does NOT however erase consequences...IMO, one of the consequences that Jilly should decently SELF IMPOSE would be not seeking help in this forum...I don't have hate for Jilly, but I do ABHOR her behavior/participation in this arena...

Mrs. W

Well said Bob. Most of the time I like FH and find his input very valuable... but man, can he play the martyr like no other. I just don't understand what is so hard to understand about how a person in an A marriage could be offensive to people that have SUFFERED infidelity. And yes, although FH likes to use a lot of words... and questions... when "answering" questions, he rarely gets to the point.

I am not condemming JJ. I just happen to agree that on an infidelity site that a person in an A marriage is offensive. Your point Bob about the counseling of rapists is well put and not surprisingly, it wasn't answered.

Thanks for your input... and I can say that I am most grateful that I ran into you, Plank and ML when I first arrived here. Had I shown up and found a thread where an A marriage was being counseled, I would have not stayed around and found the help I needed from you good people.

MEDC

bOb pure*,

I was also a BS though I know many believe I deserved that. I accept that is their posistion. I am also a human being with real feelings too despite the horrible sins I have committed against those who didn't deserve it.


For the record (and I know it was MR. W who said it NOT you so I apolize to you for mentioning it in my response to you as it is not directed toward you at all Bob.) when I said I could have lied about my personal situation it was only after reading HERE that there are other A marriages here... since I am the only one that I personally know of who has been open about it even though I have heard this said before it was posted again on this thread. It never occured to me to LIE about it... I own the shame of my actions and have never hid what I have done.

I said I could have lied about it because if there are other A marriages here those people in them that are receiving support here must be LYING about them because I cannot imagine that if anyone else was truthful about them that they would receive a warm reception. That was my only point. If my comment came across somehow as me secretly wishing I hadn't personally exposed myself I also apologize to Mrs. Wondering because that wasn't what I meant by what I said. The only reason it ever crossed my mind was because it was brought up that there are others in A marriages who receive support because they have been dishonest about their reality. I would not change the fact that I told the truth.


I am sorry Bob that this was your discovery. My own discovery hurt too. No one should ever have to find that out. Based on the the way you described your finding out I have a pretty clear idea of what you might have walked in on and Bob from the bottom of my heart I am truly sorry that you had to experience that.

You'll find no argument from me here. It's a very honest and valid point.

I know it seems unfathomable to some that I could actually GET this but just because some may think I deserved it... it didn't feel any less pain upon becoming a BS. I do have real feelings too. So for the record I do have some idea of the brokeness of the BS. I personally felt suicidal. If Jesus wouldn't have intervened I don't know what might have happened. I prayed for you tonight at church Bob... I hope that won't offend you. I didn't just pray for FH. I prayed for a lot of people here that have been destroyed by infidelity.

I agree with you here also Bob. I know many believe how stupid could I really be to think that of course this was predictable that this should happen to me. I was THAT stupid. I am not asking you or anyone else to feel sorry for me or that the consequences of my own actions wouldn't seem that this kind of karma so to speak would seem appropriate for someone like me. Whether I deserved this as a consequence for my sin doesn't mean it didn't hurt me.

I also agree with you here as well.

You are right again here too. I didn't get it myself until it became my reality. It doesn't mean that I don't think that WS that become FWS also exerience a deep shame and remorsefullness for what they have done to their spouse. For those WS who turn back to their spouse and realize the depth of the pain that they have caused their BS my guess is they hurt a lot too. Doesn't mean they feel the same type of pain. Nothing about infidelity is pain free.

After experiencing the other side of an A... the BS side I felt a tremendous amount of shame and guilt... remorsefullness. I blame myself for some choices that my H's XW has made over the last decade. I will always be left with the haunting question question that if I hadn't participated in the destruction of her M would she be making some of the reckless choices she is now. Would she have gone on to break up two long term marriages. Do I own the responsibility for that? I honestly don't know.

I lost 20 pounds after my own D-day. I was thin to begin with and was told by coworkers I looked skeletal. My stomach hurt for months afterward. So I get the point you make here from a personal standpoint.

I too lost control of toilet functions and it was humiliating. Bob I am very sorry that this happened to you.

I too lay on the bed and held my own mother as she died and why some might not understand that I do understand what you mean by this Bob I do... I really do.

I know Bob and I ask you to imagine what it was like to feel this and then realize that you yourself were responsible for doing this to another human being. I am not asking you to feel sorry for me... just that you know that I have to live with this for the rest of my life... knowing that I did this to another person.

I understand this too Bob... because I don't know if I could survive this again either.

I admire you for the devotion you showed and your wife is a lucky a woman.

I do see your point here and I am sorry for being insensitive to you and any other BS.

I don't know the answer to this Bob. I don't recommend this road to anyone. I guess the only advice I could give them is that if they think magically their whole life is going to be happily ever after with their OP they are in for a sad mistake. I don't give advice on this board. I don't post to anyone who doesn't know my situation and I certainly don't think that I have ever suggested that this is what WS should do. I don't advise BS either. I don't advise anyone.

No Bob, I wouldn't advise that to anyone... and if my presence here suggests that I am somehow advise or recommend it I humbly apologize. I don't know who "the new pink paige" is and I don't recall her on any thread I posted to but I will look back to see if I can find what you are talking about. I am not disagreeing with you about it... just saying I don't recall that poster.

I understand your posisition Bob and I ask that you allow me a way to figure out some other way.

Okay... I accept that too but as of now I don't know any other contact means for LA. I don't know her email or any other means to get in touch with her. I will look into it.

As for emailing with FH... I think you would be willing to admit that it is not appropriate for me or any other member of this forum to email with members of the opposite sex. MM defined that for me very early on. I don't know another way at this time for me to speak to FH. I will look into that as well in a manner that is respectful of my H and also of FH's wife. I do hope that you can understand my reason for that.

I am thinking about it Bob... and NO I would not ask that of myself or any other rape victim. I would ask that you please stop using the rape analogy because unless you have been a woman who has actually been raped (and by rape I mean being physically forced to have SEX against your will... brutally forced or otherwise) that those of you who want to use an analogy please use another analogy.

Bob, I don't think YOU are a nasty person nor do I discount the many people I am sure you have helped here.

I don't like the way FH has been portrayed here but that doesn't mean that I think the rest of you are all a bunch of nasty people. I probably would have kept that to myself too but I personally found that comment about "mental masturbation" in regard to him speaking about his belief as a Christian very disturbing. I am sure many thought it was fine to speak to him that way but I do NOT. If you take issue with me I accept that but don't take out your offense for me on him. I don't see anywhere where he as a BS has done anything wrong.

My sincerest apology Bob for any harm I have caused you or any other member of this board.

This FH is just more of the same from you. It shows you really do not "get" what anyone is saying, least of all me.

BobPure said...





JustJilly said...


For the record Jilly, Dr. Harley, the owner of this site, uses that very analogy...Bob is spot on there...Many others liken it to the death of a child...Infidelity IS that serious and damaging...

And Jilly, why is it that you feel entitled to seek help here, in front of the victims in the Infidelity section of Marriage Builders, when you can see that it is painful and offensive to many? It's not that I don't wish for you to receive help somewhere, I just strongly feel that this isn't the place...If I'm totally honest, I believe it to be quite selfish of you to continue to post here...*shrugs*

A little more than my .02...

Mrs. W

See Jilly, the above statement just does NOT ring true...That is TALK, and "talk is CHEAP"...If you were truly concerned about any harm that you were causing, you wouldn't wish to post here...You really don't understand no matter how much you "say" you do..."Actions speak louder than words"...

Mrs. W

From “martyr FH” to Saint Pure – You are quite right. Though I am no martyr, again attempting to label me something to render anything I might say as “self-serving and irrelevant,” there is no doubt that I don’t understand what a Betrayed Spouse goes through. Never been one, so there is no way that I could understand what you are saying or what your supporters have been saying. There is no way that I could personally understand all the “worst nightmares” and all the fears that descend upon a BS whose spouse is engaged in infidelity, especially the long term, deeply involved kind.

“My story is nearly identical to so MANY Bs on these boards - all of them hold the affair-marriage of their WS to be the very nadir of their hopes.”

Yes, once again you are right. I cannot imagine, let alone know, what this means, let alone know what it actually feels like. Nevermind that in my wife’s case, she WAS married to her affair partner in every way except a formal ceremony. She had accepted his marriage proposal, wore his wedding and engagement rings, had her own apartment for 5 months prior to my even becoming aware that there was a “problem” in order to satisfy our State’s requirement for granting a divorce , had all the divorce papers drawn up, and chose the OM to be with when the three of us were standing no more than 5 feet away from each other. You’re right, I just don’t “get it.”

“Not nasty people like me, huh, Jilly, who has ALSO helped DOZENS of people survive the abyss after being betrayed, and counselled them to achieve the affair-fighting success I have had most freely over the years ?”

Was this intended to be an example of what a true martyr is, in your mind?




MelodyLane – “Many folks have asked you nicely to take it elsewhere, if you don't, you don't, but please try and show a little compassion for the folks here. It would hurt nothing to take this to a private forum and many would be very appreciative.”

Mel, An excellent suggestion. Would you happen to know of one that you could recommend, where “evildoers” of the “worst kind” can go to seek help in rebuilding their lives, in Christ, after a past that cannot be “undone” but that they are truly repentant of? Obviously a thread anywhere on MB would be insufficient, so I would welcome your suggestions.



MEDC –
MEDC, I understand your point. In just the same way that many walked by the “untouchable” person not willing to be seen by others helping some “untouchable and unclean person” but willing to let someone else do it as long as they kept it in some back alley somewhere, I understand your concept of the Good Samaritan. So I ask you the same thing I asked MelodyLane, do you have any good suggestions other than just “somewhere, anywhere, but not here.” This place, after all, is reserved for only people we deem worthy of our help as the “elders” and “keepers of the faith and protectors of the innocents.”

As for “not answering” questions. Some questions are rhetorical in nature and don’t need an answer. Some answers, when given, are rejected as “insufficient” or “not what I wanted to hear so it’s not an answer,” and some questions are answered with another question to make sure that BOTH biases of each conversant are understood.
“Have you stopped beating your wife?” Some questions are not “simple” yes or no questions, some are meant to make it impossible for ANY answer to be “sufficient” to the one posing the question.

It is interesting, though that MANY of the questions I pose are ignored and not answered too. I wonder if that has anything to do with the Pot/Kettle thing?



Bigkahuna – Neither I nor JL “got” what you were saying back in July and I don’t get it now either. I understand the other people quite well, but you who claim to be a Christian, I don’t understand as you stand gloating over someone else “getting what was coming to them” and telling everyone they are not worth the effort of even attempting to help them in some way, especially when that “someone else” is a brother/sister in Christ. It must be comforting to be so much better than everyone else, or at least better than anyone who you don’t consider “worthy enough” before your God.

Then you hide your prejudice behind some well sounding ideas that you are just “protecting” other innocents from the potential “harm” that a single thread directed specifically to ONE other person might have. And that thread was simply a “how are you doing” follow up thread to someone I have not talked to in months.

What I DO understand is your “version” of Christianity is a “works based” Christianity. You believe that a person CAN lose their salvation, and you then say, against Scripture, that they can “re-earn” their salvation by what they DO. You castigate me, and have done so before, because you don’t like or believe in the Eternal Security doctrine for true believers. You feel free to belittle me for quoting Scripture, accuse me of “Scripture twisting,” and REFUSE to answer the questions I put to you or to discuss what Scripture DOES say.

You attempt to belittle me again with your statement in the quote above. ANY Wayward Spouse who divorces their spouse and marries anyone else commits adultery and is living in an “adulterous” marriage, at least by your definition if not the Scripture’s definition. Any other person that a WS marries is automatically an “Other Person” because they are NOT the original spouse. You want to “parse” things to be ONLY someone who was the “affair partner.” But using your own “reasoning,” the ONLY way that a repentant WS can adequately “prove” their repentance to you would be to divorce their partner in adultery, no matter what or how long they have been married to that person. THEREFORE, only a WS who is still “married” to their original spouse would “qualify” under your definition for care and concern, let alone help, from anyone on MB on the supposition that helping any WS do anything but recover their original marriage would be found “offensive” to all the other Betrayed Spouses on MB and potentially used as “justification” for an active Wayward Spouse to divorce their spouse and pursue their OP.

Your idea of Christian love, to say nothing of forgiveness as Christ has forgiven you, is foreign to me as you “parse” who is worthy of it and who is not. So you are right, in that sense I do not understand you. How DARE Jesus consort with anyone that the “in crowd” deems to be beneath worth? How DARE Jesus possibly offend someone else by attending to the needs of someone who is a “sinner of all sinners?” Why can’t Jesus just go off in some quiet corner and minister to “THAT” sinners’ needs so that we don’t have to be “triggered” in our minds, that we don’t have to be offended by his dealing with someone he KNOWS has been as “gross sinner,” or have anyone see that “even in the worst of cases, their still is hope and forgiveness and restoration in Christ?”

You’re right. I don’t understand you.



Yes they do, Mrs. Wondering. But words can often make the sharpest cuts of all. Words can help heal and words can flay the flesh and the soul.

Is the only way that someone can “make amends” for their adultery to “go away and never talk about it” because someone might be offended? Neither the actions of infidelity nor the words spoken in adultery can be “undone.” They can only be repented of, not erased. They can be forgiven, but as you say, there will still be consequences. “Woman, where are your accusers?” That is what Jesus asked. Why? Because NONE of us is without sin…. “then neither do I condemn you.” But we will condemn here, right? That Jesus would offend the others who found the woman’s adultery to be so offensive that they wanted to kill her in order to remove her from their presence permanently, I guess Jesus was wrong and should not have attempted to help her situation. He probably should have said, "I can't help you because others might find you and what you did to be offensive, or worse, they might interpret my help as being a 'blessing' on their own sinful behavior," and then walked away. But why DID all of the accusers drop their stones and walk away, rather than Jesus doing the walking? What was the ONE question that he asked all of them collectively and in public?

This thread was meant to be a “one on one” talk with JJ just for ME to get an update on her situation. But I don’t get to talk to anyone if the others on the system don’t like it even if I specifically make a thread specifically for that one individual, and don’t even invite anyone else to read, let alone comment. Yep, no doubt about it, I’m such an insensitive martyr. JJ has never emailed me, because we long ago cautioned her against private emailing to another MALE. But maybe that is the only way that she can get some help devoid of the judmentalism that has been displayed here. HELPING someone does NOT equal condoning what was done nor does it imply that I am “insensitive” to others. We try, as best we are able to, to help SPECIFIC people with their specific needs and issues, even if others might not “like it” or “feel comfortable” with helping them.

It IS a public forum and it IS “group therapy,” despite CV’s objection, because anyone and everyone CAN say whatever they want to say regardless of how others on the same system might “feel about it.” That’s how Harley set it up by choice. It is to help people with marital troubles and Harley did not restrict to only those who are married to their original marriage partner. If anyone wants to “parse” things the way CV did and say that none of us are “counselors,” then have at it. But then I suppose none of us should be offering any support either.

As for “not answering” questions. Some questions are rhetorical in nature and don’t need an answer. Some answers, when given, are rejected as “insufficient” or “not what I wanted to hear so it’s not an answer,” and some questions are answered with another question to make sure that BOTH biases of each conversant are understood.
“Have you stopped beating your wife?” Some questions are not “simple” yes or no questions, some are meant to make it impossible for ANY answer to be “sufficient” to the one posing the question.

How ismy very direct and straightforward question rhetorial,or manipulative ? Dr Harley likens betrayal to rape, and I am asking you very directly to tell us if you would counsel a rapist in a safe place for rape victims.

What is rhetorical about that ? Why are you filibustering ? Just kindly answer the question, so that by analogy we can discern your attitude to this issue.


It is interesting, though that MANY of the questions I pose are ignored and not answered too. I wonder if that has anything to do with the Pot/Kettle thing?


Line 'em up in comprehensible sentences that do not ramble on and I will answer them very straightforwardly.

there is no doubt that I don’t understand what a Betrayed Spouse goes through

See that post thing where you read my comment you are refrerring to there FH ? Can yo read what it says right at teh top ?

"JustJilly"

Yes thats right. " Justjilly" Not "FH".

My comments were not directed at you. Despite your fascile sarcasm, I know OF COURSE that you know a bS experience. I wa slaying it out graphically for JustJilly to explain why myself and so many BS are offended by afair marriages being supported and "legitimized" in our midst.

With your inventions of prejudice against second mariages, invention of us driving Jilly away an dnow taking offence at comments CLEARLY WRITTN TO ANOTHER FH, I think you are trying toobfuscate because you know you have no credible answer to the challenge made of you to take your support for this girl elsewhere.

Please answer my question.

BTW did youknow CV is a counsellor intraining? I suspect she knows a bit more about the definition of "group therapy" than you do, or is there a scripture that proves her taught experience wrong too ?

Okay Bob, let me answer your question for you, since it's obviously the most burning issue you have.

Dr Harley likens betrayal to rape, and I am asking you very directly to tell us if you would counsel a rapist in a safe place for rape victims.

Bob, Dr. Harley is not the only one to use that analogy. I have used it many many times over the years too to try to get across to Active Wayward Spouses what adultery "feels like" to a BS, especially when the WS is a female. So I fully understand the analogy and the emotional "message" that it attempts to convey.

So let's go directly to your question about counseling, "I am asking you very directly to tell us if you would counsel a rapist in a safe place for rape victims."

You seem to be asking the "have you stopped beating your wife" sort of question, and you stated as much in your statement earlier that you "connected" to my potential answers as you surmised what they might be. In essence, you asked and answered the questions and passed judgment on the answers before any response was possible.

But since you continue to beat this horse, let me answer it for you anyway.

"It depends" would be my answer.

1. If you are asking if I would counsel an active rapist in a session that included rape victims, the answer would be No, even though that is pretty much what we do when we counsel active Wayward Spouses here on MB.

2. If you are asking would I counsel a former rapist with other rape victims present, the answer would be no, not if it is "too soon" after the rapist became a "former" rapist, understanding that in this context a "former" rapist is still a rapist by appellation of their past behavior just like a "former" Wayward Spouse is still a Wayward Spouse by appellation of their past behavior.

3. If you are asking would I counsel a "long in the past" rapist who has repented of that behavior and given up raping, who was heartily sorry for their past behavior, is now themselves a recent victim of rape, and was in a "safe" but public setting with other former and/or current rape victims who can choose to listen or not listen as THEY choose, yes, I would counsel with that person. Not only do they deserve counseling, others who choose to listen may also learn a lot about what went on in the head of a rapist, what the "real" outcomes of following their "desires" might actually lead to, because that person would also be willing to put themselves on the "firing range" to talk about what their "former life" was like to anyone who might care to ask, even if it's asked with hatred and venom founded in the pain that a raped person might be venting at them, even though they are not the one who raped them. Likewise, they may even get a glimpse of what "forgiven in Christ" means and how it changes lives.

"Just kindly answer the question, so that by analogy we can discern your attitude to this issue."

Does that answer your question satisfactorily for you?




Bob, don't be obtuse. Of course I know you were speaking to JJ. I also know you previously accused me of not knowing or understanding the pain involved with adultery that others might be feeling merely by JJ's presence or by any discussion with her.

I responded because you chose to make it sound as though ONLY a BS could understand what you were trying to say to her and that ONLY your opinion of whether or not a BS should help her, knowing what it FEELS LIKE to be a Betrayed Spouse, has the right to decide if she should be here, let alone decide if they should talk to her.

Nevermind the fact that I have had similar discussion in the past with JJ, she is now a BS also and has the same "personal experience" with it that you do. In other words, she "gets it" now, as you and I and many others have often said to WS's and FWS's that without their becoming a BS themselves, they probably would never understand how deep the hurt of adultery is to a BS.

But I guess my responding to your post TO JJ, since it was addressed to her specifically, isn't at all like my thread here that was addressed specifically to JJ and not to you.

Bob, I don't need a "credible answer" for helping JJ that meets YOUR criteria for what is "credible" and what is not. That is NOT to be arrogant or insensitive to your feelings or to anyone else's feelings. It is a FACT of this system, the way it was designed by Harley. ALL are welcome here so long as they don't violate the posting rules of the system that the owner and administrators have established. We may not LIKE someone posting, their style of posting, what they say, etc., but they are de facto "credible" according to system rules and not by the whims and preferences of the individual members. If you find something to be in violation of the rules, you have a recourse. You can take it to the forum moderators for review. You can even, if it's just "distasteful to you," put them on "Ignore" and not have to be "bothered" by any of the postings.

No, what you prefer is out and out censorship of someone and "guilting" them into not posting because of how you feel and how you surmise others might feel, even if there might be others who would "not mind" the person or not be offended by the mere presence of a Former Wayward Spouse or might even want to "get inside the head of a Former Wayward Spouse who did leave and marry their affair partner" that might shed some insight into their own situation. You choose for them. I will readily concede that some people could have a problem with reading what is said by or to JJ. I would also surmise that some people would not have a problem with it. What is it that we ask of people most often? CHOOSE. Each individual must choose for themselves and should not and cannot choose for them.

So far not one "newbie" has posted on this thread. There is no way to determine if any, or how many, might be offended and how many might be "seeking a peek" inside the head of someone who DID "do the unthinkable." But again, we are not the "watchdogs" of the system, the System Administrators and Moderators are.

That's my "position" and I don't ask you to agree or disagree with it. It's mine. You have yours. We each have our own, and we are all subject to the System Rules. I don't "put a gun" to your head and tell you that you must read anything you personally find offensive. I also don't tell you who is "worthy" of your help. I determine for myself, and myself alone, who *I* will attempt to help, just as you do and as everyone else does.

I'll take that back, I did do that once with a poster named SNL, but that was a number of years ago. If you don't know about SNL, don't ask or you can look him up yourself. Repentant was not in his vocabulary.

Regardless, I am going to try to find some way to help JJ that is not so distracting. I've spent enough time "justifying" why I would dare talk to her here in response to the demands of others.

Does that answer your question satisfactorily for you?

Yes , thanks. Your answer is " yes, I would counsel a rapist in a haven for rape victims".

You, will consider that noble and "Christian", and that any criticism you recive is just the dumb old unsaved world railing aginst a good Christian doing his holy righteous thang, quite enjoying the roundly fabricated feeling of being "attacked" for forcing nasty righteous medicine on them.

I consider it monstrous and inhumane , but at least you have given an honest answer at last.

I also know you previously accused me of not knowing or understanding the pain involved with adultery

I would be very interested to see you back this statement up with evidence FH. It is invented or assumed without evidence like almost all the assertions you make about me and my position regarding this issue. How scriptural is lying to make your point FH ?

I am going to try to find some way to help JJ that is not so distracting.

Hallelujah !!