Yesterday was so helpful, I felt like I had resolved some issues in myself....all was well. Then last evening i discovered my DH has been viewing pornography online.
Yeah.
This is really nothing new for him, he has been viewing it in various forms off and on our entire marriage. He never tried to hide it from me, and wanted me to watch with him at times. I was never comfortable with it, and a few times over the last 23 years I had a blow-up about it...I remember trashing a bunch of videos and telling him how his viewing makes me feel. I probably don't need to get into how I FEEL.
I probably added to the problem since I don't want SF as much as he does. But, the past year my libido has really dropped due to menopause. He had been very good about not "pushing" me for SF, still I felt bad about not wanting it more often. Now I know how he has been able to manage.
It bothers me. I even approached the subject of my low libido a few weeks ago, told him it bothered me and it never got any further than that. I thought he would be happy to try to help me through it.
Apparently not.
Now what really bothers me is, after reading here, learning first-hand about infidelity, etc., how can he not KNOW that this is a form of adultery? What really scares me is that if I confront him, he will use my low libido, my affair four years ago, as his justification.

Mortarman, I remember you said (kind of in passing) that your wife has a low libido and it sounded to me like you have worked this situation out somehow.

HOW? I feel really awful, like somehow it's my fault, so I'm afraid to approach him about it.

Help!

NOW

My wife doesnt have a low libido...it is actually very high for a woman. Her issue right now is her back injury (car accident) that leaves her many times hurting or tired. So, it affects us greatly.

My wife will tell you that one of the ingredients of our fall was pornography. I really had no idea at the time. She was busy having babies, and many times tired so would push SF off for a few days. So, I thought it was no problem to have a look and just let her have some peace. After all, I told myself, it wasnt like I had a live woman there!

Well, I know now what that did to my wife. And in many ways, we are still recovering from that (as well as her affair, etc).

I am not sure how you will do it...but you must sit down with him and let him know exactly how you feel about this and what it is doing to you. Put the burden on him to change things.

Tell him you dont want things to get bad, you dont want to be resentful of him. So, you hope that the two of you can find a solution together (POJA).

Tell him that even though your libido is kinda low right now...you are still willing to be there for him (most women I have talked to that have a low libido, still enjoy the SF to varying extents, even though they werent up for it). It's the same idea as your husband having a headache and you giving him some tylenol and rubbing his temples. You do this for him, even though you may not get too much out of it.

As I have learned on MB and thru the Harley's...YOU are responsible for meeting your husband's ENs. If you dont, even if justified (sickness, etc), there is still a degradation in love there because the needs are not being met.

Thus, you must find a way that he can get what he needs from you while you go thru all of this (menopause).

So, dont just go in there and say "I dont like you watching porno." And then dont speak about the rest of the story (his lack of SF needs being met). Instead, lay it all out on the table and have both of you come up with a solution.

I guess part of the problem is, I never felt like I adequately met his needs in the first place because he felt the "need" for porn. Like I said, this has been ongoing, even when I thought I WAS enough and was willing/able.

If meeting his needs means I have to act like the girls on those videos, I will never be able to meet them.

If meeting his needs means I have to be sexually subordinate and submissive and take abuse, then I can't do it.

What I'm thinking is, he has needs that I cannot fill. And they are being fueled by the videos.

My meeting his EN of SF, in other words, will not be enough.

ANother thing...

he can tell I don't get much out of it. He doesn't like that.

you are objecting to things because of "what if?"
you are making judgements about him, based primarily on your own thoughts, rather than his, and then holding your own judgements of him, as marks against him.

How about asking HIM what he needs?

I'm guessing that the most important thing for him, is that
you are enthusiastic about having sex with him.

this is not the same thing as "I'm really turned on right now". (That helps, but it's not really the main thing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

it can be more along the lines of, "i love you, and it makes me happy to make you feel good".

If you really love someone... if you know something will make that person REALLY HAPPY... that usually tends to make the giver very happy to give it.

Men can tend to directly correlate "enthusiasm about sex", to "how much you love them".

Which, if you can think of it in the way I just wrote about... actually makes sense, from one point of view.

of course he isnt happy you're not getting much out of it.
He loves you. he wants to make YOU feel good. if he's not making you feel good, then he feels worthless to you.

if what he's doing isnt making you feel good... the best answer is not to "fake it". in the long term, that makes "withdrawals" from your feelings for him for the extra effort. that will eventually make things even worse between you.

Better to show him how to make you feel good. There's all kinds of ways to "feel good", arent there?

Techie, maybe you're right...I am just "guessing" what he may be wanting or thinking. Thanks for pointing that out.
Yes, I need to ask him.

And I do get what you're saying, how men tend to correlate enthusiasm for sex with love.

Which is why i don't get where the porn comes in to it.

NOW,

Originally, the porn was just a diversion for me. Something to pass the time, when my wife was not home or not around. If she was there, then I was with her. Once she started having issues of being tired, etc, then it became more of a "I'll just look at this and not harass her." And as we can all see, the trip down the slippery slope has begun.

I think Techie is right in the fact that you are ASSUMING a lot about your husband, which is why I said that communication is the most important thing here! Remember the little story on my thread about how the husband was just upset about his golf game, but his wife had all of these ideas in her head about him leaving, the marriage being over, etc? When all she had to do, and he had to do...is talk. POJA. Negotiate the way the Harleys talk about, where both can say anything without judgment. And then both can come up with solutions together.

It appears by many of your posts that you assume a lot in your marriage, and that communication may be lacking between you two.

I really dont think he wants you to do what the girls in the videos are doing (or maybe he does to some extent). Remember, porno is just an escape. Most men would rather have a live woman doing "regular" stuff...then watch "gymnastics" on tape!

But that doesnt mean he cant ask you for some new tricks, right? Sure, some you may not be comfortable with. And some you may if given time and you two working on it together. But, he has to be able to ask you without you curling up your nose and saying "that's sick." And you have to be able to say "no, I dont think I can really do that" without him feeling rejected.

The way you do that is POJA it. If he asks "hey honey, I want to introduce some cool whip tonight." And you are not into being a piece of pumpkin pie...then what usually happens is that the wife will say "no way." And then that is the end of it. At least it is for HER!! But for him...he has been rejected...and no alternative has been even discussed.

Instead, when he starts buying all of the Cool Whip at the local Kroger...you stop him and say "honey, I dont think I am really gonna like that. Now, maybe you can just buy one...and we can try it. And if it doesnt work out, then we can not do it again and maybe do something else." Or you could say "honey, there is just no way I can do that. It really isnt my thing! But, I remember you asking me about us trying out a little fun on the pool table downstairs. And I have thought about it and think that I might like that."

See?? No rejection there. Just honest talk, and the two of you trying to find solutions. I am willing to bet that if you did that...as well as put it out that the porno really is hurting you...that the porno would go.

porn is appealing to men, first of all, simply for the biological "visual stimulation" aspect... but also because it gives him a pretend woman that looks INTERESTED in sex. porn generally tends to be pictures of women with a "twinkle in their eyes and legs spread wide", so to speak.

internally, i think that gets read as,
"Hi, I'm interested in YOU, i want to have sex with YOU".
That's a major component of the feel-good feeling of porn.
There isnt too much of it that is about just "naked, but uninterested women". The majority is what i described.


Now, a picture cannot compare in emotional welcome, to a real woman. But if that's the only place a man can find welcome in that area... he's going to be emotionally drawn to it. I dont think most men actually THINK about it in this way. but I believe that is what actually draws (most of) us to it at some level.

A man can get drawn over time, to using more and more extreme porn.
but dont let that freak you out for what he is looking at "right now".
The good news is, he can also be lead back to a "healthy" sexual relationship, with a real-life woman. It takes time. and patience. and love.

PS: great post by Mortarman at the same time. 100% agree.

Right, much like how on d-day when he told me how much my affair was hurting him, then and only then, I ended it.
Because , obviously, I had no clue that it would. (sarcasm)

I'm sorry but it sounds like you are justifying the porn for him.

Does anyone here even think porn is a form of adultery besides me?

His lack of meeting MY EN's did not justify my affair for one second.

But in this case, it's ok. I see.

Are you interested in getting a consensus on "who is WRONG here?!!!"

or are you interested in making the problem go away?

you make it sound like you're just interested in backup for telling him that he is wrong.

PS: even if you manage to get a petition, signed by everyone who reads here, saying "[husband], what you are doing is evil, wrong, and adulterous"... it wont make the problem go away.

NOW,

May I offer you a few things to consider and then encourage you to talk at depth with your H?

Thank you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

First, for many men porn, is about fantasy and often the person YOU see in the porn is NOT the person your H might see. He might be seeing you. I doubt seriously if you have to "compete" with the porn. If he is really really addicted you might.

One of the fantasies is that the women in the porn WANTS the man. So let's make an assumption that this is at least part of what attracts him.

WHy would I guess this? Well studies show that is part of the allure of porn is the fantasy that the man is desired.

Let's take your situation. You have had an affair, suggesting that you did not desire your H. Your libido is low, lower than normal because of menopause, and finally you don't enjoy your H when you two are intimate, and he knows it.

The biggest turn on for most of us guys is an enthusiastic mate. And guess which fantasy porn meets? Enthusiasm, right?

Finally I must ask this not because I condone the use of porn, but I am not fanatically against either. But, what is he to do, IF you have no interest, and when you are intimate you don't like it? Now if he did not love you, this would not be a problem, but because he does it is huge.

He does not want to hurt you, or make you do something you don't want to do, yet he is a sexually driven creature as are most of us. I can tell you that studies show that men think about sex roughly every 10 seconds. I have always thought that is why most men are good at compartmentalizing things or they would never get anything done. I cannot vouch for every 10 seconds, but to put a personal face on this it is much more often than women think, and I am in my 60's.

Your problem is not the porn per se'. It is that your H has a physical need, and also an emotional need for physical intimacy. You don't. You don't suffer if there is no intimacy, he does. You don't feel less connected to your mate, he does. You do feel threatened by the porn, he probably does not recognize the depth to which you are bothered and threatened.

My suggestion given all that I have said is that you don't make the porn the central issue, becuase it is likely a manifestation of his needs not being met. You two do need to address the other issues, and as you do you should make it clear how you feel about the porn. Men do get something out of porn and physical relief is really minor, it is the fantasy of being wanted.

Look at this from both sides, and then discuss this with him, calmly, carefully, and with the idea of reaching some resolution that makes you both happier than you are right now.

I hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

Apparently, then, I have never acted enthusiastically where sex is concerned, because remember, this has been something he has done since we got married.

And I'm telling you that is a bunch of crap.



Oh yes he does.

Well that answers my question at least.

NOW* - do you really want an answer or just someone to agree with you? I can "hear" your sarcasm loudly in your post responses.

I did not say that! It isnt okay...and it is a type of adultery. You are correct. The problem is that first, much of society has put in young guys heads that porno isnt like actually being with a woman. So it cant be cheating. All of society agrees actually sleeping with someone else is cheating. So, the first issue is that he needs to understand where he is at!!

The second issue is that what I am talking about with you is what YOU need to do. He isnt here right now. In this case, you are sort of the BS to the OP which is porn. So, what do we do in that situation? Well, we Plan A, right??? We meet needs...we expose. We get honest. We make changes in ourselves that need to be made.

Same goes here, NOW. You are right...it is the same. And if your husband was here, we would kick his butt just like we do every wayward. But it is you that we are talking to and you want to know how to deal with this.

Plan A and radical honesty. Not condoning the porn...just like we dont condone affairs. But getting you to understand what it is that you can and need to do.

Look, I believe pornography is Wrong with a capital "W".
BUT I am not ANGRY at my DH for this. I'm disappointed and confused.

I am not looking to get back-up so I can go after him with a loaded gun. I do NOT want to point an accusing finger at him. I have no right to do that.

I am just completely incredulous that his pornography-viewing can be somehow tied to my failure to meet his EN's, especially when a wayward here is told they cannot blame their spouse for their affair, or try to justify it by saying "well my EN's were not being met".

If I learned NOTHING else, I know darn well I was not justified in the least.


I asked if it was somehow my fault that he turned to porn because I wasn't meeting his EN for SF as much as he would like.
Yes, I was looking for verification that it was NOT my fault, that porn is wrong.

Are you telling me otherwise?

Ummm--I am not a Christian man, so I hope my response here is not inappropriate, but I am a Christian lady who is also going through menopause...whose husband is also going through some changes due to aging.

May I make a suggestion?

For the sake of modesty I will share as much as I can but as you might guess, some things are just between myself and my DH. He is nearing 50yo--I am 45yo. We both enjoy sex and seem to be blessed with similar drives (meaning one of us doesn't want it "more" and the other "less"--it's pretty similar). However, this year, on the occasion, he would go for a stretch and not be too interested (or at least not express it or make a move that I could tell). This really hurt me because it felt like he did not find ME interesting.

After feeling unlovely for a while, I talked to him about it. How in the WORLD does one start a conversation like this? Well, first, I made sure it was at a time when the kids most likely would not interrupt. Second, I just started with "I have something that I need to tell you about and I'm not really sure if you're going to like it or not"...and then I continued with how *I* was feeling and what it seemed like *to me*. As much as possible, I made it about my issue and how I was struggling with it. I also made it clear that *I* was still interested and attracted to him and still loved him dearly even if he was changing a bit.

Well, in a discussion where it was safe for him to do so, my DH shared with me that indeed things were changing and he wasn't sure what was going on. Some things that used to "just come naturally" now required more...um...motivation. Some things that used to behave this way now required more in order to still do that. It wasn't that he wasn't interested...it was more like he wasn't sure if anything would happen and he didn't want to be embarrassed, etc.

Now, nothing personal, but I get that. It's not a rejection of me--it's more like protecting his own ego a little and we're moving into a phase of our life that is no longer 20yo studs and hot monkey sex. So we discussed what our goals with sex were: are we always aiming for the big O? does he always have to climax? do I? why are we doing this? what does it mean? All kinds of stuff like that. And how do we accept the fact that we are in fact aging and there is a limit to what we can do physically that is also not painful?

We discovered that the goal is often just to know that the other person finds us desirable. Sometimes he like to just turn on the lights and LOOK (it's a guy thing I think). Sometimes it's just to be touched. Sometimes we go for the fast thing--sometimes slower and more mellow and cuddly. The point being that WE adjusted to where we are physically and what we expected as an outcome. We wanted the intimacy and closeness and sometimes that can be expressed in ways other than 20yo Victoria's Secret sex.

Sooooo...like I said, I realize I'm not a man nor are we involved in porn, but maybe you need to have a discussion like that with your DH. Tell him what you're afraid of as you hit menopause. It hit me like a ton of bricks that I can no longer have his children, and I felt like a dried-up old prune. I was afraid it would hurt. He was afraid rubbing the lamp wouldn't produce a genie. He was afraid he would let me down. Have THAT kind of talk with your DH and see if you can't come up with creative ideas to still reach the goal of closeness and intimacy in a way that is still exciting to you both.

Your true and faithful friend,


CJ

Thanks FaithfulWifeCJ,

It's fine that you added to the thread, I almost changed it to say women welcome too, but, well, I've been distracted.

I think you have good ideas there. I did try to approach the subject about a month ago. I told him that it bothered me how little I want SF, because I know it's important to him.
So he responds with a link to a website for some sort of "toy" that would allow him to fulfill on his own.

How do you suppose that made me feel?

I told him it disturbed me a little.
Then we never talked.
He's too busy.
And no, that's not an understatement. He literally is not available much of the time.

I said on another thread not too long ago that it seems we have slipped back inot our old ways, before my affair.

You would think that would bother him, that he would want to talk about it, but he seems fine with the way things are.

How depressing is that?

Sorry NOW,

Sorry that i have nothing to offer you about the porn issue. But, given your responses to virtually everyone, it seems to me the issue is not really the porn. It seems to be that things are moving back toward what they were before your A.

If that is the case perhaps you would be better served approaching your H about this rather than the porn use. You may hate porn, but apparently he does not. You may be correct in your assumptions about him, and then you may not.

But, if you want to work whatever it is that is really bothering you, perhaps you need to sit down and really define the problem, then perhaps help can be offered.

Best of luck,

JL