I told my husband that I could stand living the way we are, that I am preparing for separation in the fall by making the most of a part-time job which could turn into a fairly well-paying full-time job.

He had a number of reactions -
I have tried everything.
Nothing I do will make you happy.
I hate your f***ing guts.

I look back at the five years since the affair was exposed and think -- what a waste.

I told him that the door is closing but it is still open. I said I am willing to sit down with him and develop our own program, agree on behavior each month that would help our marriage -- as my IC said, "Build on small successes." He asked what I wanted, and I told him ideally going through the MB program. He thought that was a demand, and I said it wasn't. I'm open to lots of things, and I want him to want to do whatever it is we agree on. For example, Harley's program is 15 hours per week alone together, and I'd be happy to start with four hours per month.

His response tonight? I don't think it would work, and I don't think it's worth the effort.

Translation: I won't do anything.

My next question was: What are you going to do?

His response: I don't know. I'm thinking about it.

He's been thinking about it for five years. Why wouldn't he be thinking about it for years to come?

How sad for this to have dragged on for so long. How I regret the last five years. I thought I could coerce care, and I couldn't. As a wise priest said to me, "He can change. You can't change him."

Cherishing

Last I remember, I understood that you had moved out. Did you move back in or am I the one who misunderstood?

LA

No, I didn't move out. We separated only in September and October of 2002. It wasn't a true Plan B.

We aren't separated now. I'm just preparing for it. As the children get older, and I return to work, it becomes easier to consider living on my own and being able to manage financially. But it is sad. I didn't marry him for financial security. I married him because I was in love with him.

And literally the day we married he turned on me. Fifteen years and four kids later, I finally face the fact that there may be nothing I can do or say that will turn this situation around. He has to want to change, and instead he tells me "I'm not the problem. You are." He does not see the need to change. In fact, he told me that he said "I hate your f***ing guts" because I provoked him -- and he broke my arm because I wouldn't listen and he had an affair because I didn't care about him and she did.

Cherishing

He is unlikely to change, because he doesn't have to. Too bad.

OT - DesireWisdom wanted me to tell you she is doing okay. She stopped posting because WH was reading here. She was looking for your email, but it wasn't there. The Harley's are really helping her - acting as intermediaries.

Believer,
I'm glad DesireWisdom is doing well. I feel for her. When I was in that position five years ago, a friend of mine spent a long time trying to convince me to plan on a long separation. I didn't because I thought I could change, I took responsibility for his affair.

What you said, believer, about how he doesn't have to change is true. He can decide that I wouldn't forgive him or I expected too much or I was abusive. Another thing that the IC told me, that has stuck with me, is this: "Let him have his excuses."

Cherishing

Thank you for clearing me up...I think I got that from the separate for your marriage thread awhile back.

LA

I was wondering what was up with DesireWisdom.

We planned April, and he seemed to take seriously my saying that the door was closing. We agreed to snuggle in the morning and give each other one positive and one negative per night. It's certainly not Harley's program of 15 hours per week, but it is time alone. The idea is to build on April's successes in May and on May's in June and so on.

I keep on thinking that my unconditional commitment to marriage gave him license to do what he pleased without regard for any consequence. Now my unconditional commitment is to the sacrament of marriage and not to living with this person and following the Biblical "Love endures all". I've endured enough. A willingness to live together has conditions.

DesireWisdom: Take your time in letting your husband back into your life. I was too eager, too willing, and the man I got back was willing to blame me for his affair and even told me that if he had a second affair, I'd have to forgive him for that one, too. My reactions were nothing short of angry outbursts as I tried to convince him that he was wrong to think that the only problems in our marriage were my lack of commitment and unwillingness to forgive. Now I realize that the only decision that I have is whether to live with him. Five years ago, my decision was to continue living with him and try to change him. That didn't work. It just perpetuated my belief that an unconditional commitment to living together is in the marriage vows. It isn't.

Cherishing

Cherishing,

U R again settling for crumbs and that is all he is willing to give you. Even that you have to fight for. Is it really worth it?

Plan B is the way to go.

You know that since H came back and started his recovery (I say start because I believe he isn't done yet - <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ), I have given him more reasons to leave than B4 the A. WHAT?!?!?!
I am NOT the perfect W no more than he is the perfect H so there. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> What this shows to me is that his reasons for the A were just a facade (excuse if you will) to hide the real reason (selfish desire). Once that selfish desire was killed (yes, I believe in capital punishment - death to the WS 'tude' <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> ), then even if the same reasons really came out, H would stay. Not out of obligation only but for real love, the kind the A can't give.

This is where I believe the BS has power and should use it. Not cower. If your H can't give you an answer you make your conclusion and STOP giving him chances. Right now he knows you will cave and allow him to continue as is so why should he blow that lifestyle? It suits the WS still in him.

Like my then WS told me....he w/b a WS as long as I allowed him in my life as one. Boy was that an eye opener. When I started cutting the WS out of our lives (see the WS taught us that we COULD and did learn to live without him), then the WS lost his power. Good lesson.

Think about it, act on it..... no more talk and no more chances. The door shouldn't be open anymore. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

JMHO,
L.

Orchid,
I hear you. It's completely a practical decision. I have four kids, now ages 6-13, and I want them to have one more summer just enjoying the pool and biking with me rather than with a teenage nanny.

I let him know that I am preparing to separate in the fall unless something changes. Last night, there wasn't much I wanted. I told him that whatever we agree on needs to be consistent.

If we separate, I think I'm going to make it a year no matter what. I regret the choices I have made, but at least now I am facing that I had choices that I made. I had the power to choose to accept him in my life and try to change him, or accept him in my life and live with whatever he did, or separate. Before he had the A, I accepted whatever he did. After the affair, I tried to change him. Both choices were dead ends. Now I realize what I can do is give honest information and see what he does.

Cherishing

Try giving him info with only some timelines (the important ones). As he SEES you move forward he will wonder what else you have planned and him using his gray cells to wonder is important to help him see where he is really at.

That is what I had t/d with my then WS. He had to see me move forward because he had slipped one time and told me he w/b forever a WS if I allowed it. YUCK!!! Guess what? I no longer was going t/b forced to play a game I didn't choose to be in. I pulled out of the triangle and began to move forward....was doing quite well actually....then guess who missed who.... LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

L.

Removed because it probably isn't helpful.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Cherising

Same old ****...just different day.

I haven't visited this site in quite a while, but I came on today, read your post and shook my head in amazement. Anyone with even a few minutes of time could look up your posts from the previous 3 years and would NOT be able to tell one from the other.

You get what you pay for girl.....

"garbage in..garbage out".....

I am simply amazed that you would still be here literally in the same place you were 3 years ago trying to "coerce" this man. 15 hours a week????? Now you are bargaining for 4 hours a month?????

You will be 100% guilty when your daughter grows up and seeks the kind of man that your husband is. You have given her a blueprint of how she should expect her life to be.

You say you can stand things till the fall.....before you know it, you will be saying Christmas...then New Year...then we'll be right back here on April Fools Day 2008...repeating this stuff.

Come on now......

Lem

LM-
My 7 year old daughter calls me a "softie", and perhaps I am. What I'm doing is preparing to be in the position to separate. In other words, I got a part-time job, and it will be easy to turn that into a full-time job in the fall. It's a start.

Cherishing

OK, LM, I did a search on a post from 3 years ago. This one is from three years ago today:

"He says that he is doing all the work because he is trying to meet my emotional needs and I'm not meeting his. His number one need is for admiration. I don't admire him.

His number two need is for sexual fulfillment. We started having sex again in January but he said it's not that important because sex is a drive for him and masturbation takes care of it.

Harley's program seems to address the root issue of anger which is a tendency to think in terms of win-lose solutions. He's even said, "If you win, I lose.""

Point taken.

You said you were remarrying. I was friends with someone who was divorced and remarried, and I once asked her why she divorced. She said she came home early from a business trip and found evidence of an affair. She asked no questions -- just moved out and filed for divorce -- and six months later her husband called to tell her he'd made a big mistake. She said that she would never trust him again. She was happily remarried when I knew her.

For religious reasons, I do not have the choice of remarriage unless my husband dies. There's good and bad to that. The good is you give it all you got. The bad is you might hope when there is no cause for hope.

I'm not trying to coerce anymore. That was BS fog. You were good at pointing out BS fog to me and others.

Having realized I cannot succeed in coercing, I recognize that I need to set standards for living together and be willing to separate if those standards are not met. That's why I started with a baby step. He seems willing for now to take a baby step.

Whatever may come of these baby steps, I'm always going to keep myself in the position to separate. I think a big problem I had was he had an affair when I was most vulnerable, a stay at home Mom with four children under age 7. Now the youngest is in kindergarten, and I no longer hold the belief that my marriage vows mean I must tolerate whatever he does. Separation can be a virtuous choice.

I appreciate your feedback. Check in in another year. I'm not posting as much anymore, I'm not going to therapy as much anymore... things seems to be getting clearer for me. My beliefs were a kind of prison. I was in so much pain because I felt as though my only choice was to coerce him because otherwise I had to choose between treatment that I considered intolerable and leaving him, which I considered to be against my values. It's been a long and difficult process to realize that a willingness to separate can be consistent with a belief in the permanence of marriage.

Cherishing

I talked with my IC earlier this week. I've seen her 130 or so times since 11/01, which was two months after the affair began, the month before the broken arm, and six months before D-day. She thinks the situation is utterly hopeless as far as a turnaround to the marriage but that I need to go through a process of facing the facts. I still have hope but know that I will have nothing but grief unless I seriously am prepared to separate by the fall.

Here is what I wrote on another post on 4/12:

The whole point of marriage is that it is a commitment of care. You shouldn't have to compete with any other person for your husband's care. You shouldn't have to put up with abuse or infidelity or neglect.

It's not the BS's fault.

My husband has told me many times that I'm not committed and if I'm not committed this is never going to work. I've struggled with that, thinking I need to be committed. Now I'm very clear in my response -- you're right I'm not committed. My willingness to live with you is dependent on your behavior.

I want to feel cherished. I won't settle for less. I look back with deep regret at not having left the hotel room where we spent our wedding night and found other accomodations. Had I made it clear immediately that I would not put up with disrespect, I would not have had it all these years.

On Saturday, he said "F*** you" to me. I've heard those words countless times before. Now I remove myself from him. There is absolutely no point in arguing with him about how he treats me. The only thing I can do is remove myself from him when he treats me badly. He was so nasty to me on Sunday that I said I wouldn't go to his brother's house for Easter dinner. I think he was surprised. It was just too much for me. I did go to Easter dinner when he was conciliatory, and he's been nice to me since then.

Foolish me. I think my whole problem has hinged on an understanding of the word commitment. To me, commitment used to mean that I needed to accept him as he was and forgive him when he hurt me. Now it no longer means that I have to put up with whatever the other person dishes out. To me, it now means that I won't remarry. To me, the commitment to the vow of marriage is permanent no matter what the circumstances. I can withdraw. I can separate. I can divorce. The door will be open to reconciliation if I don't remarry.

I've told him that, if things don't improve by fall, I'm asking for a separation, and I'll make it a minimum of one year.

It's simply not the fault of the BS if the WS doesn't cherish you. It's a failure on the WS's part to fulfill the marriage vow of loving, cherishing, and being faithful. Commitment is a commitment of care, not a commitment to tolerate abuse, neglect and/or infidelity.

Cherished

An update of sorts. He was in St. Louis last week. He's in Chicago this week. One of our children has First Communion this Saturday. The end of the month is Sunday. He doesn't think he'll have time to come up with ideas for what behavior changes we might consider making for May.

MarriageBuilders Lite highlights what he wants to do. And he doesn't want to change. He said to me very recently, "I'm not the problem. You are." Yes, my problem is I'm not willing to accept him as he is.

Coming up on six years ago now, he told me what happened on the day that the OW propositioned him. His response to her was No because of "Duty. Honor. Commitment." There was no "I care about my wife." Eventually his sense of duty and honor and commitment became that he could do what he pleased and I wouldn't find out and so it wouldn't affect me.

I married a man with a sense of commitment but no sense of care.

LM, you were right.

Cherished

Cherished,

So ask him....if you were to do to him as he is treating you, would he like t/b in that kind of R for life? Would that make him happy?

I had to give that speech to mine because when he decided he wanted back, at first I agreed. Then I regretted, then took out plan B and whacked him up side his head and send him out the door.

Once I realized we weren't important enough for him to show concern or care, there went my tolerance for him. I no longer choose to put myself out for his sake. He knows it.

When he makes the effort, so will I. Not very MB like but it was a lesson t/b learned. Mine is a slow learner and it took time. When I finally gave him the speech about him being on the receiving end of his behavior, he got the pix. I told him (RB'd <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) that I would try HARD to be as inconsiderate as he was with us. Wasn't going t/b easy for me since that's not in my nature but I was going to give it my dernest. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Boy he sure didn't want us to treat him like he had been treating us..... no siree. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Therein lay my reverse babble. The more he tried to manipulate the tighter that noose got. I showed him the door and said I had no more tears for a WS. He was welcome to leave so all his previous threats where thrown in the garbage. He learned.

I did not threaten. In fact in some cases, I just did (I meand didn't do) much. Learned t/d less and that got me more. Crazy? But it worked. Even let his laundry get reall near full.... he was wondering where his next clean clothes were coming from. That caught his attention.

Yes I loved him but not enough t/b used and abused. I told him so. Since I don't threaten, he knew that he had t/d his part to maintain an valued member status. No more free rides. He lost our original trust. I was not about to freely hand it out t/b taken advantage of again.

JMHO,
L.

Yes, my problem is I'm not willing to accept him as he is.

True...you aren't.

I married a man with a sense of commitment but no sense of care.

That is exactly why YOU are still married to him. You have said it many times. YOU have a sense of commitment and continue to subject your children to a dysfunctional household.

Pardon my bluntness.

committed