Thanks Frog,

I have been doing more of the SEDUCTION type stuff since we had our DS, just not often enough. I have some good ideas, and am looking forward to trying them out. I like the analogy of being a present. That makes a girl feel pretty good to know that.

About the conversation, we really just talked about music and movies, about our families, about friends; mostly, though, quite literally just start talking about nothing, and the conversation would evolve from there. Luckily, some things never change, that still applies. I just have to talk about a lot of nothing, and wait for the conversation to guide itself. It's breaking the ice that is nerve wracking. That's okay, it's one small step for Marriage...

Ice breaker,

How was your day.
How about those Yankees(insert other team if for some reason he is not a yankee fan.)
Anything out of Peculiar Postings on MSNBC. Like hey did you see the story about the three people arrested for riding their bikes naked. (that cannot feel good) Insert any comment about their seats you would like to.

ICE CAUSERS,
Penny for your thoughts.
What are you thinking about.
Is something bothering you.
I noticed you are......

It is a process. Ever evolving, ever changing.

We are never the same person we were yesterday. YOu are changing and growing.

I too get frustrated with the FWW but you know she does her things her way.

To me this is a journey, I am not really entirely sure yet that at the end of it I will still be married to my FWW because I can't predict the future.

I can change myself and the way that I do things to hopefully make that happen but she needs to as well.

You are doing great and check out peculiar postings they are funny as heck.

I either need to stop reading this thread or take more cold showers.

Not that I'm not really happy for you, mind you. . . .

Stop reading = bad; cold showers = good.

If you guys think the things I'm doing in the bedroom (or wherever we may be) are good, then I'm on the right track.

Frog, I'm definitely more of an Ice breaker these days, not an Ice causer. I ask about his day, listen, insert anecdote of my own; shake my head, yeah, uh-huh, that sux, whatever, laugh. No serious talk.

So far, from what y'all are saying, I'm going along okay. I feel pretty good today, so that's one less thing...

SL:

Happy 10th Anniversary!

Now forget the date.

Your H, just like me, Pi$$ed all over it....

Celebrate something else.

How long since PWC returned? 4 weeks, 6 weeks, 8 weeks? Celebrate that day.

Flamingo and I celebrate D-day.

Why?

Because it was the day that we were BOTH released.

We celebrate the 4th of every month. And next month it will be 2 years. And we will be in Oregon, and will celebrate there.

We celebrate with a special bottle of wine that we both like, and I have purchased enough for the next year.

Our 17th wedding anniversary passed on May 19th. In-laws sent a card, but otherwise, it was an unremarkable day in our house.

Triggers diminish over time, to be replaced by better memories.

Frog has an interesting point about the seduction and seduceing part.

Shows anticipation on your part to be with US.

The opposite side is that us guys need to be attractive as well to you.

It's amazing how good the SF can be when I have been working around the house and taking care of things....

I meet her EN for domestic support and family committment and it's go time BABY!

However... In this case, your ready to go, and he is the one who is less than enthusiastic. (much like Mrs. Frog) There is some emotional distance that both PWC and Mrs Frog need to travel. (Mrs Frog has had a longer time to travel, has yet to really make many of the steps, and I will cease comment on Mrs Frog because I am not as knowledgeable about her sitch) Mimi describes it, even Pep and Mel talk about how the nature of the SF has changed since recovery has really occured.

That's why I keep mentioning Steve Harley, or the MB weekend.

If PWC wants you, and thinks that because he is here, and your not talking about it, that this too shall pass, he is wrong.

He needs to step up now. There are very simple life changes he can make to improve the overall tenor and feel of this relationship. 90% of PWC stays around, but that final 10%? That's what needs to change. The climate for discussion about problems, SF, just hanging out, changes. It doesn't mean that Flamingo and I do not argue, cuz we still do, but we have other tools, we never knew about or understood to avoid creating the long simmering and buried issues that explode a M.

Some of this is just that someone else is telling him something that he already knows, but because it is coming from on unbiased individual, he will be more receptive to the message. And more likely to want to implement the changes.

SL: you may have many questions about where he was to succumb to an A. Of what he was thinking and doing while in the middle of the A, or you might not really care about alot of that. PWC needs to know. SH and/or MB W/E will give PWC the skills to start talking about this, and the vocabulary needed to properly discuss it in a non-judgemental manner. (Hence my earlier post about discussing the past.)

And if PWC has fallen relatively silent, then that is troubling. Because HE DOES have alot to say, he just doesn't know how to get it out....

How bout them O's? Should they trade Millar or Tejeda? Is always a good start. But talking about the garden is a great place to start.

(FROG: Please no more Reference to those "darn Yankees!"

SL: You and I could probably trade stories about basic training, and military time, plus Private Benjamin!

Go there with common history like that with PWC.

You might have alot of success with that.

LG

Hot Showers= Really good!

I agree with LG. I would have loved to have had a buffer (if you will) for DH and I to have "those" conversations. We basically just flew by the seat of our pants on getting things back on track. The MB W/E sounds like a wonderful idea!

Hot soapy showers with lights out and candles burning = Super good!

LG, How do I talk to him about talking to Steve? I don't want to put fear of ME in place of any ground that I've made. Do I tell him that I've noticed him becoming more silent, and I know someone who could help? PWC did mention getting counseling, saying that he thought WE needed it.

I truly think, that if we follow MB, and he can have at least ONE session with Steve, to help him, we could move further forward. It's early yet, I know, but it feels like he's stalling a bit. It does feel like he is directionless. If he had some help to work his way through HIS problems, he may feel more relief. It seems like fear is creeping in on him, and I feel for him, I really do, but fear is your worst enemy.

If you have suggestions on how to bring the subject up, I would love to hear them. I want PWC to feel safe if I bring this up.

SL: you may have many questions about where he was to succumb to an A. Of what he was thinking and doing while in the middle of the A, or you might not really care about alot of that. PWC needs to know.

Oh, about this. I don't think much on what he was thinking, I feel for him, I honestly do, but I don't want to get inside his head. I just want him to feel comfortable again, safe, as you have said. I want him to know that building bridges, instead of walls, is what I am trying to do. I am giving him NO reason to believe that I'm trying to HAMSTRING him; I am loving, giving, smiling, pretty goofy again. Sometimes, I have to ACT a bit, but beneath it all, I really do feel better. I just want for him to have the same opportunity.

Coming back to this M probably raises so much fear in him, of entrapment, of unhappiness, of WORK. I have faced many of those fears, and KNOW that we create this all in our own minds, with our own actions. If I give, and create a positive environment, I can, my marriage can, my child can THRIVE.

Fear is a hope killer, fear is a depressing thing, fear will beat you down until you become a believer.

SL:

How to bring it up?

First off, I don't want you to get stuck.

HE does feel like you just posted: "Coming back to this M probably raises so much fear in him, of entrapment, of unhappiness, of WORK."

What has been done to disperse this?

Much of it has to come from him. You know the MB principles, and you can apply them, in conversation, interactions, and how you react to them.

Your getting the 15 hours a week right?

Time to set aside hour 16 and go to relationship talk time. For one hour a week.

Start complimenting him on the specfic behaviors that you recognize in him that are different, and better, than he was pre A.

With DS.
Around the house.
About how difficult the road is that he is on.

And then just move forward from there.

HE might realize from some of this that you do need SH to get this ship moving faster.

You dropping hints like I survived the past year because of what I learned at MB, and his prior good experiences with it, may be all thats needed.
The ORlando MB W/E is Oct 26/27. That might be a good time to go.

The MB W/E itself is about 1k, and the hotel will run $400, but the drive each way, if you got a fuel efficent vehicle will be about $200. Food and other stuff, or an extra day, will cost all told about $2k.

Less than you might really think.

We went two months after dday. It gave us something to focus on, as I signed up about 5-6 days after dday. (we we lucky, it was in Philly)

IL's watched the kiddo while we were gone.

By focus, it gave us the freedom to read/learn about MB, and also know that some of the things would be addressed when we got to the Weekend.

Just a thought.

Motarman went, and it REALLY helped his wife, and they were 14-15 months into recovery. Another poster named DesireWisdom(?) got her WH, who was still deep in his A to go, and about 3 weeks later, her H returned, and although DW hasn't posted recently, seems to have turned the corner.

Both of these folks are bracketing where you and PWC are. And they had a good experience. So, I'm still plugging it.

SL:

You have been "I am loving, giving, smiling, pretty goofy again" SL. He knows it, (Hey, fake it till you make it!), but there is reason to start expecting more from him. At least one hour a week.

One hour is safe as well.

PWC doesn't want a bad relationship with you, he just wants one that works. Like we all do. But there's no map for it yet. So, you need to pull one out occasionlly that shows the way home.

LG

Thanks LG, I will work on this tomorrow. I'll have to look into MB weekend. We are really financially icky right now, but I'll look into it none the less. I would rather save my M right now.

I wanted to mention that I broke down in the car this afternoon. I was talking to my GF about fears and recovery, as she suffers PTSD from a very brutally abusive R. As I was driving I895 (easy breezy part of my commute) I began applying my knowledge to PWC, and how much fear he must live with/in right now, and the thought became overwhelming, to the point that I felt pain for him, because I was there, I KNOW that pain, that debilitation, from the fears piling up, suffocating.

I want to hold him, comfort him, but part of his fear comes from ME, my past actions. I feel so very bad for that, and I can't erase it. Our anniversary is a sore reminder of what he did to our family, but his fear of me, of M, is a constant reminder of what *I* did to him, by withholding from him, love, respect, honor, truth, trust, and so many other things.

It's a big hit that I am taking today, to really, truly GET that I was party to losing his trust. It hurts to admit that.

I wonder if PWC will ever be able to dismantle this wall, this fortress that he is held up in. I sometimes STILL fear that we will never see him again, not fully. I know he may be changed, I don't expect him to be exactly like he used to be, but I hope to see him come out of that shell.

LG, I will reread your posts from today; they are so full of great advice and knowledge. You have helped to fully open my eyes, over this last year, to so many things, I can't thank you enough.

I read that you will be out of town for a bit, and traveling. Have a great time!

SL,

I agree with SL my tenth anniversary was last month. Much like LG that date is not celebrated based on what she decided to do on that date.

Other then the cards people slip us it goes unmentioned.

Not much to celebrate.

As LG stated that hour is good, have you asked what his fears are.

My FWW once said her biggest fear was she would work really hard to save the M only to get a D anyway because I would never forgive her.

She didn't want to put in the work if the end was the same no matter what.

Just a thought.

You think you know his fears. Only he knows his fears.

If you can't afford Harley have you checked your insurance yet. My old insurance covered most of it and my new insurance covers most of it after our deductable.

Any help is good help.

My insurance is in the transition process. On July 28th, I switch to another company, so I planned on looking into coverage then.

I don't know what his fears are, so I will talk to him, and ask the question. I can only imagine, judging from the fears that I have or do deal with, how monstrous his fears may be. If he does say the same thing your wife said, I would probably say, in response, that is a real fear, but tell him that my intention is to strive for a great M.

I, too, had this fear, but I no longer fear D. I truly do not; it would be sad, but I don't expect either one of us to remain in a M that CANNOT WORK. I am 50% of this marriage, and will do all that I can.

Silent:

It was financially icky for us as well. It put a dent in the budget. I was in a funk...(withdrawal) So I wasn't as productive as I needed to be, and my income is directly related to what I put into it.

And the MB weekend was smack dab the same weekend of something that I was supposed to run for a number of other people.

But, my M was more important than all of that. Flamingo saw this and recognized a change in me with that single act. I was always putting the office first. Finally I put her and the M first.

I booked the weekend, and told the folks that I couldn't be there, but made arrangements for the event to go off smoothly.

Do you think PWC would be interested in my story of Dday and discovery of MB?

MB is about transformation.

Changing the way we relate to each other as H & W.

Flamingo got it, and it hit me like a ton of bricks.

I like what Frog said:

"You think you know his fears. Only he knows his fears."

PWC needs to start articulating them to you.

Have him start with easy ones.....

- not getting to see enough of DS
- having to accept that he was wrong in choosing to cheat
- there really is a boogyman under the bed
-

Then build on that.

Very intimate these conversations about fears with your H. Make sure the mood is right.

LG

I think you need to FOCUS on having FUN together right now..while he is in WITHDRAWAL..not much R talk..just FUN ..WHATEVER.. TALK like you did last night..FOCUS on the NOW..FOCUS ON THE PRESENT...

See it like developing a NEW MARRIAGE..a NEW RELATIONSHIP..like courting...like dating...

And..realize that folks are DIFFERENT and you need to accept him for who he is...

My H did the coaching with STEVE..but hated the idea of the weekend..especially early on in RECOVERY..

And coming here..is the LAST THING he would do...

He's the BESTEST H EVER NOW!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

LG, is that the thread "It's curtains for LG"?

PWC has been known to drop in and read. I could send him the link via email. I know he wished that Trueheart were still around; he read his letter, and wanted to email him, but, alas, Trueheart had long since cancelled the email account.

I've mentioned to PWC that many FWS's come here. Some even came here while still entrenched in their A's (that must take a lot of courage!) I've told him that he would be anonymous here. Maybe he FEARS that I will read his posts and become ANGRY. it's a valid fear. I would have to prove that I would not, but I would be up to the challenge.

Silent:

Mimi is right, go for the conversation, and the rest will follow.

Her H was more in PWC's shoes than mine, but he did talk to Steve H. Maybe go that route first. Cheaper too.

And that is the thread I was talking about.

IF, he does come here, or you send him the link, I'll talk to him, via phone or in person, if you think it would help him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Flamingo and I could come up to Fells Point and have a beer with the two of you as well at the Cats Eye Pub. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

However, I need to run that by her first! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

LG

Mimi, it is so good to get both opinions. I will take both under advisement. I have been staying in the NOW, focusing on now, today. I plan on staying there. Withdrawal SUX, I'm sure of it!

I am coming from a place of love and respect. I don't want to harm that right now. I think giving him the information is okay, but I'll leave it at that. He must decide for himself.

LG, I so appreciate the offer to sink a beer with you and Flamingo. We may take you up on that someday. I will talk to him about the link, and see if he is up to receive the info. If he is, I will send the link. If he wants to talk to you, I will let you know.

Good lord, I just don't think I can thank y'all enough, but thank you, again.

You guys and goddesses keep me in line, keep me thinking, help me to recharge when I am running low on energy, give me ideas, share your knowledge, and push me to face things.

LG, Cat's Eye Pub has half priced burgers on Tuesdays! and a great beer selection! There's always Bertha's too--for some great mussels!

Silent:

NOT a fan of Mussels....

But what about the Sip & Bite?

Till tommorrow!


LG

SL - I think I would try to do a lot of FUN things, and maybe your husband will relax some. After all, I'm sure you are not comfortable feeling like the warden.

I would figure out something he likes to do and DO it.