I think you are blaming and blaming her, it seems that you need to remove yourself from having contact with her so you can heal. Of course all of this impacted your life. If you are crying and crying like this somehow you need help healing, can you find a counselor this week, have you tried counseling? You sound so sad, I'm sorry. We are all sad here aren't we on this site, almost every story is horrible. A preacher once said it's like cutting an arm off the pain that comes from hurt in a marriage, God didn't intend for us to feel so much hurt. That's why he created a set of "rules" to protect us. I never used to want to hear this, my mom used to say this to me when I was dating. I made a very, very poor marriage choice - and then I made a series of decisions in my marriage that made it worse, and I behaved in ways that made it worse. Two wrongs don't make a right. But if I go back and look at my lifestyle when I met my ex I wasn't following those "rules" that are meant to protect us. I won't go on and on about the rules I broke but you know the scenerio - on top of the world, being selfish, seeing what I wanted to see, and not making God the center of our marriage. I'm not some big Bible thumper but these days I'm finding some peace in church and Christian books especially Joyce Meyers who was divorced herself. I really do think you need a new church, it's so great that you are going - but at a new church you could get a fresh start, make some new friends, get into a support group - at the very least you can do what I do, go, hide out in the back row, not really talk to anyone - but get some renewel from the music and positive atmosphere. If you are thinking about your ex, her kids and you are morning - you won't get the enrichment from church that you really need here. Is there another church close by or that you could drive to? My gosh, you are making life hard. Sorry your marriage didn't work, she's on with her life, doesn't sound like she's looking back and maybe you can try to get on as well... it really must be harder when you've already failed at marriages and really wanted this one. But you know what, you'll heal, you'll figure some of this "stuff" out and heck after all that you've been through - if wisdom comes from hard knocks - you'll be smarter then all of us combined!

Horsey,

We saw a counselor 3 times before we separated. The counselor had seen my wife and her older child for years before she saw the two of us so she was very familiar with my wife. When we separated, I continued seeing her weekly for several months.

I was beating myself up badly right after the separation. The counselor spent that 3 months telling me I should be mad at my wife, that I had tried hard, that few men came as committed as I was, that she was shocked at my wife's decisions, etc. The counselor said once that I was learning my wife was not who I thought she was and then remarked that she was learning the same thing as well.

Funny you mention me getting back into counseling. I approached the church today after service and asked if they had counseling resources and they have a Christian counselor on staff. I was going to call Tuesday to set an appointment and try that out.

I thought about leaving, but I feel so defeated and I sorta feel like this is my stand. And I know in the end I'm just torturing myself. But I was going to this church long before my wife wanted anything to do with it. And funny thing is every single time I think about moving on, the pastor specifically talks about people not moving on to other churches because another member has offended us, etc. so I tell myself I need to stay.

But I was doing so well. I hurt, but I was going to church and pretty well ignoring my wife. It was seeing the kids that broke me down today. But even that aside, I broke down yesterday and it had nothing to do with church. It seems like I take a few steps forward and then fall back. I don't know that I'm really that much better off than I was at first.

I do read a lot of Christian books. Two of my favorite relationship authors are Dr. Smalley and Dr. Dobson. Do you recommend a specific book by Joyce Meyers?

The preacher's saying not move on to another church because he needs people in his congregation to grow and pay the church bills. He's not talking about your situation either - and you have a reason to leave and find a new church so you aren't torturing yourself in a place meant for peace and healing. Joyce Meyer's has a few books about controlling our emotions that I think are quite good and might be helpful for you. There's another that's really good on the top things that steal our joy. She's been through a divorce and abuse herself so I lke here because she's been there. She's on tv on the church channels and you can watch her. Her take on emotions is we have to learn to control them so they don't control us. You are letting your emotions control your life here, crying and being upset all the time. You are letting your ex and others "steal your joy" as Myers says. I'm doing the same thing so maybe that's why we are chatting. I've been sitting around crying and lamenting over a broken marriage yet I'm worse then you, I haven't continued the divorce because I'm "stuck". I'm rehashing and rehashing something I can do nothing about, just like you. It's not a good state to be in. I do think a good Christian counselor could help you, if you want the spiritual take on all of this. You've been through absolute ****** for a lot of years, I can't even imagine, one divorce is bad enough - to ever go through this again. Somehow we have to heal. I haven't figured it out, but shrink number God knows what tomorrow is going to try to help me. I guess her take is we have to figure out how and why we ended up where we are - no this isn't he life we expected is it? And I do think that Little Book of Letting Go is right, there are themes, we are repeating over and over again. I didn't believe in a lot of psychology but the more I learn the more truth there is too it. Even Joyce Meyers said that she was a part of an abusive marriage, got divorced, remarried and even though she married the nicest man in the world he was wondering in months, "what's wrong with you." She didn't realize what was wrong with her, she grew up in an abusive home and thought everyone even her nice husband was plotting against her. I don't know about your upbringing but any of us have wounds from our childhood and certainly we react emotionally because of our past, sometimes in ways we don't understand. So I'm wondering from what you are saying here if you aren't like this preacher/author in some ways, your relationships are ending very quickly and your wives are wondering what's wrong and you don't realize what you are doing here. Her take is that we recreate over and over the disfunction that we are "used" to until we can heal, and I'm beginning to think we can't do it without God. Even AA uses a higher power for alcoholics, turning our "muck" over to Him, asking others for forgiveness. Even if we've made mistakes what's nice about faith is that we dont' have to spend the rest of our lives beating ourselves up. Paul in the Bible was one of the worst, and he became so spiritual, if he didn't forgive himself he'd have never moved forward in life. So even the bad guys out there purposefully messing up - can change. And I don't think from what you are saying here you are a bad guy, I think you are doing some very unintentional things in your relationships that are repeating over and over again. This last marriage is your "wake up call" and your friend isn't right, it's not about finding the right person, it's now about looking at yourself and seeing what you are contributing to this downward spiral. Perhaps you had a bit of a hole in your soul, I'm not saying your ex wasn't a crazy person - she does sound half nuts - but now is a good time to take the drivers seat in your life and stop blaming others. I've done the victim thing a long time so I'm talking to myself as well. Either way, if a marriage is over it's over isn't it? My ex moved on and I don't think he's really looking back - it's me doing this - rehashing, rehashing, rehashing something I can do nothing about. That you are even at this point of going to church, reading, asking for help is really significant, you are willing to look at yourself and to make changes to better yourself - a lot of people don't even come to this point. Seems you are at a turning point in your life, I hope you get some help, a good male mentor at a church and a good counselor - maybe both. I think if you could counsel with someone that could be a role model to you, that might even be more helpful then all the silly books...

I went to a counselor today, talked about some of these issues and I do think it goes back to Emotional Intelligence and what some of the books are saying. We think we are smart but we can't control our emotions - they say it goes to our childhoods and unless we go back through what happened, and heal we aren't in touch. We are disassociated, repeating over and over in our relationships the same stupid patterns. I'm thinking you have some patterns going here - so do I. So now the mission is to go to counseling and figure it out - last time I tried this in my 20s I was in a car accident. I never went to the counselor again that tried to get me to look at how "bad" my upbringing was.

Yeah, I was going to write a long answer to your last post but I wanted to think on it a bit.

I kind of think my counselor sort of messed things up for me. Part of the reason I was so depressed when my spouse started disconnecting from me is because I was convinced it was all my fault. I knew I was doing something wrong but didn't know what. I wanted help but I couldn't get any clues from my spouse as to what was missing and couldn't figure it out on my own.

When she ended our marriage, I was devastated and I went to the counselor completely broken. At that time, in mind, it was entirely my fault.

The counselor knew my wife for years before and her children as well. She told me I should be mad. She told me I was learning that my wife isn't who I believed she was and said she was learning that too. She encouraged me to blame my wife for it. She pointed out that I had come to our 3 joint counseling sessions ready to talk and negotiate and compromise and that my wife came unwilling to budge or give at all.

I then became very angry at my wife and blamed her entirely. Since then, I've been back and forth. One day I blame her and its all her fault. The next day its all my fault and I'm broken and need to fix myself. The next day its both of us. I'm not used to being so unstable so its been a really rough and difficult time for me the last 6 or so months.

I'm going to get and read that book (Emotional Intelligence). I'm not sure I completely agree with or subscribe to the theory that its all something rooted in my childhood that I'm repeating, but I'm not completely closed to that possibility either. I will be seeing a new counselor later this week and I think it'll be good for me to get a different perspective. I'll see where that takes me.

It seems like your counselor had a conflict of interest here, she shouldn't have been talking to you individually if it was "marriage" counseling so I've experience. A counselor did this in my marriage and set us up against each other. It was unethical, but I'm finding there's a lot of ethical issues in this business of shrinks. Your counselor shouldn't be telling you to blame your wife, she shouldn' be taking sides. Maybe she was taking your wife's side too, taking money from both of you? That's what our crooked "Christian" shrink did, he was very good at making money an he knew we both had it. Your shrink wasn't helping you "forgive' so that you can get on with your life, she was helping you hold on to anger. I haven't been able to find an ethical counselor with wisdom and I'm not going back to the one I just saw - I thought about it last night, she knew it all, put me into a box and told me my future that I'd do this again, she just "knows." There's a red flag right there, these shrinks seem to "just know" everything don't they. They are playing God so our only choice is to turn to God who has the answers. Even my dad's preacher said to me that it's very hard to find a counselor with wisdom, it's just the way it is. It doesn't seem that some of your friends are helping, but that's what frieds do, they ='ll take our side and trash our ex's with us. I don't know if that's healthy either. I'm going to go through some of the exercises in my books in a journal, I don't really want to go to counseling - I've done that. But there's books that help with the process of healing, Christian as well as not, like Spiritual Divorce. The only thing that's worked for me, where I can feel progress is the daily habit of reading something spiritual, praying, asking for help and forgiveness, and listening to quiet music. We can't relive the past like a broken recod every day - thus the need to forgive. Can you talk to your pastor about helping you forgive your wife? Forgiving is healing, I'm trying to do it as I wouldn't forgive my ex either. It's so unhealthy to hold onto all of this. That it's your third marriage you are holding onto this and more, you are killing yourself. Life is about joy, hard times come our way, we have to trudge through them and get on with our lives. I'm with you, I told the shrink yesterday I didn't agree with her theory that all is rooted in childhoods - we are grown ups - we can make our own choices - it's a blame game and I don't need to blame my parents, they did the best they could do - and it's disrespectful, my dad died and was a good man just old school. So my "needs" weren't entirely met as a child so this shrink said, well life goes on. God can help me meet my needs now - we are told to turn to him and not to other humans to find peace - humans will let us down, shrinks, spouses, everyone - even strangers on this board! I think you'll like the Emotional Intelligence book but take it with a grain of salt - seems like everyone has a theory and all theories go to an extreme. It does seem that the basic concepts are true from this book - and heck this shrink I met was threatened by the theory of the other shrink I met at Starbucks that told me to read this book. It goes against her theory that it's all about childhoods... Let me know what you think, maybe I'll bring it on my trip, I"m traveling for week so I won't be on this site much. Keep posting though and I'll catch up when I get back. I like chatting with you,.

horsey,

I hope your travels are going well. I've been a bit under the weather. When I'm feeling a bit better, I plan to read through everything here and give more of an update.

I've been a little sick too, I think something is going around. I have three more days of travel then a month where I don't do much - other then this month, moving forward with the divorce from ****** to what friendly folks on this site calll the manchild monster that I married. Maybe you can provide me with divorce info since you are experienced, I'm such an idiot, have been trying to hold onto a nothing marriage for years to a pig. My take: we all have "stuff" to work on, our own issues, some of this "stuff" can prevent us from functioning. My stuff is worry and anxiety, and how I blame myself for everything. I've basically enabled a jerk to be a jerk for years. I think most shrinks take psychology all too far, including the shrink I just fired that wanted me to go through my childhood, the worst thing my dad did was sit on his butt after work as men of his generation did. My mom was a top educator, an amazing Christain that raised four kids. If there's really all the muck there that this shrink is talking about I certainly don't remember it. I do think as a kid I was shy, my brothers were rude to me, and there was something do that as far as my anger towards men. And how I blame myself as growing up I was told I was wrong if there were any problems in the family, my ex constantly told me it was me. I don't know about all of this - maybe as one shrink said I have already read too much, so many psychology books and truth is I just need to finish my divorce, get on with my life and quite analyzing life and marriage.

Lol...

I have to respond in brief right now. Hang in there.

Divorce laws vary from state to state so I'm not sure how much help I can be, but I've been through it enough times to at least know the jist of it (not to mention having regular involvement in the legal system).

I've been really down the last few days. I see a church counselor tomorrow. I'm trying the Christian counseling perspective since the secural counselor didn't do me any good.

I think that the ONLY perspective is Christian. I fired the counselor I told you about that blamed it on my childhood. I don't buy it. An old counselor was right, I grew up with a better then most childhood. I think that the shrink I saw was psycho the other week. Honestly I've been through bunches of these secular counselors, and I told one of the final ones, the only thing thats worked for me is God, journaling, praying and the spiritual angle. Tell me how it goes ok? I'm thinking of calling the pastor at my new church. My ex might have hurt my boy three weeks ago. My boy came home from an overnight saying "daddy pushed me off the bed." He had a big bruise and cut. I turned it over to the police and they tried to turn it on me. I'ts been ****** ever since but I know now I need to finish my divorce. While I was traveling a cop I met in another state said "God" is the answer, as I was telling him I'd been crying for days. I wanted to go get prozac to deal with all of this. My ex is a banker, always presents himself as perfect, he's going to try to turn this on me. I am very fearful and I have to believe the cop is right, God over prozac. I think you have been through a lot. I hope you find some peace. I am glad you are getting Christian help. I wouldn't even personally try any other type of help.

Well, I'm very afraid...

I spoke to the Christian counselor. This was sort of just an "assessment" of sorts and I didn't get much advice.

He then asked for my wife's phone number. He wants to call her and speak to her.

He then wants to speak to both of us if she'll agree.

I think his goal is to get us back together. There's part of me that certainly wants that. There's part of me that doesn't. But I sort of feel like the thing has been rehashed all over again. I've been really down and crying again almost every day/night. *Sigh* I just wish the cycles would end.

I feel really torn now. But the counselor assured me that the next time we met he would have a plan for me. He said he liked to get both sides of the story, even if my wife wouldn't come in and meet together with me.

He never once mentioned my past. He did say something that I have said to others 100 times before. He said he believed in common denominators. He said in my 3 divorces there was 1 thing in common and that was me. I have said this over and over and over again to other people. In fact once when my 3rd wife said I was just like her ex, I proceeded to tell her that perhaps it was that she was treating me just like she treated her ex (not the right answer, but anyway). So at least I agree with him on one thing.

He also stopped me mid sentence on something else and pointed out something to me, a pattern, that I had never seen or realized before. A subtle thing that is probably a major issue to my wife. In all of my prior counseling, no one ever picked up on it. He said something to the effect of what you do in your angery moments is what you are doing in your calm, just with less passion. Before, there was something I had done that I justified as reactionary to what my wife had done, but he correlated it to an earlier behavior I had never realized before.

So at least in some ways I'm encouraged. But I'm afraid to. I don't want to hope again. I don't know what I want <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I'm so afraid if I get my hopes up I'll just be let down again.

Oh yeah, the Christian counselors won't ever give up. That's what I didn't tell you. My husband physically hurt me and the final Christian counselor was trying to get us to reconcile, I'd move to a new town, finally left the jerk and knew it needed to end...

Sometimes it's very UNHELPFUL to rehash something all over again as you say. I actually read in a divorce book it hurts more to divorce after trying again to reconcile then just ending the marriage that's over. It doesn't sound like your ex wants to reconcile does it?

Personally that he needs to call her to get "her side" is interesting too. Most secular counselors wouldn't do that I don't think. In fact they'd see it as a conflict of interest - the client confidentiality thing. A counselor that talked to us separately I think made our marriage worse, my husband agrees. He was playing both of us. He claimed to be a so called Christian counselor.

I think you have to remember that a counselor is supposed to help you make decisions, not tell you what to do. This guy can cause more hurt and pain it appears, and you really need to access if you or your ex would even be open to reconciliation before going down the road of "hope" all over again. I've done it during a 2-1/2 year separation.

You haven't done the "clean cut" with your ex as you are going to the same church, lingering in her life. Yet it sounds like she wants more of a clean cut? Is that right? I just read a divorce book today and it said it takes everyone an average of 2-3 years to really decide to divorce or not. Thus I don't feel as crazy hanging out separated for almost three years. But if you know it's over then the healing process isn't going to happen if a so called Christian counselor is going to talk you into trying to hold on to something that's long gone.

I called a church here that has a divorcecare program. The secretary said when I asked for the name of a local Christian counselor... um, well, I don't know that a Christian counselor is going to "help you get a divorce." She gave me the name of the nimwit I went to see twice that I won't go back to. A unitarian and I think she was gay too, not that it matters, but she was like a man. Called me a wimp and was abusive herself. Anyways I don't know what the answer is - because I think the secretary at the church is right, most Christian counselors will try to hold a marriage together - even in the face of abuse like my marriage. In my case I could have and likely should have been on with my life long ago. And the Christian counselors made me feel guilty, and forced me to rehash the same issues over and over again.

If you are going to see this dude again you might want to figure out the "rules" of your counseling with him. That you would like to figure out what you've done wrong, you don't need a Christian to put a guilt trip on you, but you are open to ideas... I don't know what to say. And actually I might have been wrong about my "only a Christian counselor" thing because they are the ones that gave me the worst advice during my marriage and helped the least. I went to about 3 Christian counselors and about as many non-Christians. When I was on business last week I went to my old non-Christian counselor where I used to live. I decided he was the best, most honest and decent one of the bunch. I'm going to see if he'll do some phone counseling as I only travel there every two months. Or I'll just meet him when I'm there.

Counselors are a weird bunch to me. I'm concluding that I'm more sane then most of them. I'm with Dr. Phil and Dr. Harley who both say that the advice from most counselors in this country is so often absurd and rediculous. That's why all of the self help books are so popular, or the self help approach to counseling that both take. Maybe it's time for a call to Dr. Harley himself?

If you want to read another book, the Christian book called Hope for the Separated is a good one. I think this counselor is going off ideas from that book. Actually if your wife is open to reconciling you could ask her to read that book - the author suggests both read it. It offers amazing hope. My husband wouldn't go to church, or Christian counselors. I think on one hand our marriage could have been saved if he had done what you are doing - apologized, went to church, got counseling and help. I was "waiting" for that even if I told him I wasn't. Your wife might in the back of her head be wondering too. Maybe this counselor can help find out for you. So I'm talking back some of what I said here. Dr. Dobson says the divorce rate is too high, but men especially are more willing to change when women are tough with them - and it's during painful separations and divorces perhaps that we are most willing to look at ourselves. You are certainly brave here, as I think most, especially men, find it easier to just move on then look at themselves and change. Our final Christian counselor told me, it was my ex's third marriage, obviously there were problems in the past or he wouldn't be divorced twice - and since it was his third marriage he'd have more incentive then ever to look at himself and the problems in his relationships. I was the one who gave up, I didn't listen to counselors, I had one foot out the door of this marriage for a very long time, I blamed everything on him and it was easier to move on then to try to fix our problems... if your wife sees that you are going to counseling, that you are reading, learning, trying to figure this out there is a chance, as this counselor says that she'll open her heart up again. Dr. Phil says to turn over every rock possible before ending a relationship, that you owe it to yourself and the other person to do this. Hope you are well.

Well, the counselor I saw said that he believes the only biblical grounds for divorce is adultery and that he also refuses to counsel woman to remain in or return to abusive situations. He was forward on those issues.

I've read Hope for the Separated already. My wife doesn't want to reconcile, at least not that I can see. I don't know what I want anymore. I'm confused again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I can't stand the person I perceive her to be today and what she has become. But I miss what we had and the person I met and fell in love with. I don't know if that was a dream and I was blind and saw what I wanted to see or perhaps today I am mad and I am blind and I'm seeing what I need to see today to feed my anger. Who knows.

I'll give this counselor a chance and see where it leads. I'm not expecting any cooperation from my wife at all.

It's been really important to my wife to "not be wrong" in this all along and so she's going to have to sit on the other end of the table and be told by others now that she's wrong if she chooses the divorce. I think that will be a difficult choice for her. She's had a lot of support until now (even within the church). I wouldn't be surprised if she stopped going. Remember, she didn't want to go to that church or attend regularly until AFTER we separated.

I think it's a female thing partly. Friends and family aren't as helpful as we think when we are having marriage problems. They tend to side with us, and then enable us to go on and on about being victims. Most marriages are filled with fights the first year. It's the dream vs. realty thing. You both saw each other as you wanted to, that's the illusion of love. Realty is different, it's the day to day stuff and it's difficult. You know that, but she has everyone feeling sorry for her telling her to leave you. Divorce is easy, people mean well, they want to see her stop hurting. But to get to the point in marriage where it's for life, you have to forge through the fights and the hard times. The best of couples have. Truth is if you got the truth out of anyone married a long time, they've all been through rough times I bet ya. I'm glad your counselor is above the jerks I counseled with, because I think it's unethical what they told me in my marriage. I stayed and had a child with this man I should have divorced long ago. My boy is the love of my life but I'm going through ****** and he's not going to have a father. It's sad. I do blame some so called Christian counselors who helped me enable this man that was a pig. In your case though you sound like you tried, most of your problems were the typical stuff - especially money issues. Premarital counseling could have helped but that's hindsight. Everyone leaving a marriage is angry. They feel like they lost the dream and the other person lied. When you married her you saw her good traits, once married you put her under a microscope, saw the flaws and thought you were cheated - so did she ok? Likely she blamed your previous marriages as "proof" of what a jerk you were in arguments. Your track record. Anything to justify her leaving you. People rallied behind her. There wasn't a professional counselor to help you work through this as a couple - keeping others out of your marriage. Of course you are seeing what you need to see, feeding your anger, that's divorce ******. It's also a stage in the grieving process. For you it's worse since you once again failed, it's not a first. You are not only mad at her but everyone before her and you are blaming. Human nature. Seems as though we have to get through this anger to heal, the Elisabeth Kubler Ross stages of grief. Somehow you'll have to get "unstuck" and out of your anger to the acceptance. You can give the counselor a chance but if it's really over you might need to not use this man to "help" you as he might actually hurt you as you move through the process of getting over this marriage. If adultry is the only reason for divorce, then he's not going to "help" you grieve and get on with your life. He might even start blaming. Be careful, I think all counselors have a potential to be dangerous and counter productive. Even Christian counselor. Know when enough is enough if it comes to that. as for it being important to your wife to "not be wrong" it tells you she's not as mature as you. She's not willing to look at what she contributed to a failed marriage and likely she contributed a whole lot. We all have our garbage and baggage, it doesn't work this way - that we can walk away blaming the other person for all of our hurt. You too have been doing what she has in many ways - and you too have your friends and family doing what hers is doing, pointing the figure at the other person. That's where the Spiritual Divorce stuff is handy. Use this time to work through your anger and grief, figure out what you contributed, what patterns you are repeating in your life, and what this means. You'll come out a better wiser person for it. And it just might be that when you stop fighting her, and pointing the finger at her, when you show her that you are getting counseling, and help, there could be a change of heart on her part. God works in mysterious ways. We don't know the answers. The counselor doesn't know the answer. Sometimes we have to get hit in the head, slammed hard with hurt and pain - for God to work. That your wife didn't want to go to church or attend until after you separated says that she's thinking... she's reacting, blaming and doing what we all do - but she's making some attempts as you are to figure this out. Give this guy a chance, pray a lot, and even pray for your ex. Write down today what you loved about her, stop focusing on what you hate, stop blaming, soften your own heart here and she'll soften up too. Best wishes.

I appreciate the words. You've given me a lot to think about, once again.

The counselor told me that he wanted to meet with my wife and then he was going to try to bring us both in (if she will). He said he would have a plan for me even if she wouldn't come. He said one fo the first things would be for me to think about what was the same in each of my three marriages so its obvious he is going to focus on patterns, etc.

But I think I've gotten past the fear and anxiety. I'm actually anxious now. I've been reading again and self examining. I think I've reached the point where I just don't care. You know what, if my wife wants to come, I'm open to whatever happens. I know that I have a lot to work on right now regardless of whether my wife comes or not.

Regardless of whether my future is with my wife or with a new wife or alone, I'm in no position to make those decisions right now (and probably not going to be in that position for some time). That's one of the few things that I am sure of.

I'm starting a new blog to follow my travels through self transformation. I think it'll be good to have a place to write and vent and self reflect. I discover myself a lot through writing about what I'm going through. I often write something and then reading it realize a lot more is coming through then I originally intended or was aware was there. I often have to go back and edit, remove things, etc., but it helps me to expose to myself things that I may not see or in some cases may not want to see. And often cases as I begin discovering new things, I go back and read older pieces (older can be just a few weeks old sometimes) and it often helps me to connect things and fill in blanks, etc.

I love journaling, it's the same process, and this chat site. Sometimes we don't know why until we look back. Today I talked to a divorce attorney, my thoughts are so different now then even a month ago, and especially since over a year ago when I filed, and 2-1/2 years ago when I left my ex. I used to be so angry, blaming and blaming, and lately there's more of a peace - like what you are finding, what will happen will happen. I think it comes from a trust in God. You don't know how your ex will respond. Neither does the counselor. You can work on yourself and find in your heart to realize you and your ex are human, you made mistakes - healing can take place if you get a divorce or not. That your counselor is working quickly to get a plan in place shows that he's competent. Our final marriage counselor spent three sessions discussing restaurants to go to when we were seriously in a crisis and needed help. I've read that a counselor should have a plan by just a few sessions. A competent one will be able to help you both see your issues, problems and will help mediate. That's what you and her need it sounds like. Hopefully he'll tell you and her to stop listening to friends and family that "mean well" like your friends telling you just divorce and find the perfect mate out there. I'm glad you are moving forward, you sounded so sad at first. At least you are finding a little peace. In many ways you remind me of my ex I suppose first because of the three divorce thing... you are professional, smart and more insecure then your wife realizes. Thus the way you react to her it seems, and she to you. My one counselor that said it's all about self protection I think was right, I used to think my ex was out to get me, I kept things stirred up, made everything worse actually, and blamed him for my own problems and his. So I can see that she's doing that to you - and in our society it's very easy, especially as a woman to cry victim and run. In the good old days parents and friends didn't get involved in another's marriage problems - maybe it wasn't bad that it was that way, because I think a lot of well meaning advice is actually very harmful to a marriage. I hope you can bring this back to you, your wife - and pray a counselor backed by God. If not at least you are giving it a shot before calling it quits. Any marriage deserves that.

*sigh*...

The hornets nest is stirred up again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I did something I probably shouldn't have done before I went see the counselor (a week or so before). I made a comment that got back to my wife. It wasn't intended the way it was interpreted and certainly wasn't supposed to get back to my wife. Ugh!!! Stupid Man!!! Stupid Man!!! Stupid Man!!! I'm already getting wind of activities on that front now. I would say its a one step forward two steps back but its more like ten steps backwards and then another ten steps backwards and then ten more steps backwards.

I found your comments very interesting. Of course I'll never really know what she's thinking or feeling because she won't tell me, but you've given me something to consider that I hadn't thought about before. Perhaps she isn't acting out against me, but she is perceiving that I'm acting out against her and she is reacting to it.

That creates an interesting scenario because if that were true, what is really happening is we are on a cycle or provoking each other and then reacting. In reality, neither one of us is out to get the other and yet we both perceive it that way and we're in a vicious cycle.

The thing is, even if that's the case, I keep trying to be the bigger person and not react to her and I succeed for a while but even then, I keep messing up. Sooner or later I do something that is misunderstood or perceived as an attack again and it just starts the mess over again.

*sigh*...

I'm going to try my best not to react, but I have a feeling a wave of attacks are headed my way <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Its going to be rough and be very difficult for me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> This is going to be very distracting and probably going to increase the difficulty of the counseling program I'm just starting <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I'm fairly certain it will decrease her participation if not completely eliminate it (not that I felt all that confident she would participate to begin with).

Why do we men do such stupid things <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I do think the both of you are in a vicious cycle responding and provoking each other as you say. As Dr. Harley says if one person stops being abusive usually the other stops too. It takes two to tango... We as women do expect men to be the bigger person, we like to blame men and it's easy in our society as there aren't a lot of strong men out there acting as head of households. If my ex had stop reacting to me, likely I would have stopped, instead he kept getting back at me, or what a counselor called protecting himself. If you see your wife as a hurting person like you, with weaknesses and strengths then you won't be so defensive to her. Hurting people hurt and strike out. It's not just men doing stupid things - it's both men and women hurting each other rather then working together. If only you two could find a common ground and stop the dance of anger. By the way, there's another book for you Dance of Anger.

I've got to take back part of what I said. I don't think the Christian way is the only way. I think the Christian way can be filled with guilt, criticism and an odd sense of elitism. The counselor I went to the other day was right, what's worked best for me in the past is mindfulness. I told her I left my husband, had a baby, my dad was dying of the worst cancer, I was trying to maintain my business and have a little peace. My mom keeps saying to pray now, and go to church. Honestly in the church I've found little help and I've tried a number of churches since splitting from my husband the past 2-1/2 years. I still go mind you, I just don't get very involved. I've found most of the Christian counselors simplistic and silly. What I found to help me the most, and this woman is right, at the most difficult point in my life I practiced yoga and meditation. I learned about mindfulness, breathing and eating right. I'm more unsettled lately then I was when all of this was going on. That was because I worked so hard to stay centered. I think you and your wife are feeding anger with anger. It doesn't work, the more your hurt her the more she'll strike back and you and vice versa. There's many good readings out there on mindfulness and anger. The shirnk was right, even the past few days I went back to my buddhist books on anger, mediation and peace, and I listened to healing music, mostly from tibet and far east countries and viola, I'm back to feeling more centered. I wish I could believe like I was raised to, I'll likely always go to church, but as for preachers and counselors hammering on me I'm a bit sick of it. The other Sunday the preacher said that so many are saying they get more help in the "world" then in church, it upset him. But since I'm telling you the truth here, the preacher has been right at least in my last few years - I found more help from non-Christian friends and mostly judgment and unacceptance from Christians other then my mom and some friends I grew up with. Seems like the wanted to put the Scarlet D on my forehead, divorce. Christians should be reaching out to those in need, but often times they do the opposite, they condemn. Life is hard, even Christians have as big of a divorce rate as non-Christians so I am a little weary of the arrogance I've found in churches. I hope your new counselor works for you but I'm just wondering if you shouldn't mix Christianity with a little Buddhism, or at the very least yoga and mindfulness. Mindfulness teaches us to check ourselves several times throughout the day, to breathe and center ourselves as the world is so stressful. I personally create a lot of my own stress with worry, mindfulness teaches us to worry about only what is important, and to let the rest go. Our anger can consume us. Look at what happened in my marriage, rather then letting my anger go, I was generally mad all of the time, then I wondered why my ex was difficult, withdrawn and struck back at me. Not saying it was all my fault, but if I knew what I knew now I would have known how to get myself back to the state of mindfulness through breathing, yoga, music, relaxation and I wouldn't have misused my angry feelings. We still might have separated but I wouldn't feel the guilt of what I had to do with it all - as I know how angry and out of control I was. I see that in you and your wife, if only you could agree with each other that peace is the way, rather then the hurt game. it just seems so sad that people who "love" each other in anger just hurt and hurt. It's a very backwards self protection method...