I've been reading through this site for about a month and really wish I had found it before my marriage broke up.

My wife decided to end our marriage in November of last year. We were only married a short time (less than a year) at that point. We had only a few disagreements, no yelling matches or physical fights. There were no physical affairs though I believe she had already checked out emotionally with her ex husband.

I reacted in the worst possible of ways and began a high pressure campaign to get her to open communications with me and when that failed I wrote online about what I was going through with names and all. Of course that really did things in.

Needless to say I have since taken all of that stuff down and wish that I could show her how truly sorry I am, but she's been so cold, so unresponsive (even before I fell apart and really started doing harm) and have yet to be able to get her to even say "I'm okay" to me since we separated some six months ago.

I have been fighting to try to force myself to accept that its over, but I still cry myself to sleep at night, daily trying to figure out what went wrong. I miss her and I miss her kids (her step children).

I just want to say that I read through the info here and think it would have been so helpful if I had found it before things fell apart. I carry on one day at a time because that's the only way I can do it. I know they say that time heals, but I feel like the pain gets worse each day that passes. I know it will eventually mend and I pray daily that eventually will get here quickly <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

A.J.

Ok Third Divorce, I already told you I was wife three for my ex that I left two years ago. I was given the wisdom from my mother that if he hadn't dealt with hurts from former marriages he'd take "it" out on me. I felt throughout my marriage that at least half of what he was complaining about wasn't even about me - I think it was his baggage. He did a "high pressure" campaign too. That doesn't work ok? You can't "pressure" someone into loving you. That's called control. Yes you've been hurt married before, you are trying to "protect" yourself and it's quite sad I can see from what you are saying her. You remind me of my ex, he was and is quite emotional. People can say he's a jerk, he didn't love me, but I think he did in his own warped way. You see if you have been hurt you might show your love through control... do you even see that? Your ex is cold because you tried to show love in very strange ways - a counselor once told me it's all about self defense, your "love" is defensive. She doesn't get that. My husband cries a lot, someone once said the tears are 'fake' because a man like this wouldn't cry. I think it's the opposite, I think he's quite sensitive, more then most men - he hurt me physically in "self defense" ok? He was hurt growing up, he keeps repeating and repeating his "self defense" as an adult. Us women can't relate of course. Ithink you need your own counseling to try to seriously figure out your childhood and what you are doing in your life. You are repeating something here and I do believe what you are saying, you are crying and sad. But just try to understand what you are doing to women and yourself. You need a good shrink, a very good one, and BE HONEST. Don't be some STRONG man, cry and really tell all. ok?

Horsey,

I think you definitely pegged some things and in other ways I think you're way off the mark (which is perfectly okay, our situations are probably similar in some ways and different in other ways).

Let me clarify a few points. In my marriage there was absolutely no physical abuse, threats or otherwise. In fact we barely fought. We had only perhaps two instances of voice raising or shouting. Our marriage lasted less than one year. And my wife checked out emotionally only a month or two in. I tried and tried and tried to find a way to connect to her and never could figure out what went wrong. She would literally not speak to me for weeks at a time.

The core disagreement we had was over money. It was such an issue in fact (and the only issue that was ever voiced even after the marriage ended) that most people are convinced she was simply a "gold digger" and nothing more. I'm not convinced but I have to admit that it can sure look that way sometimes.

Now on to the specific things you said.

1. In the other thread, you mentioned me putting my wife into the shape of my ex. I acknowledge that to some degree that may be the case. The problem is my wife did that to me as well. I would hear every so often comparisons to her ex and the things she would liken me to him about couldn't be further from the truth. And I'm sure the places where I put her there were the same. But I never voiced those things. I'm sure she felt it in some ways, but I never told her during our marriage that I felt she was treating me like my ex. I tried not to talk about my ex at all.

2. In our marriage, I think she was still in love with her ex. In the final several months of the marriage, her ex got arrested for a serious crime and then fell severely ill. She cried day and night for him, called him on the phone daily, had to visit at the hospital, etc. It was all under the guise of "the kids father" and worried about the kids "losing their father" but I see there was far more. When I finally voiced a concern that it was excessive she blew up and told me I was jealous and it was my problem. The second time I voiced a concern she point blank told me that if I couldn't trust her it was my problem and that she would choose her "friendship" with him over our marriage any day. A week later she threw me out.

To this day they aren't together, but I have no doubt emotionally she was with him long before we separated.

I could say so much more but that would probably be boring to most people reading here. Does that sort of answer your queries? If not, feel free to ask or probe further. I welcome any advice or criticism.

I love my wife, with all my heart, but as you've mentioned, I can't make her love me. I've accepted that it's over with. We haven't spoken in months and doubt we'll ever speak again. It's unfortunate that things had to end this way. I wish I hadn't reacted the way I had and I wish we could have separated peacefully but that simply wasn't in the cards for me this time. And having accepted it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. I do cry daily still <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. I've tried dating but I just end up missing my wife and hurting more after the date so I've decided its way too early for that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

Sorry about this, how sad for you. A counselor once said about my husband - it's his third marriage, that only would make him want to really try to fix our marriage, but that he'd been married twice before would tell us something is wrong. Yes my situation is much different then yours, however you say you were angry and tried to "control" your wife into loving you. You handled things wrong - and as shrinks say likely this wasn't just "anger" towards your current wife but a cumulation of your past experiences thus your eruption was likely worse then if you hadn't been married before or had baggage. I am not divorced yet, this was my first marriage, I do think I'm going to have my own baggage that will be a part of me for life from this. Any signs of any of "this" and I'll react differently then when I was more "naive" about marriage. We can all try to work on our own baggage and emotional issues. It sounds like you chose an immature woman - maybe on purpose, thinking you'd be more in control - subconsiously or not. I think my ex chose me for those reasons - I was 12 years younger, hadn't been around as far as relationship problems and really had no clue how hard marriage could be. it might be that during your first months of marriage, reality didn't match her dreams, I don't know. Perhaps she was looking for security, or was a gold digger, who knows. It's too bad that we don't go to premarital counseling to work out money and other issues before marriage. I regret not having done that myself. Money of course is central to most marriage arguments and we typically have different spending styles then our spouses. I'd like to think that people don't just go into marriage gold digging but I'm sure it happens, we as women subconsiously or not do typically want someone stable who makes money - I'm not sure it's gold digging it's just human nature. That you are defensive of someone after you for money or other things might mean that you are being self protective too - you've been hurt in the past, and now maybe you overly emphasize how someone is out to get you - and do have some controlling behavior. No one likes to be "accused" - husbands or wives - and likely your friends were egging you on as well when you were upset. I think friends can be very unhelpful during marriage problems because they try to defend us, like the drama and come to conclusions very quickly. Few out there really listen, and counselors are the ones supposedly trained to see both sides and help couples negotiate. You don't have kids together and that's what I'm dealing with and it's very sad. I don't know, just thoughts,

Horsey,

Thanks for the dialogue. I think our situations become more and more distinct as we talk but it still helps.

Let me clarify on some points.

On the money, I clearly reacted wrong and it was clearly because of baggage from prior marriages. I had a business from which I took a salary of over $10,000/mo from my first marriage and I was cleaned out and the business destroyed and left working for $10/hr for someone else when the dust settled on my first marriage.

The only words my current wife (soon to be ex) has ever given me as to why the marriage has failed is to say "you were so ambitious when I first met you" and that of course implies that she believes I am not now.

And that was largely where our disagreements over money came in. I go to school full time for pre-law and am about a year away from law school. I also work full time for a decent wage (capable of supporting the entire household). My wife worked also.

When we married, the very first thing she did was quit working against my advice and wishes. But I didn't tell her what to do. I told her what I thought was best and allowed her to make the choice and supported her in it.

The very next thing she did was demanded (not asked, not requested, etc.) that I empty all of my savings, stocks, etc. from before we married into joint accounts and also to reduce the amount of money I was earning during the marriage that was going into a new saving account.

I politely declined the first request (having been cleaned out in my first divorce, had $10,000/mo in income, $100,000 in bank for business and $30,000 in bank personally and in the end we both received $0.00 and the business was defunct). It was not that I would have held back a penny from her if we needed it (in fact read on, I'll support that).

But I had a specific financial plan (which I shared with her before we married and she never objected to or said she thought it was wrong or disagreed or otherwise). See, in order to go to law school, you're not allowed to work the first year. My plan included having enough money saved to support our household while I went to law school. I was on target and the clock was ticking (I needed to stay on target). I didn't want to insist that she work to support me through school. In fact, she quit working within a few weeks after we married against my better judgment (the plan before we married was for her to work until she paid off her debts and I was able to pay off my debts which I estimated would take 8 - 12 months and then she would quit working and I would support her and her children).

Now, on the issue to decrease savings, I tried to explain to her that if I did not put away at least $500/mo that I would not be able to support her financially when it was time to go to lawschool (at that time about 2 years away). She didn't care, she wanted the money to spend monthly instead. Now, we weren't short on any bills and we had about $200 - 300/mo of "blow" money with me putting the $500/mo in savings but that wasn't good enough.

She came from being a single mom barely making ends meet so I couldn't understand why she wasn't thrilled to have a few hundred a month to blow as she wanted, entertainment, on the kids, whatever, but it wasn't enough.

After a month of a very high pressure war from her (essentially her demanding it), I caved and said that I would give up my dream to go to law school because it was not possible for me to go if I did not plan for the family financially.

Then she demanded that I reduce my retirement contributions so we could have more money to spend. I put away about $300/mo out of my payroll deductions and my employer was matching an additional $150 or so. I was on plan for retirement (I'm 31 and had to start over twice).

This time I decided to refuse flat out. This is when she checked out emotionally.

I talked about wanting to build a house, she didn't want to build a house and wanted to stay living in the trailer on her grandparents property. I didn't push the issue.

I talked about wanting to build a multi-family unit to rent out to build income, she didn't think it was a good idea so I didn't push the issue.

Then she blamed me for not being ambitious, she said I talked about wanting a business but wouldn't do anything about it.

Finally, I agreed to quit a stable job with a major corporation to assist her brother in law open a construction business. Two months later, strapped for cash flow, I was laid off from my brother in law's business. Suddenly we were both unemployed and she laid in tears daily crying because she didn't want to go to work.

I went to one of my bank accounts and withdrew $2500 to support us for a month while I figured out what to do. I've never been unemployed a day in my life. I had about 6 months of income saved. I told her repeatedly not to panic, assured her we had 6 months of income and that I could always go back to work at my prior job.

A week later she threw me out.

Now, money was not the only issue. The ex husband was the second issue. But that did not become a problem until after she had already emotionally checked out from our marriage.

And we did go to marriage counseling. We went 3 times. The counselor tried to tell my wife repeatedly that most of the woman she saw had marriages falling apart because their husbands didn't plan financially, wasted money drinking and gambling, had no security, etc.

In my case, my wife felt there was no financial security because she couldn't spend the money. She said she wanted security but she acted against it every step she took.

I tried my best to involve her in the money management and the plans, etc. but she just didn't seem to care, she only wanted to know what she could spend and wanted me to reduce how much I was saving so she could spend more.

I didn't have ANY friends at all during the marriage. My wife and her children and my children were my life. I schooled, I worked and I gave every remaining minute to my wife and her children and mine.

Our friends analyzed the situation POST FACTO (after the separation). Even the counselor said to me POST FACTO in a counseling session for me (I kept seeing her after my wife and I separated) that no matter how much the counselor tried to bring us to other topics that my wife always dwelled in the money.

The counselor also noted that I came to each session willing to negotiate and bargain but that she didn't observe my wife giving anywhere.

Now that's not to say that I'm not without faults. I had plenty of them. For a while I blamed myself entirely for the breakup. I was so depressed and I thought it was all my fault and I was so totally broken that no woman could ever love or accept me. The I vascillated back and forth for a while between blaming myself and blaming her.

Today, I realize we both carried baggage and faults in. No doubt I still have plenty of broken things about me, but I'm no longer blaming myself completely.

The bottom line though, no matter the faults I brought in is that less than a year is absolutely rediculous. This hurt me so bad because it hurt my kids. My kids were abandoned by their real mom and then abandoned by my second wife. I dated for quite a while before I even introduced my kids to my current wife or her children. And now they are reliving that nightmare once again. I don't know that I can do that to them ever again no matter what sacrifices I have to make <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

AJ

Yeah, I'm with the shrink on this one, that women's complaints are about husbands not being financially responsible and it appears you were. Was she younger then you and just flat out silly or what? I have seen women out there looking for fathers for their kids, single mom's, most wanting to score the types of guys I used to date. Men when I was dating in my 20s were wary of "gold diggers" and rightfully so in some cases as the bimbos looking for a free ride are a dime a dozen in this selfish world. It doesn't seem that many of us are really good with money anymore, nationwide we have a negative worth, credit cards are huge, and most people are irresponsible.

We all make mistakes, you are at least looking at your own - but you can't go on beating yourself up over what you did wrong or you'll never get on with your life. In my case I have a lot of guilt and I've had a hard time with what I did wrong thinking maybe I 'provoked' my ex. But I know he had baggage and issues from previous marriages and he was taking things out on me. I'll admit I was younger and wasn't as fiscially responsible as him, I married him at 32 and wasn't in the mode of thinking much about retirement, I'd been busy building a business and he was older. Still I beat myself up about that, however I never even wanted a single joint account and I worked, make my own money. It's crazy that your wife quit working, was she lazy? I don't kno w since I don't know her, but what you are saying is really sad. How could you have forseen this? A counselor I hired is going on about my not seeing the "red flags" but you know what, I don't think we really know until marriage what it's like to be with someone do you?

Sorry you are so sad, and how sad for your kids. I have a little boy, I don't even want to date to put him in that position of bonding with a new male figure. I feel sorry for kids, they pay the price for the mistakes of us grown ups don't they? How old are your kids?

My children are 10, 9 and 8.

I'm just as devastated by the loss of her children. I know in the end I really have no right to feel that way since they are not my children, but I didn't easily go into a relationship and accept another man's two children in my house hold.

By the time I committed and married, I loved them the same as my own. I wasn't even allowed to tell them bye when she decided to end the marriage. I grieve that loss as much as I grieved the failure of my marriage (and still do).

Worse yet, our kids were really close to each other.

Now, once we separated, I really destroyed things and my actions were irreprehensible and inexcusable. It was really important to her to feel like this was all my fault and nothing was her fault so when all else failed, I went on a PR war to point out how she had abandoned our children and selfishly tossed me out while I was sick and needed her most and how she preferred a friendship with her child predator ex husband (his arrest was for soliciting sex from a minor over the internet) over a relationship with her husband.

Not that I really believe there was ever a chance before that (I really believe she checked out about two months in and she built a wall that was so solid there was no getting through, I watched her mother do the same thing and hatred and bitterness runs very deep in that family unfortunately and grudges are held for decades), but I know I destroyed her emotionally through that and closed any door that might have opened. That was all after the fact (doesn't excuse it). I say this only because I don't want to give the impression that I did everything right. I most surely didn't.

Really, likes attract likes. A NORMAL woman wouldn't associate with an ex who was arrested for what you say... and she was entirely disrespectful from what you are saying in contacting her ex on top of it. In a marriage this is not ok and if she had any sense she'd know that, but it doesn't sound like she had sense.

But I wonder if you are a "rescuer?" Do you pick needy women who need "help?" She was a single mom, obviously you had to have seen signs that all wasn't "normal" with her while dating her right?

You pegged it, this is a very SELFISH world. People are caught up in their own selfish lives with little regard for children and others. You also pegged, it, divorce isn't the answer - although it appears that she thought it was. A little discomfort in her marriage and she's outta there? Marriage is rough, even "normal" marriages with mostly functionable people, we all know that. But everyone wants what's easy and it's easier to run then it is to address something head on and try to solve problems. Only you might have been more "logical" and pushy in your way of solving problems then you think, maybe not. It's Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus stuff too - if she's overly emotional and can't make good decisions for herself or her kids - and then you even barely criticize her - it could be that she goes for "flight" - flight vs. fight. And you went for "fight." Everyone reacts differently under stress...

If hatred and bitterness runs deeply in this family she has issues from her childhood, perhaps her dad left her - perhaps she doesn't trust men and any sign of problems she's going to react, as she knows, with bitterness and hatred and spite. She learned this from mommy and other relatives. No you likely didn't do everything right, I'm reading Spiritual Divorce, the book on how we can learn through a divorce - from the pain - on what we did wrong, not so we'll repeat a bad marriage choice or a bad marriage - but so that we grow. Happy growing... and find some peace here. I'd recommend that book by the way, it's really good.

I haven't read it yet, but after reading here, its next on my reading list (I spend about $100 - 200/mo at the book store).

On the rescuing thing, perhaps subconciously but not deliberately or outwardly. I am willing to concede that point subconciously because all of my wives were a social tier or two beneath me. I'm not sure why my attractions are there.

Actually, in all 3 cases, the women pursued me. Perhaps its that I'm gullible and a target. I'm very direct and honest. I'm very confident and yet modest at the same time (not arrogant and full of myself). I'm very intelligent and driven and yet give freely of my time and volunteer and have a hard time saying no to people in need.

But in an odd way, I'm really attracted to a woman who knows what she wants and isn't afraid to pursue it. Unfortunately, I think that has manifested itself in me getting hooked up with the wrong people <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. I need to refine that attraction a bit perhaps, I suppose.

After my second divorce, I was too scared and didn't want to date or think about dating. I didn't for a bit. My third wife just sort of happened to me. She wasn't aggressive in pursuing me like my first two wives, but in hindsight she still did some pursuing.

But I was attracted to her and taken by her long BEFORE she made any moves towards me. In fact, because we worked together and my position at work (I was a manager/superior, she was NOT in my reporting chain (1500 employees in the building, I would not ever date one of my reps)). Being a manager, I would never have approached her, no matter the attraction and so her taking the first steps didn't raise alarms to me.

Anyway, you know what they say about hind sight. I have a dear friend who is very intelligent and she says I need to only date women that are two social tiers above me. I have a hard time seeing that happening, but you never know. To be honest though, for now, dating is out of the question.

Thanks for the book recommendation, I will read it, but I have about 20 books ahead of it (already purchased and not yet read).

AJ

Yes I think you need to choose women in your "league" rather then under you, but you might be choosing women under you for "safety" or other reasons... you know us strong women that are in management or business owners - we don't need money, we can make it on our own. To a lot of professional men, they might "say" that's what they want but in the end, it makes a man feel more like a "man" to have women a few tiers beneath, don't you think? In some way I think perhaps you wanted to have someone beneath you, someone "safe" that wouldn't leave you. Perhaps you were a "little" arrogant about your money and skills and she felt bad, maybe that's why she started shutting down. You don't sound abusive at all - just a bit on the controlling side, but that's your business in management too. I am sort of the same way, I've run my own business a lot time, I like to be in control but I don't think I'm controlling either... but in some ways likely I am. I thought I chose my "equal" in my last marriage, and you know what - I was his third marriage and he was after the opposite I think of previous women who "needed" him for money, support and whatever. I didn't. I think he in a subtle way criticized me and found ways that I was beneath him - like my lack of money skills to feel in control, so that I would need him, so I wouldn't leave him. Strange isn't it? I think women persue you because you are smart, in management, have money and seem to have control. Don't go up two social tiers, but maybe an "equal" or only one tier down... not two or three. Likes are most likely to make it in marriage, stats say one of the most important traits in successful couples is matching intelligence. You are a smart guy, find someone smart - who shares your values the most. Don't go for the bimbos chasing you... don't you know that what's "easy" isn't usually the best? Even though you've been hurt you don't have to "give in" to just any relationship - this is the downward spiral, now is the time to "go up" and this might mean for once that you do the choosing rather then having the chicks choose you. Narrow down traits you are looking for and while you are reading books find the Dr. Phil book on dating, it's really good - figure out what you want maybe. Just a little senseless advice... you seem so sad, in a slight way you do remind me of my ex and there are some similarities as well. I think he sits around crying - and friends say he's a jerk. Hurting people hurt others - so try to heal your hurts as much as you can, try Spiritual Divorce, it really is a good book if you want to get into the more new agey stuff.

Horsey,

I went out of my way to try not to be controlling. There were a lot of things I felt pretty strongly against but stood back and let my wife make her choices (like her wanting to quit work immediately after we got married). I did find a few places I just had to draw a line. Halting my retirement planning when there was no immediate need was simply something I wasn't willing to do.

In either case, its over and that's outside of the things that I have control in. It doesn't mean I don't hurt and it doesn't mean I don't miss her. I doubt she'd ever ask, but truth be told if she ever wanted me back, I hope I'd be strong enough to say no (I doubt it though). Because I'm so repulsed and turned off by how mean and bitter and ugly she has been in the separation/divorce process. It doesn't excuse it but that's why I acted out so badly. I could not believe how I was being treated, etc.

In the end, I can't tell you what's going on subconciously. To be honest, the very thing I like about a woman is a woman who knows what she wants. But I think there is a little bit of a romantic in me. I think maybe I dream of the pretty woman story. It's not that I want someone beneath me that I can control or otherwise (at least not that I am aware of).

This wife I thought was so different. She was capable of supporting herself (had been making it as a single mom). I know that's still several steps down from me, but my first and second wives really couldn't. She was manager relief at work (just a tier below manager, the step before training into management). But I definitely was blind. What I missed most was there were no dreams. That would have turned me off but I was too blind to see it.

And her personal life said otherwise. Lack of education. Lack of ambition. Poor living standards and life choices. Lives in a small town and her family lives in near poverty. But they had what they needed and were so happy. I fell so in love with the small town setting and worry free life. That's one good thing that came out of this is I learned to slow down and appreciate life. My standards didn't go down, but what makes me happy is so different today than before.

Oh well... I think its best that I simply stay out of the dating/remarriage scene for a bit. I tend to relate to woman more than I do men and so I have a lot of close female friends now. None of them are people I'm involved with or believe I would even become involved with. I'm enjoying having friends again (I gave up most of my friends because my wife was jealous when we were dating of all of the professional women that I hung out with and was friends with, etc.).

See, that's what frustrates me I suppose is I become close to professional women and I watch them chase after men beneath them and suffer from one bad relationship after another and I'm always there for them to cry on when it goes sour but don't understand why they keep repeating that pattern. It's the bad boy thing I suppose. And that I'm not. I'm very domesticated. I've been a single parent myself and taken care of my boys by myself for periods over the years. I'm very expressive and emotional.

Sad I am. Devastated. Depressed. Grieving. Particularly over the children. But I'm making it, day by day. I have no choice but to ...

Oh well, live and learn and be alone <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I spose that's my destiny, at least for now.

If you wife was insecure herself, of course she was terrified of your female friends that she saw as above her, it might have eaten her alive. Perhaps she was a gold digger, tired of being a single mom and looking for a man to rescue her. I've known women that have said this, if only they could find a man so they don't have to work- that are tired of being single moms. I'm a single mom and I can tell you, it is exhausting. Very tiring. I was very independent but it's hard to be with kids and when you are struggling. I have more money then most single women, I don't know that it makes a difference - it's just hard. You know if you've taken care of your boys for periods over the years. But truly independent women aren't out looking for a man to "rescue them." A woman looking to be rescued might not even "see" you, they might just see success and security, and if they are struggling some can be quite desperate. You know that.

Have you ever been alone? I didn't marry until I was 32 so this is "normal" to me, single again. I've been separated 2-1/2 years now. To me I'd rather be alone with my boy then fight. I'm enjoying the peace and making my own decisions. I was naive about marriage, and I had no clue how difficult it could be, and the arguing. Perhaps there's subconcious stuff about me - and why I did what I did, why I didn't see red flags. They say love is blind, I'm not so sure I even believe the shrinks that we purposefully chose partners to grow, etc. Who knows why we do what we do. I'm not even so sure hindsight is 20-20 in relationships, I've hired a number of shrinks that couldn't even figure out my marriage problems. Perhaps we just dwell on problems too much anymore and we don't forgive on a daily basis.

People get really angry when going through a divorce - your wife is more likely typical then not don't you think? We facilitate between love and hate. Read this Spiritual Divorce book, her take is quite interesting actually. But I think most marriages are love/hate to a certain extent. Certainly they are about struggle, and the most stress is in the home - people might even want to "help" us - like you may have been trying to "help" your spouse and instead of learning from you, she chose to resent you. In reverse she might have tried to help you and your rebelled as well. Spouses tell each other their flaws, they push buttons - and that's how we grow. I'm amazed at those old couples that make it through the "stuff' most couples go through and reach that point where they accept, look alike, and really become one. In our world with the high divorce rate, marriages aren't making it, everything is so stressful and selfish. It's sad.

Professional women, and women in general do often chase after men beneath them. In some ways it's better not to have two "equals" because with equals there is always a power struggle. If you are the more dominant person, maybe you do need someone just a bit beneath you as you call it. Sometimes I think professional women get backlashed. They perhaps like you want the upper hand and then the men beneath them feel bad and the relationships don't work. Maybe the professional women aren't even purposefully doing it, but it's hard for a man that a woman makes more. When I was in my 20s I had a hard time dating, I was in smaller towns and made more then most guys, ran my own company. Once there was a really cute guy in sales, I had such a crush on, and I couldn't believe he chose a fat girl with two kids over me. My friend said it, she was safe, she cooked for him, he liked the "instant" family, and someone like me scared him. Ok, perhaps I was a bit arrogant, I was tall, thin and always dated the hunks. I was the one that dumped guys, not them me and he chose her over me!

I'm not knocking men at all for choosing what we "smart" women call the "bimbos." And of course we see what you see, that smart men, business men that are doing well choose silly girls, trophy wives or they just go for what's easy. I don't know how old you are, did you tell me? But I'm 39 and somewhere in my youth is when it all turned around. Instead of boys courting girls as is historical - the girls started chasing men. If you are a cute guy, educated and make a little money, the chicks have been "easy" and you haven't even had to work to get dates. However also if this is the case, and you learned not to "work" and just kicked back letting women choose you - you never figured out what Dr. Phil says, what are you looking for, values, type of person, etc. You are letting them choose you. And if there are any "nice" girls left out there - typically if they are raised right and have a set of values they aren't going to chase and chase you. They'll expect you to be the "man." I think women have done some of this to ourselves, making ourselves easy to men so that we are getting less respect from them, it sounds like you need someone you respect, not someone you look down on.

Am I rambling or what?

LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm 31, I've been married most of my life. Married at 17 and first marriage lasted for 8 1/2 years (but there were several periods of separation in that marriage). I was single for a couple of years and remarried. That one lasted 4 months. I was single for a couple of years and then remarried. This one lasted less than a year.

You've given me a lot to think about. I've reflected back on a lot of what you've said. I'm not sure I fit the "just lay back and the womem come after me profile." I don't consider myself to be attractive (though most of the woman I date say that I am, I don't trust those opinions). I am definitely not the "hunk" or in great shape. But maybe I don't give myself enough credit (one of my closest women friends says that) because I've never been without a date or companion when I've wanted one.

It's funny, in some ways I'm definitely not the loner and yet in other ways I am. I'm very independent, but my definition of independent is within my family unit. I had not problem being isolated from my friends and submersing myself with my wife and her family and friends, etc. In fact I loved it. I'm not a clubber and I don't need a massive social life outside of family. When I don't have family, I fill myself with social things to keep myself busy and to try to not dwell in my lonliness.

Anyway, thanks for the dialogue, its given me quite a bit to think about. Perhaps you've caused me to examine some things I may not have seen or thought about and I definitely intend to read that book in the near future. I'm still really hurt right now and think time is the best thing I can give myself at current. I'm so mad and angry at her and yet I still miss her and think about her. Talk about love/hate <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Your friend is odd, that says you don't give yourself enough credit because you haven't been with the right companion. You don't give yourself enough credit because you are insecure. You pick women under you purposefully - even if they are "picking you" and you aren't running off the bimbos because you are insecure. You come across as "secure" to the bimbos and then it all unravels once you are married. You take your insecurities out on them and you aren't completely aware of what you are doing, that's what insecure people do.

I don't see how at 31 you've been married most of your life. You didn't even go through the "grown up" stage, you went right from mommy to wives. You lack what some of us gained by getting married later in life - those years of just having fun, exploring, getting to know yourself - you see yourself as a reflecion of women you've been with. And your friend is reflecting what you are saying - it's rediculous actually - that you don't give yourself enough credit because of never being with the right woman.

Pick up some of those books while you are spending the $200 per month at the bookstore on self esteem and insecurity if you will. I think maybe you can forget the dating books for now. How about at 31 you take a good look at yourself too, we women do that... are you a little overweight, do you have some flaws, what makes you not secure about your looks by the way? You can exercise to build energy, be lesss depressed and in the end your clothes will fit better and you'll have more confidence just being healthier. If you don't like your looks start to dwell on your positive traits, not your negative traits. Life's too short not to like yourself and dwell on inperfecctions.

If you are going to do the "single" thing since you always give into the silly girls how about not really "dating" formally as you might just fall for the bimbo again. How about choosing places where stronger women might hang out to make "friends." Like those outdoor adventure groups, or even health clubs, certain types of hobbies. If you are on the loner side and you don't need a massive social life maybe just [censored] a few things here and there to do that you wouldn't do... outside your "comfort zone?"

Sorry you are hurting, but life is about moving forward, you can only rehash this for so long... how am I for a private shrink (you know the good shrinks have wisdom from screwing up their own lives, then being loners, sitting around depressed and analyzing everyone and themselves to death - they are the ones that sped $200 a month at bookstores!)

Uh... Wow...

I think one of my sentences was very poorly written gramatically...

My friend says I don't give myself enough credit. She says then when I say that I'm know I'm not the choiciest of guys when it comes to physical appearance, etc. I don't know her reason for saying that. She's never expressed specific reasons for it.

My thoughts are that I'm not the hunk type and definitely not eye candy, etc. I don't think I'm ugly, I'm not a slob. Just not a hunk or great looking. But sometimes I second guess that thought and my own reason for second guessing that is because at any point that I'm wanting to date, I am never without a willing companion.

So my wording was really poor in that particular statement and wrongly gave the impression my friend was using that as her reason.

When you say that I'm insecure, I'd say that you're correct on that one and I'm in no way in denial of it, but the insecurities that I have are at least to some degree based on my repeated marriage failures. I'm unsure however how they manifest themselves in ways that are "being taken out" on the woman I'm with. I find that statement interesting and worth examining because if it's something I'm doing, it's definitely something I need to be focused on resolving. I can't find it in my reflection though (I'll think more on it later).

On the books I'm reading, I read a wide variety of things. I do read a fair bit of self improvement books. But my selections are all over the place. I just picked up "The Seven Pillars of Health" and "Secrets of the Millionaire Mind" the other day. I read on business, motivation, spiritual, relationships (not particularly dating), philosophy, health, financial, history, computers, etc. It's pretty broad.

To be honest, I really haven't explored many self-esteem books because I haven't really considered myself to be esteem challenged in the past. I'm now thinking you may be on to something here. If esteem is an issue, its "surgical" in that it only affects me in where I measure myself by my relationship failures. Because in career, business, financial, intelligence, etc. I'm successful. I'm not arrogant at all, but I'm very confident. Sometimes my confidence is mistaken for arrogance, but those who know me will tell you that I'm very humble. I don't ever illusion myself that I'm better than anyone else and I regularly give of my time and resources to help others. I would do anything to help others achieve the successes I have. And I don't walk around thinking any sort of work is beneath me. If the toilets need scrubbing, I'll scrub them. So I'm very well respected by my subordinates because of those values. So I don't know if arrogance fits although as I've admitted sometimes people first meeting me get that impression because my confidence is very strong in those areas.

Anyway, the point is that I've never thought about esteem because I walk around feeling pretty good about myself as a whole, but if I isolate the relationship side of me by myself, I'd say you're clearly right, that part of me is clearly got esteem issues. Do you recommend any particular books there. I'm worried that if I pick up a general esteem book it may be ineffective because for the most part, I don't walk around feeling esteem issues.

Anyway, thanks for the dialogue, it gives me something to think about again.

My quick thoughts with a boy on my lap...

I think you'd like the book Emotional Intelligence, actually a shrink that I met at the Starbucks recently recommended it to me - and I can see why. My ex is the president of a bank, I run my own company, we are "successful" but not in relationships. We made a mess of our marriage, and of course I put more blame on him as I was his third. The book says it's different skills that make relationships work - and they aren't' the same skills that make someone successful in the world. Many who are good managers are terrible at marriage. You might be in my boat, needing to figure out why.

Just because of your track record of divorce at 31 about any shrink would say, there's likely patterns and "stuff" going on that you may or may not be aware of. Personally I think half the shrinks of the worlds are nuts but maybe you could find a decent one that could help you explore how you respond emotionally - I didn't buy into some of this psychological "stuff" but maybe it's true... even a customer of mine one said that emotional baggage just builds and builds - so when you are angry at your new wife, if you've been hurt in the past, you are filled with emotional garbage and defenses.

Let's say on your first marriage you were both young, had never been out in the world, faught, it didn't work out - you remarried someone that's a lesser person then the first for "safety purposes" and that didn't work, so you move on to some even a few tiers below that who was after your money - at this point you don't think a lot of yourself as you've already had relationship issues. You settle for someone that "needs" you financial and begin taking your emotional garbage out on her because you didn't deal with your own issues.

Your friend is telling you what you want to hear, it's not your fault, you've just been with bummer women. Life doesn't work this way, we have to deal with "our own" issues. So the shrinks have told me. I've been separated over two years, need to finish my divorce but I can see friends that have been divorce that jump into the next marriages - they don't want to do what you are doing, have that alone time crying and being sad, they want someone or something to fill the "hole." Divorces are very emotional we know that, many drink, do drugs, get depressed, the works. So if you've kept your head up and faced your emotions here, even crying appears to be healthier then just moving on to the next relationship from what I've seen, don't you think?

So the Emotional Intelligence book - it'll tell you about some of this - you feel pretty good about yourself as a whole, you do well at work, you think you are mostly good looking but you fail at relationships. You might have a high iq for books and reading and management - but it's emotional smartness that maybe us "smart" people lack... not sure what to do about it, but it seems like I can "recognize" it in another person. Like my friend the shrink said, this can cause a lot of emotional disturbance for people who reach their 30s, do well in the world and fail and fail in relationsips. I'm proud that this was my one and only marriage, truth is I ran from commitment through my 20s, didn't marry until 32, I was educated, smart but I couldn't handle relationships. I didn't handle my marriage very well, I'll admit it.

This site is nice for having others help you "think" about things, but I don't know you just from what you are saying her and some similarities in my own life can I chat with you a bit. That's all. I paid a lot of shrinks the past few years too trying to figure this muck out, spent too much time on this site too. There starts to be "themes"... enjoy your day.

I am trying to find information for remarriages and my search brought up your thread. I am twice divorced, like you I was married very young (16 due to pregnancy). My first marriage lasted 14 yrs but only because I believed you must stay no matter what, I remarried a little over a year later (way too soon) and that marriage ended after 7 years. I have now been remarried for over 5 years, but am not happy about how my marriage is and am searching for answers to restore romantic love, and believe that after reading Harley's book, Falling In Love, Staying In Love, DH and I are in the state of Withdrawal.
Most of our conflicts have revolved around DH's children who are young adults. He is totally nonconfrontational with them, and they run over him and us as a result. OK I see we have very different situations, but I am thinking that we are alike in that we want to have great lasting marriages, but haven't made good choices in our marriages. I'm sorry that you are headed toward the third divorce and I know that it is devastating to you.
I am hoping to find something that has information on remarriages and if Dr. Harley has success with these marriages also.

The Little Book of Letting Go - I was just reading this last night, you need this one. It's really good, it has exercises to go through past relationships that failed and how to find the patterns for yourself. It says some of this might come from childhood, from how we learned to react - then we do it in our marrriages - then we take from one failed marriage problems if we don't heal and we over react to what someone is doing that isn't even the current spouse. I dealt with this with my ex that was married twice before me and had lived with a woman so I think I was number four. I don't think he knew what he was doing, he'd never healed or dealt with his former hurts - and he'd shut down emotionally too. So many of the arguments weren't even about me, he'd get set off so easily, I think from reading psych books and going to counselors that he was reacting to an accumulation of hurts, defenses - and not even me most of the time. Not fun to be a wife being accused of things or personality traits. He liked to accuse me of just mooching off of him, it was so absurd, I'd been independent, ran my own company since 24, and I moved for him without my own resources and had to start an almost new business. I was very offended. All I'm saying is likely there are trends in what you are doing, not just women you are choosing - or that are choosing you. I hope you can work through all of this, I"m trying to as well. We all are. There's some good Christian books out there on remarriage, one was new as of the last few years that talked about all of the problems with remarriage and why the divorce rate is higher then first and second marriages. Because of baggage but how complex it is to combine families. I never bought the book but heard the author on the radio, so I'm sure you can find it.

Today was a rough day (as was yesterday). The holidays always are.

My wife and I go to the same church. She didn't like the church when we were married. When we separated, she didn't got at first. But then she started going. I sorta think she does it just to rub things in. At first it was really distracting and I would look forward to seeing her across the room but I don't care anymore about seeing her.

But today, there is no children's church and I saw her kids. It just brought me to tears and left me crying the whole service.

My friend says I should find a new church. But I sorta feel like I shouldn't have to. My wife made decisions that impacted my future without my input. It impacted business and job for me without my input. It impacted me financially without my input. It impacted my friendships and relationships with her family without my input. I kinda feel like this is my last ground and I don't want to give it up. So I allow myself to be tortured.

Maybe I should get my head checked <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Find a new church.