It appears that my WW is mentally ill. Something slipped upstairs and WW has progressed to a point where she has crossed a line mentally. Now that I am hearing stories from friends and family and neighbors about things WW has done and said through the years it looks like she has been on the edge for years. In the past year something snapped though. She's gone over the edge. So my question is:

Can she ever fully recover? This is more than depression we are dealing with. Do people that cross the line ever come back over?

There is a lady in my mom's neighborhood that struggles with mental illness and she is married with kids, but every now and then she snaps. She's never hurt anybody, but just kind of flips out every so often and ends up in the hospital.

My WW has had little breakdowns through the years and we have talked about getting her help, but I never did because she always bounced back as soon as she had the breakdown. I always took it as her needing to get it out. I never realized the severity of her mental condition. She is very smart and very educated. She functions normally when things are good, she just doesn't seem to have a coping mechanism when it comes to trauma, stress, depression, or anxiety and she flips out. Trauma from her past resurfaced a year ago and that combined with the stress of her job and the stress of raising a toddler just seemed to push her over the edge.

Any thoughts, I don't have any experience with this.

I am one of those privalidged few that grew up in an intact christian home with super mom and super dad with no drama, trauma, or real stress in my life. This is new to me. I guess that's why I never saw the signs.

You will need to know what her diagnosis is to get an understanding about the longterm picture ... Is that possible? Have you asked to go ~with her~ to one of her appointments???

((BC))

So sorry you are going through all this. I grew up in a family like yours-intact Christian home but I do have experience with mental illness-one of my dearest friends lived with us when she had a complete break from reality. I was the one who had to call her counselor and take her to the psych ward. It was a Godsend.

When you posted the information about your WW on your other thread, I was thinking of responding so now I am. I would go one step beyond and let her counselor know these things she has said. I would also get statements from the neighbors to let the Dr. know that others have observed this and actually brought her state of mind to your attention. In most states, if someone is considered a danger to themselves or others, they can be involuntarily committed so that they will get the initial treatment they need.

My friend had a history of abuse from childhood, and the things that triggered her breakdown were not necessarily related. It's as if the chemicals she needed in her brain for coping with stress were all used up in childhood. Thus, the break from reality. With psychiatric care, medications to get her past the crisis, counseling and now lifelong medications, she is GREAT!!!

She sees her need for medication as a diabetic who needs insulin. It's not a "personality flaw" or failure of some kind. Since our brains are very delicately balanced by natural chemicals, alterations in the chemisty can cause a lot of issues. When we are stressed, cortisol blocks the ability to remember and to learn. That's why after Dday I was such a space cadet and I typcially have an amazing memory. That's also why kids, when they are stressed from family and life events, often do poorly in school during that time. (I see this all the time with my students and I was prepared for it with my DS15 for this first semester of school).

The biggest thing for you to realize is that you are not the person who can help her in this. It will take intense professional help.

The lady in your neighborhood may know her warning signs, or her spouse and doctors do, so she ends up in the hospital when she needs to, before things spiral out of control, so to speak.

You could contact a mental health hotline and ask for information. Those are usually anonymous.

I hope this helps.

It depends on many factors.

The first factor is her actual diagnosis. It sounds like the illness is biologically based -- or characterized by an imbalance of chemicals in her brain. If that is the case, the medical field has made great strides in medications to stabalize the chemical balance in people's brains over the last 15-20 years. However, there is no "cure" and there are many people who, tragically, can not find the proper medication to help them.

So, like diabetes or any other chronic disease, there are treatments out there that are very effective for some people and but it is not a condition that ever just "goes away." Even if a diabetic is able to manage the disease through diet and go off medication, that doesn't mean that the chronic illness has gone away or that the person's liver functions normally.

You might try to frame this as though it is a chronic illness -- like diabetes. If your wife had diabetes, what expecations would have for her treatment, wellness, etc. For some reason, it's harder to grasp biologically based mental illnesses as not being a weakness of character, etc -- whereas we (our society) seems much more able to do that with something like diabeties or crones disease or .. any other chronic condition.


Once again, it depends on her diagnosis. Someone recently diagnosed with diabetes might have eaten normally all their life and now they have developed a condition and have to monitor and externally adjust their blood sugar.

Your wife may have developed a condition such that she now has to monitor and externally regulate the chemicals in her brain. Like a diabetic, with the proper medical attention to stabalize her and if she's willing to do the regime, she will function pretty normally. Also, like a diabetic, if she ignores her disease or refuses to do the proper self care, the results can be very bad for her health.


My suggestion to you is to find out (if you can) what her actual diagnosis is and educate yourself about it. I also suggest that you try to frame the diagnosis as a disease and not something that your wife choose or decided to do TO you -- anymore than if she'd been diagnosed with epilepsy, MS, or diabetes she would be having those illnesses to spite you. People sometimes get sick and it sucks. Blaming them for biologically based illnesses is ... well.. it's not productive.

I understand that your wife betrayed you by having an affair. Just try to remember that, if she's sick, she didn't betray you by having an illness. Ya know?

Unfortunately, there is a huge stigma attached to mental disorders -- even though we understand now that there are physical causes for these disorders (just like the ones for epilepsy, MS, or diabetes). I think that makes people who are afflicted have a much harder time managing their illnesses.


I understand and you NEED support with this. This illness is not your fault. This would be like blaming yourself for your wife getting some other chronic illness. Sometimes the signs aren't there until they're symptoms. If your wife was diagnosed with MS -- you wouldn't spend time dissecting your time together and wondering why you didn't predict it would happen, would you? You wouldn't need someone to blame, would you?

You might be devastated and sad -- and that's all normal -- but the truth is that this has happened. Now it's time to manage it. The best thing you can do is educate yourself about the facts (not myths) about her actual condition and prognosis. THEN make the best decision you are able to make for your child, yourself, and even your wife.

Just my $.02.

Mys

Pep,
She doesn't want me involved with her life any more. I'll try to get info from her Dr, but I don't think he will give it unless she authorizes it, which she won't. I'm going to check into any options I have, but it has been made clear to me that until medical professionals take her rights from her, I have no say so in anything. I will pass my info to MIL and her IC and hope for the best. About the only thing I can do right now is protect DS. So that's what I am doing.

John,
Thanks for the post. I need that knowledge to make my decisions. I think I answered your questions to Pep also. I have contact with her IC, but I don't know who her DR is. I'm hoping her IC does and he get in touch with him.

Thanks again

Then you're stuck. Her Dr's are ethically bound not to violate her privacy unless she consents or you have a court order (and you're not likely to get one of those).

Do you think her mother knows?


I hope for the best for you all, too.

I'm trying to ask this delicately but -- do you think your wife's reluctance to share medical information with you has to do with her perception that you'd use that information against her (in court or in your relationship)? I mean, it really might not be in her best interest (legally) to share this information with you if you're planning to use it in the divorce.

If so, maybe offering her assurances would help you get the information you need? Of course, that would depend on what you're willing to assure her of -- if you really are planning to use this information to get custody or something then you shouldn't tell her that you're not just to get the information.

Mys

Well ... take steps away from her ... you cannot help her unless she asks...

so sorry Cajun

Pep

I think she's playing her mom. I think she's playing me. I think she's playing everybody. So I'm with Pep. I can't talk to her about anything right now. Everything I say is taken as an attack on her. She feels completely entitled to do what she wants and expects everybody to understand and support her wishes. This includes suicide. So I am completely out of her loop. I am trying to gather info and relay info to the only people that CAN help her. Once I have done that I will walk away until/if she asks for help. As long as DS is protected what ever happens to her happens. I will no longer be a part of it. I am pretty much decided on my actions, the main reason for this thread was to find out if there's any hope for her ever getting healthy. MIL thinks the attempt was just depression from the breakup, she's still in denial about there being any real mental problems. She doesn't even think DS needs to be protected from WW. I am going to give her one last piece of info and if she balks at it, I'll let her know if something happens it's on her. There's nothing more I can do.

Does this mean you think she's faking and isn't really mentally ill?


What else can you do? It does sound to me from your other post as though she's at least getting treatment.


Again, depending on her diagnosis.

If it's something like bipolar (manic depression) then the general prognosis is much more positive if she responds to medication. The overwhelming majority of people with bipolar (manic depression) who manage their disease (ie. commit to treatment) do very, very well.

If it's something like schizophrenia then the prognosis is much worse. And, it would depend on the type of schizophrenia, as well.


BetrayedCajun,

I realize that it's hard for you to have to deal with this diagnosis. You said in your original post that you haven't ever dealt with this type of illness before. I have. I've had very, very close (almost family) friends stricken with this horrible, debilitating disease and I've seen some of the awful fall out that happens.

It isn't easy for the families.

My neice and nephew are also dealing with mental illness -- and it can really be a horror show.

My own mother is clinically insane, as well.

When I read your posts, your anger is palpable and very disturbing to me. I think that if you are unable to move past your anger and manage your expectations (learn a little) about how mentally ill people behave that you probably need to get as far away from your wife as possible for her safety, health, and well being. For example, that little conversation she had with her neighbor is absolutely to be expected from someone who is recently diagnosed and isn't stable. It doesn't make it pleasant for you -- but I believe your anger at her is misplaced because of it. It's like being mad at a parapalegic for being unable to walk.

I think you should let people who can have compassion, understanding and a willingness TO support her through the difficult time of first diagnosis and achieving stability do that for her and, if you can't bring yourself to be part of that process, at least manage yourself well enough to not interfere and damage the process with your anger.

I think you should have hope that your wife will be stable someday (I certainly hope she will) and will be able to interact in a healthy way with your son. I understand your need to protect him right now. I caution you not to scare him about his mother's illness as it may be something that she has to cope with for a long time.

I really do wish your son, you and your wife the best possible outcome. And, if that means you need to walk away because you can't manage your own anger, grief, or <whatever is going on with you> then I absolutely 100% support that decision (for whatever that's worth coming from someone who has supported too many people faced with debilitating mental illnesses)


Mys

I don't think she's faking illness. She's trying to act normal in front of everybody. Ocassionally she lets the crazy out in front of selected people. My neighbor is one of them. She has said other crazy things to her over the past year. My neighbor confessed that when she first moved in WW had her convinced that I was a deadbeat dad and she was alone raising DS. So WW thinks she has that neighbor's sympathy in all this and opens up to her. Neighbor told me it didn't take long to realize WW had problems. There have been a few other incidents with this neighbor that has made her wonder about WW. But, WW dosen't know the neighbor figured her out so she keeps going to her spouting strange things. The neighbor never said anything before because she didn't want to be involved, at least until this last incident.

If you didn't know, WW attempted suicide weekend before last. That's the attempt I am speaking of concerning MIL. MIL is putting all the blame on OM and thinks WW did what she did because of OM dumping her. She thinks WW is going to be OK now and there is nothing wrong with her. The last peice of info I will give her is the backstory with the neighbor.

Does that make more sence?

I did see that.

Oh boy. I am not sure your MIL is the best person to help your WW, either. Does she have any other caring relatives (an aunt, cousin?, best friend, sibling) who might be able to step in and help a little?

From my experience I'll say this: Support teams should be comprised of people who are 1.) not in denial and 2.) not angry and trying to 'snap the person out of it.'

Does your wife have anyone in her life that might fit that role?


Yes, and I do hope you can find someone to help your wife other than her doctors.

I will say this: Her prognosis is going to be dependent upon her willingness to commit to and embrace her recovery program. If she's surrounded by people who are in denial (telling her there's nothing wrong with her) or angry (punishing her for doing things she's biologically unable to prevent) then she's much, much, much, much less likely to embrace that recovery work. (Some people are both in denial and angry and spend their time trying to convince the person there's nothing ~really~ wrong with them that a little self discipline wouldn't fix. It's like telling someone with a spinal cord injury that if only they pray hard enough then they'll get up and run again.)

That would be a huge loss for her and your son.

Mys

edited to add:

one of the biggest roles in the support team is to keep "angry" or "denial" people away from the patient until treatment has a chance to take effect and they're strong enough to handle it. Which is why it's always better if people recognize what category they're in and self select away. If nothing else at least it doesn't eat up someone else's time keeping the angry/denial person away from the sick person.

I'm out of here for a busy week so I'm going to leave you with this.

I think your son is your #1 priority right now. Do whatever you have to do in order to ensure that he's ok. (I know I don't have to tell you that, but I just wanted you to be sure where I stand.) So, anything else I say is meant to be taken with that in the forefront of your mind.

I do happen to think there's a lot more you can do in this situation if you choose to do it and, frankly, I think if you can move past the anger that you just might be the most rational person to do it.

I have pretty mixed opinions about what to tell you because on the one hand -- whether or not your marriage ultimately survives this is your wife and she's sick and she needs your help. There's a part of me that wants to really chastise you for walking away from her in her hour of need. Seeing what I've seen of mental illness and reading in your thread about some of the issues that have surfaced over the past year in your wife's life, I'm not surprised she's acting out promiscuously. It's not an excuse -- there are consequences for what she's done and it's her choices -- but there is good cause to believe that your wife was suffering from this illness when she did it and, yes, I do think that mitigates things. (Mentally ill people do some really crazy things.)

I feel sad for your wife about your lack of compassion.

On the other hand, from dealing with people who can't deal with mental illnesses -- and the way they tend to make things even more unmanagable, I don't want to tell you to stick around and "try" anyway. For all I know you would just make things worse (I've seen it happen).

My best advice to you would be to find her someone who can be loving, supportive, strong, and REAL with her. (I'm not talking about "nice" people. I'm talking about strong, real people who can separate out the BS from reality and who also have a firm grip on boundaries but who also posses compassion and love for her. The last thing she needs is a "nice" person who will feed her denial.)

My next best advice for you is to BE that person because you said the vows and made the committment. But that may well be beyond your capabilities.

And, the bottom line is that I really do wish you (all) the best.

Good luck.

Mys

You cannot "deal with" mental illness of an adult unless you have legal power to do so... if the adult in trouble says:

"LEAVE ME ALONE AND DO NOT COME NEAR ME"

just about all you can do is call her medical team & inform them that she is refusing help that is offered

then step away

if you attempt to intervene too much with an unbalanced female, they can make false claims of abuse, etc ...

YOU are limited because YOU have no jurisdiction over her

SOME of the mental illness is under HER control ... she knows where and when she can pull certain stunts and has the ability to control herself if need be

Pep

This is NOT a lack of compassion

he has NO POWER over her

she says "Leave me alone."

He better leave her alone.

[b]YOUR lack of compassion for this GRIEVING husband is really apalling <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Mys,

Am I coming off as angry. Maybe my delivery is a bit crude or too striaght foward. I'm defniatley not angry with WW. I want to help her. I don't talk down to her. She's not afraid of me. He//, I'm going to her aprtment tonight to hang a cabinet for her. Every time I see her I tell her I'm there if she needs me. She spent the entire afternoon at my house yesterday doing laundry. I try to make her feel as safe as possible when I'm with her. I'm doing my best not to upset her. I've given her a text book Plan A. I guess you could say I still am. I don't blame her for her condition. The only real anger I have is with OM's participation in trying to be DS's daddy. I understand WW was not healthy, what's his excuse? Why did he think he could replace me as DS's daddy? It's very hard to not be offended by that.

I guess I'm not coming off as having compasion for WW, but it's there. She see's it. Maybe I'm venting when I write and the compassion goes out the window, but I assure you that I am not angry with WW.

Pep seems to understand a little better where I am coming from. When WW was in the hosptial she wanted me escorted out. She wouldn't allow me to see her. I asked if I had any legal rights and they said NO. So I sat in the waiting room until I got word that she was stable and then I left. She ordered the staff to give me no info about her condition or her treatment. One of her friends came and talked to me I guess so I would leave and I did. I never went back. When she needs something from me she lets me in her life for the moment it takes her to get what she wants, Then I'm back out again. I'm not allowed to talk to her about her personal life. I don't push it. When she lets me in I get all the info I can, and then I'm out again. So I am letting her go in an attempt to let her feel like I am gone. She's been asking me to let her go for months and now I feel like her health is more important than our marriage. If I am part of the problem then I am removing myself for her health. Right now I just want her to get healthy for DS. If she wants me around then she's going to have to ask. I will not force myself on her.

She is being supported by some very toxic people right now. They tell her she's fine, they tell her whatever she wants to hear. She has one friend that is the kind of person Mys mentioned and I just got through bringing her up to date and she is on board with me. I will next try to get MIL to understand the severity of the situation and finall her IC. Is there anything else that I can do?

BetrayedCajun,

First, let me just say one thing: I am so sorry you find yourself dealing with mental illness. My exH is mentally ill (diagnosed by a doctor in psychology) and I believe my DH's exW is also--although she's a Narcissist and she will never believe there is anything wrong with her <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> It feels awful overwhelming and scary at times, doesn't it? Especially when the people who are supposed to be helping are sweeping it under the rug and denying that there is a problem.

Second, let me try to answer your question can WW get better? People are right when they say that it depends on the diagnosis. Some mental illness, as I've said before, is just seeing things through a skewed point of view. For example, a person with borderline personality disorder does what I call a "pushmepullyou"--they want you to love them but push you away by hurting you...and then claim loudly that "No One Loves Me!" Some part of the way they view the world is a little ... OFF. Now, some folks benefit greatly from medication--sometimes it's a matter of brain chemistry being unbalanced and the medications can help with that. Some folks benefit greatly from therapy--sometimes it's a matter of dealing with a past trauma or some odd, immature pattern that they never grew out of. Most benefit greatly from a balance of BOTH!! But some do not. My cousin is good example of a schizophrenic person who does take medication and go to therapy but he sees aliens and cannot really live by himself. Other than seeing the aliens, he is harmless and functions fairly well! Of course, there is another group that no one here has yet identified, and frankly I call that group the sinners. Sometimes, I think there are people who do what they know is wrong, deliberately choosing to do an evil thing, and it is too much for their mind and part of them breaks. For those folks, what would probably help them a lot would be to stop doing what they know is wrong and admit their bad choices! Thereafter, I think a lot of their mental anguish from deliberately choosing wrong would be relieved, and some fairly simple counseling would do the trick.

Now, not all "mental illness" is sinners--but not all "mental illness" is biologically based either. I'm not suggesting that a person with mental illness is a sinner either--my cousin is a perfect example. He does not see aliens because of some evil choice he made. Nope, he sees them due to some biological misfire. But SOME people do lose their minds when they deliberately, over and over again, do what they know is wrong.

Finally, let's address the divorce, custody, and getting your WW help. BC, her best chance at getting good help has got to be from within her. That is to say, she has got to admit that she has a problem and seek out medical/mental help on her own accord. At this time, it seems that she does not want you in her life, and she has made that pretty plainly clear. Thus, your hands are somewhat tied. You can not "force" her to realize that she has mental issues. However, your hands are NOT tied when it comes to protecting your DS. You have a deep responsibility there, because you KNOW and can prove and demonstrate that WW is NOT in her right mind and may be harmful to herself--and thereby harmful to others in order to harm herself. Thus, it would be my best advice to speak to your attorney and immediately request a psych eval. Furthermore, you can use the neighbor as your witness--even if the neighbor only writes a statement--and you can get an expert witness psychologist of your own to state his/her opinion of son's safety.

I have to be honest with you. At this time, I would seriously consider not allowing DS to be with WW and MIL until they demonstrate that they are dealing with this mental illness. I'm not trying to be alarmist, but serious things can and do happen when a mental illness is ignored, and if they want free and open visits, they need to be addressing this!!

Your faithful friend,


CJ

My experience with mental illness is both professional and personal as my mother is undiagnosed manic depressive and my husband has been diagnosed with bi-polar.

Follow Pep's direction please. She also speaks from experience. You can do NOTHING for your wife. She is a danger to your son. And your MIL, by relation could also be a danger in that she could buy in to the idea that your wife is healthy enough, allows her to take him off somewhere and who knows what could be the result.

An EXCELLENT resource for your situation is the BOOK "A Beautiful Mind" - the movie does well to romanticize the highlights of Nash's story, but sugar-coats the impact on the marriage. In real life, Nash divorced Alicia and he sunk deeper into the abyss with homosexuality, drugs, etc. Eventually his miraculous remission from skizophrenia occurred. Alicia remained his friend through out all his antics, so the ending is pretty well accurate.

The book, on the other hand, gives you an idea of what you are in for. Respect her wish to be free, but keep your son safe. At least for now. You can have her medical records called as witness as to her fitness as a mother with unsupervised visitation, so don't worry about knowing her diagnosis right now. Let your lawyer dig that out.

Having chosen to stay married to a mentally ill person, I can tell you it's not easy. I still have an escape plan in the event that things get too far out of tilt that I can no longer tolerate the situation. My husband works hard to be emotionally balanced and personally responsible for his attitude and behavior. The only "entitlement" he seems to allow himself right now is to not have to hold down a job. That's a big one - it hurts and sometimes even breaks my heart because he loses so much of his sense of manhood by not working and providing for his family. I can't imagine it, because I couldn't just sit idly by and watch my family go down like he did 11 years ago when we lost our business...

Your wife isn't in the league to allow for such a hope for personal recovery right now, let alone marital recovery and fit-for-mother responsibilities. Be compassionate, cautious and like a Papa-Protector to that boy of yours.

Thanks CJ and KA,

I was with WW tonight. I went to her apartment and put in a cabinet and hung a picture. We ended up outside after watching DS play and she brought up her sitch I guess you would say. She pretty much told me that she feels stupid and used. She realizes the damage she has done to DS and has noticed that DS isn't wanting to be with her much anymore. He wants me even when she has him now. She feels like she has failed everybody, mostly DS, and doesn't deserve to live anymore. She really believes that the world would be better with out her. She says she isn't going to do anything, but she thinks about her pills every day. I told her DS still needs her and amends could be made in her life. I told her she was still very young and there was so much life still to live. She understands that she needs to find happiness within herself. I told her yes that was true, but it didn't mean she didn't need some help along the way. She doesn't have to do it alone. I was basically trying to get her to embrace recovery. I told her to try and have as much fun as possible in NH and if she still didn't feel anything to go dip her toes in the Atlantic, she'd definatley feel that.

I think she was trying to be close to me today. She asked me if I wanted anything to eat. She asked if I wanted to stay and watch a movie. I didn't stay. I didn't know what to do or say really. I wasn't expecting any of that and was caught off gaurd. I was just so frikin sad I just wanted to get the he// out of there. I know if I was to start hanging around meeting her needs she would be right back to expecting someone else to make her happy, Plus she pretty much said she's not thinking about me at all. I'm not sure why she was wanting me to stick around. Might be because of the guilt she talked about having. I really don't know.

KA did hit it right on the head in her last little paragraph. WW was exactly in that condition tonight. I did leave DS with WW and MIL though. DS wanted to come with me and I told him to spend some time with mommy for another day. She was going on a trip and is going to miss him. He didn't understand and still wanted to come with me. I think it tore us all apart.

I feel like I have to choose between WW and DS, which is a no brainer, but still the hardest thing I've ever had to do.

This sucks

Did you ever find out exactly what they think she has???