I'm not liking him going to that THINGY away from YOU..early in RECOVERY....

Maybe I'm way off base...

But it did not work that way for US...

I'd be worried about him gone sooo long...

AND are there ANY WOMEN there???

That sounds soooo HIGH SCHOOLISH..hanging out with GUYS on the weekend...

Mimi, just not FEELING this... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I think I'd ask him if he HAD to go..because I would be MISSING HIM and LONELY for him..

Aren't you going to be?

Are you letting him ASSUME that his presence is not that important you?

I made the mistake of letting my H ASSUME that the boys were MORE IMPORTANT to me..he became accustomed to that..while NOT liking it..wanting to remain MY BOYFRIEND..that started years and years ago..but that SET THE STAGE FOR DISASTER...

Mimi

We do differ in opinion on this a bit. This is something PWC has been in to for many years; since I met him; it's very serious to these guys, and I support him. As for being gone for half of Sunday, I don't have a problem with that. Never have. I can do the things that he has no interest in while he is gone (like house cleaning and laundry), and when he comes home, we can have drinks and talk about his engine swap. We do spend 95% of our free time together (after work--we both work full time). I don't want you left with the impression that he is gone every weekend. He is not, and he wants me with him when he does go away. He told me this.

I am not letting him assume that his presence is not important to me, I have stressed how much and when and how I want him around; he knows what we need to do for recovery and is doing it.

His friends wife will be there, as the garage is on their land. I know her well, she knows my sitch, her H works with my H.

It sounded like a whole weekend thing..

Sorry.

We do differ, too and that's GREAT..

Makes life interesting...

My H NEVER did that kind of stuff...

The good part is that it sounds like you are certainly handling RECOVERY better than I did...honestly, it would have bothered me if he chose to be gone that long at that time...

I just sent an email to PWC to remark on our conversation here; it's funny, I take conversations from here to him and we discuss them, and now we're laughing (over email) and talking about dinner.

See Mimi, every discussion here opens up the door to more conversation at home. It allows me to see if we are on the right track, to see if any red flags go up for me, so thank you for mulling this over with me.

I also remarked to PWC that the great things are the differences between folks--we can't all be the same--where's the fun in that?

Hey SL when do you plan on changing your sig line?????

Has he earned the F yet??

I like your attitude. I could use some down time come to think of it.

I hope you have a great weekend.

Both my H and are OCD.

Anything GREASY like that would probably push him straight over the edge....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yep..people are different...

OMG Mimi, that's hilarious!

Frog, always catchin' my mistakes. I actually meant to change that when I was changing my sig line yesterday. Must be FORMER BS thinking... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Ah, and Chrisner, I caught the remark, just didn't feel it needed much justification. I do love to make a point!

Lately, things seem to be sailing a bit more smoothly. PWC has been slowly, and at interesting times, bringing up the past, just during conversation or something.

Last night, he was talking to DS about his attitude when asked to do something. DS kept talking back, or talking over PWC. I then chimed in to tell DS to listen and not talk over his dad, then I raised my voice and repeated it. PWC told me to let him handle it. WHOOPS! There I go again, sticking my foot in my mouth, taking over, running roughshod over him. He asked me to stop; I apologized.

PWC gave DS a bath, and afterwards, came back to talk to me about taking over. Told me that he didnt' appreciate it. I apologized again, and reminded him that I AM working on it. I, truly, got used to parenting DS on my own, even during the long false recovery, I was still running the show, PWC was off in Waywardville.

After this, he reminded me that I said that he was a BAD DAD, which I know I did when he left the first time, and I know I did when he moved in with Aimless and wanted DS to be in that environment. At the time, I believed he was making bad decisions. I told PWC that, at the time, I stood by what I was saying, MY OPINION. He said that he IS NOT a bad dad, that he ALWAYS believed that he was good. I can't say that I agree that he always had DS's best interest in mind when making decisions about his extracurricular activities. How could he?

I apologized for my statments hurting him, but said that I could not take back what I said, and that, at the time, MY OPINION of him was low, on all counts, across the board. I cannot change that. I STILL believe that his actions were very selfish, very self-serving, and our DS's welfare was never HEAVILY considered. I don't know if I will ever be able to change that, or see it differently.

In the end, PWC decided that HE must be the one to approve of his parenting, whether I agreed or not. I told him that it was very important that he build confidence in himself (part of personal recovery, for ME). I repeated that I DID believe what I said, when I said it. I told him that NOW, I do SEE that he is a good day; he has a level of patience that I do not possess, and I appreciate that.

I'm finding that many of our discussions revolve around our DS. I'm beginning to see that he did not feel like a part of the family, as I was doing EVERYTHING. I also still see some justification, or dismissive behavior when it comes to the impact his affairs and leaving has had on his family. I'm saddened by this, but hope that his view changes in time, after full withdrawal, not just from OW, but from the lifestyle.

If I am wrong, especially these days, I appreciate the 2x4, so, that being said, swing away. I would be happy to find a way toward forgiveness for these crimes against his family, but I am obviously not there yet (hint, hint, when he was talking about him being a good dad, the anger rose in me, ready to pounce on him--I kept it at bay and listened, BUT, I'm still not happy that he doesn't recognize the damage that he caused to OTHERS)

I think you have high-lighted one of the flaws in Plan FU, or even in any conversations with the wayward in which you are trying to educate them. Telling him that he was a bad dad was love-busting (that it was true, and that it was something anyone would have done doesn't matter, of course), and it penetrated through the fog enough to stick. There are reverberations.

I don't see anything wrong in what you did. I certainly don't think you should have lied to him, or coddled him. I think, however, that I would try to avoid these kinds of conversations for a while, or at least don't hit him with both barrels. There's some lingering fog, and it's going to take him a while to get to where he can see things objectively again. Try to give him that time.


I SO hear you on this, but this is one of those things that takes more time than we want it to. I think. But I'm obviously no expert. I'll be interested to hear what more experienced types have to say.

SL,

No 2x4 here just incouragment(sp)


In time if he changes and becomes a wonderful father you will. The FWS needs to work to reestablish that.

You called it like it was. He was being a horrible father. IMVHO.The reason I say that is that it is a parents job to not just speak what is right and wrong but to show that as well.

In the end would he want someone treating your Son like he treated you and your son?

I had the same issue with my FWW regarding these things. I just asked her point blank "Do you think you were being a good mother when you.....?" Simple yes and no questions. Of course she didn't think she was. So my statment that you were a horrible mother should have been confined to that action of yours. I will never change my opinion that at that time you were a horrible parent. I don't think overall that you are a horrible parent.


I can empathize with you. My FWW is the same way. Today she mentioned not seeing her family in 4 years. That when she mentions her family I don't like it. She made it seem like I forbade her from going back.

Now the truth is I didn't want her to for a while. Then the finances were such a mess from her last trip we couldn't afford it.

I told her that was the effect of her actions not mine.

I now just speak matter of factly about those things.

If she wants to blame shift or minimize I just let her know that is what I think she is doing.

At this point it is what it is. The damage is done. Realize that and try to fix the damage you caused.

The more she minimizes the less I trust her and I let her know that.

Thenks for the response Guy Smiley,

I told PWC, last night, that what I thought of him then was lettered with ANGER, RESENTMENT, and DEVASTATION. I do not feel that way NOW. When I said those things to him, I meant them. I would think of DS growing up without a 100% dad around, and it saddened me FOR DS, not for me, so much, and my comments came from a place of safeguarding DS, not me. I took all the hits, full force, head on.

Now, I see PWC making an effort to not only play with our son, but to discipline him (this is where I keep bullying things--and I AM WORKING ON IT). Not an excuse, but a reason is that I grew used to being there when DS was making all of the mistakes. I was ever present when DS started having problems in daycare when he was three, during PWC's first affair, after he left. DS had major anger issues, pushing other kids down, talking back, crying jags for no reason--it seemed like he was breaking down. Even when PWC was there the last couple of years, I was spending the time bathing and feeding and parenting and disciplining, in general. PWC was still working later hours, going out with his friends, and when home, basically going off by himself, leaving me to it. I cannot change the dynamic that WAS at that time, nor the reality of that dynamic.

PWC remembers the things I said, but I don't know if he remembers his family life being lived without him, not for lack of inviting him; HECK, it was his family--His choice was to not try, my choice was to chastize him for it. I'm no longer that person NOW, but I cannot reverse the course of things, like Superman, they happened.

I cannot give praise to a father that leaves, and his MAIN concern is the OW and himself. I just don't think I will ever change my mind about that. I'm not saying that I cannot change my mind about PWC being a good dad, my opinion NOW is that he is. I don't even know if this is MY issue to deal with.

MY issue is taking over when he is in the midst of parenting our DS. I do need to learn to recognize, before opening my mouth, that I am even thinking of interrupting . It is disrespectful and undermines him. I agree that this is a problem for me.

I resemble this remark. I can soooo see where I did and do this to H/WH. (I'm still waiting for him to see his piece also...)

No advice or kudos (that'd be enabling <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />) but just know.....I HEAR YA!

Frog, I thought you might come along. Thanks for checking in.

I can change my opinion of PWC NOW, but MY opinion of his actions THEN will always remain the same. I don't think spending every other weekend and one dinner a week is good enough. THe time that PWC spent with him may have been quality, I'll grant that. I was there every day, listening to my son's pain, daily. I'm not even exaggerating, DAILY, missing his father, questioning me about why he'd gone, if he would come back, wishing he would come back. It pissed me off! It's hard to forget the pain of your child, and the accompanying guilt. On top of it all, there was nothing I could do to change it; it had to be his dad. His son wanted him home, and there was nothing that I could do, or I was doing all that I could.

Fox, I figured this was part of you dynamic at home, too; that is part of the reason I've been talking to you about your sitch; I KNOW where you are coming from.

I see where I am going wrong with bullying everybody; I do need to step back. I really just do not like it when PWC talks about a subject without including the living situation we were in at the time that I was telling him that he was a bad person. HE WAS.

He hurt his family, he hurt me, he did not make any effort to AVOID the A's; in fact, he said straight to my face that he WANTED to FALL IN LOVE with OW, he was happy. He sounded like a teenager, bucking his parents (probably because I was acting like his MOM--I've worked on this TOO)

I'm not angry with him for stating his truth last night, and, again, I state that I apologized if I HURT HIM, but that, at the time, the statements were true to me. The statements are still true, when placed in the right context. You cannot come home, begin to make changes, and expect that the past will not apply to you. The past is a cautionary tale, there to remind you of your mistakes and help you to recognize your errors. *I* do recognize mine, I just don't know if PWC is there yet. I don't really even know if he thinks his past actions were mistakes; he may never, it is then up to me to figure out if I can live with that.

PWC can think and feel however he thinks and feels, I must act accordingly, and in accordance with what I believe. If this never changes, who knows. If I hurt someone, I feel remorse; even over breakups in non marital relationships, I still feel remorse, for my part in causing that person tremendous pain, probably because I still cared. But, that's me; I'm not him.

It's early yet, in the recovery ride.

Hey, no argument, SL. He WAS being a bad father. In my last conversation with the SCQ, I'm pretty sure I either insinuated or told her outright that she's being a bad mother (I can remember saying "Just keep telling yourself that."). Was I right? Yes. Was it helpful for me to say that? No.

You're right, you're right, you're right. You are. But don't expect him to see it for a while. He filled up your Anger Bank, and now it's leaking out from time to time. I think I would try to bring the bulk of it here and only give him glimpses.


This gives you something to think about and work on during recovery. Recovery is hard. It's all hard.

You're still my role model.

SL,

Exactly. Call a spade a spade. Many people talk about the A as an addicition.

Do you think any other addict would say they were a good parent while they were addicted? Heck no.

At the time of my FWW's A she was a horrible, horrible mother.

Your FWH made a decesion to act a certain way and you had an opinion of that. I think most people opinion would mirror yours.

So you stated your opinion, which at the time was "you are a horrible father".

Now I would assume your opinion is changing based on his current actions. I HOPE you are giving him that chance?

So yesterday my FWW was acting not nice. I told her you are not acting nice. I didn't say she wasn't nice. I said you are not acting nice.

Big difference. I would maybe try to make that point.

At the time you were not a good father, nothing you can say or do will ever change that belief.

You could actually say to him "I believe today you are a good, great, or whatever father."


You must stop doing this though. You are not the ultimate authority no matter what.

I would say if it continues to be a problem you should maybe leave the room before you talk.

My FWW does this and it has caused lot's of problems.

I think it's GOOD NEWS that he is being so OPEN AND HONEST with you. Try to LISTEN to him so that he will feel comfortable in continuing this.

Don't you think he's saying that he wants to hear that you do not think that he is a BAD DAD, in general?



That man thing again..wanting his WOMAN to BELIEVE in him...



Focus on YOUR WORK, SL..not what you think that HE NEEDS to do..

Did you know that this was the main thing that I had to get across to my husband during PLAN A..that he felt like he was not a part of the family..that I DISRESPECTED and DISREGARDED him..I found in talking to STEVE that this is a VERY PAINFUL issue for MEN...

Another BOOK RECOMMENDATION coming..LOVE AND RESPECT..this book was eye-opening and life-changing to me..A MAN DOES NOT FEEL LOVED BY A WOMAN WHO DOES NOT RESPECT HIM...

In order to do RECOVERY, you have to be able to FORGIVE HIM FOR THE PAST..move on into the FUTURE..RESPECT HIM FOR THE FATHER HE IS NOW..let him know that you will no longer DISRESPECT HIM...



Disregard HIS VIEW..FOCUS ON YOUR OWN CHANGE...Make it CLEAR that you understand the importance to him of being a GOOD father...he hanging his HEART out to you..GOOD FOR HIM..expressing some TENDER FEELINGS...



You're in trouble, SL..I'd like to help you change this mindset..cause this has to be ALL ABOUT YOU and YOUR CHANGES...cause you can only change yourself...

I know that I am ways ahead of you but I still slip into SOME of my OLD PATTERNS and when my H tells me about that stuff, a part of me wants to make him change his point of view...

But that is DISRESPECTFUL...I immediately make a point of letting him know that I hear him, although I may not agree, I HEAR AND UNDERSTAND HIM and will do my best to make him happy with me..

THE MORE THAT I DO THE ABOVE..THE MORE HE DOES THE SAME...

I'm saying that you can lead..you can be the example for him...but you can't FORCE HIM TO SEE THE LIGHT...or tell him how he needs to see things...

Am I making sense?

mimi,

makes perfect sense. I recognize that leading by example is the best route, and I will do so. I have been doing pretty well at that, but old patterns die hard. I'll get there, I just need you guys to point out where I derailed, and you have.

I let my feelings get hurt by THINKING that PWC doesn't recognize the damage his A's caused; he may recognize this, and this is his way of remedying the sitch, by communicating his fears and his anger.

I need to start using the mantra "I appreciate your honesty". I also am going to work on recognizing that his intent is NOT to hurt me, but to convey his truth, his reality.

These are pretty tough dynamics to break, so it will be slow going, but I've already made progress. Thanks to all.