You must respect yourself enough to say ENOUGH, and cut her off from her source of finance.

Most of the reason for your emotional distance is that you ARE. She is going to someone else to get her other needs met and you are meeting her need for family and financial freedom, with no net or gross returns. If you believe that she will stop cheating or gallavanting around like some love starved twit, without you putting your foot down and putting her out, you are sorely mistaken!

You are right where she wants you whenever she wants you for whatever she wants. Buying her presents and treating her with respect that she sure as [censored] doesn't deserve will not turn her hard heart.

If you say no cheating, then what is the consequence? In my case, it was that WH doesn't live with me anymore, and I give him nothing, nada, and I consulted a lawyer and got an LSA.

Have to say that Jim is offering some great advice. HD..I wish I had more to offer you here, but think the experts are really giving you some good stuff. In many ways, I have many of the same fears that you do, and we seem to be in similar places emotionally.

Just about everyone I know personally tells me the same things you hear.."You deserve better" "Get rid of her" "She's screwing you over..how much more do you want to take" "you've done everything you can do...she's not going to change". I often think that these people are right on the mark, and buy into that. But then I think that all of these people have NEVER been in this situation..yet, everyone here offering advice, HAS been in this situation. That's what keeps me coming back here. It's counterintuitive as he11. Someone told me that if you want an amicable D, then that's exactly what you'll get...a D.

On another note..Jim, I'd appreciate any advice you might be able to provide on my thread. Your messages seem to resonate with me in some way.

So it looks like I went too far trying to meet her EM's in plan A, and went too far in avoiding LB's. All you've said makes sense to me. I know she's using me. I see my weaknesses, like you say.

I'm meeting Steve H next Wed and on Tue meeting an "aggressive" lawyer my dad referred me to. I'll talk about all these things with both of them, which will be possible, what my options are. The hardest ones will be to get her to move out, and there's no legal separation in Texas. But we'll see what my options are, to try to force end the A, make her realize it has to stop.

Whether the things I've done to end her affair were sufficient or not, they sure seem that way to her - She was really devastated by the exposure, and now her relationship with her mother is really under pressure like never before - I can tell that. She sees the things I'm doing to "save the marriage" as really aggressive, - has said she's worried about what's next, was worried I'd go violent on her.

But I hear you guys and thanks for all the advice.

I think you are confused. You still should be trying to meet her ENs like conversation and admiration (about what a good mother/cook etc. she is) and avoid LBs, but what you are doing is like giving an unemployed crack addict a welfare check. Do you understand?


Just make sure you lawyer understands your goal of legally protecting your custody right while you try and end your W's affair and save your M. Tell him that upfront. Most lawyers will talk you into divorce. Don't do it if that's not what you want, but it may be in your best interest to protect yourself and you can drop it later.


Do you know what she's really scared to death of? Being cut off financially.

Responding to what HonestGuy said, I get silimar feedback from everyone I talk to: "You deserve better" "Get rid of her" "Get a divorce now!", but this is the only place where I get advice on how to save this seemingly dead marriage. I really should hang around here more often, because it's so easy for me to give in and join that chorus.

What's hard to do is take these decisive actions you're recommending, when my wife just doesn't understand why I'm doing them, and instead sees me as a raving lunatic, a coward, weakling (the opposite of how I see myself) - I know that's just the reaction, but I hate seeing her think I'm that way when really I'm fighting for her. But I can't explain why I'm doing these things, since that will defeat the purpose.

I have spoken with two lawyers now, just to get advice but not to file or anything. They said that I can't get her out of the house if she doesn't want to go (and she doesn't) (since there's no physical abuse), there's no legal separation in TX, I most likely won't be able to prove that she's a bad parent despite the affair, though there's a good chance I could get primary custody since we're both good parents but she cheated (i.e. being a man is not a strike as much anymore), but I'll have to pay alimony since we've been married >10 years and she has no income. She won't want to leave the house, we had a big argument about that several weeks ago. So plan B would have to be me moving out and trying to take the kids, but she would be screeching over that, and would probably file something to keep them in the house. Whatever I do, it will be tough and ugly, unless I fold and go for the amicable divorce.

I think my wife is also manipulating me into putting up with the affair. I wonder if OM is coaching her into this. I'm not sure, but I suspect it, from the computer monitor I have. After the last time I caught her at his place, she seemed to have bounced back to her normal self (I posted this also), but now I think it was her trying to manipulate me into not taking any drastic action. I didn't because I thought maybe it was genuine, that she had snapped out of it. I will get the GPS as you've recommended Jim.

Hey HD. I know it is tempting to buy into those opinons from friends and family. You respect those people, they care about you and want to see you happy. They see that you are miserable right now, and they also see that what is happening to you is flat wrong. And...you want the pain to stop too. So, the easiest thing to do, is just give in. Give her the D, and get on with your life. You'll be friends after the D for the sake of the kids...right? Are you hearing that one too?

My WW is basically offering me everything right now. She's going to just walk away...no equity from the house, not interested in my retirement account, leaving the majority of household goods, will agree to shared parenting..50/50. Told me that we'll be friends afterwards...we have to b/c of our daughter. Told me that she wouldn't even mind dating me, that we seem to have our sex life going pretty well now that she's decided that, in her mind, she's no longer married. That's a really tempting deal, and sometimes I think about taking it. Know what stops me? She's lying through her teeth.

At the same time she tells me those things, she's also telling me that there's nobody in the picture. Yet, I know that she made a 10 minute cell phone call today. To who? When I asked her about it, she wouldn't tell me. When I told her that all she had to do was prove to me that nobody else is hanging around in the background, she said she didn't have to. "Why does it matter anyways?" is what she told me. "So what if I'm talking to 50 people...we're still getting a divorce one way or another."

So, like you, I get conflicted as well. I don't always do the right thing, but I'm trying. What keeps me coming back here is that the advice IS solid. I know that my WW is an addict. She's making very bad choices. It's my job to protect my DD from her craziness. Your wife is doing the sme thing my wife is doing, which is forcing you into a corner emotionally. Your fears, which are legitimate, are what she is playing on. Don't let your fear control you.

Thanks honestguy. I admire you for your strength and resolve. Just reading your two messages makes me believe there's an affair going on as well. WS's are so good at talking their way around these things, and it sounds like my wife when she dances around the truth.

I agree that this advice is solid. It's just that people are different, and everyone might not agree with this, but I believe that my wife is a special case.

I don't think I can be the kind of guy that she could fall in love with. I don't think meeting all her EM's and avoiding all the LB's would make her fall in love with me. She says that falling in love is based on "chemistry" between the two people, and there's just none between us, but a lot between her and OM. I'm like a square peg, she's a round hole, its ... hopeless. I never thought I'd believe this, but I'm now starting to.

I just read an email my wife sent to OM. It's just like before, nothing's changed. I know I haven't taken all the drastic steps, haven't been aggressive enough, I've been trying to make her happy, but there is NOTHING in her for us anymore, other than the fact that we have two kids. When I knew something was wrong with our marriage before I found out about the affair, I was trying so hard to improve our relationship, fix things I knew she didn't like. But she just didn't accept anything, and surely doesn't now. I know it's because of the affair, and I know that I would have to force this affair to end for any hope of success. But I can't end the affair. She'll always keep in touch with him no matter what I do, even if I did everything that's been recommended to me.

I'm going to have to take the drastic steps of getting some kind of separation, but she's going to fight leaving the house, and that will take a long time to resolve, and will probably not be successful. Jim you say she will cave, but I don't think she will. Her relationship with her mother was very important to her, but she's sacrificing it for OM. She will sacrifice me too, and she's said it. She doesn't want to lose my financial support and family committment like you say, but she knows that she ultimately won't lose the money because we're in a community property state.

The ONLY thing that really gets to her is the kids. She really wants not to hurt them or give them a disadvantage by splitting up. And she says that I should do the same, I should get over her and tolerate her affair for the kids. I agree, I hate to split up and give the kids a disadvantage by leaving her, but I believe that it's better that way than having an marriage like ours. That's a disadvantage as well - those kids will grow up with a warped idea of what marriage should be like.

I'm going to talk to Steve Harley about this on Wednesday. I'll do whatever he says, as long as it's legally possible. I really don't know what I should do. I feel like I'm on my last rope.

Hopeful,

Do you realize how your rationalizing your lack of effort is soooo inconsistent? It is most frustrating really. Permit me to quote a few of your statements.


Nope, not even close.


So are you giving up?? If you are you might as well try what has been suggested to you since you came here. You CAN be the kind of guy that attracts your W. How do I know? She is YOUR wife now, and you attracted her before.

If you feel the marriage is over then way are you so afraid of her anger. I will tell you this quite frankly, I would much rather she respect you and be mad at you, than for her to think you are a wimp, that won't fight for the marriage.

Guess what she thinks now? She feels she can do this with impunity because you don't have the guts to make her pay. Do you have the guts, if you don't, you need to find some.

Nothing has changed because you have changed NOTHING. Time to change the rules of engagement and slinking away with your tail between your legs is NOT the way to do this or go out of your marriage.

Your kids are being hurt now. Her disrespect for you shows through to the kids, don't worry about that. They see many things you don't see, and they see her lack of respect for you in everything you do.

Finally, it is not your job to walk behind her with a pooper scooper, and clean up her MESSES, and this is her mess. You need to step back are realize that she so far has read you right.

You will allow her the affair with no consequences to her. You are not MAN enough for her, because you won't fight for you marriage, and yes inflict some pain if it is required.

You hold the key, your W is NOT unique. She is a cake eater just like all of the rest of the cheating, lying WS's. Nothing special, nothing smart, nothing redeeming about her, just like the rest. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I do hope you listen to Steve Harley, but most of all you need to decide that you will "do what it takes" to give this marriage it's best shot.

Think about it.

God Bless,

JL

OK, I just got back from confronting the OM. I knocked on his door, he answered, and I told him who I was, that I thought he needed to end his affair with my wife, that he was hurting her and her family, and my two young kids, that I didn't want them to grow up in a broken family, and that I loved my wife and I am going to work on saving my marriage. I wasn't confrontational, was cool and collected, had made myself look good, and looked him in the eyes the whole time. He said he appreciated me coming over to talk to him, and said he agreed that it should stop, and that he had actually told her last week that it should, but that they'd exchanged a few emails since then, but that he agreed it was the right thing to do. And that was it. Short and to the point. Now he has a face and a person to think of when he thinks about my name.

I was so incredibly nervous about doing this. I felt intimidated by him before, since he was the one who had won command of my wife over me. I expected a great looking, charismatic guy. But talking to him made realize he wasn't all that, in fact he wasn't all that good looking, not tall, full of grey hair for a 36 year old, (sorry if any of you have grey hair) and seemed like just any other guy. It made me realize, what does this guy have over me? How could my wife be head over heals for this guy? And it made me think that if my wife lets me leave over this guy, she's really losing a lot!!!

Well, I wanted to tell you that I'm still fighting! I did something I was really afraid of doing, but did it anyway! To save my marriage. I just thought, I'm at my last rope, what do I have to lose? Even if I end up losing my wife, I will always be proud of myself for doing this. If I lost my wife without having done this, I know I would really regret it.

Almost always WWs affair down. If she can feel chemistry with that loser OM, she can feel it for you, you just need to work at getting it back. Things are going to be rough until it happens, but take it from me, it can happen. Just don't give up.

I'm declaring a family emergency and am doing the necessary steps to end this affair.

I'm going to take time off from work, a month if I have to, so I can stay with my wife at all times. If I lose my job over this so be it - she's more important to me than my job.
I'm password protecting the computers, so she can't contact him by email anymore.
I'm taking the keys to her car so she can't go there anymore.
I'm taking her cell phone away and will screen her calls.
I'm going to close the accounts, and transfer money if I have to.
She's not going anywhere without me.
I'm going to talk to her friends, get them on board.
This will be a full time job for me for the next month.
IF she refuses, then she can leave.
These are the terms.

Serious problems require serious solutions.

I don't care anymore about anything else. Saving this marriage will be my number one prioroty now. The soft tactics aren't going to work. I don't care if I lose my job (I'll do fine without one for a while anyway). I'm declaring an emergency. I'd rather be without a job than without a wife and family.

Wish me luck!!!

(edited for typo's)

I took my FWW on a three-week vacation overseas. We had a great time and I saw no evidence of her contacting the OM. When we returned, I assumed that she would not contact the OM for any reason except business (they still worked together).

Then I caught her IM'ing the OM one night.

What worked - I told her that I prefer that she move out if if she continued to disrespect our M like that. After a "closure meeting" with the OM, she never IM'd him again. That the OM was already finished with her did make the process easier though.

She is very angry about this. I thought for a moment that she would be kinda moved by the fact that I'm taking drastic steps, but of course not. She says I'm doing it just for me, that I don't care about her. She thinks I'm doing all this because of my ego, that my ego can't take my wife cheating on me. She's partially right, but isn't that the case for anyone? But she thinks I don't care about her. I just don't understand what she's thinking. She really doesn't understand that what's she's doing is hurtful. It does make me angry and hurts my ego, but all this comes from the pain it's causing me. She won't listen to me when I tell her I love her but can't have the affair going on. She really believes that she deserves this affair, and that I should accept it. She says she's not a textbook case. I wanted to say yeah, you have extra special needs, don't you? But if I did, she'd miss the punchline and say "no duh..".

And she's really acting like a child. When I get a phone call, she's coming over to "listen", to treat me the same way I'm treating her by taking her phone away.

She does want me to write all this down, she wants me to explain why and so forth. So I'm writing her a long letter now.

Guys let me know if I'm going off the deep end, if I should do things differently. I need help!

And give me some tips I can say on this letter! It's to a WW so she's deep deep in Fog land.

Can I make this horse drink? Will this strategy just make her resent me more (and get me fired in the process)? Is it just a huge LB? Guys, I'm lost. Did I do the right thing?

Just remember that anything you write can be read by a judge regarding a divorce. Let the experts guide you here but she wants a letter from you?

What's that all about? Is she in a frame of mind that a letter will help her understand you and your motives? Or is it just something she will hold up against you. Is this a demand on her part? Do you want to write a letter to her? What if you said, no letter right now, we can talk about anything you want to talk about.
Lake

That's not surprising...



You're assuming that WSs have the ability to reason. Nope. If so, they wouldn't be WSs....



Uh-huh....

I suggest go ahead and write her the letter and explain the reasons why you're doing what you're doing. Don't expect her to understand though.

More importantly, set yourself a timetable for this activity. Plan A is not something you should be doing forever.

hd...I'm back from vacation. Looks like you are in the right frame of mind to go to war to save your marriage, and leave the excuses for inactivity in your wake <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Good!

One of the biggest mistakes we as BS make is to expect a reasonable and logical reaction from a WS. It's just not possible, hence the terms fog and alien. In their world of addiction, every thought is fueled with keeping full access to the drug that gives them their fix, that being the OM. Every move you make that may result in her losing access to the OM is VERY threatening to her, and she'll react more like a cornered animal than the W you used to know.

Keep any letter to her short and succinct. Bullet points. I'd leave out any "I love you's". Right now, your love for her is an annoyance, as it causes her guilt, so she ignores that fact.

Post what you write here before you send it, and folks here will eliminate any minefield words or phrases.

Lastly, expect no HONOR from the OM. Typically they're incapable of stepping up and doing the right thing. Your W is desperate to keep the DRUG (OM) in her life and will do anything she thinks will help do so.

Focus on you and the things you need to be doing in this battle. Likewise, do not get caught in the trap of feeling a need to react to everything she does or says, as that will keep you running in circles. Put little hope or value to her words or deeds until you see that there is merit to them.

Hang in there...it's a rough ride!

SD

((hd))

The sense of entitlement that WS's have and the fog that spews from them would almost be amusing...if it weren't for all the collateral damage that their choices cause.

Hang in there-you are making her fantasyland very uncomfortable.

Your reason for doing what you are doing:

You expect and deserve fidelity from your wife and the mother of your children. It is too painful to accept any less. You are devoting your undivided attention to make this work because your family is your number one priority.

That is all you need to put in the letter. Don't answer the question again. You don't need to answer to a WS.

I personally believe the note would be a waste of time. Your WW knows what she is doing is wrong. This is just another ploy to manipulate you.

Btw, do not quit your job. That is definitely not necessary to save your M, if it’s salvable.