FH...

Your response to me seems to imply that Jilly and I are one and the same...I disagree and here's why...I would do ANYTHING to be able to turn back time and erase my sin of adultery-to undo the hurt that I caused Mr. W...Jilly, on the other hand, is here seeking help to CONTINUE HER AFFAIR...I wonder how Jilly would feel if her affair marriage wasn't recovering and instead her husband had left, married his second affair partner and was here trying to put that "marriage" back together? I'll bet she wouldn't like that one bit, eh?

To me, Jilly herself not seeing how her seeking help here is offensive is foggy thinking...I'm sure that if I would have left Mr. W and married OM and then needed help with that sham of a marriage I too would share her skewed thinking, as I would have yet to have pulled my head out of my nether regions...I'm so thankful that is NOT the case...

Just want to point out that I am not opposed to Jilly receiving help SOMEWHERE, even here outside of the infidelity section on Marriage Builders works for me...AWAY FROM THE VICTIMS...Of course I can't force that to happen, but I don't have to like it if she remains here on GQII...

Also FH, I wanted to address your comparison of WS' receiving help here with Jilly doing the same.....When a WS comes here seeking help, they are being advised and helped to TURN FROM THEIR SIN, NOT CONTINUE IN IT...Big Difference, IMO...The BS' here want to see a WS become a FWS because that that brings HOPE and HEALING...Jilly's marriage surviving represents the OPPOSITE of that to a BS...

Mrs. W

Haven't you learned by now that trying to reason with a WS is like throwing cotton balls at a crocodile?

Some people are very susceptable to crocodile tears.

Why not just make a big list called "Here are the reasons your presence is inappropriate" and then you can collectively watch as all reasons are summarily dismissed.

It's called entitlement.

So JJ believes she is entitled to seek help from people being actively victimized from the very thing she is asking for help preserving and the clincher...?

She is correct.

She can look anywhere she wants. She can ask parents on the child cancer ward if they plan to sell their house after if she wants to [who was it that said the obits are a great place to look for real estate?]...if she doesn't perceive how gross that is there is nothing you can say to turn the lights on for her.

Does anyone here think FH would be so understanding if it was HIS WW here seeking the same counsel? I don't. And as Mrs. W pointed out, JJ would be equally as offended if her H came here looking for advice on his current A! While I am NEVER surprised at the sense of entitlement of waywards, FH's insensitivity is a bit shocking to me. Watching this man spew his long winded excuses for not handling this matter elsewhere is disappointing.
JJ mentioned that BP should not use the "rape" analogy since he couldn't know the impact of that crime. Well, JJ, you are wrong... from a mouth of a man that suffered sexual assault as a child, I will tell you that the analogy is spot on.... except that this assault comes from one entrusted to take care of you.
It's funny that two people here, FH and JJ, that are so in touch with their Christian beliefs are acting in a most un-Christian fashion. You KNOW that your actions are harmful to others here and yet you both continue along the path you have chosen despiet the pain caused others.

MEDC

You could easily set up an EZboard at www.ezboard.com. They are easy to set up and cost little to nothing. You could invite whomever you choose. If you need some help setting it up, just give me a shout.

Actually medc I'd be inclined to say yes.

It's a complete dj and speculation on my part but I see a similarity between calling sustained nc breach residual attachment rather than "still lying" and acting as though JJ was already at the place he'd like to see her go despite all evidence to the contrary.

And FH, your answer to Bob's question regarding counseling rapists in a safe haven for rape victims makes me question your sanity... literally, your sanity. The ONLY way... YES FH...ONLY WAY... that it would be ever acceptable for YOU to decide what a rape victim could learn fromt he mind of a rapist would be to get their permission and assurance that they want that input! Otherwise YOU are violating the sanctity of their safe haven.
You have become so enamoured with your own words that you have lost all sensitivity to others. YOU put on this robe of Christianity and yet you fail to act in a way that is sensitive to the needs of others. And then when you get called to the carpet on it... you sit in the corner and sulk... threatening to once again take your ball and go home.
Your stance on this entire issue should be tempered by the pain that you are causing others. Instead, it appears as though you use that pain as fuel to go even further. I have tried very hard to understand you in the past and feel that I have done a good job taking your views into consideration. In this case, FH, you are dead wrong and your arguments are hollow. Frankly, I feel that you owe Bob P and others here an apology for the way you have conducted yourself on this topic.

MEDC

FH wrote:

"It IS a public forum and it IS “group therapy,” despite CV’s objection, because anyone and everyone CAN say whatever they want to say regardless of how others on the same system might “feel about it.” That’s how Harley set it up by choice. It is to help people with marital troubles and Harley did not restrict to only those who are married to their original marriage partner. If anyone wants to “parse” things the way CV did and say that none of us are “counselors,” then have at it. But then I suppose none of us should be offering any support either."

First off, Bob I was thinking of updating you on my counselor status but couldn't remember if you knew about the whole counselor exam fiasco. The state board got rid of that awful exam after 2 yrs, I just took the new exam about 2 months ago and passed, so I finally can call myself a counselor. An unemployed counselor I might add!

FH, not to nit pick here, but this is not group therapy. I have studied about groups and was a co-leader of an anger management group for months. A therapy group is led by one, usually 2, leaders who are trained mental health professionals. They are trained in understanding the dynamics of a group and understand how to keep the group on track. They deal with individual issues in the group, and also how to keep everyone safe within the group. MB is most definitely a self-help group based on the MB principles. Dr. Harley is not hear running any of these boards.

JJ, I'm sure my H has cringed when I have used the rape analogy with him. The reality is he violated me in the worst way, and he allowed another person to violate me also. It is a fact that can't be undone. The bizarre aspect of trying to recover from this is that we BSs are trying to heal with the person who did "rape" us.

I don't doubt that you have felt the pain of being a BS. I even have mixed feelings regarding your sitch just because you have an innocent child who is part of the equation. It probably is in the best interest of your child for your M to survive. However, as a BS, I have to be honest here. I look at the Julia Roberts and Angelina Jolie's of the world and hope their affair Rs end. Every time an affair R appears to make it it is one more influence in the world for someone else to have an A when they are at that choice point in their life. I firmly believe that.

Personally I would like to hear from people on this board, WS and BS alike, newly into this mess. I would like to hear how having a person here whose M sprung from an A is effecting them. I can read this stuff and not feel the pain now because 3 yrs have gone by. My days of lying on the floor sobbing are behind me. However, what is it like for those here, right now, in that state?

As apparently the only one around who's never either had his heart in the blender OR his finger on the button marked "Puree", may I call on all to put down the Scriptural hand grenades and ethical rocket launchers and listen to pragmatic suggestions?

MelodyLane's is good.

Or, how about a thread off in a dusty, unused corner of the board like "Other Topics"? It doesn't seem like anyone ever even looks there. That way:

Despairing or fogged newbies don't get tortured or misled.
The vast majority of posters don't get scandalized.
Justjilly can seek help without being uncharitable.
LA and FH can offer counsel without the burden of going to another site.

To me it seems to satisfy the more serious concerns of all parties.

Now everyone shoot at the idiot in the middle waving the white flag! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Sancte Sebastiane, ora pro nobis!

Personally I think it would be more charitable and "Christ-like" of FH, LA and JJ to take Mel's suggestion to do their counselling off-site. In what I propose, the risk to newbies is still present and the moral scandal is just out of sight, not removed. On the other hand, mine is more practical because it requires the least sacrifice from those parties whose walk with the Lord has not yet led them to complete victory over the sense of entitlement.

Ok, you guys...as many of you know I am no longer posting right now because of my very dark Plan B. But this DISGUSTING thread has brought me out of my cave.

I am a "newly betrayed" (for the second time, after a 10-month long false recovery) wife. I busted my butt for 10-months trying to recover my M, only to find out that my H was not a "former" WH, as I had believed, but an active WH.

So, FH, LA, notonlywords, and anyone else who supports her...I actually feel betrayed by you all right here, on this thread.

Let's close our eyes for a minute here and project that my M fails, that my H and OW get married. You all will see firsthand the additional pain (as if the pain of the past year has not been bad enough), that that union would bring me, my children, and countless others who also have been affected by their affair.

Then fast-forward a year or two down the road...OW comes here asking for support becaues MFsFWH is cheating on her. You mean to tell me that you would support her?!?!?!

Another whammy of a betrayal to the BS.

If anyone believes that JJ's marriage is blessed by God, you are in some sort of serious fog yourself. God would bless a M based on pain, lies, deceit and broken covenants between himself and the original marriages that this affair broke up? I don't think so.

This is not even a "marriage". This is continued adultery, and it's sick, sick, sick.

Not only should this be taken offline, this whole thread should be deleted. BS's do not need more pain. The pain we are bearing from our spouse's betrayal is more than we can bare. We don't need to be betrayed by others here, who are supposedly "helping" us to overcome our pain.

~MF

First of FH,
I think your intent here was admiarble. You are trying to convince a sinner that the sacrifise of Christ washes all sin clean. Well, that's true inn so many ways, but, yes there are conditions on what Christ will forgive and what He will not.
Do you know what christ has declared is the one sin that is unforgivable? Such a condition does exist as i am well assured that you are aware of this.

JJ, you are at a crossroads. Your WH has done to to you, exactly what you have done to your former H. The old addage; If he cheats with you,,,, he will cheat on you.... has once again proven to be true. So what will you do to unleash yourself from this continued sin????????

Personally, I think this is a perfect oppotunity for you to D your WH and get right with God. When He said to Mary Magdelin "go and sin no more" she heeded His words. Sorry. but you have not heeded His words. What will you do about it? Horrible Q isn't it?

Only you can decide. I do wish you the peace of the Lord. But you must make a tremendous decision, one that will affect the rest of your life. I would not want to be in your position.

All Blessings,
Jerry

MF I am so, so sorry that you have been hurt by this. I feared this would happen.

I have no words of comfort for you. I am almost three years past d-day in a recovering marriage and even I am hurt and offended by affair-marriages being supported on this site. I can imagine how hurt you are.

I can only ask that you stay close to the MG plan which is the best plan of AVOIDING an outcome involving an affair marriage.

Please read up on the F WS on this site whose journey from a place as deluded as your H's was long and hard yet they grasped RIGHT and invested hard in their marriages. I would say that NotOnlyWords is one of those wonderful FWS whose conversion and grit inspired me to go an extra mile in my own affair fight. Note She was the first to remove herself from this debate when she realised morefolks might be hurt than helped..

All blessings

Bob, now you are accusing me of lying. That is beneath you. Since you choose to make it a request, no a demand, then here are examples of your accusations directed specifically at me. No lie. No twisting. No slander or libel. Just what you wrote. Just so you don't accuse me of lying again and “making it all up.”



1. I am ALL for people working to help sure up this ill-starred kind of "marriage" if they feel compelled so to do but IMO it is an act of hurtful arrogance to do so in the face of a marriagebuilding community to whom an affair marriage is the worst of all possible outcomes of the pain they currently endure.

2. Or would you force a hurtful lesson in extreme situation forgiveness on the trembling BS and new FWS at this time ?

3. Of COURSE people should help them, but not in the middle of the safe place their victims go for help. How can that POSSIBLY be compassionate or right ?

4. If your faith impels you to entirely discredit how so many hurting people are affected by your cruel choice to cousel this woman in their faces, then I want no part of that Faith.

5. Help her. Please. But do not force a lesson in your brand of holiness on bytstanders who are hurting by doing it here, in hurt BS central.

6. But NONE of us is “responsible” for the “feelings” of someone else.

Correct. So you think that permits us to do anthing, choose however avoidably hurtful, so long it does not directly contravene scripture ?

7.This answer tells me that YES you WOULD counsel a rapist in the face of rape victims. Has your faith stolen all your humanity FH ?

8. Not my point in this case : Justjillys example being flaunted as legitimate here in this hurting place is what is offensive here IMO.
In summary you will continue to enable justjilly here in the certain knowledge that you are hurting people less fortunate in recovery than you and no humanitarian compassion will make you change your ways.



Now I’m going to remind you for one more time. This thread was intended solely for me to get an update from Jilly, who IS a registered and approved for posting, MEMBER of MarriageBuilders, whether you like it or not.

Since NO ONE but “seasoned veterans” has had anything to say on this thread, I DON”T KNOW, anymore than you or any of the other protesters KNOWS, that anyone outside of your circle even KNOWS this thread exists, much less is offended by JustJilly or my helping her to what extent I can. You all claim to be mindreaders because you extrapolate your own feelings to everyone else. Where does this mindreading ability of what offends and what doesn’t offend end and what posting is “not allowed” because of your universal knowledge of everyone else and their thoughts and/or feelings?

This thread was NEVER an “open invitation” for you or any of the other supporters of your or BigKahuna’s attacks. I never even requested, when you or anyone else, began posting attacks against the mere presence of JJ or my “audacity” and “lack of compassion” in trying to provide a little help to her to “get out of this thread because I found your posts to be offensive.” That very thing happened to me in January DESPITE there having BEEN an open invitation to post. But as soon as I posted an “opposing” opinion, I was summarily attacked and told to get off the thread. Tempting as it was to react similarly here, I didn’t even do that. Rather, I tried to take substantial time to respond to each of you, knowing full well (we've been down this path last July), that nothing I said was going to "suffice" for anyone.

Minds were made up and they were going to quash this thread come he11 or high water.

I would dare to say that if any “newbie” you are allegedly seeking to “protect” read anything on this thread, they probably wouldn’t know much of anything about JustJilly or me, UNLESS you or others trumpeted your “outrage” to them. In point of fact, in all likelihood, after a very few posts to get updated, this thread would have ended and quickly faded in to the oblivion of the plethora of postings.

But, even when I responded, as in my last post where I responded to the hypothetical question you posed in an attempt to pillory me whichever way I would answer, you did exactly that, you judged the answer inadequate and never bothered to look at the qualifiers of people CHOOSING (NOT being "forced to read") what they listen to or read, and then went right into accusing me of lying.

BigKahuna launched similar slanderous attacks and when I responded to him and offered to go directly to the Scripture to see what the Scripture has to say about Eternal Security or “You can lose your salvation” as BK contends…..not one word in response. Just attack, launch slanderous accusations, and then disappear.

This is disgusting Bob. And you should know it, but you apparently don’t or you wouldn’t be doing the same sort of thing that BK was doing.

To those who have posted yet again about the “status” of JustJilly’s marriage, I apologize to you for any hurt feelings.


Shinethrough, since you asked:
I will give you the courtesy of a response. First, I am sorry if you were hurt by this discussion. Were we to continue, I would be curious to know if you would have known anything about JustJilly if it were not for the postings of others opposed to her on this thread making you aware of her past so that you could be offended or if you were already aware of her past? Bob Pure cites you as his "proof" that his fears were justified, and I would have been curious too, to see the extent to which Bob's fears were actual through your own knowledge or as a response to his making you aware of her past so that you "might" then be offended.

Anyway, on to your questions. If you desire further follow up on them, do so on another thread as I will not be continuing this thread.

There is only one “condition” on what Christ will forgive all sins, except for one sin, and that condition is to accept Jesus Christ as one’s personal Lord and Savior. If you want to add to the “condition list” you are referring to, you can add “repentance of sin” in the heart of the person you can, but that is inherent in a true acceptance Christ. The forgiven thief on the cross next to Jesus is sufficient proof of that if you might also be looking for a Biblical reference. NO WORKS. Period. “It is by GRACE you have been saved, not of works, lest ANY man should boast.”

The ONLY “unforgiveable” is Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.



To everyone:
But let’s make it really simple. This thread is closed. I am thinking about where a neutral place might be for talking with JJ. Melody, thanks for your suggestion, I will look into it, but I really don't want to be a Forum Admin. or Moderator nor do I wish to pay for a site just to keep everyone here happy.

All: Don’t bother posting anything more unless you have a need to attack more or vent your feelings of anger that you can't control.

Well I've just lost my very long post, so I'll just say, FH, you have complettly misunderstood what I was trying to say to you.

I'm hoping for further dialogue. But that is completely up to you.

And your answer to my Q was completely correct!!

All Blessings,
Jerry

FH your twisting of the facts here is beyond anything I have seen outside of negotiation class truly.

You said Bob, now you are accusing me of lying. That is beneath you. Since you choose to make it a request, no a demand, then here are examples of your accusations directed specifically at me. No lie. No twisting. No slander or libel. Just what you wrote. Just so you don't accuse me of lying again and “making it all up.”

There is absolutely no evidence that I made the acusation aor assertions that you claim I did. So you either got it very wrong or you made it up to make me look bad and make my argument sound more unreasonable than it is. The making up part is LYING FH.

These statements you lay out as supposed evidence of these false assertions you have made about me are ABSOLUTELY unrelated as ANY onlooker will see !


1 "I also know you previously accused me of not knowing or understanding the pain involved with adultery"

Show me where I did this. You cannot find any evidence because I did not say this or infer it.

The quotes you provide here all show how I have told you that I think your actions are hurtful to BS. Not even one of them HINTS at my accusing you of "not knowing or understanding the pain involved with adultery". What bizarre lexicon are you using that allows to draw such specious conclusions from entirely unrelated posts ?

As you seemingly love long, dull , filibustering posts I will respond to each one :


1. I am ALL for people working to help sure up this ill-starred kind of "marriage" if they feel compelled so to do but IMO it is an act of hurtful arrogance to do so in the face of a marriagebuilding community to whom an affair marriage is the worst of all possible outcomes of the pain they currently endure.

My opinion offered which I stand by. Please explain how you interpret that as my accusing you of "not knowing or undertnding the pain involved with adultery" ?

2. Or would you force a hurtful lesson in extreme situation forgiveness on the trembling BS and new FWS at this time ?

A question that you never answered, and again one that IN NO WAY accuses you of "not knowing or understanding the pain involved with adultery"

3. Of COURSE people should help them, but not in the middle of the safe place their victims go for help. How can that POSSIBLY be compassionate or right ?

ANOTHER question that you never answered, and again one that IN NO WAY accuses you of "not knowing or understanding the pain involved with adultery"

4. If your faith impels you to entirely discredit how so many hurting people are affected by your cruel choice to cousel this woman in their faces, then I want no part of that Faith.

A statement of my opinion that IN NO WAY acuses you of "not knowing or understanding the pain involved with adultery"

5. Help her. Please. But do not force a lesson in your brand of holiness on bytstanders who are hurting by doing it here, in hurt BS central.

An exhortation for you to HELP Jilly, that IN NO WAY acuses you of "not knowing or understanding the pain involved with adultery"

6. But NONE of us is “responsible” for the “feelings” of someone else.

Correct. So you think that permits us to do anthing, choose however avoidably hurtful, so long it does not directly contravene scripture ?
A question you did not answer that IN NO WAY acuses you of "not knowing or understanding the pain involved with adultery"

7.This answer tells me that YES you WOULD counsel a rapist in the face of rape victims. Has your faith stolen all your humanity FH ?

This was my summarising your rambling paragraph where you said " yes I would counsel a rapist in front of rape victims". Once again it carries zero inference that you "not knowing or understanding the pain involved with adultery".I added a question that again does not infer in any way that "you do not know or understad the pain associated with adultery"

8. Not my point in this case : Justjillys example being flaunted as legitimate here in this hurting place is what is offensive here IMO. In summary you will continue to enable justjilly here in the certain knowledge that you are hurting people less fortunate in recovery than you and no humanitarian compassion will make you change your ways.

A statement of my opinion that IN NO WAY acuses you of "not knowing or understanding the pain involved with adultery"

See FH ? You made up your claim that I accused you of "not knowing or understanding the pain involved with adultery". There is not a shred of evidence for it because it is a constructed claim that you make of me.

Just like your inference that I would not support as legitimate any marriage that was not the first. I asked you to find me evidence of this. You found none because there is none. It is invented.

How you should have worded your indignant statement is: " Bob, you have claimed many time sthat yo think I am knowingly hurting many others on MB in support of the one,and not let me weasel word my way out of it and it makes me feel uncofortable". To THAT claim, sir, I am guilty as charged.

I believe that , as MFs comment avers, your counselling this affair-marriage in a sanctuary for hurting people wrestling infidelity is needlessly hurtful , and you should help her, if you must, in a more discreet and humane manner quietly somewhere.

That is all. All your bluster and indignation and paranoid fabrication of persecution adds nor subtracts NOTHING from this.
Take this elsewhere as you said you would, and enjoy the prospect of never having to speak to me ever again.

ForeverHers - I have told you before I am not interested in religous debates on MB.

You have taken my position on OSAS and affair marriages and built up a whole doctrine of things I have never said. You really have just continued putting words into my mouth I have never spoken and assumed things I have never said. Frankly you don't have a clue about what I believe although in most areas we would be in agreement.

Your problem FH is that you believe that you alone are capable of determining what the scriptures mean and that everyone else is wrong.

I am open to persuasion about the matters I have mentioned above. I could be wrong. But right or wrong about them, the fact remains that affair marriages are abhorent to BS's and FWS's on this board. YOu hide behind a claim this thread was for one person but surely you are not tha naive to not know that potentially thousands of people read threads here on MB - many anonymously.

Anyway as I say, I have no intention of debating you here on MB - MB is for marriage building not religious debates.

FH.
I am totally confused by your reply. I have talked to Bob in the past and have always respected his counsel, but where did you somehow construe that YOUR debate somehow involved me?


How on earth,did I get intwined on this debate? I think you are so sensitive on this issue that you have somehow lumped me in as the enemy here.

HI Bob <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />I'm quite sure you and I have not psted to each other in quite some time, but somhow, someway, I became your example?? I know that couldn't have possibly happened, but there you have it???

FH, I remain dumbfounded by your respose. My post to you was in no way an attack against you. However, I see you in a defensive posture right now, so I guess everyone is the enemy. Sad though.
I do wish you the peace of the Lord,

All Blessings,
Jerry

I understood that. I also understood you prefer to attack Eternal Security and me as if you have the "only truth" on the matter, as you like to accuse me of doing.

You sent me an email a few months ago stating the same position and stating the same thing, that you had no intention or desire to discuss it. That WAS an "off MB" opportunity for discussion, which you raised in sending me an email, but just like here you claim to be open to discussion but simultaneously refuse to engage in discussion.

The only question I would have, and you don't have to answer it, is why do you trash a position, such as the Doctrine of Eternal Security but refuse to discuss it?

Wouldn't you agree that only one of the two "positions" can be true? Either a truly born again believer cannot lose their salvation after they have been sealed by the Holy Spirit OR anyone CAN lose their salvation. Since the Scripture is the definitive source on the matter, wouldn't it also seem at least "logical" to examine what the Scripture does have to say about the subject?

I'm not discussing anything to do with the controversy over whether or not anyone has the right to talk to JustJilly here or anywhere. I have already said that discussion here is closed, acceding to the wishes of all of you.

Shinethrough - you are correct, I misspoke while hurrying before I had to leave. I apologize for not being more careful and for any offense it caused you. It was MarriedForever Bob referred to you not you. I offer MF the same apology I sent to you.

For your peace of mind, nothing you said appeared to be an attack on me, though I was curious about the intent of your question.

God bless.

Just to be totally clear FH, my email to you was in response to an email YOU sent me. Not the other way around.

I am not now nor have I ever "trashed" your position except to say I do not agree with you.

It is not incumbent on me to discuss anything with you on any forum or email. I have better things to do with my time.

You are correct that only one position can be true. But at the end of the day, when we stand before God, It really will be immaterial which position is right or wrong won't it because we will all be judged on the basis of our acceptance or rejection of Christ, not what doctrinal matters we disagreed about.

I do have an understanding of what I believe the scriptures have to say on this matter and I do regard the scriptures as the final authority.