SL,

IMVHO that is why recovering is difficult with a PA person.

I personally beleive that if you are dealing with a person that blames others for their lot in life then recovery becomes difficult. Because if they blame others they are the victim. There is nothing they need to change, others need to change.

Self evaluation is nearly impossible. My FWW talks to people in a really condescending way sometimes, me included. When they get upset with her she can't undertand it. I do! I have pointed it out to her! It is like she is jabbing them with a stick! Then she will say you know I was really nice and they got all upset with me.

Everything you are saying about your H makes him PA.

I am the same with my kids. I want them to have a married mother and father. It gets difficult sometimes.

Knowing is half the battle the other is changing your part.

Good luck with that.

PWC can be very condescending, looking down at people, WHILE excluding himself from scrutiny.

I cast no stones, these days. I'm more in the business of talking to people about me, and what I have and can do. I tend not to talk down about anybody else. I WILL call people on their behavior, but I will not judge them based solely on that. WE are all so faulty, it's easy to be judgmental.

It is a difficult situation. I want to be married. I want a happy, HEALTHY family. I may not have the means to make that happen, and may need to accept that. I then would need to decide what I need, and/or how long I can stay. I'm not really happy that I am in this position, but will do what I can.

Found this on a website about PA. Thought it spoke to what Frog was saying, and definitely defines my current existence with PWC, hence the detachment.

Oy, and this quote hit me right between the eyes, BAM!

S/L:

TWO MONTHS!

OMG!

You poor girl, you!

WWWWEEELLLL, we can cross the SF need off as #1 on the old PWC's EN list, don't you think?

I think you really need to talk with Jennifer.

Whatever is making PWC hold it in like this is REALLY, REALLY Serious.

P/A is one thing, but this is bordering on the comical.

"I'm going to hold my breath until I turn BLUE"...(Pun intended!)

PWC: If you read this, I have Been There, where you are. My Flamingo "Got it" And slowly but surely, I "Got it" too.

Silent has "Got it" As she says, she knows the road of recovery is long.

Please join her.

The alternatives are worse.

Your DS had a great time with you, when you were seperated. Because all you had to do was have fun.

Life bites. And since you escaped the reality, you could have FUN with DS. That will not be true in the future.

DS will grow to resent the time with you. How he will be a guest.

That's the alternative.

Silent is ready to move on. But you have got to HOLD ON to HER.

You ARE a victim.

A Victim of the choices you make daily.

And those choices accumulate into a life led.

Think about those choices you are making now, and know that they may not really get you where you want to be.

If your interested, I can and WILL talk to you. Because I have been there.

I ain't the Harley's, But I understand where you are...

I will help you get to where you want to go.

LG

Yup LG, TWO MONTHS.

TWO months plus many years, I have been a part of this dance. I have been the black to his white. He's been the victim and I the martyr and vice versa. I'm ready for something better.

I do feel like I am dealing with a child. THat's not a put down, that's the behavior talking for him. He's holding his breath, but nobody's there giving him reason to. Nobody is fighting him.

I've been so bunged up lately, that it's manifesting physically. I have an appointment with my doc to talk about tingling and numbness in my fingers, as well as pain from my neck, clear down my arm, into my wrist and hand. I also have patches of rash that recur when stress seems high; could be psoriasis. I've had problems with my neck and back on and off now for many years. I'm only 35! I feel pretty old today. I look good, though, so the outside is holding up pretty well, so I go that going for me, which is nice. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

This is NOT GOOD...

You have begun talking about HIM...

Regardless of HIS ISSUES..or PERSONALITY TYPE..it's HIS WORK and OUT OF YOUR CONTROL...

All you can do is to SPEAK YOUR OWN TRUTH and ACCEPT HIM..or you will feel POWERLESS, FRUSTRATED and ANGRY..even FEARFUL..

I guarantee you...

How did this TAKE THIS TURN this afternoon?????

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

So why did you decide to do RECOVERY? You thought he'd be DIFFERENT?

As I said earlier this week, my H has his SAME PERSONALITY FLAWS and I would expect SO DOES YOURS...

He is who he is...the guy YOU CHOSE TO MARRY...

What I'm saying is that it is so much more valuable for YOU in the long run to take a look at YOURSELF...

Sl,

Keep with your personal recovery.

Mimi I disagree. He is not the guy SHE CHOSE TO MARRY...
He has changed, she has changed everyone changes.

Not all changes are created equal. Some are good some are bad and some are neutral.

He should be different and so should SL and so should we all after an A.

The idea is not to go back to the same old same old as pre A. That was broken.

I think SL has done a lot of self evaluation. She has taken her burden.

You cannot ignore PA behavior, you need to deal with it head on.

If PWC decides he is fine the A was a ooops and he doesn't want to grow what would you suggest then.

Don't get me wrong here, Mimi, this IS about me. I also have to consider what part I play in this relationship, and how to fix that.

I am in no way interested in changing him. I cannot. Are you saying that your FWH is P/A? I'm faulty as much as he is. I'm also VERY willing to look at my behavior and change it. I have to be able to LIVE with the person he is, and this requires me doing a lot of work. I don't know if I have the stamina, Mimi. I'm just being honest.

You are right, though, the focus went back on to him. REading about this P/A stuff is pretty tough. I contribute to it in my own way, and know that I have much work ahead of me.

You are dead on with your assessment. I'll get right back on track. I fall into the victim role very easily.

Oh, I decided to do recovery because I expected who he was BEFORE all of the crap happened. I know now that that expectation is wrong, but it's too late to go back. I also CHOSE recovery because it really, truly is what I want. I can only control me, and my half of marital recovery. I can recover ME alone, but our marriage has to be recovered by the choice of two people.

I assume nothing about PWC's choices.

Hi SL,

I wanted to read through your thread to see where you came from to where you are now, and I see that you started out with Plan B. It seemed to switch so quickly - from Plan B at end of April to him moving back in late in May. Is there a missing piece there or did I miss something?

I wanted to understand how you got to today. Did WH call you and ask to come back agreeing to meet your terms? I just didn't see where that was explained.

Can you shed some light on how that happened?

To Frog:

The PA stuff is NOT a part of the MBer's System...

I tend to be by the book...a koolaid drinker some say...

Also, to me, it's useless to spend much time focusing on your spouse's personality 'cause you can only CHANGE yourself.

And without speaking with the other person about how he/she is actually feeling..it seems DISRESPECTFUL to me...armchair psychology...

Of course NEITHER of us are the SAME after the A..I think both of us have changed for the BETTER and our marriage is GREAT..but we both still have the SAME FOO ISSUES, the same FLAWS and the same PECULIARITIES...like me being PERFECTIONISTIC and BY THE BOOK ( Mimi sighing)


That's my POV...

SL:

I don't know or care if my H is P/A or not..he certainly has some major FOO issues..so do I...I take the BITTER with the SWEET..

Sure, Knitgirl

PWC sent me an email, and then a TM asking me to read it, telling me I was under no obligation and he understood if I refused. I read the email, which stated that he wanted his family back, and was ready to do what I had asked of him, re: ending his A, moving out of her apartment, getting his own, getting counseling, and establishing NC.

He did move out of the home with OW#2, moved into his own place (he was actually moving the day he contacted me). He was seeing an IC. I saw him that evening, at dinner with our son; we then talked about recovery, and steps to get there. HE agreed with MB principles, etc. Within a week, he was living with me again. That's how we got from Plan B (which actually STARTED late last year, in October 2006, and went until February, when we had a false recovery, back to Plan B until May 5,2007).

No call from Jennifer C. The phone rang at 8:15PM, but no one was on the line.

Mimi, MB concepts do not work with PA; I know this. I do find it somewhat useless to focus on his behavior. I'm only stating the affect it has on me over time, WHEN I do the dance.

Thanks SL. I must have missed that post somewhere along the line.

Well, Jennifer did call, at 9:00PM EST (the appointment was scheduled for 8:00PM CT--that's a der dee der on my part)

Basically, she said that PWC may still be in withdrawal, and to expect that he will not be putting much effort in right now.

She told me to make lists of a few things. Number one, Lovebusters that I believe I do on the regular. I'll have to think a lot about this one; I have curtailed much of this behavior. I do need to find what she called an 'alternative' behavior, to replace the LB, instead of stuffing the anger.

Number two, a list of things we BOTH enjoy. This list is to be discussed with PWC, asking what he likes best of the things I listed.

Number three, fight or flight moments. List them and examine WHY I was triggered and how I reacted. Recognizing the behavior is the first step in changing it WHEN it occurs, on the fly. I have been working a great deal on this also.

Make a list of 'WHY' goals. Why am I doing this? (recovery, she means). This list is to be pulled out and reviewed when I am at a low, when I don't know if I can go on.

She said to start making thoughtful requests, even in terms of cuddling, or affection. To say, "I'd love it if..." or 'what do you think about'.

She agreed that I am not getting what I need, and that I was going to have to be much more VOCAL about my needs, in a thoughtful way.

She told me to give it two months, and that should give us an idea of what level of involvement PWC will have. She said MOST people begin to reconnect, even if JUST ONE of you is making changes.

As I had planned, she told me to find a babysitter and begin planning things according to the list of things we both enjoy. She told me to make it things that will not trigger me, and I will definitely enjoy. These need to be things that will fill BOTH of our LoveBanks.

I will take BR's advice and call the local high school, and also do a bit of an internet search for help with DS.

She really just reaffirmed that I was falling down, and that I could take this time to make my lists and get into a groove. She concurred that 'something' is awry with PWC's behavior, but that it wasn't completely out of the realm of possibility. She focused on ME changing and doing, and told me to do what I can, when I can.

It was about what I expected her to say, but it did bolster my faith. I think the physical maladies that I'm dealing with, coupled with the changes in lifestyle that are happening, along with PWC's lack of enthusiasm have had me up against a wall.

I begin to feel a sense of urgency (fight or flight) for no APPARENT reason, and I need to find out WHY. THis is part of my assignment. It comes and goes.

I will continue to digest info about PA behavior, but will ONLY be using Jennifer's advice on how to proceed in the M right now. PWC has to address his own behavior in his own time, and I cannot control that. I have to decide to do this, and just do it.

Well, I have a lot of work to do, but I feel no sense of urgency to make it all happen TODAY, just in the next couple of weeks. This lists, I will begin tuite de suite, but the rest will take some time.

Overall, I do feel better today. PWC was very nice last night when he came home from work, complimented me on the meal (salmon with balsamic glazed portobella mushrooms, and CousCous with pine nuts). We didn't have much time together. I thanked him for getting DS to the bus every morning, recognizing that this was a change in HIS schedule, too, and that it meant a great deal to me to be able to go into work a little early.

I don't like Salmon but swap that out with chicken and we have a meal. Wait I don't like mushrooms either. Can you sub asparagus on that. Nd not big into couscous can you make it rice.

I am glad you are feeling better. YOu need to follow the professional advice you are getting.

The PA behavior is something you should be aware of.

For me I LB'd when confronted with the PA behavior. So being aware might help you not LB.

Part of both is losing expectations.

I know it is hard to do anything without some expectations. I personally find it almost impossible.(lol) whether my expectations are good or bad we all have them.

IE I have..... they should.....

It is more like I have...... boy I feel good about that.

Hope that make sense.

So that's a chicken and rice with Asparagus (maybe a little white vino?)

AS for the LB behavior, it's something that I have been looking at, but I have never written instances down and examined them and then tried to find a behavior to replace it. Jennifer said that it's good to recognize the behavior and stop it, but it is imperative that the behavior be replaced with another, in order to keep communication going.

She also mentioned that I'm probably feeling frustrated because there has been no just compensation for the infidelities and lies. I told her that I have, basically, accepted that he may never do this.

Jennifer said that we will revisit his level of commitment at a later date; that IF I do these things and make the changes I have been working on more permanent behaviors, and PWC does not respond, we will have to mull that over. To me, that meant that it would be decision time. I'm not sure what decision could be made beyond Plan B AGAIN.
I honestly could not say how I would feel at that point, BUT, since we're not anywhere near that point, I'm not going to think on it any further.

As for expectations, I think they, generally, cause more harm than good. It takes away part of acceptance when you inject expectation into the mix. I have dropped many of my expectations, recognizing that I need to see WHAT IS, not what I want or need, in PWC.

I never understood one day at a time as well as I do now.

SL,

No white wine my wife is an alcoholic.

I mean I feel like a slacker. I cooked grilled chicken. With Spinach sauteed in onions, garlic and chicken stock(used to use wine) with angel hair pasta. Little fresh parmesan and fresh cracked pepper and red peppers. Oh well I will strive to be you at a later date.

Like I said for me I can see the LB's coming on my end a mile away. Still to this day. I had a tit for tat mentality. Not realizing "the triggers".

Now I know them. I know the trigger. I am aware and now I can deal with it more appropriately. In my case they were very sneaky so it took a while.

It is difficult to do though because "some of the triggers may be things he does". You are responsible for YOUR actions at these times.

I will try to give an example:
My FWW and I disagreed about something in regards to the kids attire.
She went and got it for OS anyway. I wanted to discuss the situation and find a solution.
My FWW starts off by explaining her side and saying, it is ridiculous that I think that it is wrong, thats what kids wear. She used the word ridiculous 3 or 4 times.

Now I was upset she just called me ridiculous and in the past now we moved off the topic and on to her calling me ridiculous, disrespectful judgement. Then I would get mad and possibly LB.

Now I say "it is not productive for you to say things like that. You made a decesion I was opposed to and I feel that is disrespectful. If she continues to say it is ridiculous, which she did, I keep saying the same thing.

Again in the past I would LB her back. Drop some DJ's on her. It is counter productive though.

Knowing though that when going into the situation I may get triggered to DJ or LB helps.

I love the advice.

There are all kinds of decesions that could be made. Plan B, Plan D who knows.

The point is you aren't even to the point that a decesion is necessary.

My Mom's advice was "you will know when" if it becomes necessary.

You need to be 100% sure it is the right decesion for a while.