This is my first post. I don’t know how to start other than to present what I think is my whole story. My apologies in advance for its length.

My wife and I, both in our early 40’s, have been married for close to 20 years and have 3 children. Our relationship has been marked by frequent periods of conflict, usually initiated by me in response to her behavior.

I should mention here that within the last few days I have been made aware of something called “adult attachment disorder”, a condition that stems from unresolved childhood relationship traumas and often results in a diminished ability to trust others, especially in close relationships. In my case, at a young age I witnessed my father pack his bags and leave our family to live with his male “significant other”. It’s safe to say that this has impacted my handling of my romantic relationships. I have not yet sought counseling for this but am seriously considering it.

Our marriage has been troubled by my issues combined with a variety of behaviors by my wife, in particular angry outbursts, excessive flirtation and affection towards other men (strangers as well as acquaintances), obsession with her appearance, frequent late nights out in bars with girlfriends, and occasional trips to Vegas, etc with friends.

On one of the Vegas trips I am fairly certain that she was unfaithful. I have gobs of circumstantial evidence but she has denied that it was anything other than a friendship

I think many men would find that type of behavior difficult to tolerate for any length of time. When I have tried to explain to her that these things are hard for me to handle I get a negative, defensive response. She provides no reason as to why she needs/wants to do these things nor does she provide any reassurance to me as to her feelings about our relationship.

I want more than anything for our marriage to work and want to do whatever I can to help ensure that outcome but I feel more and more hurt every time she does these things. She is out now with friends, some of whom are male and who I have never met, and it is really getting to me.

There is much more to our situation than what I have written here but suffice it to say that I think my wife and I each have issues, mine as mentioned earlier and hers having to do with self-esteem / self-worth. I have asked her many times to agree to counseling but she refuses. So my questions: should I go to counseling without her or is that likely to increase the strain and tension if my situation starts to improve while hers remains unchanged? Other than counseling are there things I could try to get her to see my point of view and why I am hurt by these things? Any other ideas as to where I go from here?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts.

Hey Tired...I'm fairly new here as well, but I can tell you that there are a bunch of people here that can help you. Just be a little patient, and some of the more experienced folks will begin to weigh in.

The only thing I feel I can offer you at this point is that if you feel the need to seek counseling, then you should make that decision for you. Don't wait for your W to agree to it. The most important piece of advice I have recieved here is that you need to make you the best you that you can be. Focus on the issues that you need to improve on.

Thanks CZ. I'm still learning more about "attachment disorder" and the degree to which it is affecting me and my marriage. If it appears that counseling will help with either or both I will definitely go. Frankly though I am a bit concerned that my decision to go would validate my wife's opinion that our problems are solely a result of my problems.

It sounds to me as though you are acknowledging that a problem does exist, so why not address it? Whether it's your problem, her problem, or a mutual problem, it does exist, right? So, why not take steps to work on that? If you are able to address the issues you have, then you can begin to address the issues the two of you have. Understand that a marriage is a 50/50 proposition. Why would someone that loves you discourage you from figuring out a way to make your relationship better? If your W uses your desire for self improvement so that you can make your M stronger as a method of placing blame, then who has the problem? I mean, wouldn't she be relieved?

Again, I'm new here and I'm still working on my own situation, but in the brief time that I have been here, your description of your W's behavior is sending up some red flags. It sounds as though you are shouldering all of the responsibilty for any problems in your M, and all I can tell you is that, it takes two. And based on your original post, it sounds like your W hasn't exactly been working on maintaning a healthy M. Start working on you, and then you can get to the issue of us.

CZ I agree with your point about this being a 50/50 deal and as I posted earlier I would do anything to improve this situation. So, it's likely that I will seek counseling. My counseling, though, will not change her behavior and I think that behavior would be difficult to tolerate regardless of my emotional/mental state of affairs. She arrived home last night after 2am, intoxicated. Greeted me with a smile and then when I didn't return the smile and commented on the time, turned angry.

So basically you feel you have a "diminished ability to trust" and your wife exhibits behaviors that would give just about any man a reason for doubting her fidelity, correct?

How have you managed to deal with this for 20 years?

**edit**

But I think you are correct in saying you both need counseling.

It could be that she is acting this way consciously or unconsciously in order to "punish" you for not trusting her. Have you ever tried suppressing your lovebusting tendencies whenever she acts this way? Treat it as though it was no big thing?

It is also possible that she is actively looking for or engaged in an affair.

In either case, your wife is operating in an independent lifestyle mode in which she has little or no concern for your feelings. Even if she isn't currently having an affair, she is definitely vulnerable to one.

how old are your children? if some of the pp she hangs with are male, why dont you go with her? probalby not all the time, but enough to put a damper/wake up call on what she is doing.

going out tonight? care if i come along? or great, i'll meet you there.

you dont have to stay out til 2am with her and you dont have to drink... its called getting out of the house and spending time with your W.

do you spend any quality time together?

as far as the time she came home being 2 AM... i'm sure she knew what time it was. no reason to smile about it but no reason to comment on it either.

as for counseling, go.

i am new here too and have a disclaimer that reads "do not follow my advice if it doesnt fit your situation, period".

Our kids are 17, 15 and 5.

Some of the people she hangs out with are male. Not only have I never been invited to meet them but on the rare occasion when I have suggested that possibility she has responded that we should be allowed to have our own friends. She claims that if I had a group of female friends that she was not permitted to meet she would be completely comfortable with that, a claim I beleive to be untrue. I think she knows that I wouldn't behave in that way and so she feels safe in taking that position.

Yesterday when she told me that she was going out that evening I said something like "OK. Great. Have a good time and be careful." Things were fine until later when I mentioned that I might meet a couple of friends for dinner (in the same part of town that she would likely be) but that I would be home in time to put our youngest to bed. She quickly turned angry, almost as though she thought I would be checking up on her. This was followed by unusually lengthy phone calls to the friend she had planned to meet. These calls were made outside our house (i.e. out of range of my hearing) as are most of her calls to the two friends in whom I think she confides.

We do spend quality time together, mainly at home after the kids go to bed. We never go out alone, only as part of a group of friends - all couples, and when out with these groups she seems almost unaware of me and preoccupied with who is paying attention to her, flirting, etc.

Yes, I think that is a good way to capture the essence of the situation. So I guess that's a kind of a worse case scenario as far as two people married to each other.

How I have managed to deal with this for so long? Good question. I guess really what has kept me in the game is that I am hugely committed to keeping my marriage together for the sake of my children. So with divorce not an option I just try my best to tolerate the situation, with varying degrees of success.

I have tried to act as though the behavior doesn't bother me. I haven't been able to sustain that act though and it has never seemed to have had an impact on her behavior. Perhaps if I kept the act going for a long time things would change but I'm not sure if I could act for that long and I don't know that I should have to (or want to) continue to tolerate her behavior.

For what it's worth, while I know I havea issues with trust that pre-date my M my friends (not all of whom could have the same trues issues, right?) unanimously agree that her behavior is unacceptable. I have even had casual acquaintances tell me "wow you have your hands full with her" or "I could never be married to her."

Has she always acted this way or is this a relatively recent change?



If she has always acted in this manner and changing your behavior hasn't had an impact on hers, then it seems likely that these behaviors are ingrained in her; part of her personality.

The question then becomes, has this kind of behavior led to cheating on her part or a desire to cheat? Obviously it has created the opportunties to do so.

This is why Dr. Harley warns against couples engaging in independent lifestyles.

If she hasn't cheated on you and this flirtacious nature is simply a part of her personality then the two of you will have to reach some compromise on the issues of your ability to trust and her activities outside the home.

Do you think she would be willing to go to counseling, e.g., the Marriage Builders Weekend?

Tired:

Nice Day in MD today, isn't it?

One Thing.

You wife is either deeply involved in an Emotional Affair (EA) that may have led to a Physical Affair (PA).

She doesn't want you to meet these people.

She steps out of the house to call them. If it was a platonic friendship, why couldn't she talk in the house?

She ignores you when you go out with friends, and flirts outrageously with the other male members of the group.

She goes when she wants to, and come home when she wnats too, and sees no reason to account for her time and activities.

She tells you: "It OK for you to have close personal female friends"

You mention being in the area of her meeting with a "friend" and she has to go and consult and change plans and make sure you don't meet up with her.

And she has been in deep, for a long time, and you have done little to stop it.

But you logged on here in December and this is your first post.

Sorry you have to be here, but you are in the right spot to fix your marriage.

First, read all you can about Plan A, because that is what you have to do first.

Then get His Needs, Her Needs (HNHN) from this website. Don't go to the store, it takes to long. Just click and order it.

I would recommend that you also look into "Surviving an Affair" (SAA) to start understanding the process back to a better M after your W kicks her habit.

I don't know what "Adult Attachment Disorder" (AAD?) might be, but if I could get a grant from the feds to look into it for a couple of million dollars, I could apply it to a lot of people, myself included.

Your probably not much worse off than 90% of the folks around here, and there are folks with some real tragic family circumstances around here, and they have turned out ok.

Your AAD could strictly be because your W decided to flirt with other men and live an independent life from you, and who wants to attach to that?

But I did say that I could have suffered from AAD. My W told me for many years that I was independent and did NOT take her and her needs into consideration with the things I was doing. And I ended up in a A that lasted 4.5 Years. THAT didn't bring me closer to her, did it?

Since my W found this site, and the A was revealed, our M has been saved. If my W had not found this site, I would be divorced now. But we have an attachment now, the Dr. might diagnose Adult Hip Attachment Order...LOL


So, how about a little more info?

Ages?
Do you work? Does She?
Who makes more? Is all her money considered her own?
Do you have access to her banking and credit card info?
Do you have access to her cell phone records?
Have you ever had access to her cell phone?

And even if you are a guy, this is a pretty anonymous forum. You could be in OC, or Cumberland, and anywhere in between. I could have paused next to you at the traffic light this morning on the Pike, even.

So, don't be afraid to post here, and to learn from this site. Because there are a couple of hundred people that have been in your shoes on this site, and many of them want to help. And once you learn that you are not alone, it's alot easier to deal with your wayward wife. (WW)

Thanks for your helpful comments. I'll answer your questions and then make a few comments.

Ages? early 40s

Do you work? Does She? I do, she does not. I work from home, have my own business, and travel on a limited basis. She did work FT until about 7 years ago.

Who makes more? Is all her money considered her own? She has full access to all funds and I never question her spending decisions (they are never extravagant).

Do you have access to her banking and credit card info? Yes
Do you have access to her cell phone records? Yes
Have you ever had access to her cell phone? Limited

As incriminating or suspicious as her behavior may seem I just do not have any proof that she is having either an EA or PA. More often than not I find myself thinking that her behavior may be solely to get atttention. We have an active sex life (although never at her initiation) and she does maintain that everything is "fine" and I just don't see that she would have much opportunity to spend time with someone else (other than her evenings out with friends). But she is obsessed with being considered "hot". Maybe she suffers from some form of addiction. She recently got a tattoo even though I told her that, while she should do whatever she wanted to do, I find them unattractive on women. I was not judgmental about it, just stating my opinion. I likened it to me saying I wanted to grow a beard and having her tell me she really prefers me clean shaven, and then me deciding to grow the beard. I can only assume that she sees some positives from her decision that would outweigh the idea that I consider them a turn-off. In that regard, I would bet a paycheck that she will not miss the next opportunity to let people (i.e. men) know that she has a tattoo. Just as over the years, she has found ways to let people know in public settings about the "thong I am wearing" or has made sexual comments or has danced in extremely suggestive ways sometimes with strangers in front of me and our friends. It all seems to be part of an effort to be seen as the prettiest, or sexiest woman in whatever group we are with at the time. With all that being said I still don't know that she is having an affair - of either tyoe.

I think she has always tended to seek this type of attention but it seems to have become more of an obsession, more frequent and intense, over the last several years. I think it certainly has created opportunities to cheat - she is very attractive and guys in bars are often more than happy to provide positive reinforcement to her. I believe that she had an affair during a trip to Vegas a few years ago but I have nothing other than circumstantial evidence to support that belief.

She has flatly refused to go to counseling.

Post deleted by JustLetGo

Pardner, you need more information and now's as good a time as any to find out exactly what is going on. Frankly, there are a lot of red flags in what you've said so far that say she probably is involved in some kind of adultery.

May I suggest you take a look at a couple of links in my signature area? Click on the one that will lead you to a thread I started on how to set up a plan for marital recovery. I think it's a good starting point for you -- it should give you some ideas for what to do next. You badly need more information about your wife's activities. If you can afford it, you would be well advised to let a professional private investigator to research your wife's Las Vegas trips and the frequent nights out with the girls. Failing that, you can implement a pretty good surveillance using the pointers in the "Snooping 101" thread.

Friend, I know you don't want to believe your wife is betraying her wedding vows. It would be nice to find out all this is a psychiatric disorder but, man, you came to a forum dedicated to dealing with adultery. Your subconscious may well be telling you something.

How about finding out for sure? Are you strong enough to deal with whatever you find and willing to work hard to recover your marriage?

Let us know pardner, and good luck in whatever you do.

Tired:

Ok.

You make all the money and she spends it partying. Not a lot. But a chunk.

And she doesn't want you around while she does it.

She wants to be thought of as a sexy, racy, hot woman.

However, you do not give her enough of it.

You think you are have satisfying SF? Well, as long as you initiate.

BTDT.

I had SF with my W during my entire A, and it was good, too. Not anywhere near what we have now, but it was good....

So, although SF is a good barometer of Martial Bliss, it can also be faked.

BTDT.

Do you tell your W that she is sexy?

Do you show her how sexy, attractive, and desirable that she is?

Have you complimented her on her figure, hair, make up, etc., recently?

Do you think you have told her enough, and do not have to tell her anymore?

Your wife is exhibting Independent Behaviors that are goin to kill your M with your resentment.

Although you can not stop her from gettin a tattoo, the fact that she asked, and you didn't like the idea, and she did it anyway, is very troubling.

Then she wants to show other men her "thong" (isn't that what happened to one of our former presidents?) and now her "tattoo".

Very independent and disrespectful to you.

You claim she doesn't have time. She is with others. So she doesn't have time.

I beg to differ.

OW and I could get together and have SF/convo/hugs that lasted anywhere from 5 minutes to 3 hours. We adjusted to what we had.

And I was a master at padding time. Go to the store, instead of an hour, Its an hour and 1/2. Gotta go to the office? Takes two hours instead of an hour.

In that padded time? Convo/SF/Hugs/etc.

Whatever we could get.

Your W may not be having an EA or PA.

She just might be having one night stands.

Which do you prefer?

She may be out with "friends" but does not mean she stays with them the entire time, and was with them from beginning to end.

And since you do not know, and are not allowed to know, who these "friends" are, you can never cross check her behavior, or get the truth about what happened. For all you know, she has told them that you are going out the same night and meeting other people, and you two have an "open marriage". So, all her "friends" are cool with her behaviors.

I'll be blunt. If my W wanted to go out to bars and dance with other men, I'm fine with that. But I'm going to be there with her, and I'm taking her home that night. Personaly, I wouldn't get off the dance floor without her. But, if she wanted to dance, I would let her.

So, stop baby-sitting when she wants to go party. YOU GO TOO! If that cramps her style somewhat, so be it. SHE is YOUR WIFE. Make this part of your 15 hours a week together that Dr. Harley recommends. And if she flirts outrageously with the other men, you just trump any admiration she gets from them with your own for how sexy/hot/desirable that she is trying to be. And if that breaks you out of your comfort lavel, so be it.

And why does she get to go party and you do not?

Because the 5 year old is so stessful? The kitchen just takes to much out of her to clean? What?

Your working and why don't you get to party and blow off steam with her?

LG

put gps on car - have friend follow her?

or

put gps on car - stop in for a drink with frinds - you didnt know she was going to be there bc she didnt tell you where she was going?

stop babysitting whe she want to go part - YOU GO TOO (WELL SAID lg)

GREAT ADVICE lg!!!!!!

JustLetGo - Any recommendations for type of GPS to put on her car?

lousygolfer - thanks. I often tell my W how attractive she is, how hot, sexy etc. And how much I love her. She seems to care less about how I feel than she does about how others perceive her. Interestingly I once heard her closest friend say "once women are in their 40's they need to know that they are attractive to men other than their husbands" which I remember thinking was a really sad, pathetic way to feel. But perhaps my W agrees.

So to everyone who has responded to my original post, thank you. Several of you have mentioned red flags. It is good to hear that I am not alone in being disturbed by my W's behavior.

So now my question is should I confront her and ask her to explain suspicious behavior (which would entail my admission that I have scrutinized our cell phone bill) or would it be better to wait until I have real proof of an affair?

Why would you say nice things to a WS? They don't appreciate it. If you feel the need to say nice things, make sure you have the right audience.

Example:

BS: ________ (name), I need a favor.

WS: WHAT!

BS: (face her when you say this).....please go get my wife.

WS: I'm here.

BS: No, you are not my wife. My wife would not be so __________ (use whatever descriptive word you can w/o too much of an LB). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I have something nice for my W, so please go get her.

WS: Hmmmph.... you don't make sense, I'm right here.

BS: Not with her true personality. The person standing in front of me right now is impersonating my W and not doing a good job. Now let me know when my W gets here. She will like what I have to show her. (then walk away).

NOTE: I have done this to my then WS. It took a few disappointing tries but know WS' are a stubborn and slow learning lot. Be prepared NOT to speak to your real W for a while but what you will have done is churn the internal WS pot and another quality of the WS is curiousity. They have to know what the BS is up and sometimes the WS would be willing to sacrfice bringing your real spouse out for a breather to satisfy that craving. That's the key. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Got it?

L.