I bought the Law of Attraction book too, it's sort of crazy, I can't seem to get through it but I'll try as it's very popular as well. You have to be even more open minded for this one. I'm with you, I think some of it is "out there" but whatever the reason is "it works"... already just watching my mind I've made changes in the past few weeks - just shutting up on some of the negativity. Why be negative and mope, life is supposed to be about joy, that's Biblical. How can we be a "light to the world" if we are going to church then whining constantly?

Do help me with ideas, I just found the letter to the court and I actually have until lJune 6th, the date they'll dismiss my divorce if I don't give thhem a reason that it shouldn't be dismissed. I'd like to do a motion to mediation, so at least we'll get everything on the table. This state is 50-50 so I'll get half of his retirement, everything even since we've been separated - and since he didn't pay child support for a year, refused a dime and thought he'd come out "good" on this - I might as well go for what I deserve, besides he's emailed the ex girlfriend and others how I "took the dough" as he called it. Didn't take a dime yet and I'm getting 1/2 the child support I'd get if I'd finish this mess. My mom was just on the phone going on and on about "continue this, get it over with" - everyone is sick of hearing about this. What is he gaining from dragging this on and on? It does appear he wants to reconcile but isn't making an effort to do anything differently, but he's 50, 12 years older then me, and you are a lot younger - I think part of it's his age, a shrink told my best friend once that once a guy is 30 or so, maybe 35, the chances of any real change are slim, so much of this is life habit don't you think? I'm "waiting" for God to intervene or something. Wish there was a way to say "work on this marriage" NOW or divorce. But I don't even know if I want him to "work on the marriage" - in the past that meant counselors, him "talking" about change and everything the same or worse.

I do need to know why two ex's want to get back with you though? My husband's two ex's I wonder about, one called while we were together because his dad died, I think she was thinking the same thing, remembering the good times - if I wasn't around she'd have tried. She's single now and I wonder if they've looked each other up. This is different then the girl he's emailed. Gosh, could it be that in looking back you remember more the good times then the bad? I read in a counseling book that's true of going through a divorce, you start to remember more the good - in my case I think it's true, so why wouldn't it be for the ex's from 10-15 years ago? I mean this man I married is fun, he loves to travel, so long as everything is shallow and there's no arguments - meaning you stay out of his way as he runs around nitpicking everything - life is fine. But fairly hard to stay out of the way of someone this critical. I can't imagine what he did to me was new.

But they are doing what I'm partially doing, trying to remember the best. I think the mind plays tricks don't you - thus the SECRET. If the mind is going to play tricks why not look at ONLY or MOSTLY the positive. I think I could have made this marriage work if I'd worked on myself, diversified my life and made my marriage only a small part of it, worked very hard to stay positive, and quit worrying about him and nagging. I wonder if the Secret is right, how it works with a control freak, I mean if they had a positive wife/girlfriend if it brings out the best in them and makes them mellow out? I brought out the best in him dating as I wasn't around all of the constant nit picking. It was long distance, a weekend relationship for three years before we married. Then the marriage stuff came in and I concentrated on the negatives, don't we all, when we marry the microscopes come out and we feel cheated seeing "reality."

Anyways we are on page 6 of this thread you and I... think we'll set a record? I enjoy chatting with you. Seems like we just think a lot in some ways - I appreciate your chatting with me. I don't know if in six pages we've made any progress though. Just chatting is helpful sometimes.

Lol, I agree, I've enjoyed chatting...

Not sure this thread will be useful to anyone else though <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

There's a lot in there again. I will respond in detail tonight or tomorrow at the latest. It will probably be a very long response since you've asked a lot and I have a lot of thoughts on some of this.

I've been dong the positive thinking thing and I've been feeling a lot better today. I even went look at a house today and liked it enough I could almost buy it now (though I want to look around a bit more first).

Anyway, I'm on the way out the door. I'll respond later in tons of detail.

I can't believe how FORWARD moving you are. Guess you've been through this before. A house already. I don't know why I'm such a chicken about life... here I've traveled the world, I thought I was independent and I'm a wimp. Stuck. Just started reading the book What Happy People Know. I've been hitting the library these days and this one has some interesting "stuff" in it. Same old theme though, we make OURSELVES happy, it's not as dependent on money, the right relationship, lifestyle, etc as one would think. Mostly it's a thought process - but how do we get from theory to applying this "stuff?" Buying a home is a huge step, I'm chatting with the right person - someone brave.

I wouldn't characterize me as brave.

I've been wanting to buy a house for a long time. Actually, this is about 1/3rd the house of what I actually want. But the catch is that I need to find a place to rent and around here, the going rate for 2 bedroom rental units is about $700/mo. On the program, I can buy a small 3 bedroom brick home for $100,000 on a very small piece of land and get a fixed 4.5% interest and have a note of about $500/mo.

I've actually been itching to get into rental units and so I sort of view this like my first rental unit, except that I'll live in it for a few years while I finish up school.

In some ways, one of the ways I've dealt with the pain in the past is through keeping myself busy. It's almost an avoidance behavior if I have to be honest about it. So, definitely not bravery, more like cowardship. It's just that I am level headed enough to make some reasonable decisions financially about business, investment, house, etc. during that time so busy can be a good thing for me.

I love to read as I've mentioned here. And I apply a lot of it to my life. I think it's a drive more than a methodology of application. I am determined to fix what is broke. And I know that these things help me to do that. I'm determined not to let myself be swallowed by the things beyond my control. I hate what I'm going through. I can almost use the word hate to describe how I feel about my soon to be ex wife in the moments I'm not missing her. But I have to make it through and be victorious. So I'm determined. I'm driven. Failure isn't an option.

I'm moving forward today and at lightening speed. But that's me, always has been. When I'm determined, you can't stop me. In a few weeks, I'll be moping again and standing still. The thing is, I move enough forward in my moments of drive to keep me taking a step forward. So when I stand still for a bit or even take a step back or two, I'm well ahead of where I was say a few months ago.

But in some ways that's the surface. I'm still a broken sad person underneath. But I keep telling myself I'm happy and things are moving forward. And for a little bit every now and then I believe it and I do move forward until I realize that I'm still broken. By no means should you think I'm brave or good or otherwise. I'm as broken as they come <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I'm just making myself take a step forward.

I'm going back through the posts now. I'm going to try to respond in more detail to some of the questions you posed.

WARNING: EXTREMELY LONG, LOTS OF TOPICS, MAY NOT BE WORTH YOUR TIME TO READ ... LOL

Horsey,

I'm going back through your last few posts and responded point by point to a few items...

> You mentioned about your ex chosing to go out when he was there to be with his son

That is a really disappointing behavior on his part. In a marriage, you need to consider your spouse as equally important as the kids. I think the school of thought to put the kids first is damaging. Not only does it damage the marriage but it's setting the wrong blueprint for the children and how they will view their relationships when they grow up. I think that is particularly important in step parent situations because there is already a broken marriage before the children.

That doesn't mean I think the kids take back seat. But the family unit requires some of both. There is a time when the kids are first and foremost. And there are times when the couple needs to put their partner first.

Now, in this case, during his visit, given it's limited times, only every so often, etc., the child should be his ONLY focus. It really is ashamed that he is so selfish as to come over during a visit and then to run off and chase tail or whatever he is doing at the expense of time with his son.

> You alude to a question of why doesn't he move to end the marriage

There's all sorts of possibilities there and I doubt I can do anymore than speculate. Perhaps in one way or another he still has hope. Perhaps he is afraid that he'll get cleaned out in the divorce and is afraid to face it or let it progress. Perhaps he just doesn't see the point in dealing with it at all. Perhaps being his third, it's so painful that he's engaging in avoidance. No telling really, all sorts of possibilities.

> You ask about deciding what to do

You really do need to do some searching and make a decision. If there is hope, then you need to get in there and go after it. If there isn't, it's my opinion that it's time to move forward, whatever that may be.

There are no winners in divorce. I could understand in some ways the hesitance. But what do you have right now? The two of you aren't a marriage. If you don't think that will ever be or you won't go after it, you're already divorced, you're just hiding it under a different name and don't have the papers to prove it.

I'm not saying that to be mean, but it's the simple truth.

> You refer to a lot of it being your fault

Let me ask you a question. What have you changed? Have you changed in such a way that if not a single thing about him has changed that your marriage would work? If not, then I'd say it's time to move on.

If however you think you're changes alone, without him changing a single thing, are enough for the marriage to work, then I'd think there's hope for things yet. But standing still isn't the answer. You need to either go after reconciliation or go ahead and shut it down.

That's my opinion. And keep in mind, I've never divorced anyone in my life. I just went along for the ride. I didn't want any of my divorces when they were happening.

That's the funny thing. In hindsight, I'm really glad I'm not with my first and second wives anymore. Those were some really bad marriages. They were destructive to me, regardless of what I did wrong. If I hadn't done a thing wrong and with all of my changes today, I wouldn't take either one of them back. Neither of those marriages would work today. I know I had faults in both of those marriages, but I really do blame both of those spouses almost exclusively for the divorces and for the marriage failing. And that's with me looking back and analyzing. I know what I did wrong in the marriages. They've never stopped reminding me. But I know that my faults didn't justify their reactions. And I don't trust them at all today.

> Do I like salads

I love salads. The problem is, I like so much junk on them, they are no longer healthy. My idea salad has cheese and bacon shreds and chicken and eggs and blue cheese dressing on it. Maybe garnish with raw onions, bell pepper, sunflower seeds or whatever. The lettuce is just there to hold it all together. So I don't eat them that often. I know I don't make them healthy.

That said though, our local Target Super Center stocks some salads that are premade and have a reasonable amount of calories in them with the egg, cheese, bacon shreds and dressing all counted in. I get one of those at least 1 day a week here.

My thing is I eat when food is in front of me. If there isn't food in front of me, I skip meals until I am starving and then I eat badly. I often don't eat anything until I get home at night which then is the worst time I can eat.

In bringing meals to work, I've been getting various things like prepackaged salads, frozen dinners (diet meals), the South Beach Diet lunch kits, etc. I'm not per say following a strict diet, but my eating habits have improved substantially. I'm bringing a lunch cooler to work now. Whatever I do, I have to stay out of the cafeteria. The new catoring company is serving the equivelant of plate lunches every day. Being South Louisiana, the food here is really unhealthy (lots of fried foods, lots of smothered foods, lots of starches/carbs, etc.).

I've never had difficulty following low carb diets in the past. In fact I've been very successful on the Atkins diet a few years back when I needed to lose a fair bit of weight. But the problem is keeping the weight off. Those diets are very hard to maintain as lifestyle changes.

I'm actually doing a lot better with the gradual weight loss through lifestyle change. I'm not even trying to keep it off, it's just happening. To be honest, I'm really not trying that hard to lose either. It's just happening to <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

> You mentioned wanting to focus on the future and quit obsessing on the past

Quit obsessing, yes. But we still need to evaluate our past so we can improve ourselves for our future. But, to re-iterate my prior statement:

I think we can do a lot of improvement while looking forward.

Notice that isn't exclusive. There's a time to look back. But a LOT of our improving can be done without staring at the past. A quick look, identify the areas where change is needed and then spend a season looking forward. Every so often you need to look back again. See, as you grow, when you look back, you will see more clearly the things that put you where you were. They may not be what you thought they were last time you looked back. So glancing back every now and then will help you to move forward in the right direction. Just don't stay looking back. Don't obsess on it.

I know what I need to do, now to just make myself do it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (I'm preaching to myself as much as I am sharing with you here).

> over thinking

Hehehe, that's my problem. Mort Fertel uses a phrase that I love: analysis paralysis.

> on the secret

I'm going to save my response to The Secret to a later post. In fact I'll post this and let you digest it and then come back through. I still need to answer your second post after that. And at some point I'll come back and write a bit on my thoughts on The Secret and The Law of Attraction.

> on the ex's

I'm not sure what to think there.

When my second marriage ended, my first ex immediately made her move. But it was weird. She didn't say she loved me and wanted me back. It was a lot more krass than that. She called and asked if I would consider letting her be a roommate.

I told her no. She pressed for a reason. Rather than being honest and telling her I was completely repulsed by her, I tried to put it on me and said "To be honest it would really screw with my emotions and I'm not sure I could handle you being a roommate without me building up unreasonable expectations." I thought sure that would run her off because she did not say she wanted to be with me, in fact she was still very bitter at me about a lot of things. I figured she'd run the other direction. I got the opposite reaction though.

First, she called back the next day and said something like "I can see you really changed because the old you would have done anything just to get me back in bed with you. I think it can work though, I mean us as roommates. Let's give it a try and if it bothers you too much, I'll move out." I said no again.

Then, she called back a few hours later and says, "Well, I've thought about it and I know what you mean by unreasonable expectations. But I've thought about it. It's not like we weren't together for 8 1/2 years. I'd be okay with having sex with you and sleeping in the same bed if you let me come back."

Wow... I didn't know what to say. Fortunately, as much as I do enjoy intimacy, I'm not so driven by it that I can't reason or say no. I quickly said no and ended that conversation.

But fortunately, I saw through her actions. She was remarried and not happy where she was at. She wanted out and I was a way out for her. She was willing to use any means necessary to get out. She thought the idea of sex by itself would motivate me, but it didn't.

She ended up staying with him for a bit longer.

Now, we stayed talking over the years, but mainly on the account of the kids. When I remarried, I cut our conversations purely to business about the kids and would quickly end the conversation when she got off topic. I thought doing anything other than that would be disrespectful to my wife. I didn't want to give her reasons not to trust me, particularly since I am completely repulsed by my ex wife.

After she found out my third marriage fell apart, she started talking to me again. I guess the only reason I entertained her calls is because I was lonely. I even met with her a few times. She would ask me for money and things and it was really obvious to me that she was using me again and looking for a way out from her marriage again. But I was essentially doing the same. It was companionship for me. Not intimate or romantic. I'm not even physically attracted to her anymore.

But, she got more aggressive in her effort to manipulate me. She has known that I love children and that I've always wanted a little girl. So she immediately started telling me she wanted a baby and she wanted to have my baby. She was so forward as to ask me to get her pregnant right away even before she left her husband and that she would leave him and come back to me and that she was sure we could make it work.

I was very non committal. Instead of saying flat out no, I would just say that I wasn't ready and we'd have to take things one day at a time. That was unfair of me to say that becuase it wasn't true. I don't want her even if she can give me the child I desire. But somehow I justified being dishonest about it by knowing that she was using me. I know clearly that she was using me to try to get out of her current marriage.

Well, she gave up pretty quick when I didn't respond. Well, she did eventually leave her second husband. She tried to get me to take her back a few more times and when that didn't work out, her family rescued her. She immediately made clear she wanted nothing to do with me (this validated my read on her prior efforts and motives).

My second ex then started after me as well. I don't want her back either. She was remarried as well. But her third marriage wasn't working out. I talked with her and met with her a few times as well. But there were no feelings at all. I wasn't attracted. I couldn't even bring myself to think about us being back together. She actually made a few physical passes at me where I had to really reject her strongly. I won't even let her get in a vehicle with me anymore because she decided to "start playing" while I was driving and I ended up having to pull over and et out of the vehicle to stop her. And that was hard on me, as much as I was hurting, part of me just wanted to let her have her way. But I'm not a cheater. Even though my third wife through me out, at that point I had not accepted it was over yet and felt like I'd be cheating if I did anything.

But as we talked, something really weird happened with my second ex. She kept telling me how she never wanted the divorce. She is the one who left. I didn't want her to. I wanted to work things out after she left. She went through with it. Now, she started screwing around (literally a different guy every night) after she left and I am the one that filed for divorce. She did ask me a couple of times to take her back, but I was done at that point. But even though I pressed for the divorce, I didn't want the marriage to end when she left. But after she left and after I saw the real her, I had no desire to take her back. Since she wasn't moving on the divorce, I moved on it. She looks at it like I divorced her. I look at it like she divorced me even though I moved the legal process.

Actually, now that I think about it, when my first ex filed for divorce and then never finished it, I found a reconventional demand (counter sued for divorce) and won. But my reasons weren't that I wanted a divorce. I had a very successful business that was falling apart because of the divorce and I was trying to get myself freed from that mess. It ended up failing anyway. It was too late by the time I got the divorce but that was my effort.

My second wife has since left her husband as well. She has tried several times since (as recently as today) to get me to take her back. I just don't want her back.

As I'm writing this post, I sort of feel ashamed in a way because I realize that I'm using her as much as she's trying to use me right now. I like having the attention and someone to talk to when I'm feeling so lonely. I have no intention whatsoever of EVER taking her back. I have plenty of friends and other people I can chat with where I don't have to be misleading about my intentions. I was justifying it by knowing that she's essentially using me the same, but that really doesn't justify it.

*sigh*... that gives me something to think on...

I'm going to close here for tonight. I'll respond to your other post tomorrow.

Wow, I'll have to read this later when I have time.... have a good day..

1. About the kid/his visits - I'm with you, if he drives, flies, whatever to come two states away he ought to spend more time with his boy, not 50-50 with his "buddies" or whoever it might be two hours north of here. Last time he said "you know what I'm doing, I've been doing this for a year..." What does that mean, it's not the "guys" is it? Why does it matter. As a shrink said, look at this mans CHARACTER, or lack thereof. All you have to do so the shrink said is "look at what he says, vs. what he does." So he says he wants to be with his boy "all the time" and even on these weekend visits every 2-3 weeks he comes, spends an afternoon, maybe a night then runs off for a day and a night, and an am with his buddies or whoever, whatever this other life is. What do you think it is by the way?

2. Why doesn't he want to conclude the divorce? Perhaps it is because it's his third and it's denial. Or he thinks I'll "wake up" and get over whatever it is I'm going through as he once said and will magically move back. Partly he's worried about his money, and custody of his boy. He "attempted" to job hunt here and didn't follow through, is likely going to keep his corporate job in a small town as he has it made and it's his retirement. Maybe he doesn't want to admit to friends/family - other then dates if that's what he's doing - that another marriage really did fail, he wants it to look like we'll reconcile? Shame? Guilt? Or that he has his cake and can eat it too? Takes pics of me when he's here then tells coworkers he's going to see his wife and kid (I stopped in this town last summer and that's what he was doing a year ago)? So it's convenient for him to "say" he has a wife that he visits when he's really up to who knows what?

3. If there is hope I need to "go there" as you say. Hey, how about just flat out asking him "are you seeing someone?" I tried to call him and ask today, he must be driving back. You know he didn't answer his phone, I think he turns it off wherever he is while he's still doing whatever he's doing. My boy likes to call him. So I'll call, say the court mailed something, are you seeing someone, what do you want to do? I'm tired of limbo, it's either A. divorce or B. show some serious effort here and that doesn't mean showing up to see the kid half a day and leaving either. It means books, counseling and change.

4. I'm going to think about what you said. If I changed would that be enough if he didn't change at all? Would I be able to handle the same marriage, with a child, feeling stuck, moving to another state (as that would be the terms as he's obviously not moving back here) and knowing that likely he's been running around the past few years doing nothing in particular to reconcile with me? Would I feel like a door mat? Would I feel loved and cherished? Would I feel like a second class citizen? Or would he actually respect me and treat me like a wife should be treated? How does he treat me on trips? Doesn't even address the issues, runs off, is nice to our child but barely acknowledges me? Really what do you think the answer is? Limbo isn't working, you are right, what do we have, nothing but a piece of paper. He said a month ago he's my husband and I told him flat out he's not, he hasn't been a part of my life in over two years, why would he even say he's my husband?

5. I like these thoughts - Notice that isn't exclusive. There's a time to look back. But a LOT of our improving can be done without staring at the past. A quick look, identify the areas where change is needed and then spend a season looking forward. Every so often you need to look back again. See, as you grow, when you look back, you will see more clearly the things that put you where you were. They may not be what you thought they were last time you looked back. So glancing back every now and then will help you to move forward in the right direction. Just don't stay looking back. Don't obsess on it.

6. Over thinking. Mort Fertel uses a phrase that I love: analysis paralysis. PS. I'm reading the book AGAIN Women Who Think Too Much. That's ME. I'm going to read it, highlight it, write ideas in my journal - over thinking, looking back, obsessing about the past rather then moving forward.

7. Women. I'll have to finish rereading this later. Gotta get an hour of work in before 5 pm. Procrastinated today as always. Went shopping, ate out (salad of course), drove around town, just bored with my life I guess. So bored I tried calling the ex asking what the heck he's up to, I'm so sick of limbo I could puke up the 200 calorie lunch. I don't think by the way you really have to "try" to diet, just go to the library and check out some diet/exercise books now and then to get ideas. If you really want to lose the weight and get in super shape, do a food/exercise journal. I've dumped 10-20 lbs at a time doing that - had a baby though so had to. Now I have to do it all over again. Exercise gives me a high though. I work at home so I'm going to work in sweats - I have a three week period coming up where I have to work on the computer a lot for my business - so I'll just take breaks throughout the day and will try to do 2 hours a day of exercise. That'll knock off what I need to quickly I hope. (Gotta analyze your ex's when I have time late at night)

Thanks for your ideas. I'm going to do some serious soul searching but can you answer this - should I flat out ask him and what should I say? Basically I'm talking an ULTIMATUM call, the final one. And this time I'm serious (doesn't appear that he believes me or is his denial so deep?)

Horsey,

Your reply "feels" emotionally charged to me. That's a good thing for motivating change, moving forward, making progress. I'm a firm believer that we shouldn't deny our feelings.

But emotional charge is probably not the right state for a "final call" as you put it. Perhaps sleep on it for a day or two. Not a procrastination at all. Just think through exactly what you want to say, do, ask, etc. Prepare yourself that you might not like his answer or might not get an answer at all. Or you might get the answer you think you want and then realize it isn't really what you wanted.

I'll reply in detail later tonight, but for now, I would say just meditate on it for a bit. Resolve to move forward and know that meditation and preparation are not procrastination. They are exactly that, preparation.

I have a fair bit of thoughts on this one, but want to answer your other post too so it may be late tonight. I'll probably write a few long responses.

Keep in mind, these are my thoughts and I'm no relationship expert whatsoever. Look at my track record. In some ways, I'm sitting in the same chair that your ex is. For what it's worth, you might want to bounce the ideas around with someone a bit more successful at relationships than myself. I love chatting with you and hope you are finding my struggles and ideas helpful, but they should be weighted against my track record and experience at the same time. I'm ration and very philosophical so I can see and know that my opinion may not be the most sound based on that. It doesn't make it wrong. It just means that it needs to stand to a much higher level of scrutiny.

I'll write in a lot more detail this evening. I'm about to leave work and will be on the road for at least a few hours. I have some errands to run and shopping to do.

You are right, I've always done the emotional charged thing... I did call him, asked what he wanted to do about the divorce on file that'll be cancilled in two weeks. He said he wanted to just let it go and reconcile. He said that he wasn't seeing anyone, he was just playing cards with his buddy, he used to live in that town so it makes sense I guess. Truth is he's likely too busy for an affair all he's been doing. He promised that if I wanted to refile I wouldn't have to 'serve' him again, that's what I did last time as he didn't want to sign papers. I said I'd think about it but I'm tired of this and there's no reason to continue the way this is. I'm tired. That's all. Really it was unemotional, logical for once in my life - maybe I've learned something. I used to flip out at him, emotionall charged and full of it. I think I come to conclusions, and did in the past too about him, he swears he never cheated on me while married and it might be true. I was just an emotional wreck over some stuff. And the Women Who Think Too Much book is ME, it talks about a wife that would do this - stew and stew, make up ideas about her husband, would blow up, you know... I've got to cut this out whatever it takes as it DOES NOT WORK.

Oh I think you are a relationship expert. One doesn't get wisdom from the easy life as they say. You've been through ****** a few times over. Makes you know more then the rest of us actually - so long as you've learned from mistakes. Actually you've made me think more about my ex, third marriage thing, from his point of view. I'm not good at putting myself in someone else's shoes. I get too into my own world, that's my problem. Lately I've been forcing myself to get out more, chat with strangers, exercise, you name it... being positive helps. Trying to get myself out of this negative rut. The Secret is to cut out the obsessive looking back - and moving on. Following one's intuition and praying for peace. Trusting God.

Now I need to make a decision, if even the idea of reconciling - to give it another shot I guess. As Dr. Phil says one should turn over every rock before ending a marriage... someone on a Secret board that I found said there's some sort of metaphysical test that you do. You meditate and picture the person in front of you. You remain calm, still and in a total mediational state of mind. You stop "thinking" and you just "feel." Anyways some phd woman emailed me and said to do this, then feel myself either moving towards my ex or away from him. So I did it and I moved very slightly towards him. Not away. Now six months or even a year ago I would have moved away. She said that's all it would take is a slight moving towards him to tell me that my feelings are better then worse right now. She thought I should give this some time, saying it was about ME and not him anyways. That it wouldn't matter if he's changed or not if I really have. As I would be able to be in a different state of mind then before. I wonder about this metaphysical movement whatever it is - why this Secret book is a nationwide best seller - even the stars like Nicole Kidman are using it to work through hard times (for example the nimwit country singer she married). And it appears to work - maybe you are right, "just do it" and don't question why it works. Just train the brain to cut out the negative thinking and focus on only the best results.

I ended up taking most the day off. This self employment thing is hard - I can't seem to focus on my work these days - and I have 30k in receivables that I haven't finished from a month ago. Maybe it's just another sign, I was always obsessed with this business and lately I just don't care much about it. Might need to do a career change or something different - perhaps I can picture living in his small town with a very simple life. I've lived in small towns before and I sort of enjoy it. Knowing people. I could bring my horse, still work at home, travel here and there and just kick back a bit. I've always been so independent, I didn't even want a joint checking account with him - actually a shrink recently told me that I've been rebelling - partly because of a conservative Christian upbringing - but the problem with rebelling is one doesn't even know what they are rebelling against, they are just rebelling. She might be right about this. That I'm going to have to discover more about myself at an older age then most. Likely it is having the Bible hammered into me, I didn't even really want to be a wife, I didn't marry until 32. I was a terrible wife too, unsupportive in many ways. Just proving I suppose that I didn't need him that much. I don't know. Lately I've been thinking of stuff he put up with, he'd complain and likely he was right about lots of his complaints. Heck, look at me I'm actually willing to look at the other side for once. I've been stuck in blame and anger and unforgiveness mode a long time.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Wow...

You've done a lot of thinking. I was coming here to post, but I think I'm going to give you an assignment of sorts, if you are willing and not offended by the suggestion.

Try your best to spend a day, a full 24 hours not thinking about your relationship at all. Don't think about whether you will move forward with your divorce or work things out. Don't think about whether you were to blame or he was or both of you. Don't even think about whether you've changed or if he's changed of if everything is just the same. You're not even going to think about the two of you happily together or happily divorced.

I only want you to think about where YOU want to be. And this isn't about where YOU want to be in the relationship with him. Picture your life. What do you want your son to have? Where do you see your business? Small town or large? Etc. Now, I know some of those dreams may include a partner, father for your child, etc., but for this assignment, that's off topic. Only YOU and your life. 24 hours of looking forward.

No mysteries of the universe to solve. No puzzles of your past to unlock. No e-mails of your ex to interpret. Just you.

And this isn't about being selfish. In a marriage, you have to move from Me to We (another of Mort Fertel's favorite phrases), but YOU need a self awakening right now. Not that you aren't making it on your own, but are YOU really making it YOURSELF. We sometimes think we are making it if we pay the bills and make ends meet but to tell you the truth we are as dead as can be emotionally and spiritually.

I bet you come back feeling better.

Let me know when you're done and I'll go back and respond to the other post and this one <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I hope the suggestion doesn't bother you or offend you, but I assure you, regardless of the why, a forward focus and a break for the analysis will invigorate you and revitalize you and will let you get back on track in your business and give you the strength you need to start climbing out of your rut.

I have to admit, that since my reply yesterday, I did very little of the off limit things I'm suggesting for you today. And I feel great. I burried myself in work. I spoke to several loan officers. I had a conversation with my attorney (nothing to do with divorce). I looked at another house and worked with my real estate agent. I even made some plans for my business. I went see an old friend. I dreamed which I haven't done in a long time (not dreaming while I'm sleeping, I pictured myself in a new house, I pictured myself self-employed again, I picture myself even more successful at work, I pictured more time with my kids).

Today was wonderful and I feel so much better than I did the day before. I didn't set out to do this, it just sort of happened. But if you are receptive to it, I'll give that to you as an assignment <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think that's a wonderful assignment. I need to focus on my work, I am far behind. I'm tired of thinking quite frankly, trying to interpret what he does, what he says - obviously I'm an over thinker and we can't put ourselves in someone else's head. Look at how you tried to analyze what he's doing, it was already up to 4-5 different ways.

I'm not going to worry about him, divorce or reconciliation. Tonight I'll relax and will try to visualize more about the future. My boy is only 3, I can't even picture him in school, I can't imagine my own house even right now. I think you are right I need some sort of self awakening. Maybe I need a vacation to myself for a week early this summer, without my boy. I used to love to travel, to crazy places, alone. Even Jesus went up to the mountains to take a break by himself.

I don't know if visualizing my future will make me feel better or sad. Of course we all thought we'd be married and happy in our 30s. This isn't the life I signed up for. But it's going to be ok, I can come to a peace that whatever happens it'll all work out.

I'm glad you are doing better, you were so depressed. That you are getting out of yourself and moving forward. Being social is a sign you are moving out of your depression. I've been doing that too - looking around, and wow, there's a whole world out there. I'm going to do the same - start picturing myself as healthy and happy rather then moping around - my big step is journaling weight loss and exercise. I've lost a few pounds in the past week. I was always tall and thin but this winter, ugh. I picture myself thin again, healthy, wearing fashionable clothes again... at least I'll feel like me again, as shallow as that is, it's a forward step.

Thanks and have a great day (when we aren't in forward mode I'll analyze what you said about your ex's and your past)

Lol, listen to me, I sound so new age. To be honest, I'm really not.

I'm very spiritual, but in the fairly traditional confines of Christianity. Of course, I have always called myself radically conservative. I tend to hold conservative views, but I have always been very open minded, I'm a thinker, a philosopher at heart and so I often come to the conservative view point but for different reasons.

I'm by no means a conformist and so I'm often rejected by the traditional Christian circles and conservative groups as well because my ideas are too progressive. I don't fear change. We should question what we are told to believe, whether it's new or traditional. I suppose that's too taboo for most conservatives and traditionals.

Just reject it if it's different and how dare you question the way it's always been. I don't care if you agree with the end result. And I never understood why that camp has such a hard time agreeing to disagree. It's so hardcore believe what I believe or you are satan incarnate. But that's a debate I could write threads on and don't have the energy or motivation to do so at the moment (nor do I believe anyone would enjoy reading). Not sure why I even got on that kick except that I re-read my assignment to you and realized that I sounded very new age <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm enjoying my forward look at the moment.

Anyway, good luck on your journey and your forward focus. I have no doubt it will do you some good.

Yes this was a very new age assignment. Actually that's why I like you so much, you are sort of like me - contradictory in many ways, but really it's not. I tend to be way too open minded for your average "church folk." But we all find God in our own way I believe. I just have to modify things a bit - or mix and match ideas. I've always been really open to Buddhist thought, partly because I traveled throughout Asia when I was just 20 years old, I saw how those in third world countries were so happy, living for the moment... they have such a simple, peaceful life that we miss out on in some ways here in the West - although yoga and this new thought has become so popular these days. I've always thought the number of churches and the divisions are absurd. Fights over petty things that cause half of congregations to leave, it's happened at two churches I've been to in recent years. I just stay out of it. Sit in the back and listen. Wish I could find a more intellectual church actually, but not new age or unity or any of that, maybe just a more progressive preacher.

Today I didn't "make it" doing what you said. I can't believe though how much of my day is consumed with thinking about this marriage, that was the lesson partly. I don't know why this is destroying me, it has been for years. Actually since I met him it's been 10 years. Relationships if this hard are called codependent. And codependent people do need to do what you say, stop thinking and obsessing about the other person, and worry about themselves. Take care of themselves. Heal themselves. What else would I obsess about if it wasn't this screwed up marriage (and you are right it really only exists on paper at this point it appears)? Likely I need to go get my master's degree, take up a new hobby, join some clubs, start a new business, something to consume me... I live in a town of 100k so there aren't all of the opportunities as in a city, but there's one 45 minutes from here and I'm seriously thinking about moving. Just for larger churches, more groups, more things to do, colleges.. this is a quiet town and it's easy to not have much of a life here. So at least I'll be considering that as a part of my "new age" awakening - where I want to live...

What's forward for you?

PS We made it to page 7.

*Sigh*...

I started writing a reply, but I realized I was on a philosophical soap box and not sure I really want to open that can of worms in a marriage forum. I rewrote it about 4 times and finally decided this isn't the place for it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> It was quite lengthly, but I decided against posting it. I will respond in brief here.

Horsey,

I appreciate that you view me as open minded. My belief set is probably not as mix and match as yours. It's just very refined and it's very non traditional. I am a thinker and a philosopher at heart.

That means I question everything. I question those things which I already believe and accept to be true. I question those things which I have already rejected and believe to be false. And I question those things which I believe are unknown. And it is only through a continual evaluation that I can truly define just what it is that I believe.

That means that I don't fear other view points and beliefs. In fact quite the opposite. I am intrigued by them. I want to know more about them. I want to understand them. I question them as well. How can I reject a thought merely because it differs from something I already believe unless I have sought to understand that thought? How can I accept a thought merely because it seems to line up with something I already believe?

So only by searching and questioning do I truly discover. I would almost use the word enlightment here but that implies things by connotation that I don't want to imply here.

I don't look to assimilate other belief sets into my own. I just want to find the truth but how we see anything if we close our eyes? And in opening our eyes and looking for the truth, sometimes we have to accept that the truth may not be exactly what we've been told it was (what traditional Christianity says is true). What is really ashamed is how many people don't truly understand their own belief sets.

Anyway, so that aside, I didn't do much forward thinking today but that was not so much because of a failure on my part. Work was so absolutely busy for me today, I simply didn't have a lot of time on my hand to do any thinking at all.

I'm home now and when I got home I had an e-mail from the care pastor that has been counseling me. I'm a little concerned over a question he posed. Perhaps I'm just being paranoid, but I'm uneasy about the motive behind it. But I don't want to get into that now. I've been doing so good. I think I'm going to spend a bit reading and may pass through here again later.

If you want to get into any of the philosophical debate, feel free to e-mail me. I'm just not sure the marriage board is the most appropriate place for that (or not sure I want to open that can of worms here)...

When I pass back through later tonight, I'll respond to the next of your post(s) that was unanswered from before.

I'll pass through later tonight, having a crisis with my three year old.

Okay... Here's my next reply. This is to your post that begins with "I bought the Law of Attraction book too"

> You bought the Law of Attraction too

Wow, that's amazing. It's weird in some ways that we seem to cycle through the same thoughts and problems, etc. Perhaps in some odd way that's the law of attraction at work in and of itself. Who knows.

Our situations do share a lot in common. Not so much in detail but in our particular views, our views on life, the way we are handling it, etc. Even now when you're sort of stuck in a rut and I'm moving forward. I'd remind you that recently you were looking forward and I was stuck in a rut.

I would almost describe it as complimentary. It's like both of us know in many ways what we need to do. But neither one of us really want to give up hope or do it. But because we aren't going through the exact same struggle at the exact same time, you've been more helpful to me at some points than you'll probably ever realize and I'm sensing that in at least some ways you've gotten the same from me.

Anyway, just an observation and in some ways its interesting to observe this when thinking about the law of attraction.

> You asked for ideas on the court thing

I'm not real sure I'm clear on what's going on. I have a real good understanding as to legal matters in Louisiana but I'm in no way qualified to render legal advice. Even within my understanding, from another state, things could be very different. Disclaimer aside, let me give you my gut instinct on this and take it for what it's worth, it's just my instinct and opinion and certainly not advice in any way shape or form.

Louisiana, for example, has a law that says if you file a divorce, if it is not completed within say 2 years (I think that's the limit), it is subject to dismissal.

Once the time limit has passed, you would be given an opportunity to show good reason why it should not be dismissed. But generally speaking, there really isn't any good reason. At least not in the situation you've been describing. See, in Louisiana, Hurricane Katrina displaced people and left court houses shut down for months at a time. That might be good reason. It wouldn't be just because you don't want it to be dismissed.

Now, in other states, it is possible that other reason could be given and considered good. It's possible that your ex could waive a right and choose to keep it open despite the time limit. Or its possible it's already too late and there's really nothing you could do and that the process to "show cause" is just a formality they must go through to dismiss it.

Really, all I can do is speculate. Only a competent attorney in your state could answer that question well for you (I know, you're tired of hearing that, but remember as a future attorney I have to be careful that I'm not even close to rendering legal advice at this point, it's clearly illegal for me to do in my state and even if it weren't, I'm no where near qualified to do so).

Keep in mind there are other legal issues to consider as well. If the case gets dismissed, this could have an impact on property to be divided. Having to start over also means the community division gets reset to current assets. If he's been saving more retirement money, paying down on a house, etc. that could benefit you. If he's been spending, disposing of assets, building up debts, that could mean less for you. And given there's been moves, there could be potential for some jurisdictional disputes over which state the property division happens in. Again, only an attorney could really advise you on this.

> On the child support

I'm not sure how your state works, but you should be able to get child support now and in the full amount regardless of the divorce progressing or not. And this one, you should be able to get free assistance if you don't have an attorney to pursue it. I don't know what your situation there is (whether you are getting any or not), but if you aren't or you don't think you are getting a fair amount, get help on it and do it now. It's for your son. It's not about you and what you want. It's designed to give your son a reasonable lifestyle. Don't let yourself feel guilty over it and don't let him make you feel guilty. It's for your son (just keep saying that over and over again).

> your mom's advice

Normally I would say she's probably right, but I know what it's like to be heartbroken. I don't want my divorce, even today. If there's any chance you can be happy with him, explore that, but I would encourage you to move forward and explore it and decide it once and for all.

> you alude to his benefit of dragging this on

I can only speculate, see my prior response

> you mentioned the age difference and his inability to change

That may be the norm, but I'm not a conformist. I believe anyone can change. I believe everyone can change. But I believe change has to come from within him. You cannot change him nor can you motivate him to change. You can't talk him into it or give him an ultimatum to get it to happen. You can support it, but you can't coerce it. If you attempt to, no matter how subtle, direct, manipulative or otherwise, you may get a promise or even an action that suggests change but you will likely get no real result that lasts any length of time.

People only change when they are ready to change. They will only change when they themselves believe they need to change. They will only change when they believe it is their idea to change. That's why we are looking to change. We don't like our circumstances. we don't like our situations. We want to change. We believe change would help us. It is our idea to change to improve things.

Think back in your marriage, in the height of your problems. If your ex had looked at you and said "look how you are treating me, you are ruining our marriage, you need to change" what do you honestly think you would have said? Now I'm not suggesting the problems were all yours. Far from it. It takes two to tango <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. But the question is important.

So the only change that you can affect is change within yourself. That brings me back to my question. If the only thing that has changed is you, could you be happy in your marriage. Be aware, that your attitude and opinion and behavior towards your ex most certainly will impact his behavior and how he treats you. In fact it will probably make more of a difference then you or I would ever care to admit. But by itself, if you are the only person who admitted any fault and made any changes at all, could you be happy back in that marriage?

See, my belief here is very profound and this may be very unpopular. I'm going to speak freely what I believe at the risk of offending you (and I hope I don't). Before I say this, I want to be clear that I do not for a second believe your marriage problems were only your fault. BUT... If only you changed and you were positive and supportive and said kind things and never critical and always loving and affectionate, I think you would wake up and realize you were married to a stranger who was probably a lot more like the husband you wanted than the one you ended up with (within the marriage I mean). That doesn't mean his behavior and treatment of you was okay and that doesn't mean it was your fault or justified. But I do believe sincerely that is true.

But that's not the most profound part of this and that's not what I worry might offend someone. Here goes the real problem. Let's say you master your thought and you also believe what I said is true. Let's say you resolve to go back and be all of those things. Human nature does not allow us to truly forget our past. Even if you went back and began doing those things, you would likely be unhappy. You would resent that you were the only one changing. Even if the stranger you found yourself married to was a dream of a husband, we as humans with our own ego's would poison it and be miserable and resent our mate. I mean we would reason that it wasn't fair that we had to be so nice and affection and we had to go through so much effort and change for their sorry butts just to have a good marriage. We would ruin a great thing.

That's just my opinion and it may be unpopular. And maybe I'm naive or too negative on it. Maybe this is how I would react or how I think my wife would react to me and this wouldn't be you at all. I'm just sharing what I think.

> you mention my exes again

I would refer back to my prior reply. I would be interested in your thoughts once you've had the chance to go through them.

> you said you weren't sure if we had made any progress in 6 pages though

How are you measuring progress?

If you are measuring progress by reconciling with your husband, then your measure is skewed. That's because you have no true control over that situation. Sure, you could offer to go back to him tomorrow, but we both know it isn't that easy.

If you are measuring progress by completing your divorce, is that a noble goal. It may ultimately be what you need to do, but even if that's what you have to do, I don't know that I would call it a success. I do think you need to go on a journey to make a decision and begin moving towards that decision. That journey doesn't have to happen in a minute or a day or even a week perhaps but I think you need to get a vision or a plan and get on that plan and start moving. Whatever direction that is, I think movement is essential.

If you are measuring progress by emotional healing, I'm not sure that is a fair measure either. I think you can measure it only by emotional growth, not by healing. Don't ever let yourself stop feeling. That's what makes us human. And the minute we are no longer compassionate or we no longer want what is best for our kids or we no longer desire companionship or we no longer care where we end up tomorrow is the day we cease to be human. That doesn't mean that we have to dwell in our pain. Let your pain circumcise you. Let your pain work out your faults and get rid of those things that are broken in your life. And let it be your motivation to improve yourself and grow.

I hope I haven't gone too wacko on you in my thoughts. I fear I'm sounding more new age again and to be honest my thoughts couldn't be further from that. They are spiritual in nature. Take them for what they are worth.

...

I'm going to rest it here for a bit. I think there were a few more things since then (in your post from today) that I haven't responded to. I will probably delay a little on those. I'd certainly be happy to hear your thoughts on my exes and also on some of what I've said.

Hang in there. I do believe it gets better. In a few weeks, you'll probably be the one trying to pull me out of a rut again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks I'll have to process this later, my boy is sick and I think I'm getting it too... what is the measure of progress, you are right. Even a shrink told me I might take 3x as long to get through this as others and that's ok. This is my way of handling it, analyzing things and reading books. In my own way I've progressed and I'm sure you have too. Take care

Sorry to hear the little one is sick. I always feel bad when my kids are sick. I hate it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Actually I don't think in my case I'd have waken up with a "stranger" if I had done whatever it took to be a loving wife. I was on this board actually for years in my marriage, this isn't new. With the type of man I married it didn't seem to matter what I did it was always wrong. He was very critical - and yes he'd been married twice before me, plus a live in - so if you count that I was number four, not number three wife. Obviously the issues weren't just about me. I realize I have my problems but someone who tends to be abusive doesn't really want a happy, healthy wife - they want to bring someone down to their level of unhappiness. If I was healthy, he wouldn't take it, he'd do what ever to criticize and hurt me, even in small ways. This wasn't a "normal" guy that I was married to. So the answer is NO, if I was the only person that changed could I handle this man - would be be different because I was more positive, loving, etc? Actually if I was stronger, healthier and older/wiser - as I think I am having been gone 2-1/2 years - I would be less apt to put up with abuse, verbal or otherwise. I've gained self esteem and self worth, I've been away from him too long. If he even "started" the usual garbage, trying to diminish me in front of my son I'd be gone in a heart beat. He's proven to be very untrustworthy, and yes I could if I had to live with a man I didn't trust - someone who had a track record of lying and cheating. I could pretend to be "happy" and at times I've considered that route. I could realize that even when he's hammering on me (and god forbid my boy), nitpicking as he does, that it's not about me, it's him. I could "take it" and go in the other room practicing yoga. I could be isolated with a jerk like this. So I guess what I'm saying at 1 am when I'm tired working late is - NO, NO, NO. I couldn't go back and be happy if I was the only one who had changed. This man has left a path of destruction behind him in every relationship - and very, very much unlike you, he's not even tried to figure out what he's been doing wrong his entire life to disrupt so many lives, to cause such hurt. I don't even think he has a clue or cares how much he hurt me. Certainly the so called aplogies have been shallow. It's not just about ME as these new thought books and people might say - all sounds good in theory - one could be happy and get along with anyone if one so chooses... blah, blah, blah. But I have a little boy here, and my boy is more important then ME. I won't allow my boy to be raised with abuse or to watch his mother be stomped on. Yes I'd like to magically move back into a nice home, I had a 600k house for a number of years here - now I live in a cheap rental - but I have more then money, I have my pride and self worth. Unless this man was truly remorseful and apologetic, and if he quit drinking and lying, then there's no marriage. No marriage AT ALL. And my boy doesn't need to have any memories of mom and dad together. I left when he was 8 months old to spare him of such details. He only knows what is now - his "hollywood dad" showing up, buying toys, always having a new car, always full of charm - he doesn't know that he's only here half of the weekend and who knows what the other half - but whatever it is it's likely no good. My boy does not need a father figure like THAT in his house, or even in the same state. His dad was quite smart about this, to leave the state, to blow through town now and then not even "talking" to me about anything real - and what he emailed his ex girlfriend (the email I cracked) is likely the answer, that he's hiding out in another state so he doesn't have to address the issues - and that he'll have to find a "new family..." well, he always has, replaced one wife and girlfriend for another when times got tough and when they saw through his "charm." Truth is I have changed in the past few years - I'm "semi" back to "myself..." And I'm not giving that up for some man who appears to be what so many men are these days - they are a dime a dozen these losers who don't respect women, or children, or the sanctity of marriage. Sorry i'm beat, boy is crying, good night.