I just read this today, posted by Larry. All the Plan A, Plan B stuff is fine, but I wonder if Larry's plan might not be the best. At least a wife will have respect.

"In my opinion;

1. You are needy. She knows it.
2. She is working you on that basis for whatever it is she wants, likely money.
3. Women don't respect needy men very much.
4. Your kid needs you.

So, get a grip, be in charge of yourself and get on with our life.

Just my opinion.

Yes, kick her out, aka grow a pair. BS fog: I had it bad. I couldn't think I was so mixed up. Talk about scrambled brains. That was me. I had NOT found this place yet. I talked to a guy at the suicide hotline who got me straight.

The points I remember are:

1. Get your head on straight. Forget her, think of you and the kids. What is best for YOU and the kids. She isn't thinking of you, she is thinking of herself.

2. Figure out what YOU want. If it is her, tell her exactly what you want and do not compromise. She either gives you what you want, without exception and without holding back or kick her [censored] out.

3. Life will go on with or without her. But the kids need a healthy dad and a healthy mom. If she isn't going to get her head on straight, that isn't your problem it is her's and the kid's, so at least you can be there for them.

4. She screwed up, not you. You are under no obligation to repair her problem. She is trying to make her problem your problem, don't buy it.

Well, I thought about it for about ten minutes and asked a couple of clarifying questions. I realized that I had hocked my manhood and needed to go to the pawn store and get them back, right now. I hoisted them up and called my wife who was out "Shopping." I said: "Get it home, I have made up my mind what and where I am and what I am going to do."

She did, madder than all get out. That made no difference. I simply said: "Get rid of him or I am gone right now, and I will not come back." I said some other stuff that isn't important to your situation near as I can tell.

She got rid of him immediately. I gave her a set of instructions and boundaries. To this day she follows them without exception. I love her. She says she loves me and acts like it.

It doesn't always work. It did for me. Your mileage may vary. But your life will be screwed up as Hogan's goat until you take charge of it. So will your kid's."

Larry

I guess I should be flattered. I also need to add some caveats. I spent about six months after that trying to figure affairs out, the precursors and the conditions and the recovery. I still study the subject almost every day.

My boundaries were:

1. No more affair(s). Do it again or do it still and I am out of your life, period, no second chances, no second guesses, period, the end, I mean it.

2. I courted her. I didn't do it with roses, I did it with talking about her life, mine, the kids, dates and just general concern and communication. I still do.

3. I re-established intimacy. No, not SF although that never stopped throughout the situation except for a week, I mean true intimacy as in touching, talking, etc. .

4. I found out what her problems were and helped her with the ones I could help her with and told her to deal with the others as best she could - get help from pros as needed.

5. I am lucky. My best bud in life is a shrink. He helped her a lot and me some <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

6. Eventually she got over it. I did too, more or less. I still hate it. I guess she does too, as she makes comments from time to time that indicate she wished there was a reset button in life.

My wife still has some issues where her thinking is still muddled up. Doesn't everyone? Maybe me too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

In essence, I regained my role as a leader in our marriage, which is not to say dominant, I mean leader. I had taken my eye off the ball because of business pressures that had me working day and night. I knew she was vulnerable, but thought I could trust this one relative, who as it turned out, was a snake. Or at least an idiot, take your pick.

Life goes on as best it can.

Larry

PS One other boundary: We build a new relationship. With no choice of mine, you shot the old one in the groin. It is dead and buried along with my trust in your honor. Go buy some honor and ethics and build a new foundation on a new you and a new relationship with me. It won't be easy; honesty and retribution never is.

She stayed mad at me for about a week. She tried to sneak around and contact the OM. I stayed the course and ignored what was going on, giving her time to figure it out. After a week, she did a 180 and thereafter invested all of her energy and emotions in the direction we both wanted her to go.

Larry Rawks!

~ Marsh

Sounds like a good Plan A to me.

An ultimatum rather than Plan B doesn't work for everyone, but I'm glad it woke her up.

Larry did a Plan Lemonman. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I've been watching the men here go through some very awful times with their WW's, including the WW "dating" (leaving BH home to babysit), texting and phoning their OM from the home, ridiculing their BH. I know that men who are cheating will lie, but some women seem to take the disrespect to a higher level, blatantly rubbing the affair in the BH's face.

I know Larry's plan with the ulitmatum isn't a MB plan, but I've seen it work for several men.

It lets the wife know that her husband must be respected, and also seems to soften the blow to BH's ego.

Bunp for Dev

Still

Women are typically NOT going to be with a man they cannot respect. A man's respect comes from within himself based on the vision of who he is.

Unfortunately, most women need a reminder from time to time that the man they are with respects himself. I do not mean that a man must abuse a woman.

Larry

Larry,

Can you check in on Dev's thread... I think your advice might help.

Still

PS
I wish my H respected himself enough not to have an affair

Who is Dev and what is the thread?

Yea, well, I respected myself well enough not to retaliate and have an affair myself. I do understand your pain. Not all guys see it the way I do.

Larry

Mulan posted this:


I guess you could say my own method was carrot and stick of plan A - courting I also had boundaries - do it again and I am gone.

Or is that an ultimatum? And what is wrong with an ultimatum if handled like a boundary?

To me, an ultimatum can be like a choice; do this and you have made a choice that a certain consequence will happen.

I think that I need more help with the difference between an ultimatum and boundaries so I won't pass out bad advice, if in fact that is what I am doing.

Larry

Larry.

I will bump up Devasted's thread for you

Still

Others will disagree with me on this <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> but i personally think that a boundary, IS an ultimatum, if you bother to state it to the other person.

However, i think it is like "Selfish demand" vs "Thoughtful request".
Both are asking the other person to change, or do something. However, one way is done in a more reasonable and considerate fashion.

note: if you silently "enforce a boundary", then you are not "asking them to change", and isnt technically an ultimatum. However, if you tell them you are going to "enforce a personal boundary", that is, by definition, an ultimatum. "If you do/dont do X, I am going to do Y".

If "doing Y", is something about yourself.... then that also puts it in the "boundary" category. But it doesnt take it out of the ultimatum definition by doing that.

Thank you techie, that sounds like what I understood and reinforces my opinion.

Ummmm, well, if someone kicks me in the groin, I am not going to be exactly reasonable and respectful about how I deal with that. Affairs are a kick in the groin. I guess I am too, uh, er, unreasonable.

Hey that isn't directed at you. You answered my question in a way I could understand and I really appreciate it.

Again, thanks.

Larry

Well, that sounds like a perfectly good boundary to me. It could be reworded as, "I will not participate in a relationship where you are cheating. You can knock yourself out and cheat all you want, but I will no longer be part of your life if you do."

It's a boundary because you are not ordering her to change HER behaviour - you are just informing her that if the cheating does not stop, you are going to change YOUR behaviour (by leaving her).


All boundaries are implicitly ultimatums, but not all ultimatums are boundaries. Does that help? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

"Stop seeing OM, or else!" is an ultimatum - and an unenforceable one. What will you do, tie her up with duct tape so she can't go out with him anymore? It might make you feel better but in the end the jail time probably wouldn't be worth it.

"If you keep seeing OM, I will remove myself from this relationship" is a boundary. You CAN enforce this one as long as you have the backbone to do so, and only the WS can decide if this is a sufficient consequence for them to want to change their own behaviour.

Another example that I have used myself: "If you are going to give Valentine's Day gifts to the women you work with, then feel free to spend money by the bucket and shop 'til you drop - but I do not want ANY Valentine's Day gifts from you as long as you are giving gifts to other women. I will return any gifts I receive from you as long as I have any reason to think you are giving gifts to other women, too. I will not be a face in my husband's crowd."

That's a boundary.

And I think your advice is just fine.
Mulan

Thanks Mulan.

From the Wayward Wife archives, comes this little piece of wisdom.

"Hey, I wasn't about to let you leave. The OM was a complete dolt as a father and I wouldn't subject my kids to that. Or yours either.

"I believed you when you said you would leave. I didn't like losing my little fantasy, but I had to face reality. So I got mad at you and stayed that way for a week as little good as it did me.

"I had feelings for him, that is why I did what I did, but that doesn't make me a complete idiot, I knew in the back of my mind the two of us were a complete mismatch. He was weak and wanted me to solve his problems. I had problems of my own to solve, I didn't need his.

"You changed, or at least my view of you changed."

From the mouths of FWW.

Larry

Agree.

And if he really doesn't respect himself?

Maybe some don't respect themselves. But many, many just want to save the marriage, and keep the family together for their children. These are the guys I admire. But sometimes I think Larry's plan might be better than an extended Plan A.

Letting a wife walk all over you doesn't make for a very attractive man.

I know when I lost respect for my WH, that was the end. I could be angry, or hurt, but when I no longer respected him, any hope for the marriage was dead.

In my opinion, you can work to save the family and work to save the kids, both without allowing a WS to walk all over you. Respect is one of the foundations for a woman having an extended relationship with a man.

It isn't always about an adrenalin high.

Larry

Larry,
I agree with your initial post on what you did. not all plans are perfect and may not apply. My wife is moving out and we are legally separating because she wants to go out with other people and she wants to experience that and explore that (ofcourse I caused her to be unhappy for last many years). so my plan is to work on me and my kids and court her and see if things will change. I cannot influence her today. My threats or ultimatums has no answer (at least today)--she is going to do what she has made up her mind

Michelle Langley has a couple of books out that attempt to explain a woman's relationship issues. They might be a worthwhile read for you.

Larry