SB, that's fabulous. I've "tried on" different religions throughout my life, just to see if God felt any different. He didn't.

Schoolbus, I think I understand what you are trying to say, and in general I don't have a "problem" with it. Our relationship with God, through Christ, IS supposed to be a personal "one on one" relationship, and God DOES know the condition of our hearts.

In other things that you said, I would, perhaps, have a differing "take" on what God has told us in His Word. Ultimately, for all believers, it is God's Word that is our our "guide" in all matters. Differing "interpretations" or "opinions" need to be examined BY the Scripture to determine which is "right" and which is "wrong," which may be a "better, more 'in line' with all of Scripture," than may be others. Some things are "non-negotiable" (such as Christ being the ONLY way to obtain salvation) and others God has not chosen to reveal, or to reveal fully to us (such as when Christ will return or the precise relationship of the Tribulation to believers being here or "raptured").

The Word of God IS God speaking to us and telling us what is important to Him, and what He wants us to know, first to bring us an understanding of HOW we are saved and reconciled to Him and then, how we are to conduct our lives in all aspects, including worship of Him and instruction to other who may not be as "mature" in the faith, in order to advance the process of our individual Sanctification.




Sounds like pretty good "ballbpark" to me.





All believers should be humbled, as should be all people, at the greatness of our Creator God and at the mercy of God to us. "Pride in self" should be one of the first "casualties" of people who have been saved by the Grace of God and what Jesus did for us, humbling His will to the Father's will so that we COULD be saved from God's just wrath for our sins. Pride is at the root of most things that we struggle with our entire lives. It IS the root cause of all evil, beginning with Lucifer.




I would agree with part of this and disagree with part of this. God IS "into" your soul and your relationship with Him as His adopted child and the bride of His Son. There is, imho, no doubt about that.

But God IS also interested in HOW we worship Him and that we do not fall into "idol worship," as that, too, is an abomination to God. Many times in the Scripture God warned His people that they were allowing "bad things" to go on in their worship of Him and in their teaching to others. So it is clear from Scripture that in God's mind there are "right ways" and "wrong ways" to worship Him corporately and individually, as well as right and wrong things to teach others, so that error or even heresy doesn't get taught or tolerated among believers.

When "things" are taught that are in error, God IS very concerned about the impact that it can have on others, including the impact that it can have on our own relationship with Him, because God cannot tolerate sin of any kind, but especially not willful sin against His commands and teaching by those to profess to "know God."

The primary purpose of corporate worship, "church going" if you will, is first to be obedient to God's command to "not forsake the gathering together of the saints." Second, it is to Worship God as the primary activity of that "gathering together." Third, it is to receive instruction from God, through a faithful expositor of His Word, so that we will be able to know what God HAS said and how we can better conform our thoughts and life to one that is more and more "Christ-like."

Between our own study of His Word and in the faithful exposition of His Word by others who may be more "mature in the faith," God teaches us both what His will is AND how to recognize "error" and "false teaching." Furthermore, it helps us to "put on the full armor of God" because ALL believers WILL be attacked by the "forces of evil," both spiritual and within a fallen creation.





Okay, this is what can be a very sensitive issue to many people. For example, I "could" enter a Catholic church and worship God because I have a "comfort" with my own knowledge of God and what "error" is, even if it's being taught or practiced around me. But I don't enter a Catholic church to worship because there is the implication of being in agreement with the teachings of that Church that could affect others who do not have the knowledge or discernment of what the Sriptures have actually taught.

Not to "pick on Athanasius," but one of the "reasons" he stated for preferring the RCC is because of the "Traditions." Traditions are fine so long as they are in agreement with God's Word, but if they are not, then "traditions" should not be followed. How do "traditions" that may have started out attempting to be faithful to God "stray" into error, perhaps even falsehood? Through the actions of MEN, changing things to meet their own desires and the way that THEY want things to be rather than submitting their will to God's will.

This idea is very similiar to the "objections" that the Jews raised with Jesus. "We have Moses and the Law and this is the way we have always done it." Everytime there is a "disagreement" over traditions, opinions, etc. the believer SHOULD go directly to the source for understanding and mediation of the issue, and that source IS the Word of God itself. The inspired and inerrant Word of God IS the authority, not any interpretation or preference of Man.

Hence, there ARE differing "schools of thought" regarding the "ways of Man" and how they seek to be knowledgeable about, and obedient to, God's revealed Word.




The Word of God is the answer. There is no "More Christian than the next" in the sense that a saved person is saved BY God and by God's will and not anyone else. In that respect, the thief on the cross who was saved is no better than Peter or Paul, or you or me. It is GOD who justifies, not us.

However, there IS also a "difference" between believers that relates to the "maturity" in the faith. There are "babes" in Christ and there are "old ones" in the faith. The analogy is similar to the human aging process. AGE ALONE is not the determinant of "maturity in Christ." Just as in our natural life, maturity comes from learning, applying, and leading a humbled life. Unlike God, we DON'T know everything. But God HAS revealed some things to us by way of the Word of God SO THAT we can learn and attain to a maturity in the faith. Remember, many outside of Christianity like to accuse believers of "having lost their minds" and of "following blindly" the "Christian message of the Good News." Nothing is further from the truth than those sorts of accusations. God has commanded us to love Him with all of our heart, soul, AND MIND. We do NOT "abandon rational thought." We are told to "put on the full armor of God," and that begins with learning WHAT that armor is and why it is even needed.

"Do not be deceived..." is both a command and a warning.

There ARE, unfortunately, many who "deceive" others both unintentionally through "blind following" and intentionally through "erroneous teaching." Some even deceive others others for their own purposes, purposes which are anything but "Godly" in intention. (That is what I think is a prime motivator for what MEDC was addressing and why he is so upset that "those who should know better" do not seem to be willing to call "sin" a "sin" and demand it NOT be tolerated at all within the "church.")

So, it IS important that we know what the Scripture does teach, so that we can make better choices in where we worship and what is being taught to us and to others that is according to God's will IN the Scripture. THAT is where there are significant differences between the "denominations," most pointedly between the RCC and Protestantism that came out of the Reformation that stressed God's Word as the authority for believers.


"It bothers me, frankly. Because I don't, no, I can't, buy into it. That is why I say that I don't affiliate with a "denomination". "

I understand what you are saying. By the same token, you should be bothered whenever the truth of God is "twisted" to serve the purposes of Man, rather than the purposes of God. It's easy to see that in some things, such as people who claim to be Christians but who deny the deity of Christ or Jesus' physical resurrection from the dead. It's harder to do with groups who do claim to believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He did rise from the dead to provide salvation to us. Understanding those differences requires that WE understand the Scripture ourselves, and that comes from diligent study, not "following blindly."

God bless.

ERRRRRRRR.....
FH, I think you need to edit this as I have never posted on this thread,

All Blessings,
Jerry

Sorry Jerry. I've had you on my mind lately and had a memory lapse while posting. I've gone back and corrected.

Thanks for pointing it out.

FH,

Thanks for your POV. I understand your positions well, having been schooled in much the same doctine.

It has not given me peace before. Because, I believe God will accept Catholics into heaven.

JMHO.

In my journey, I have found peace with many things, and my "denomination" now is somewhat more......eclectic.

Christian, yes. Eclectic, though.

I guess I've just experienced far too many exclusionary churches, who believe theirs is the one and only way to God. Yet, next block down, there is that next church that preaches that theirs is the one and only way. They worship Jesus, God, one and the same. Just different rituals. I came to understand that God isn't caught up in these types of minor details - and no, they don't worship idols. (That's not what I was talking about.)

So I personally cast off denominations. My church "affiliation" was lost to me, because I walked away. There was so much legalism, so much criticism within the congregation of this person, that group, the next church, not being as "Christian" as this one or that one. Because of the rituals. Only God knows the heart. Only He knows who is Christian or not.

I personally don't see the ability to quote a scripture chapter and verse as making someone a "Christian", because there are plenty of non-believers who can do this. There are plenty of illiterates who are believers, and good Christians. There's more to it than what can be written, or sent down in a dictate by a church leader. I personally was judged as "not Christian enough", yet not one person from my church ever once, in three years' time, NOT ONCE, invited me to their home, for coffee, for anything at all....until they all invited themselves to my home to use my swimming pool after 3 years time - for a huge church party (and this, they said, because "there wasn't anywhere else to have it that had a pool"). Why? Because my husband did not attend! This made ME not a "good enough Christian" in their judgement. So ultimately, after three years of trying, I left that church.

I went every single Sunday and Wednesday. Participated in many volunteer activities, and other activities. Yes, I did invite others to my home, without success.

I can speak of other experiences. Other churches. This is just one. But over many years, I have found that organized religion has tended to lead me to a place that is not of peace.

Now, I am happy with where I am, and what I do for "religion". With my "rituals".

God knows my heart. In this, I am at peace.

SB

It sounds as though you are in good place, schoolbus.

For what it's worth, I am a member of a nondenominational bible church where the Word is faithfully preached and the folks are very caring.

Will some Catholics be in heaven? imvho, yes. Will some not be? yes.

Will some Protestants be in heaven? yes. Will some not be? yes.

Jesus will be the judge no matter what we or any "religion" thinks.

The "problem" with many religious denominations, imho, is that they stress "form" over substance. The bigger the denomination, the bigger the inertia and the harder it is to change directions. Once error gets a foothold, it's very easy to slide down the slippery slope to more error, and even eventually to apostasy.

Having personally experienced some similar things to which you experienced, I sometimes find myself wondering that when Jesus returns, will He find any true faith remaining? He will, I know that, but I lament how far so many have strayed from the faith both in allowing error to be taught instead of the Word of God and in a "judgmental zealousness" that winds up attacking brothers and sisters who may be "weaker in the faith," but nonetheless IN the faith.

Human emotions and human weaknesses all too often get in the way of The Way.

God bless.

Schoolbus is correct in her assumption that all relgious hierachy have denegrated, rather than elevating, God's word.

We have been led astray by the very leadership of the church(s) that we have choosen to follow. The lambs asnd the sheep have been scattered and lost as the result of beligerent and dishonest leaders in our church. How Christ must suffer, once again, to have to witness this!

We have somehow taken His Cross and shatered it into a thousand pieces. What a sad commentary. We can't, as Christians, even decide on what date of the year to celebrate Easter. This division amounst us is viewed as an indescribable sin amounst all christians. It is an example of the apostacy of the times we live in.

Would that we at least come to the same conclusion with that, Christ would do the rest. But, Alas, we can't even do that.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Jerry, I am unclear as to what leader(s) or church(s) you are referring to. There are many that have fit your description, but not ALL. I know several that have faithfully preached the Word. Perhaps you could be a little more specific about which churches you are thinking about and in what ways they have led their flocks astray.

It is difficult, if not impossible, to agree or disagree with generalities. The only thing I can say with certainty is that it is not "all."

I think there are plenty of religious "leaders", of many faiths, who have lead their flocks astray. Need we name them?

I can think of Muslims, Jews, Protestants, Catholics, Hindus, Buddhists.......all men (or women) who began in a faith, with intentions of that faith (I choose to believe their intentions began as good), but I think that money, power, or fame, or something like that helped them choose another path to somewhere other than the "enlightened" goal - that of the goodness God intended them to lead their flock towards. It happens in all faiths. We don't need to argue about this - there's evidence in the news daily of corruption and greed under the banner of any faith that can be named. And evidence of corruption and greed under the banner of the faithless as well.


As to the point about in-fighting about things - shinethrough, you made it exactly! When I talked about the "rituals", I was talking about exactly those things - the different denominations making big deals about how we "do" things, I don't think God really cares if we celebrate Easter on this Sunday or that Tuesday ----- REALLLYYYYYYY ----- but that WE WORSHIP and CELEBRATE the risen Savior.

Because without the Resurrection, Easter would have been just another day.

That's why I get so frustrated with the dogmatics - the rituals. Because it isn't so much in whether I praise Him on the right Sunday on bended knee turned to page 183 in the correct book facing the right altar with the right clothes on looking at the right gender person leading me in the right responsive reading with the right decorations in the building...

It is what is in my heart on which God will judge me.

I will work daily to aim for purity there. To live my life in the manner He expects of me.

I have found peace with this.

And there are so many valuable "rituals" which have helped me get there, that one "church" or "denomination", well, it hasn't yet come along to meet my needs.


Besides, every church I have been to so far has a regular pot-luck luncheon thing - and I don't cook!!!!! Can't just one lousy church be declared POT LUCK LUNCHEON FREE???? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

SB

schoolbus, what is the "path" and what is the "enlightened goal" that is what God intended for all of mankind? What is the "goodness God intended them to lead their flock towards"?

According to the Word of God it is one thing, and you stated it later in your post. It is that WE WORSHIP and CELEBRATE the risen Savior" Jesus Christ as our own personal Lord and Savior.

To that end, and consistant with the allegation that "all" leaders have been "bad" and "led their flocks" in the wrong direction, I am curious about your "lumping" decidedly non-Christian faiths as "examples" of those who have led people astray or who's faith has been "corrupted" from the original intent of their founders with being the "same as" the Christian faith. They are NOT, and never were, Christian. Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists were not Christian.

You ascribe some "goodness" to them that does not exist in the context of what you later stated as the "goal" of God.

"I can think of Muslims, Jews, Protestants, Catholics, Hindus, Buddhists.......all men (or women) who began in a faith, with intentions of that faith (I choose to believe their intentions began as good), but I think that money, power, or fame, or something like that helped them choose another path to somewhere other than the "enlightened" goal - that of the goodness God intended them to lead their flock towards."

Schoolbus - are you saying that the GOAL of God is for men to work for "goodness" in men and toward men? "Goodness," according to the Scripture, will not save anyone. If THAT was the goal of God, there would have been no need for Jesus and His sacrifice for a totally fallen and depraved Mankind. So I guess the question really is WHAT is the purpose of Man that God created and what is the only way that God established as the only way that purpose could be accomplished?


"It happens in all faiths. We don't need to argue about this - there's evidence in the news daily of corruption and greed under the banner of any faith that can be named. And evidence of corruption and greed under the banner of the faithless as well."

This "corruption" you speak of confirms the reality of evil in the world, the fallen nature of man, and the struggle against the "flesh" that all mankind faces everywhere. But is it not an indictment of all Christian faith.





Schoolbus, you are right about this in the respect that we are to worship God daily in our own lives. We ARE commanded to "not forsake the gathering togethering of the saints(believers in Christ)," and that means what has come to be known as "church."

There are, however, some things that are "done" in church that ARE according to God's teaching and some things that are done in some churches that are contrary to God's teaching. The "Lord's Supper" is but one example I could cite.

But the "purpose" of some "rituals" if you want to call the format of a service a "rituals," are to worship God and to faithfully teach the Word of God to the people. Part of being a Christian is to faithfully and humbly OBEY all the commands of God, and that includes the faithful gathering together of the saints.

Some things, like Christmas and Easter, are to point us to Christ, and are established to be as close as possible to the original actual "time of year" when those events took place. We do these things in rememberance of God and Christ, not as "holy days" unto themselves.




And there may never be one to "come along and meet my needs" so long as it is YOUR needs that are the primary criteria. The real criteria should be God's needs don't you think? So might you actually be substituting your "needs" and "feelings" instead of simply obedience to God and using that as an excuse to NOT find a church to faithfully attend that DOES worship God and provide sound biblical, exegetical teaching to the flock, for the very purpose you stated earlier, the "goal" that God intended?

"Besides, every church I have been to so far has a regular pot-luck luncheon thing - and I don't cook!!!!! Can't just one lousy church be declared POT LUCK LUNCHEON FREE???? "

While I know you meant this to humorous, there is also an attitude in there of the "church" meeting your criteria rather than meeting God's criteria.

Applying this "logic" to whether or not attend a church, I could, for example, lament that all churches "require" singing as part of their "rituals." Since I can't carry a tune if my life depended upon it (tone deaf), I could use my inability to sing as a reason to be "offended" by the "ritual" of singing hymns and use that as an excuse to not attend a church. Does one HAVE to have singing in a church? Not really, but we are told to "make a joyful noise unto the Lord," to "praise God with psalms and hymns," to "sing unto the Lord," and most humans prefer to hear a voice that can carry a tune over one that cannot. That's even true outside of churches. "American Idol" is but one example I can think of "outside of the church."

Eating, fellowshipping, etc. are normal functions we do in and out of church, and MOST churches that I know of that have "pot luck" luncheons or dinners DO NOT require someone to "cook" something. They can just as easily bring something from a store or food vendor. In fact, most DO NOT require someone to bring anything if they can't. They DO NOT "limit" the eating to those who have "earned" a place at the table by bringing something to share with others. But they DO the sharing as another form of obedience to God in sharing what God has provided. Who "prepared the food" is not the issue if one does not like to cook. Besides, how many MEN, myself included, actually do the cooking of what they bring to a pot luck fellowhip?

The "point" is NOT the food, it is the fellowship and sharing time together. Ultimately, though, no one is "required" to attend any "pot luck." Thankfully, also, no one has to worry about my bringing salmonela tainted food either, because I don't cook.




Turning serious again, THIS is exactly the point for each and every one of us on earth. And the "what" is Jesus Christ and nothing else. That alone "excludes" the "goodness" theory, as well as all Faiths that deny Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the Savior for all who believe and accept Him as their Lord and Savior, don't you think?.

God bless.

FH,

First off, I think you misunderstood....

"To that end, and consistant with the allegation that "all" leaders have been "bad" and "led their flocks" in the wrong direction"

I did not mean that "ALL" leaders lead their people astray. What my sentence meant was that "all the people [I had listed] were men (and women) who began with good intentions.... " Not that ALL religious leaders were bad people.

Things sometimes get lost in this medium.

I brought up the other religions for the purpose of illustration - and because there is a tendency to immediately jump on the idea that there is "Christian bashing", which, by the way, you did tend to take to heart in one of your posts (you wanted someone to name names of religious leaders who were corrupt, and I read that as somewhat defensive on your part). That's why I brought up other religions, and also stated that we did not need to name names - because there are plenty of bad leaders of all faiths out there - that was my point of the paragraph. The point of the paragraph certainly was NOT that ALL religious leaders are bad. Anything of that sort would be ridiculous, to say the least, and illogical, which I am not.

The thing you did with your point about the potlucks is one of the reasons I stopped going to the church I had been going to.

Truth there, sorry.

You took a joke about pot lucks and made it a religious argument about why I am not a good Christian. You made my point for me about why I cannot find a church that meets "my needs". Because I need a church with people who do not judge my every move, who do not read into the fact that I make a joke, and who do not quote religious doctrine when I state that I don't want to go to a pot luck luncheon, and then make point after point about how it is not in line with God's teachings for me not to go to the pot luck (or whatever it is!!!!).

You see, I found it tedious that just about everything, including jokes, could be turned around and made about how "bad" a Christian someone was. It was tiring and frankly, became upsetting to me, that so many people in the churches I have attended spent so much time talking about the other people and how they behaved, and judging their "Christianity". And events very similar to your post have occured in every church I've attended - whether aimed at me, or others in the church. I know you did not intend to judge me, but the problem is that this type of thinking just destroys churches, and it hurts people every day - because one person says "she didn't go to the pot luck, and God wants her to felllowship, and she isn't doing that" and the next thing you know, I'm not a good Christian.

I just cannot take it. This is what I'm talking about, or a lot of it, when I say "meeting my needs".

I've gotten past the issues of whether or not I need to kneel or which day Easter is on.

What I cannot get past is the picayune nature of people who believe it is their duty to tell me that I am not a good Christian, because they believe they know me, my mind, my heart, and my relationship with God, based on whether or not I go to a pot luck, sing well, or quote by chapter/verse at the right time - and they feel the need to tell me about it, without ever taking the time to get to know me.

You remember, not one single time - at any of the churches I have attended - have I been invited to the home of ANY parishoner.

So how could they POSSIBLY know anything about what kind of Christian I am?

They do not know me.

Please do not judge what you believe you know about my Christianity based on a web posting.

Like I said, I have not yet found a church that suits my needs, because there has not yet been ONE CHRISTIAN who has shown himself or herself to be open enough to fellowship

with me.

I have invited others to my home. No one has ever accepted. I have joined choir, Christmas pageant, Bible study, Sunday School, Vacation Bible School volunteer, Youth Group volunteer, and other groups to try. Like I said, not once was I invited to join others in anything that was not a part of the organized activities. Not one out-of-church "fellowship" opportunity invitation.

And when my husband came down with cancer, only one man came to visit (by accident - he came to see why my husband was not riding the Harley lately).

So no, just one organized church/denominatino doesn't meet my needs. There are other ways to fellowship, however, besides going to one same church every Sunday. I went yesterday. Just not the same old one. And next week? It won't be the same old one as this week either, most likely.

You are very knowledgeable about the Bible, and about Christianity. But I don't think you understand much about people who are not in with "the in crowd" at church. We are the people who come in, we are there for awhile, but then we disappear. Don't you wonder about us?????

We disappear for a reason. Maybe someone should ask us why that is.

I could tell you why. And it has nothing to do with my love of God.

I am not worried about my relationship with God. God is not worried about saving my soul - it is already His.

schoolbus, you may think I misunderstood you, but that is not the case. However, it is equally evident that you misunderstood, or didn't read carefully, what I wrote.




I NEVER said you were a "bad" Christian. I personally don't care if you never go to a "potluck" dinner. It has no bearing on being a "good" or a "bad" Christian. All it is is one opportunity for fellowship among many different opportunities. I can tell you that I have never, and never will, participate in a Choir practice. That doesn't make me "bad" or a "good" Christian even though it IS one area of fellowship for many.


With respect to your bitterness about not being invited to anyone's home, I can understand that causing bitterness in you. Without knowing more about you personally, your history of involvement in churches, the "types"(denomination, etc.), I cannot comment.

The only comment I could offer, based solely upon what you have written, is that it sounds as though you are a "visitor" to churches, but you don't stay long enough to get to know anyone. If that is the case, it may be as simple as people not getting to know you well enough to invite you over to their home or it may be that you are just not at a particular church long enough to "get noticed" as more than just a casual visitor.

A church is also a "family of believers" and functions such as "pot luck dinners" are merely invitations to the family to have a "family gathering," usually AT the "family house" that many may think of as the "church's house," as it if belongs to the leaders of the church. In reality, the church is just a building and the "church" really is all the believers who gather there for corporate worship and fellowship with other believers.

Regardless, some people, and you may be one of them, LIKE to visit other people's homes. I personally don't care much for it unless I have gotten to know them from other associations, such as Sunday School, Care Groups, etc. Different people like and/or dislike "visiting." I know one thing that several families like to do is a "progressive dinner" sort of thing. That can be fun too, but it usually needs some familiarity with the people who would be participating.




I would submit that it is sin that causes the problems. And gossiping is a sin, plain and simple. If someone actually accused you of being a "bad Christian" because you didn't attend a "potluck," then you have every right to be upset with them. If you are "imagining" that is what they are "thinking," then the problem may be with the "mindreading skills" or your "feelings" rather than in fact. I don't know which it might be, but regardless NO ONE is a "bad Christian" if they "don't do this or that."

The fellowshipping that is important is the fellowshipping that the Scripture describes, and it's not important for God, it's important for us to BE with fellow believers and not isolated if at all possible.

I really admire you, Schoolbus.

Schoolbus, what you call a "joke" does not appear to be a "joke" to you. You cite it as an example of "uncaring" or "hypocritical" Christians from your perspective, how you see it. As I SAID, I understood your attempt to portray it as "humorous," but that I also understood that it was "not a joke" to you personally. Please don't try to tell me that I am "judging" you as being a "bad Christian." You are putting words in my mouth when you do that that are NOT what I said. That, too, is the truth.




Yes, schoolbus, "things" can get "lost" in this medium. Words HAVE meanings and the meaning of "All" IS ALL, unless the writer takes the time to fully explain what they meant, what they intended, and NOT expect the reader to "read their minds" to determine what the real intention was. Expecting someone else to KNOW what you are thinking when you write something that has a well recognized meaning to everyone, such as the word "all," IS illogical. To "chastise" someone for responding to what WAS written and not to what you may have been "thinking," is hardly a "Christian" perspective that you are writing about. I've recently gone through just that sort of thing on another thread where "Christian doctrines" were invited to be discussed and then got slammed for NOT restricting it to just "Catholic" doctrines, as if ONLY Catholic doctrines were "Christian." Again, what WAS posted was apparently NOT what the the poster "intended" to say. That, too, is the truth.




So if I understand what you wrote correctly, the PURPOSE of your "doing" those things was to GET something in return? The purpose was to get an invitation to someone's home? I have to admit that it seems confusing to me since the "motivation" for service IS service to God and using the "talents" that God has given us. I don't "do" choir because I can't sing. I would dearly love "serve God" with my voice, in singing, but that is a "thorn" that I have to live with because I can't do that. Though I don't know for certain, it IS also possible that God did not give me a "singing voice" so that the focus of what I do "do" is not on me but is on Him. Even if I am not "perfect" in all that I do, and I am not, the motivation of all service should be "service to God" and not "what's in it for me," if you understand what I am trying to say. That is NOT some "attack" or "indictment" of you or your standing with God. It is speaking to what you said, that YOU seemed to equate the things you did with what you would receive in return for that service.

Now I don't, and can't, know the circumstances of where you did all those things, for example, if it was in one church or in several. I don't know if you were a member of the church, a regular attender, or a sometimes visitor. But suffice it to say you may have a NEED for "one on one, in your home and in the home of another believer's home" fellowship. Others may not have that same "need." That doesn't make either one of you a "bad Christian." I would submit that many do not make it a "practice" to invite people into their home, rightly or wrongly, because they don't like "entertaining" or some other reason why they would be uncomfortable with people coming to their home. But if it IS a need of yours, TELLING people that you have that need is one way to let others KNOW that you, as a fellow believer, have a need that they can help you with.




Again, I don't know the circumstances. I have gathered from your posting that your husband may not be a believer, and if that is so, many people are very reluctant to be "churchy" around someone who is sick who is not a believer. However, there ARE some who SHOULD visit even if the person who is sick is an unbeliever, especially if the spouse is a believer and attending or a member of the church, and you have made them aware of your husband's illness. The reason is simple, caring for you, supporting you, and perhaps even having the opportunity to talk with someone about Christ and what comes after this life. Assuming you DID make them aware of it, someone, Pastor, Deacon, etc. should have taken the time to visit your husband and you in your home or in the hospital. If that did not happen, I would question the "caring" nature of that particular church and the issue of "form over substance," and would understand how you took the lack of a visit as a personal affront.




Believe it or not, schoolbus, my talking with you is just with that very intention, to "get to know you" and what you believe. That you are hurting and angry about things is a given. You feel what you feel. But unless you talk about what you do believe and what you think a "good" or a "bad" Christian should be from your perspective, there is no way for me, or anyone, to "get to know you" through "mind reading." Obviously, you DO think many of the believers you have been around have been "bad Christians" because of various ways that you use to measure "good and bad," but as you said, none of that has any bearing on anyone's personal relationship with God. All that I am saying is that if you use those things as an excuse to NOT find a good, solid, local church (or even start one if you are of a mind to begin a group that might develop into a "church"), you are potentially depriving yourself OF the fellowship that could develop. It sort of like the difference between having a lot of "acquaintances" versus a "few close friends," if you understand what I am trying to say.

No one, least of all me, is "judging" you or your relationship with God. Discussion of ideas, even of opposing ideas, is NOT "judging," it is how we gain understanding and consider "ideas." And that IS the truth.

God bless.

FH,


I am the world's leading expert in what I think.

(That's a joke.)

Anyway, my explanation of what I meant by "all" is exactly what I meant by "all". Nothing else. Take it for what it is.

I was a member of one particular church most recently for three years. I attended regularly. It was my unfortunate situation as a child growing up to move quite a lot, therefore, I changed churches frequently. I was the only member of my family who attended. I went to church alone every single Sunday from the time I can remember until I was a teenager, and we lived too far from town for me to walk to church (I did not drive until I was 18). If you know my background from my posts, I am from an abusive home, and this should let you know that my faith was important to me. I had to walk myself - there is no way anyone would have driven me - so I just chose the nearest church. So, whatever was closest got my money and my attendance.

I joined many groups, in particular in the church that I attended for three years most recently. Not for the singular purpose of trying to get invitations places, no. But for the purposes of serving, and because of the meaningful fulfilment that giving provides in the lives of the giver and receiver. It is the nature of who I am. I give in my profession, I give in my private life (because what I do for a living allows me to provide a helpful and needed service in my private life as well - for free, to the needy).

I have found the church life tedious. Because I found the problems within the congregation to be difficult - especially being preached at about my perceived lacking of some sort of level of Christianity that did not meet the apparent needs of others. I say that I was not invited to the homes of others because there were frequent events, church-sponsored, which were "couples-only" - and among my Sunday school classmates.......I was the only singleton who attended and they knew it, frequently commenting on it, and asking why I did not "make" my husband attend. Also, it seems as though there were so many other at-home events, parties, etc., that were invitations to ladies that in one way or another were made clear that I was not to attend. This is difficult to explain, but trust me, it was clear that if you were not part of the "group" you were not invited.

When I speak of "good" or "bad" Christians, it isn't something that I am making up. There seems to be some sort of an unwritten rating scale I am not privvy to - and somehow I must rank low on the "how Christian is schoolbus" rating scale. This has been brought to my attention publicly once too many times in church. This question can be asked by humans, and that's fine. God does not ask it, however, He knows.

As far as the visitors after my husband's cancer, it was all very strange. People wanted to visit me after my surgery (I have had several very bad years), and only one person came to see me after all. I was grateful for his visit. But when my husband's cancer happened, it seemed nobody called. When the one man happened by, it was very strange - he told others, who did not call, and then when I spoke with them later they acted funny. All knew what was going on, the prayer list and requests, etc. It was all odd.

Anyway, after 50 years of working at it, I have come to find that "churches" don't really work for me.

One of the reasons is because of the problems I encounter when even trying to talk with people I consider "hard-hitting" in the religious sense, regardless of the denomination. Because people who have such strict beliefs, such strong and dogmatic beliefs, do come off as judgmental. It is very difficult to talk with people like this, because they quote scriptures, tell me everything I do "wrong", and don't really hear what I have been through. What has and hasn't worked for me, and WHY it hasn't worked. What they tell me is why I am doing the wrong thing, and what I need to do to be a better Christian.

What they do not hear is,

I have been there, and done that.

But the CHURCH IS NOT MEETING MY RELIGIOUS NEEDS.


I want to talk with people about religion, yes. WITH people, who are willing to listen too. Sharing ideas. I need leadership that connects with me on an intellectual level, and I do not find that. The rituals are a part of it, but not the most important part. The spiritual part is what the church has missed me on!!!!


And yes, my rituals are NOT exactly the same as yours, or the next person's. And I would expect that nobody's is the same as mine, or their neighbor's, not exactly.

I do NOT attend the exact same church every single Sunday.

I say different prayers for different things.


BUT!!!!!

I have found a HUGE array of friends in my small town.

I now have a wider variety of people to discuss my religious beliefs among.

I have realized that seeking God can be found in many different churches, with different rituals - but He finds us there somehow, and lots of other people, everywhere two or more are gathered in His name.

And I don't have to deal with the things that have caused me so much hurt and pain to me - that unwritten scale that people seem to keep rating me on. It's just something I don't handle well. I can't compare to the "good" Christians in the church, the "in crowd", the deacons, their wives, the leaders, etc. I'm just one of those who keeps disappearing ------ and the leaders keep wondering why.

There are many, many, many, many, more like me out here, FH.

More than you could ever count.

There is a family of believers out here who don't feel at home in church.

It isn't because we have lost our faith in God.

SB

schoolbus, would it surprise you if I said that what you have described doesn't surprise me? There is far too much of what you describe going on in far too many churches. Would it surprise you to know that I was kicked out of a church last July so that the leadership could do what it wanted without any "opposition" to their methods?

You see, the "problem" that is happening in far too many churches today is a shifting of "thee" to "me." The concern for others is too often "measured" by what can you do for the church, rather than what can the church do for you. Too often it can become "program" oriented where the "program" is the most important, where the "numbers" become the measure and that as long as the numbers are going up, then "everything is fine." But the real role, imho, for the church, besides worshipping God, is that of making disciples. That's much more of a "one on one" sort of thing because everyone is at "different points" in their growth and maturity in the faith. If all the focus, for example, is on "winning new souls," once that goal has been met, then what? If all the focus is on "growing the church membership," people can easily get "lost" in the crowd.

People who don't "feel at home in church" may feel that way for many reasons, obviously. But in a "good church" people are made to feel welcome. There are not "clicks," per se. Oh sure, there may be members who are more comfortable with some others, but they don't set up "exclusive clubs." They make people feel welcome and try to get to know folks. If a church is large enough to have Deacons, then each Deacon is assigned a "Care Group" for just the reasons you talk about, to engage people on the individual level, not just the "at church" level. Even in bigger churches, if they are set up properly, they operate as if there were "small churches within the church." That's so that even though there may too many people to get to know everyone, everyone can be a part of the "smaller group" and get to know everyone in that "smaller group."

Finding a good church is not always an easy thing. Sometimes it takes a lot of visiting to find one.
But God usually has one "for you" where you will find the true "servants heart" as a guiding light of the church, and it will most often(though not always) be a smaller, nondenominational church. You may find greater "success" in such a church, if you can find one on your area.

God bless.

FH,

You hit the nail on the head with your description of the church problem. The problem I have been encountering at every church I've been to so far.

I so desire a church where the "clicks" are not clicks at all, where it doesn't matter what your income is, your clothing, whether or not your sons or daughters are popular at the local high school....

What matters is your desire to worship God, learn of his message. Grow in spirit. To seek His path, to find your spiritual connect to Him.

Maybe the problem is that I live in a rural area, and the churches here are either not large enough yet for the set-up of the very large churches with the Deacon-groups (I have seen this in some of the churches in the larger cities about two hours away that I have visited), or just not yet ready for change. It seems I find churches in many phases, some of which you have described to a "T".

And yes, it does take a lot of visiting to find one. I suppose I am still in that process! But I am still visiting, for whatever that is worth. I have not given up on that visiting process. For the time being, it works for me.

I understand the standpoint of "what's in it for me". I don't mean to come from that view - but there is a need in people when they go to church. The need to feel fulfilled in the process of worshipping God, that isn't being met by the churches that I have been to. That need, you sort of touched upon.

So many times, I am sitting in the service, feeling that the pastor is trying to recruit me - but I am already there. Something like, he is church-building, recruiting new members, trying to grow the membership. Don't get me wrong, there is a place for this. But it seems that so many churches, that each and every week, it is all about how big they can get, as opposed to how they can minister to the flock they already have. Or how they can build the understanding, the faithfulness, the body of the church before them who already attend.

I often felt as if - well, we have her in our "body count", let's move on and see if we can add someone new to our numbers this week!

But I needed more than that - I needed guidance, fulfillment, my thirst for the understanding and depth of knowlege of the message and the Word to be there for me.

It isn't there - not so far. I'm not quite sure why, either. I'm in need of spiritual discussions, emotional attachments within the church body of believers who can talk in-depth about more abstract beliefs, things beyond the quotations, the rituals. I want to sit in a room and have discussions about more than that, philosophy, religion, etc., like I would get at college - only the pastors are not ready to do this. I think that the parishoners, or many of us, would really thrive on it. Many of us are ready for it - we need more than the 10 minute "recruitment" drive on Sunday that passes for the sermon.

So you do understand a lot of what I'm talking about.

Thanks, FH.

You're okay in my book.

SB

Schoolbus - If you are looking for a church that will meet what you are looking for, and since you live in a more rural area, I would suggest that you begin with "independent" (i.e., independent Baptist, etc.) or "Bible" churches.

The starting point, however, is with your own beliefs. Where YOU stand on biblical doctrines will play a major role in finding a church that will fit your "needs," where you can become a participant both in giving and in receiving.

I don't know you well enough to advise in that area, but it is a crucial area, if for no other reason, than you will have "like-minded" members and leadership on the fundamental doctrines of the faith and their application to "church life." For example, there are many "churches" that I could never be a member of because of fundamental differences in beliefs (such as, for example, Eternal Security of the born again believer versus a belief that a believer can lose their salvation). Any church that you might be interested in, ask for a copy of their "Doctrine of Faith" and a copy of their church constitution. Those two things will tell a lot about the structure and beliefs of any church, and they can tell you if their is a "match" with your own beliefs or not.

With respect to the Deacon groups, every church no matter what it's size, should have something like Deacons who have a role in assisting the Pastor and the church membership. That is a different "office" than the office of Elder. In a small church, there may only be one Elder, the Pastor. In the church that I attend, which is a small church of maybe around 100 or less people, there are 2 Elders in addition to the Deacons. We don't need to go into the differences at this time, but just know that a church without Deacons, and possibly without Elders, is a church headed for trouble. The Pastor cannot handle everything by himself. Too many things "slip through the cracks" if there isn't the "support staff" to help "carry the load."

It is difficult to say much more because I don't know you well enough to know what you believe in and what sort of "church or denomination" you might best "identify" yourself with, nor do I what "types" of churches are available in a reasonably close proximity to where you live. It is "easier," obviously, to have the "out of church" fellowship that you crave if the church and it's members live in fairly close proximity to you.




Okay, I do understand what you are talking about here. First, let me say that if this is a major factor for you, there are two "musts" you need to be looking for in a church.

First, the preaching from the pulpit must be exegetical. This is what forms the foundation of a Pastor/Teacher. It focuses on the Scripture and interprets the Scripture, often verse by verse through a book.

Second, you need a church with Sunday School. Sunday school not only forms more of "small group" atmosphere that lends itself to more "one on one" relationships and getting to know others better, it is also more relaxed and can take the time to be more "in depth."

God bless.

SB... have you ever tried one of the Calvary Chapels?

here's a link...

http://www.calvarychapel.com/?show=Home

MEDC,

I have tried Calvary Chapels, yes. There are none out here in the boondocks where I live. The two I tried were ok, and did have a group that talked more philosophically. I did like that. They were, however, both in the grips of the "let's fill the pews and become megachurches" wave, and weren't great places to be. The focus of both churches were, just as FH described, were for the members to go out and bring in others. I wasn't in a place in my own abilities to do that (not sure that I am at this point, given the stressors in my life). Made for some difficulties in groups, with respect to expectations of membership especially.

Thanks for the advice, FH. You're right about the idea of discussing verses. I also enjoy it when there are smaller groups, when we can talk about verses in-depth. It's very hard, though, because the tendency of many churches in my area is that they follow scripted Sunday School lessons, and buy them from companies. It's odd - but they even share Vacation Bible School lessons together from church to church, and exchange stage props, costumes, and the like for the programs. Many of the kids will go from one VBS to the next, throughout the summer, and actually experience the same VBS program 4 or 5 times, once at the Methodist, twice at 2 different Baptist, etc.

I digress.....

I'm working on it. I'll find it, because I do still look. I figure, it becomes a "problem", if I stop looking.

SB