Thank you Mimi, I needed that hug, truly, totally, appreciate it. I'm working, I SWEAR to you all, I am.

I know the struggles bring us to conflict, and open the door to intimacy. He is being completely honest with me, and I so appreciate his doing so. I know how hard this is for him.

I do post, most often, at work. I had been struggling this weekend and needed to get it out, and see what advise people would have, so I could correct my behavior. You came to my rescue, and I did recognize where I went wrong. I have apologized on three occassions now, and will continue to apologize and explain WHY I was wrong.

I know I was wrong, assuming too much, not asking, preying on his weakness, pushing him down.

On two of the three occassions that I apologized, and/or hugged him, I stood beneath him, or knelt or layed below his shoulder level, looked up and smiled or apologized.

And maybe this is a JUDGMENT but this is how I experience it..

After 35 years of my life with my H, just in the past few years of RECOVERY, I've REALIZED that my H is INSECURE and TENDERHEARTED. He either kept that part of himself from me before or I denied it..WHATEVER...

It's not MY JOB to change him..this is THE MAN I married and fell in love with...

It is MY JOB..TO ACCEPT IT...

Come to think of it, this has been THE MAJOR LEARNING EXPERIENCE FOR ME...

My H is the SAME MAN but I view him so differently and I react to him so differently because of this INSIGHT...

He has been SO SUCCESSFUL in so many ASPECTS of LIFE that one would not SUSPECT what I am saying at all about him..unfortunately, the OW DID for whatever reason...she GOT IT that he needed much, much ADMIRATION and APPRECIATION..or she JUST DID IT..whatever...

I've had to even help OUR SONS understand this about him...it has REALLY HELPED our R and OUR FAMILY...

Of course, HE is being MORE OPEN about his VULNERABILITIES and INSECURITIES...NOW...

IT IS WHAT IT IS...I can't figure out the all the reasons why I GET THIS NOW...I hate it that it took the TRAGEDY of an AFFAIR...

WONDERFUL!! Just think of the LOVE DEPOSITS!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And of couse I failed to mention, so busy being JUDGMENTAL about MY HUSBAND...

My Faults of being...SO SELF-RIGHTEOUS, OVEREMOTIONAL, PERFECTIONISTIC, DEMANDING AND FEARFUL OF CONFLICT!!!..there's more...

Well, I continue to STRUGGLE TO CHANGE...

I still have my moments...

S/L:

It's been awhile, but I have been reading.

PWC needs to step up a little, and your other short thread talked about that.

About the conversation about "female" bosses.....

Yep. You had to defend all women didn't you?

Outside of some real women-hating statements, you just have to agree and go with it. You will always have a Better Point. Flamingo will Always HAVE a Better Point.

And if PWC and LG or anyone else has a Better Point, you just change the subject.....

That sounds harsh, doesn't it?

But all PWC wanted to do was talk. About his job and the pressures and how tough his boss is. He expanded it to include all women bosses, but really, all he wanted to talk about was his work stress. Then came the defense of women, (not really the point he was talking about) and then he was on the defensive and the conversation spun out of control....

Have that happen every week for years in a marriage and you understand why couples slowy drift apart....

He wasn't right, you were not wrong. He just wanted to have a conversation.

And then you realize about his phone call that different wording would have gotten that conversation better along to.

PWC's blaming MB is to be expected, maybe in the past you would have wording that conversation differently. But, who's to say.

POJA MB if you like. As Mimi says, do it when it doesn't infringe on PWC time. I try not to be here when it's Flamingo time.

And you are not an Idiot.

You are learning a new way of doing things....

It takes time. PWC is learning to. He has alot further to go. He is also dealing with a better, improved SL.

(((SL)))

LG

I can't thank you guys enough for sticking it out with me. I know I'm going to make mistakes, and PWC is showing me that he knows it too. He has said some things I consider MEAN to me, in the HEAT of conversation, and I'm trying to look at what he says for the MEAT of what he means.

He is defending himself, and that brings those haunches up, and venom can fly at that point, the fight or flight of it all. He used to flee, and almost did three times during our argument last night. Instead of fleeing, he stood his ground and showed me why what I said was wrong, then we got to the fact that HOW I said what I did, in that accusatory tone, was wrong.

I kick myself on days like this; I really do. I'm so sad for hurting him, for SUSPECTING the worst of him. I don't WANT to do that, it a reactionary thing. Working against that is so difficult, but I am trying, I'm doing.

This afternoon, I will continue on with NORMAL life, no R talk, no sad eyes. I think I may work out, or at least get in the pool and swim a bit. Make some easy dinner, just live in the moment, no past, no future. Surprisingly, I am adapting to that aspect of recovery pretty well. I rebound from my scewed thinking process much more quickly.

When I get another break, I'm going to read up on the recovery thread that Mimi bumped. I started reading yesterday, but wanted to get off the forum and spend time with the family, so I will look at it again today.

((((SL)))) I have nothing to add...just want you to know I'm thinking of you.

Fox

Foxy lady, thank you for dropping in. Hope you are doing well, I'll read up and see...

Hey SL, you didn't say or at least I didn't read whether you told PWC that you were wrong (about assuming the worst). My DH was amazed the first time I said "I'm sorry, I was wrong" after recovery began. No justifications or rationalization from me. Just, I was wrong. That led to him saying how he understood where I was coming from and me then saying, no excuse, I handled that badly. But thank you for understanding.

Now it's almost comical to see which of us will admit they were wrong first. It's like, "Thank you." "No, thank YOU." "No, seriously. I really thank you." LOL.

I'm like Fox. I don't know what to tell you other than that I'm pulling for you. And PWC.

(((SL)))

princessmeggy, I did tell him that I was wrong, and why I believed I was, and how horribly I handled the situation. He didn't fall over himself about it, but he seemed to understand that I was sincere.

I have told him a number of times when I have been wrong, and I'm okay with admitting that.

I have to work on stating I'm wrong, without any BUTS following it, because that just negates me being wrong, and then I would go on to justify WHY I did wrong. Like there's a justifiable reason to be accusatory in the face of misinformation. NOT!

I like that I can at least admit wrong doing or misunderstanding, or being irrational, not thinking things through. This helps me to learn how NOT to handle these situations. I just hope he sticks it out long enough for us to find these better modes of communication. I half expect him to give up and leave again. Guess that's just knee jerk, past life thinking. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

guy smiley, thanks for dropping in and showing me support. The recovery thing is pretty tough, but good, for me. I have every reason to be mean and gruff and horrible, IF I don't want to remain married and want to be RIGHT. That's not what I want.

I'm beginning to see that we all have to go through this, this cycle of learning each other with a better sense of REALITY. Understanding that neither one of us is perfect, and that poor treatment of one another will solve nothing. Coming from a place of love is the best way, and I failed that this weekend. Big errors on my part. I cannot speak for PWC, I can only say that I felt he erred in his own ways, but as LG pointed out, no rights, no wrongs. Errors that can be remedied, if you are willing to let that guard down and really see your faults, even in the face of the one that hurt you the most, because it's easy to cloud the issue with their wrongdoings toward you, and avoid the necessary changes, since you're so busy pointing the justification, and blame finger. Such as, "I wouldn't be this way now, had you not done X or Y to me!"

What happened, happened, and if we are to make this a happy M, healthy M, strong M, we BOTH must deal with the backlash from this whole mess and raise above it to learn. Hard, very hard lessons, learning I am (a la the stylings of Yoda).

edited to add...

Lordy, i hope any of what I just said made sense <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Hey SL! Recovery sounds as comfortable as Cinderella showing up at a Vampyr Ball. This can't be easy. I admire you and PWC a lot. Keep working it. Believe me, the alternative should be avoided.

Hang on SL!!

Your thinking will directly affect your actions...

Begin to EXPECT HIM TO STAY...

Because YOU ARE HIS GODDESS...HIS CHOSEN WOMAN..THE MOTHER OF HIS CHILD...

YOU HAVE THE POWER...

It is crucial to begin to believe in your PERSONAL POWER...

HEAD UP...CHEST OUT...TOUCH HIM...CARESS HIM...LET HIM KNOW.."YOU ARE MY MAN"..I DESIRE YOU...I WANT YOU....YOU ARE MINE...

YOU HAVE THE POWER, SL...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I just thought of something that I LEARNED TO DO..that you might find to be helpful..thought about it in a conversation that I just had with my H...

He clearly wanted me to SHUT UP AND LISTEN...hard for me to do without giving my 2 cents..he now says OUT LOUD.."LISTEN"...and I do..and I laugh at the stuff he says..and I'M STILL and I SOAK HIM UP..I GET INTO HIM...

Maybe that's what PWC is looking for...YOU JUST BEING WITH HIM..his SHOULDER to SHOULDER BUDDY...learned that from the book I keep recommending..LOVE AND RESPECT....

S/L

What Mimi just posted goes the other way as well.

Sometimes, Flamingo just wants to vent, doesn't want me to fix it, doesn't want me disagree, just wants to discuss the frustration and relax a little. This is usually in regards to work issues and the like. I can't do anything about them, that's her world, but I can listen.

I understood this for quite a while. That's the frame of reference I was using in regards to PWC and your conversation regarding his boss.

You see? It wasn't about Women in power, it was about venting...being safe to describe his day to you.

And in many cases, it is easier for the woman to describe her day to the man and he will not challenge, or one-up the women. Women are glad he is listening.... Problems start when the man doesn't even feign interest in what she is saying. And when the man talks and is just venting like a woman can.... he can get challenged.

S/L: If you were sitting around with your GF's and discussing bosses, you would just listen to what they had to say, maybe throw in a few choice boss stories as well. That's all PWC may have been looking for....

I do not want any of the above to sound sexist. Read "You just don't Understand: Women and Men in Conversation" by Deborah Tannen. Describes the above to a tee.

Quite the eye opener for me.

LG

Great point, LG! I struggle with this. Problem-solver takes over and I try to fix the situation, when I'm not actually being asked to do that. To compound the problem, I think I probably used to get a bit frustrated that problem-solving wasn't what she wanted ("Well, if you don't want my advice, then why are you telling me this?"). Captain Oblivious at work! I get it now--what's important is that it was something that *she* wanted to tell *me*.

LG, you don't sound sexist at all. It's quite important for me to understand the differences in communication of men.

I hear that I keep making him feel unsafe, the exact opposite of the environment I want to create. It's also a desire of mine to feel safe, and I don't either. Why?, you may ask...

FEAR. It's a daily task to learn what they are and how to either dismantle them or learn from them and NOT act on them.

I keep seeing this, over and over again, everyone is saying the same things to those of us, we the BS, needing to be the ones to lead recovery, lead with love, in the beginning. I'm getting it, and will work more and more at implementing the necessary changes in MYSELF.

It is very frustrating and shocking when you enter recovery, and are still carrying such a heavy burden, WISHING that your WS would step up. Wishing and crying, two things that don't solve anything.

S/L:

About this:

"I hear that I keep making him feel unsafe, the exact opposite of the environment I want to create. It's also a desire of mine to feel safe, and I don't either."

I do not know if your are making him feel unsafe.

The times that you described, he WAS looking for safety. We remember those times, when we reached out and the life preserver was pulled away.

Now, you will be much more aware of those times that a life preserver has been thrown and you need to grab the other end of the line.

Slowly, you pull in the rope, working the tides and other things that keep him pushed away.

He's holding on, and he kicks now and then, but you seem so FAR away.

But you really are not.

He was tossing in the waves for a long time. (even before returning...) He's not the strong one.

Your feeling of being unsafe? Will improve as he kicks and paddles towards you more....

Watch for the life preservers, and tug gently towards you...

And the life perservers can be painted with wild colors and different shapes. It would be ALOT easier if they said S.S. PWC when they were tossed out... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

LG

It WAS very frustrating and shocking that FWH didn't automatically jump in and FIX it. I was very upset and discouraged about that for a long time. (Until I found MB and started reading that my FWH wasn't any different.)

I think part of it is that BS are so wanting recovery that when they hear recovery is hard, sometimes harder than going through the affair cr*p, they don't really understand what that means... until they get there.

And you're right. For now it's just you. PWC will come around eventually. You're doing all the right things.