That situation, as painful as it is to you seems quite recoverable. The emotionally unavailable to you part sounds like "I love you but am not in love with you" and makes me wonder if there is an emotional investment for her outside your marriage, an EA. could be PA as well but if you two are still affectionate when you initiate and have SF, then could go either way. My WW would respond to my initiating before I exposed the A and sometimes initiated herself.

So anyway, I think it would still probably help you if you went and got
Surviving an Affair (SAA) - PlanA can woo an emotionally withdrawn spouse back to where they are ready to engage again, you just may not have anything to expose.

LoveBusters (LB) - help you eliminate habits and behaviors that erode your wife's feeling of romantic love for you. There are some pretty astonishing things in this book. I could not believ how much Disrespectful Judging I did and still have to be on guard against.

His Need Her Needs - helps you identify and build habits that reinforce your wife's feelings of romantic love for you. This is the flip side of the LveBusters. Implementing both can yield huge gains fast.

That being said, I would read and implement the concepts in these books. If your W is not invested elsewhere, she will notice changes in you pretty soon and probably ask what is up. You will be able to then show her LB anf HNHN and work together to implement the concepts. She will have already seen the changes in you and be ready to investigate them on her end.

If she get irritable or starts proviking you while you are PlanAing, she is probably in an affair and will be uncomfortable with the changes in you as she will be confused about what she wants. She'll test you and provoke you to see if the changes are "real". if you fall for it she will then justify your reaction as why she is right to have an affair. DO NOT INITIATE DISCUSSION ON THIS TOPIC WITH HER. LET HER INITIATE. Yous just get educated, create a plan and execute it. These are Mr. Wondering's Do's and don'ts of plan A I review them as often as necessary, daily or more frequently:

DOs

1. Act Happy
2. Get a life (new activities, etc.)
3. repeat over and over..."I will make it"
4. Actively LISTEN....keep conversations at "to the point...small talk" ...don't blow it up beyond the waywards current comfort zone
5. Tend to Agree (Thank you for your truthfulness, It seems that way, you have a point)
6. Expand your social relationships (Being especially aware of your own vulnerability and keeping sharing and time with opposite sex relationships to an absolute minimum)
7. Get sexy (gym, new clothes, etc)
8. Focus on your strengths and Positives...don't put yourself down verbally or constantly go over what you did wrong
9. Accept Uncertainty (Do your best today and let God take care of tommorrow)

DON'Ts

1. Repeatedly say "I love you"
2. Ask questions that don't have answers yet
3. Criticize, complain, whine or nag
4. Say, "I've changed"....allow the wayward spouse to simply judge your actions
5. Argue, Reason or Plead
6. Don't get family or friends overly involved in recovery (notice I said "in recovery", EXPOSURE to bust up an active affair IS ESSENTIAL and EXPOSURE to the OP's spouse is an absolute MUST)
7. Act helpless or depressed
8. Discuss morality, invoke God or Dr. Laura type babble
9. Suggest marital counseling (must be the waywards idea)
10. Tell them continually "we need to work on the relationship"
11. GIVE UP

Thanks for the advice. So if I understand your point and the Do/Don't list, your suggestion would be not to tell her my feelings about her lack of interest in reading the book? And, to implement a plan that embodies the do/don't list?

In the past I have, particularly in response to her IB, behaved in ways that were partly consistent with those lists. Typical reaction from my W was "why are you being an [censored]?" or "oh I guess I'm being punished for going out", etc.

It is very difficult for me not to let her know in some way or other (perhaps not the most constructive way) that I am hurt by her behavior.

Is this Plan A and the do/don't list consistent or not with the idea of establishing boundaries?

My pleasure. Yes, you understand me about sharing feelings, it is OK to do when she asks, but not otherwise. If she is not asking, she doesn't care and you will only annoy her or sound whining or clingingy to her. Remember this is not yet about what is true to you but how your W perceives things. And yes, the Do's and DON'ts are specific guidelines for the PlanA, but are not themselves a complete PlanA. Still need to work on your own LB behaviors and change those that you believe will make you a better man, better husband, better father. DO NOT change anything because you think you think your W would like it, that is the wrong reason and you will not be able to sustain those changes. Make yourself into what you want to be. the DO's and DON'Ts are shorter term action items, eliminating LB is permanent. HNHN stuff you can probably make a good guess at, but eventually you will need your W's input as to what her ENs are. Until she is to the point that she is interested in sharing though, you kind of need to guess or play the percentages and work on the "typical" woman's ENs.


Kind of confusing without reading the books I know, and since most people trying to offer advice have read them we tend to take stuff for granted. I apologize for not being totally clear.

PlanA includes the "short term" DO's and DON'Ts, kind of like first aid and the longer term elimination of LBs and building habits that meet ENs. some of the DO's and DON'Ts may end up translating into long term things like:

Active listening - learing how to listen well will be a good thing long term
get fit - probably good long term too

I will read the books. If they are as helpful as Hendrix's book I will be much better off.

Meanwhile, my W just asked me what is wrong to which I, instinctively, replied "nothing". But I then corrected my self and told her that I was angry and disappointed that she chose to read something other than the relationship book that I thought offerred a lot of insight and suggestions etc.

She became defensive and told me that she didn't want to read the book in public (she was going to be at a dance class with my D) and that I should find "something real to be angry about." I followed her out of the room and calmly asked her if she thought this situation was not real. Told her that this is not my problem, it is our problem. To which she said "I told you I would read the book."

That was the end of the discussion. I probably just violataed every rule in the book but I feel so much better for having told her what was bothering me rather than keeping it in like I usually tend to do.

Ok, here it is as you requested.

First of all what is going on has been going on so long that entitlement has set in. Changing your wife as this point in time is going to take a nuclear explosion and a reason for her to change.

Secondly, you ain't gonna change nothing except yourself. Work on you, not her. You can't lead if you are out of control of yourself. So you have an education to acquire. And this support group is a good start. But it is only a start.

Third. Don't ask her to do anything. That is controlling behavior. Just tell her what you are going to do in your life. Inform her that some of what you are going to do is based on what she does. Be willing to explain what you expect from her and that you believe that what you expect may or may not be reasonable for her as a person, but is what it is and that is the way it is going to be.

For example, if you want her to quit going out with the boys, simply state that what she is doing is inappropriate in a real relationship and if she continues, you will then get out of her life so she can do it all the time if she wants. Emphasize that you are not trying to tell her what to do, just informing her what you are going to do for the rest of your life in terms of relationships. Don't argue about it.

It is all about boundaries, which have not been a part of your relationship.

If I had to guess, she is hooked on the endorphins of affairs. Many women are. Real Langley's book for more information of the several that are out there. Google it. And she may also have kinks you cannot or will not take care of. You may have a Madonna complex or she may.

Plan A is full of boundaries. Post questions on how that works in that forum.

Don't take it personal. Media in this country has brain washed women to the point where is a wonder they ALL don't have affairs. Maybe they do.

Decide what YOU want from her and either get it or divorce, with no ultimatums except an explanation of how you intend to live your life with or without her. Women respond very well to male leadership and not at all to wimps except with contempt.

Staying married for the sake of the kids implies that you are willing to be a doormat while she does what she wants to do. This is not a healthy environment for the kids to learn from, now is it?

Gameface has given you great advice.

Larry

Larry - Thank you for the reply. I have been away from this site for a while for a number of reasons and that has given me time to reflect on all the thoughtful responses, read the Emotioanl Needs and Love Busters books, and just generally try to think things through.

In this time my W started to read the Hendrix book but stopped after a few pages. No apparrent interest in resuming or picking up EN or LB. As you and others have suggested Larry, I think she may feel that everything is fine and that therefore no effort need be put into making things better.

I expect that my W will be going out with friends later this week (she hasn't said anything to me yet but it has been about a month since she last had one of these nights out and that is a bit longer than average between outings).
From all outward appearances everything has been good between us since the last "girls night out" but I feel myself heading towards a blow-up if/when she goes out again. More to the point, if she comes home again at 2am. I am afraid that it may come as a shock to her but I feel that I want to tell her that I am done tolerating that particular behavior. Thing is, I am not sure what I mean by that, as I have concluded that I will not move out w/o my kids (and why should I have to?) and I don't know what my other options are. Is this where Plan B comes into play? From what I know of Plan B it is similar to how I have handled this situation previously. On those occasions my W has been completely willing to let days pass without speaking and has made comments to her friends (in my presence) that she is being punished by me.

So Larry, getting back to your reply, I am more than ready to say to W that she can do whatever she wants but that this kind of thing doesn't work for me. Where I am stuck though is that if I won't leave (I have doubts about the legality of me taking the kids) and she won't leave how do I back up my words. Is my only option really to leave my house and kids? If so, that sucks.

Funny, as I've been writing this I have started to think that a few weeks of reflection and book reading really hasn't gotten me very far.

Tired:

Glad your back. Sometimes, folks use there thread as sort of a compass, to help guide them and let them know how far they have come.

Your Final Line:

Funny, as I've been writing this I have started to think that a few weeks of reflection and book reading really hasn't gotten me very far.


OH, Really?

I think it has.

She hasn't gone out for a month. She may do it soon, but the frequency is reduced. And You have established some boundaries with her and put some teeth into them.

You need to start thinking about a Plan A environment. Making you the choice for an evening out. To be the FUN one. Not these other people.

Plan B? Might come to that.

She might be in an A. You haven't done the snooping needed to determine this, and she just might be hanging with other people in a platonic way, but the ground is being tilled for something more...

Punishment for her actions?

Of course. She decides to go partying all night and you don't approve. Punishment? You don't talk to her. And she doesn't talk to her. Your not plan Bing her. You are Lovebusting her, and not setting clear boundaries of acceptable behaviors.

What could be a clear boundary?

She goes out. You know who she is with, who they meet up with, where they went, and what happened.

My W can go out tonight. So can I. However, all of the above is discussed beforehand and then afterward. Can I go out with a woman by myself? No. Can my W go out with a man by herself? No. But can we go with a group? Yes. Can we use this group to cover up a later meeting up with ONE person, NO! That's the open and honest part. You calling the others and confirming info? Mandatory, until she can be trusted.

That is the boundary. Open and honest about what is going on. NO stepping out of the house to phone the friend if your activity for the evening may intersect with hers. Thats secrecy and indicating that something inapporpriate is going on.

Can all this change overnight? Yes. Very unlikely. But it can. More likely? It took you 15 years to get here. It ain't changing overnight. Behaviors change slowly. You change yours, and firm up your boundaries incrementaly and slowly her behaviors will change. She will respond positivly to your positive changes.

And if she doesn't, then that is her loss, not yours.

Remember, the door in not chained, and her foot is not chained to the floor. These are HER Choices. NO pain, no behavior changes.

OK?

Lousygolfer (by the way aren't we all?) - Thanks for the reply.

A couple of things: first, she is going out tonight. She has told me with whom (same divorced friend who is involved with a married man that she always goes with. Incidentally these are the only situations in which my wife and this particular friend have any contact with each other) but if past is any precedent I will get no details tomorrow as to where, who else was present, etc.

Second, the frequency has not really decreased it's just that scheduling conflicts prevented her from going out until now.

Third, as for boundaries I've started to make clear what doesn't work for me (e.g. hanging out with guys in bars without me) and have been very careful to state that in a way that is not disrespectful to her, essentially saying that she can do whatever she wants but that I can't be happily married to a woman that engages in that behavior. No judgment about the appropriateness of it, or speculation as to why she wants to continue to do it, just me telling her that it doesn't work for me.

So, assuming I haven't unwittingly commited LB in my handling of it, I really don't see how my lack of interest in meeting her EN (which is how I feel each time she does this) is in itself a LB. I'm not being selfish (am I?), disrespectful, angry, dishonest, etc. I am just not able to ignore her behavior - which I see as a choice on her part to do something that she knows hurts me - and pretend that all is fine and work even harder on meeting her needs. How am I supposed to continue to commit myself to her happiness in the face of her clear demonstration that she is not equally interested in mine?

An example: I make tea for her every morning while she is in bed. Last night she informed me that she is going out tonight. This morrning I did not feel like making her tea and I did not. She later made her own and said to me sarcastically "thanks for the tea".

Am I just so dense that I am beyond hope in trying to comprehend these concepts? Please help.