SL,

I've been following your thread, and I have so much respect for your patience. I was in false recovery for 5 months, and my WH went back and forth - loving then distant. It drove me crazy, so I don't know if I have the patience to go a whole year. You have lasted longer than I think I can. After reading HNHN and Harley saying that some men go back to OP after years, I'm still wondering if it's all worth it......

Well, Knitgirl, the way I see it, if we both (eventually) put our all into recovery and protection and care, he will not go back to her, for he will miss out on ME. Now, if he still chooses to go back, even if I'm still working the MB core principles, then something is so lacking in his character that I will be fine with that decision. Problem in our R has been PWC not jumping in. He could be afraid, bored, lazy, angry, depressed, insert other diagnosis here.

His examples, growing up, were always to run away, either by affairs or drinking or drugs, just run away. If he chooses not to break from that, I cannot do anything about that.

One thing I can tell you, like I said, no timeline, but our recovery will eventually have to be both of us, without force or ultimatum, working the tools. His choice.

I'm actually not afraid of him leaving anymore, now or ever. I would be sad and angry, but I would move on, knowing that I would find another special someone someday. Yes, thinking about that saddens me, for I want that special someone to be PWC, and I will always feel that, always have love for him. I can't fix him.

I also tend not to compare PWC to all others. He is, after all, unique, and I respect that. It's like Bonnie Raitt sings, "I can't make you love me, if you don't..."

It must be considered that there is a flip side to this coin, and that is the offending spouse. If he chooses not to love me anymore, or FEELS that he can't, there is nothing anyone else can do to change that, he must change himself.

My choice right now is to believe that he is doing all he can with what he knows and is willing to do right now, to work toward recovery. I choose to be as positive as I can be.

I think, honestly, I don't ask questions about the R right now, because I don't want him to spew fog at me. I need to get over that. There may be some information from what he got from his A's that could help us to get closer to his EN's. Some say to talk, others say to leave it be. This is a challenge for me, because I am an information seeker. My logical side says that knowing is better than not knowing, but knowing what? Knowing from what perspective, that of a wayward mindset? Is that really valuable information, or will it be scewed in unrealities?

Oh, lord Knitgirl, look what you started...

SL,

Didn't mean to open a can of worms here. He's obviously there because he want the M, but what indication has he given you that he does want to be there. It's probably in your thread somewhere, but did he write a NC letter and meet some conditions that you had?

This is where PERSONAL RECOVERY comes in....building your self- confidence..becoming a GODDESS...feeling good about who you are as a WOMAN...

Ok. Let's take the focus off of HIM. What's the matter with me? I should know this.

What makes YOU feel SEXY? Do that...regardless of his response.

You probably already know what turns him on without asking. You lured him to you in the past. Probably the very same things work. DO YOUR THING, SL. YOU KNOW WHAT TO DO.

GO AHEAD AND SEDUCE YOUR HUSBAND...

FEEL THE FEAR AND DO IT ANYWAY...

The better you feel about yourself..the more attractive you will be to him..and the happier YOU will be...

FOCUS on building your OWN SELF CONFIDENCE....

Don't FEAR REJECTION...

You'll be FINE..you can handle whatever happens...

You've already been through the FIRE..and SURVIVED...

The only thing stopping you now is YOURSELF...

REMEMBER FREE YOURSELF..LET YOURSELF GO...

On my office bulletin board since PLAN B...

Changed my sig line as a reminder because I find myself questioning why I'm doing this. I know WHY, but the infidelity smacks me upside the head; the thought of the betrayal, and sidetracks me; the TAKER peeks it's head out for a nanosecond and wants retribution, but the GIVER takes back the reigns.

I choose recovery, with all it's pitfalls and all of the doubt and fear. I choose to recover for me. Whatever will be, will be, but I choose to recover. THis has been a very tough few days for me, turmoil brewing inside. FEAR.

Mimi, you are right, I have survived the fire, now I just need to learn to tread on hot coals for a while, lightly...

SL,

Have you asked why?

Could be depression.
Could be guilt.
Could be withdrawl.
Could be ED.
Could be HE IS AFRAID OF REJECTION.

Could be a lot of things. Could be all of these things at different itmes. Could be none of these things. Could be some and not the others.

We can get you all dressed up in sexy stuff every day OR you could ask FWH why.

HMMMM communication. Honestly when I was at my lowest it was not really on my radar. BTW I am the guy who normally wants SF everyday and some times twice a day.

I think the big thing is opening up the line of communication.

I will for a moment offer some contradictory adivice to Mimi's. Stop getting dressed up and seducing for a while. Maybe play a little hard to get. I am not saying wear a burka but stop trying so hard.

My sig line used to say "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

For whatever reason he may not feel up to it right now. Address that and things may change.

Frog,
I've gotten similar responses about the SF from you, LG, BC, Sdguy, and Chrisner, in regards to not being UP for it.

I'm okay with talking about it, but we need some good alone time for this kind of talk, so I am biding my time and trying to find the right opportunity.

Heck, it took me two weeks to just come out and ask why he isn't receiving mail at the house yet. He said, quite matter of factly this morning, that he just forgot to do it. I didn't ask anything else or comment. For some reason, that bothered me, so I decided to just ask. I feel better that I asked and he answered. I left it at that. I did, however, get myself all worked up in the moment before asking; my heart started beating really STRONGLY (I could feel it in my chest, thumping away). I felt the fight or flight response for something that I only perceived, that hadn't even happened yet.

Once I got the question out of my mouth, i was fine. It's a gargantuan trigger for me, to ask most questions, but I do it. I got so many horrible answers when I asked questions that FEAR is ruling that now. I broke through today and asked what I felt the need to know, that was important to me, for whatever reason.

So, that being said, I will work on the slow and steady seduction; I will continue to strive to get back to a comfort zone, so I can do this. I'm really just trying to fulfill HIS need here, although, I'm feeling the need myself lately. I AM 35. I do like sex. I miss my husband in that capacity.

I've been relaxing a whole lot more these past few days, letting go of a lot of the strife that I'm creating in my own head, truly letting his stuff be his, without speculating, "Gee, I wonder what's wrong with him, today?". I'm not concerning myself with his moods or such, I'm just going to continue to give affection, cause that's easy, and talk about whatever, and laugh.

I've been working out, too; not like IRON MAN, or anything, just some light weights, high reps, circuit training sort a thing, then I hit the heavy bag. That really puts me down for the count, too. I think an overactive mind needs something to quiet it. For me, that heavy bag does the trick.

Frog, thanks for being a good recovery buddy, here. I know that this is still so much work for you, too, and I appreciate your insight into the MALE persona, in general, wayward or not.

SL:

I was in exact the same sitch as you just a couple of months ago. What you said in your post I can relate completely.

My H was in withdraw for a long 8 months. NC was broken twice. So the first thing I can tell you is to watch for NC. Still ask for it. Don't be afraid. I checked all the cell records, etc. And I asked for it. The addiction is very powerful and even if I knew that my WH wanted to break free from his A, he might not have the self control sometimes, especially when things got tough between us.

Also ask your H about if he is willing to take antidepressants. When my H came back, the first week was so terrible and he went to see a doc to get some ADs to cope. It did help. But unfortunitely he stopped taking it after couple of weeks when he felt better. There were two times that NC was broken and both times after the contact, his mood got so bad that he had to start the AD again. After the last C (he attempted it but she didn't respond), he decided to take ADs for a longer time and things have been turning around since then.

Also according to my experience, when WH is in intense withdraw, making things light and easy is the best. Having a great haircut and buying a little cute dress to wear on weekends is better than wearing new lingeries every night in my experience. I did a lot of shopping at Victorial's Secret during that time, but it didn't help much. When they are not receptive (not like they don't want to, but their emotions and their body are still not healthy) and their failure to respond will reinforce some of their negative justifications.

The other thing is that you seem to be very much in control during all this emotional turmoils that's going on inside you. I don't know how you could manage to do it and I truly admire you for that. But on the other hand, your H might not feel the full impact of his A on you emotionally if you don't show him much. During the months of my H's withdrawal, I had to explode like a clock, just letting out all my pain and suffering and he had to watch them. I do regret saying a lot of hurtful things to him and even mentioning separation and losing faith in our love, etc, etc...But I think those painful emotional breakdowns in my part still gave him a reality of what this actions impacted me and when he turned around, he felt a lot of guilt and started to really try to make amends. But remember to lock up your LBs etc when you let out your emotions.

Lastly, please keep faith. I couldn't imagine my H being affectionate only couple of months ago, but now he is out of his withdrawal and we feel like newly wed in a lot of ways. So keep the faith. They will turn around.

LA

Not really. Could go just like the mail convo. Hey I have tried just about everything to get you to jump my bones whats up... I am sure you can word it better then that.

Of course throw in the "it's ok if you need more time to get comfy or whatever. Doesn't need to be a long heavy.


I personally prefer the fear,anger,resentment or whatever over the known then the unknown. So asking the question at least makes it a known. Asking may suck but not knowing sucks more. I would have more FEAR not knowing then asking so the bigger would rule. Or keep asking questions of him until you aren't ruled by that fear.

this may not be his need Right Now.

Good. You know my wife does that and I don't like it. Sometimes I just have gas. That's why I make those faces. LOL

The whole mind thing I can relate. I have been so much happier since I have this job. The reason being is I am usually very busy at work. The last job i had a lot of free alone time. Here not so much.

Not having the capacity to dwell is a wonderful thing.

Plus I am sure that it also tires you out some.

SL I think we all have a lot of work to do.

You keep working on it. And remember usually all you have to do is ask.

Wouldn't it be funny if he said "I don't like all the seduction stuff. Just hop into bed and start .....ing me and I will be up to it. I don't know what .....ing is for him it might be licking his ear or something. But I am sure he knows.

If my FWW asked me I could give her a list of things. Heck for me she could say "hey you wanna?" That works for me usually.

It's funny how overly focused I can be on him; luckily, I have had you guys and gals to get me to stop that; to ask the dang questions, and to work with the fear.

I asked a lot of questions the first false recovery. I'm not holding back, just waiting until I regenerate some strength before diving into deeper, murkier waters.

I've come to a point where I recognize what questions I really need answered by what priority my brain gives them. I'm not taking the lack of intimacy personally, like he's doing it TO me, just concerned, and want to discuss it a bit. Heck, it may ease his mind to get some things off of his chest. He may not want SF right now, and may feel awkward. I won't know unless I ask.

I've used the, "Hey, you wanna?" in the past, so that's always an option. I'm really, honestly, quite tired of thinking of PWC in an abstract way. I'm just gonna do my thing, live life, injecting normalcy (as I know it--I am a nut, so that's questionable), getting on with it. Dwelling on PWC and what he may or may not be thinking could drive me crazy. Honestly, I hit a wall with that, and just wanna go about my days. It's not that I don't care, not at all, it's that I'm letting go of all of that.

I'm just going to live my life, nuzzle when I wanna (unless some large adverse reaction ensues), kiss, hug, laugh, joke, be serious when I need to, work out when I need to, take care of me and my home and my husband, as if life is okay; generally, for me, life IS okay.

Interesting weekend, so far.

Yesterday, PWC and I were talking, about music, musicians, and how some music has moved each of us to tears. How our tastes have changed, and why.

Then, PWC started talking about female supervisors/bosses, and his experiences with them so far. He wondered why they (a generalization-he said he knew) had to come in and be ball busters in order to rule. I said that those women may feel insecure in that capacity, and may have experienced that they MUST be like that in order for people to respect them.

I said that I did not necessarily agree with that method of management, but have had many MALE bosses that were just as sh!tty, with very similar MOs. PWC became upset after we went round and round with this one. I asked him how much experience, and under what conditions he's seen this. He's been supervised by women on multiple occassions, and I do not disagree that many have been AGGRESSIVE. I told him I'm not a supervisor, so I can't explain it.

People at work call me BOSSY SL (my reall name instead of SL, mind you). I recognize that I am very open, very vocal about what I believe. I am working to understand where that comes from; maybe a fatherless life, I dunno, could be many things. I've worked so hard to get where I am. I've endured a lot, maybe that's where that aggressive nature comes from, a protective thing. I don't know for sure, but recognize the need to work on that, and I am.

Mind you, bossy SL has been out the window since PWC has been home. Well, things escalated to the point that he was angry with me for having an opposing view, stating that I always have more in my ARSENAL, no matter what points he makes, I have a counterpoint. I stated that I AM a woman, not a man, so it's hard to NOT talk about being a woman in the working world, and WHY we may be aggressive.

It just kind of rolled into him not FEELING happy right now, and not being able to give me what I want. Mind you, I have not asked for anything. I told him that he cannot erase what has happened between us. I believe that he must deal with these things in order to better understand the WHY's. I said that he may need to find someone to talk to, but that is his decision. I told him that NOT talking to me is his decision, but that I am opened to listening.

I told him that I have fears about this, too, and am working toward resolving them, dealing with them, and letting go of the illusion that I control him in some way.

I did cry a bit; it was a painful conversation, but in the end, I thanked him for his honesty. He said he felt good about arguing, that we DID argue, because we NEVER did that before.

I told him that I would not be making decisions about his life anymore, I won't be telling him to leave or quit and I won't give up on what I am doing, because it not only is good for recovery, but it is good for me. I told him that I appreciate him telling me how he views me, and will use the information to better myself.

I did not spit out vile DJ's at all. I spoke my truth, with I statements. I told him what I'M doing toward recovery.

I realized that he was in the same place he was last year, in July, when I asked him to leave. He is so unhappy. There is nothing I can do beyond try to meet the needs he will allow. I realize that, and I'm okay with that.

I told him that I felt we needed guidance, but couldn't force him. NOT acting, not doing, is a choice. I told him that I think it's early for me to have HIGH expectations.

He said that he believed that I didn't recognize the efforts he has made, and I told him that I did. I said that I didn't feel like my most important EN's were being filled, such as affection, SF (really, truly, right now, these are very high). That I feel a bit starved, but that is because I am focusing on HIM. I am working on that.

I hugged my son a lot this morning, kissing him and telling him that I love him; I think that helped to aleviate some of my need, by giving to my DS. PWC is very uncomfortable with that right now, so I'm going to do what I can, but not force it. It clicked, I'm just going to go about life and invite him in.

Sorry this is so long, but it was a big night, a scary night, and I'm okay.

Any insight into what I could be doing is greatly appreciated. I may not be able to do anything, and that it an okay response. Whatever you see that I can work on, please be honest, I'm okay with that, too.

It was a rough evening. I'm going to Lowe's to pick up some tile for the bathroom, and going to a fabric store to look into covering one wall in our bedroom with it; it seems like a nice look, and I'd like to try it. I invited PWC to come.

edited to add...

PWC told me there has been NC for three months.

Also, he cried very hard last night, about his life right now, and about how he feels he won't be able to do this, etc. and so on (some I didn't understand through the crying). I just held him and said that I'm sorry he is in this place, but I am here if he wants to get comfort or anything.

How did things ESCALATE, SL? What made him ANGRY, you think?

Remember for MEN, they feel LOVED when they are RESPECTED..a hard lesson for me to learn, too...

He may have wanted you to LISTEN and say YOU ARE RIGHT..without feeling CRITICIZED...

When they FEEL CRITICIZED..they feel UNLOVED...

I'm not saying this to CRITICIZE you, SL..I'm saying it to HELP...

HARD STUFF..which can easily BE FIXED..even today...

You can tell him you're sorry..but let's figure HOW IT ESCALATED..

I think he's trying to TELL YOU SOMETHING...

I bumped up some threads for you to show you how I struggled with this same issue and how others helped me...

A snippet from Pep to me on that thread..which was such a VALUABLE LEARNING EXPERIENCE for me...



SL:

This may have been one of those ONE-SIDED MOMENTS your H needed..where you just let him BE RIGHT....

Get it?

I do get it Mimi. It really just started out as a conversation about women in places of power and escalated to HIS bosses. I thought we were just lightly debating, then WHAMMO, it became personal. SEriously, quickly went downhill. I didn't know what to do, but I did tell him that I agreed with his assessment of the women he has worked for.

It was rough. I don't really know why he's angry with ME, bt he is. I think he feels railroaded by me; the ME that existed in the past, the one that I'm trying to work on. I told him as much; that I cannot know what to work on if he won't be honest with me about that. I felt bad that he couldn't express himself until it became more heated.

I assured him that I was not against him, I was just looking at the world, in general, as a woman. It was a light debate, turned personal. I DID apologize to him, and I thanked him for being honest. It was too late to lift him up, I had already begun debating. I could only apologize.

He took things to another level, and said that, no matter how many points he makes, I always have something, as a woman, to TRUMP him. I said I didn't realize that I was doing that, and apologized, stating that I'm not trying to hurt him, but I needed to know that, from his perspective. It was helpful to me, harmful to our progress.

I was enjoying the evening, and then this conversation started. You are right, he did want me to tell him he's right. I'll try to work that in this afternoon; tell him after a little reflection, that he is right about HIS situation.

PWC did mention that he IS passive/aggressive last night. I don't really know what I need to do about that. I feel there is nothing TO DO. One thing at a time.

RESPECT, finding ways to show him that. HE feels that he can do no right. I have been grateful in all the right spots, so I assume that I need to keep doing more of the same.

I told PWC that this conversation changed nothing for me, and taught me a 'jumping off' point for what I need to work on, but that I wasn't going to be doing what I did last year, and letting my emotions determine something. I wouldn't make decisions based on emotion anymore, not purely. His response to that was 'what other way is there to make decisions?" I just said that that is my choice, not to lead by emotion. I couldn't tell him HOW to make his choices.

I knew it was going down hill, and I kept going. He was getting more and more heated, to the point that I felt like I was a fireman, dropped into a fire zone, trying to control it. I felt baited, like he was trying to make me angry. I never got angry, but I did feel hurt and ambushed.

I have to learn to deal with all of that. It's going to take some time. Thanks for bumping the info. I'll read up.

Thanks for bumping the threads Mimi. I remember reading the one about your personal recovery. The one about love and respect is in my que to be read.

Well, when I stick my foot in my mouth, I really go for the gusto!

We had a great day yesterday. Hands down, better than any we've had so far. Well, when PWC was putting DS to bed, my brother told me something. He and PWC went to a concert together this past Thursday, and PWC made a personal call to a woman, but my brother did not hear her name. HE felt the need to tell me this. SOOOOOOO, I ACCUSED PWC of calling the OW. Turns out it was his BF girlfriend, the one he lived with for a large portion of our separation.

He was livid, as he should have been. I could have asked WHO he called while at the concert; instead I came out all barrels cocked and ready. It was not pretty. I was awful. FEAR rose up and took over, instead of reason. I had also imbibed a bit of alcohol, which doesn't help matters at all; loosens those lips, y'know.

Well, PWC said many things back, and as I calmed down, I began to listen, still with fear in the forefront. He said, also, that he didn't like the MB forum. HE believes that we BASH WS. I said that is not what I have experienced on MY threads; just the opposite. That I'm told to work on myself, to begin to understand why I do what I do. No one defends you, because it is not YOU who is posting, and they don't need to defend you.

PWC understand me posting for support, but he doesn't like that I talk about our personal struggles. I'm at an impass, because I have no other support right now, and I prefer this forum to many other methods of self evaluation.

I asked him if he's been reading my thread. I told him that I did not see where anyone had directly bashed HIM. I also told him that I don't agree with that anyway, so I, generally, ignore it.

He told me that I am just like my sister, which to him, is a cut. I am like my sister in that I take everything so personally and FLY off the handle. I didn't disagree. I have, especially last night. I apologized for that, also. I said that I could only promise to continue to work on myself.

He did call his BF GF, to which I told him I was uncomfortable. He said, "It's D, she's my BF GF!" I told him that close personal relationships with ANY woman make me uncomfortable, and that will not change. I know how much he cares for his BF, I do. HE can't see how scary that is for me, or he doesn't care to, I don't know which.

Anyway, there is much more, and last night and today are strange. I feel compelled to touch him, so I have been. I screwed up and can't take back what I did. I can and have apologized.

I think I'm going to crawl back into my loving shell, and leave things, with him, alone for a long time, until HE brings things up. When he does, as demonstrated by Saturday evening, I will have to learn to listen better, and keep the ole yap shut. I can do no right, currently. I'm in the penalty box with him.

I feel like such an idiot

SL:

You struggle so much with my SAME ISSUES....

Read back over that PERSONAL RECOVERY thread of mine..

There is some VALUABLE HELP, I think, in there for you...

This is what I've learned in TOTALLY CHANGING from the MIMI I used to be:

* I always use coping strategies to insure that I THINK before SPEAKING when my EMOTIONS are trying to TAKE CHARGE..Pep instructed me on DIAPHRAGM BREATHING...take a walk..take a drive..time myself out...

* I NEVER criticize my H.. I speak MY TRUTH..but don't indicate how he is WRONG and I am RIGHT (even though I think so- <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

* I express APPRECIATION to him for the STUFF he does for me; he looks so PUFFED UP every time I say "THANK YOU"; it seems that I can't say it enough

* I give myself a BREAK when I goof up; APOLOGIZE, APOLOGIZE, APOLOGIZE...I say these exact words OUT LOUD: "I WAS WRONG ABOUT WHAT I DID, SAID", etc.

* POJA about MBers..my H is not in love with MB either..it's not obvious but I almost always post at work, when he's not home or when he's sleep or busy..He knows that I am posting; but prefers that I don't do it on his TIME...wants me to put the PAST BEHIND ME..MOVE ON..etc....

* I think that your MAJOR WORK needs to be on the ADMIRATION NEED...it was for me, read up on it in HNHN...read the book, LOVE AND RESPECT...

LATER....

HUG YOURSELF FOR ME!!

You are LEARNING AND GROWING..

Your H knows and sees it...

As Steve Harley himself told me, EMBRACE THE CONFLICT..it's the KEY to INTIMACY between you and YOUR HUSBAND...

The STRUGGLES..with the requisite OPENNESS AND HONESTY..are making you even closer to each other...