Wow...

So it sounds in some ways that you already know the answer. So what do you think keeps you from moving forward?

I hope you realize that I don't subscribe entirely to the ME theory. My thoughts are not EVERY that a woman should stay and be abused. My questions and comments about would it work with YOU were the only one that changed is because I know that you can't change others and others won't change until they are ready to change. And of course that's not necessarily an original idea that I have. Many authors write exensively on this. The question is designed to provoke thought only because it's a given that you cannot change him and he will not change until he realizes there is a problem and he wants to change. That was the purpose of those questions.

But it sounds like you really do know the answer.

So what do you think it is that holds you back from finalizing this thing? As I've said before and you've acknowledged, there is no marriage and hasn't been. You might be wife and husband on paper, but it really does end there.

Get some rest. Love on your boy. When you get some time, I'd enjoy thoughts on my situation with my ex's.

I'll read your posts on your ex's this weekend - I'm behind on my work, was up late. Do you have anything else to post about them. Some of these counseling books make one do a complete relationship history, as a means of figuring out the thoughts, patterns and choices that are repetitive. I suppose with me it's choosing emotionally unavailable men, I guess the "bad guys" that look like good guys... perhaps it's a self esteem issue, maybe that I grew up with three brothers that used to trash me growing up, I don't know and actually divorced I don't think I'll ever remarry. You asked how I picture my future and that's it, my boy and I in a small artsy house, church, friends, travel, clubs, fun, but no husband. I was 32 when I married, felt like it was "time" and really some people are meant to be single, I was a happy, independent single, traveled the world, ran a company and mostly enjoyed life. It's men that complicated my life, and look what happened to mine... not a result I'd like to repeat.

So maybe you could do your own exercise here before I analyze. Where do YOU wnat to be in the future, what job, relationship, house, etc. If it were a project from the Secret they'd have you do a bulletin board with pictures of what represents your dreams - actually I thought of that this morning. I'm in a small rental house - strange neighbors - I don't know why I'm "here" in the town, there has to be some reason to it. I sort of like the town, but was running from the town my ex and I had lived, memories and a bad attorney, and more. I'm starting to feel more "at home" after a year, but really goal setting - or whatever the Secret might call it - is a very good thing to do. I do it with my business, but not personal life as much. Perhaps because I've focused too much in a decade or more on my work, and not me. Now I think it is time to discover "me' without my business, I'm not even doing business in this town, half on purpose. I used to feel that "me" and my success were the same. I lived a narrow life, didn't go to church, didn't make non-business related friends much, didn't do hobbies, and I suppose didn't take care of myself as well as I could have. There are "consequences" to all of our life choices. Where we are today is a result of our past so we have to look back to look forward I think.

At least my boy is well. Last night at about 9 pm he "snapped out of it." Wasn't eating for three days, had a fever, was tired, he slept half the day. But at night he was hungry and just pigged out. Was sort of funny watching him stuff his face.

LOL,

I'm glad to hear that he is feeling better. I always hated watching one of my kids suffer.

See, my picture is a nice house in the country or maybe a really small town. Yard where we can sit on the porch in the afternoon and watch the kids play or where I can grill for friends who happen to pass by. It would be close enough to a medium sized city where I could shop and enjoy coffee houses, university, library, super sized bookstores, shopping, movies, parks, insane traffic (oops, maybe not enjoy), thriving legal community, sizable church. I would have a study with books and real comfortable chairs and a selection of music for whatever mood I'm in (maybe a fire place too).

I would spend the afternoons helping the kids get through their home and learning to debate the meaning of life (my kids already do that at 10, 9 and 8 ... most people are amazed at what they will talk about and how deep their discussions get). I envision the evenings with a wife, watching tv or sitting together reading or just talking, whatever, just being together.

Saturdays are the fun days for the kids. Time to take them to the park, to the movies, to the arcade, to their friends house, swimming or something. Sundays are family day. Church. Lunch together. Time with the grandparents perhaps or other family.

In business, I would be self employed on the Internet with 2 to 4 hours of work/effort per day (much like I was before). This would leave me the time to pursue my interests such as private pilot license training, sky diving, photography, etc. This is of course while I'm in school.

Once I finish Law School, I see myself with a small town law practice where I handle everyone's case for whatever they can afford to pay. It doesn't matter if I actually make a profit or not because I have the Internet business to support me. I get to practice law because that's what I like to do and I get to feel good about it.

At church, I see myself active in volunteer activities, financially able to give of my time and money, perhaps teaching classes on handling finances and saving to young couples and also to those deep in debt.

I guess that is in part why I struggle so much with the demise of this marriage. My first marriage and second one never had the closeness that I experienced with this wife. I couldn't have been happier, even in the midst of problems in this marriage. We could just sit there and hold each other and enjoy each other's company. The home life I described is largley what I had. The other stuff was stuff I dreamed of and wanted to pursue and was working determinately towards.

I know some of those goals sound lofty and far fetched, but I have a close business associate, in fact he was my #2 when I was self employed and very successful and he's convinced I will make him very successful. He's seen me go from broke and homeless to very comfortable lifestyle on ideas alone. He's seen my drive and determination. He's seen how I can accomplish in a year what others dream of doing an entire lifetime (when I'm motivated to).

*sigh*. But all of the other stuff seems so empty and meaningless without the family. I place a lot of value on the companionship, relationship and family. That's my real fault I suppose. I'm not egotistical or full of myself, but I can get my law degree and be successfully employed with minimal effort. It's not even a challenge, I just have to put in the work and effort. But it seems so pointless if I don't have someone to share it with.

That's my real undoing. And I suppose that's what I need to work on <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

So you are working on your bachelor's now while working? You have a lot of goals it's amazing, seem to have your wishes outlined. Do you want more kids? At your age to be divorced three times with three kids and to have your future ahead of you. It's like you are living several lives or something. I'm self employed and I work about 2-4 hours a day, more two weeks every other month. It took some years to build my business to that so now I'm thinking of going back to school myself to get a second career - guess I'm just half bored I've done this so long. There's a new book out that's on the top seller list you'll have to get since you like to read - The Four Hour Week. How to make money working few hours. I skimmed it today at the bookstore and likely I won't buy it, I'll just drink coffee and finish skimming, but it has some good ideas in it. I used to work 60 hour weeks in my younger years, now I'm trying to figure out how to work less, make more and do other things.

I don't think your goals sound lofty or far fetched but I'm used to dealing with business people. It does go back to the Secret, there's opportunities out there but you have to "think" self employed rathen then think like an employee. I'm to the point where I'm unemployable almost, I can make more working for myself in an hour then a week for someone else. I'm just not as motivated as I used to be. Perhaps I realize that part of the messed up marriage I had was my being a workaholic, I wasn't that interested in the domestic life. But children change everything, my boy has grounded me and it's a good thing.

My boy became sicker today. I think it's strept throat now, should have taken him to a doctor. He got a rash tonight and my mom said that, I feel stupid I just thought he'd get over it. So to the doctor's clinic we go tomorrow. Poor little guy, it is sad to watch a kid suffer. He's tough for a three year old, wouldn't even take cough medicine or anything to help him out, he's one cool kid. I don't make near the profit I used to make - because of him and being a single mom - but it's all for the best, he's what I'm most proud of in my life. You don't chat much about your kids, why is that?

Horsey,

Yes, I'm working on my bachelor's while I work full time. That's one thing I love about my job. There are very few places where I can have the benefits and professional opportunities and position that I have and work non traditional hours. Don't get me wrong, I'm not in upper management and not making a huge salary, but it's definitely a living wage. The alternates for me to be able to go to school are positions like retail management (ugh), etc.

My goals are pretty well defined because I've lived enough and experienced life enough to know exactly what I want. I've had most of the things listed there at one point in my life or another. Unfortunately, my divorces have had a tendency of tearing my "kingdoms" down, but I'm very determined and never give up.

On the kids question, I've married twice into families with step-children. I love kids. I even taught Sunday school at once. Most people can't relate to a guy who enjoys a classroom with 17 children from 8 - 10 years old in it. I'm one of those people that if you put me in a crowded room, I can sit and a chair and not say a word and in no time at all the kids have made their way to me and are hanging around me.

Do I want more? I always thought 3 was the magical number for my household. Although I love kids, I'm not one who wanted 10 of them if you know what I mean. But I had always wanted a little girl. I have all boys. In most areas I'm determined and never give up, but on that particular topic, I sort of resigned myself to the idea that I will never have a daugther. My second and third wife were not able to have any more children. I know that I am young enough that it is still not an unrealistic idea, but some reason I just don't have the confidence that it will ever happen.

The reference to living several lives or something is very accurate. When I was younger, I had people that called me a liar when I talked about all of my accomplishments and what I did and do. And I'd just start whipping out proof and leave people in shock. But it's a determination more than anything. I'm a person that sets my sights on something and doesn't stop trying until it happens. The fact that I'm in my 30's is no obstacle to becoming a lawyer, I just started going back to school and am well along the way now.

When I first became self employed, I worked 12 - 16 hours per day. I was really neglecting my first wife. I always had this belief that if you wanted something done right you had to do it yourself. It was only towards the end when the money got real good that I wanted to enjoy it I finally learned how to trust others and delegate. That's how I came to rely on my #2 <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. He turned out to be fantastic. He believes in me so much he offers to work for me for free on my current projects I'm dabbling in. I can't let him do that, I feel like I would be taking advantage of him. He believes in me and looks at it like it's his way of securing his spot once I am big enough to hire him. Of course he'll work for me again once I get to that point. In the mean time I've actually helped him a bit on some projects he's worked on.

But like you, the time thing came with age. Once I realized that I didn't have to work around the clock to be successful, I quickly learned to enjoy life. It was real hard for me to go back to a traditional job after my first divorce. I had become accustomed to a nice income with very low working hours. But my drive allowed me to do it. when I'm determined, nothing can get in my way.

But I guess the real sad thing and maybe the reason my wife ultimately gave me the boot is that when I'm full of motivation, I'm probably one of the fastest moving most determined people on earth. I can do more with nothing and in less time than you can imagine. But when I'm down, I can't make myself do simple things. My wife shut down on me emotionally and shut me out a few months into our marriage when we disagreed on money handling. Once I realized things were going downhill, nothing else mattered. I tried hard to reconnect with her. When I couldn't, I became depressed. All that drive and spunk disappeared. It did leave, it just was on hold for a bit. And as soon as I didn't have that drive and spark I started hearing the words "you used to be so ambitious" and that was ultimately the only reason I've ever been given out of her mouth for ending our marriage. What is it she was really after (I have to wonder now)? Yes, the ambition was a trait she liked about me, but do you just toss the marriage away when someone rests for a season and doesn't have the drive. Did she really think it was gone forever in such a short period of time? I've kicked the funk, at least temp (although I've dropped several notches in the last few days, trying to keep myself from going back to depression) and look at what I'm accomplishing in such a short period of time. I've only skimmed the surface here.

I don't talk about my kids much because I've become so guarded about them. I really blame myself for the pain they are going through right now. They were essentially abandoned by their real mother. I was way to fast to jump into my second marriage and they loved my second wife. I was very cautious on my third marriage. I waited a long time before I even introduced her to my children and before the children met each other. We talked in advance about how my kids had been abandoned and hurt. I was hesitant to even remarry. But that relationship seemed so different. And they became so attached. She was like the mother they never had. You know once she put me out she has never asked once how they are doing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

On mother's day, when the phone rang they jumped up and down and said "maybe it's Miss ..." referring to my third wife. I haven't said her name in several months in front of them. It shocked me and left me in tears. It ended up being their real mom. She talked to them for 3 minutes, promised to come visit them on the Wednesday following. Then we got a call Tuesday night from their grandmother saying their mother wouldn't make it for the visit. They haven't seen her (real mother) in 2 months.

So I've gotten to this point where I'm so guarded about them that I don't do like I used to. I used to brag on them and tell everyone about them. I couldn't wait to introduce them to my friends, coworkers, people I know, etc. I'm still just as proud of them, but I feel like I will hurt them if I keep introducing people into their lives that will just abandon them.

And that guardedness spills itself out into other interactions like these forums. Not that there's any possibility of my kids getting hurt here, but it's just become my norm I suppose. It's a truly sad situation <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I'm sorry to hear your little one is feeling bad again. I hope he gets better soon.

I used to be so motivated too. My business is half of what it should be really, it's the past few years and directly related to marriage/separation issues. I thought my ex liked me because I was successful then he tried to take it away from me, and blame me for working too much. Then when I had a baby, we moved, my dad was dying I had a hard time with my business for a time - then he would trash me saying I couldn't run a business, said I was doing "nothing" over and over again. I was so completely exhausted up day and night with a baby and flying to my home state ever 2-4 weeks to be with my dad who had horrible cancer. I can still picture how he criticized me. I'm the last person in the world to be lazy. I'm with you, what gets to me isn't working long hours - it's the mental and emotional exhaustion from dealing with personal issues. You'd think you'd get support from the one you are supposed to "love." I realize I need to be more balanced - do you do what I do - go in extremes? I hit spurts where I can do 2-3x what others can do then I sometimes crash. I think if we don't figure out how to heal from these bad experiences we can lose some of that spark and drive.

Lately I've been thinking about what I want for the future, I might even make one small step and take a class that starts next week. It might be that something different would do me good, having some new goals like a 2-3 year back to school stint. I used to be so in love with life, I traveled, loved business, made friends easy, do you know what happens and how to get "it" back. I realize life is hard but it can't be as hard as I've made it. Do you think we are more prone to spurts of depression because we think too much? Because our expectations are too high? Amazing I had the highest expections too on how life should be, had it all outlined, and here I am 39 years old saying "this isn't the life I signed up for..."

As for your ex maybe she was so caught up in her own issues, her own selfish world that she didn't realize how much you were hurting. Likely if you were hurting you struck out at her more then you meant to. Hurting people hurt others even if it's unintentional. I was on this site when my husband was fired from a job, we had to move right after I had a baby, I was tired, upset and he started drinking. People on this site said he was depressed but I was caught up in "me" and didn't try to understand really. I think we as women expect men to be strong - we as women are allowed to be emotional and have our little mini break downs but men aren't allowed. And today men sometimes think the same of women, that we are to raise kids, work, do it all and not have times of exhaustion and depression. Everyone is under so much pressure these days. That's where anger and stress management helps - exercise, meditation, yoga, walking, whatever.

I don't understand, your kids live with you? I need to go reread some of your posts... I am very protective of my boy, I don't want to date or meet anyone now but that might change. I think I'll have a gun at anyone's head that comes near him, likely I'd just hide him out unless it was something serious and not put him through that. Gotta go, sick boy calling.

Yes, my kids live with me, but during the week they spend most of their time with my parents. Being in school full time and working full time leaves them in my parents care for much of that time. Like right now while I'm on break from school and weekends, etc. I spend every minute I have with them.

Their mother was mad when we separated and she didn't get sole/domiciliary custody and in lashing out she essentially abandoned them totally. She sees them about 6 times a year and calls 2 or 3 times a month to talk to them. Her thing is she's mad about the custody arrangements so she takes it out on the kids. But they never were much of a priority in her life anyway, even before that.

You are a busy guy.

Wow... 8 pages...

How's your boy?

Hope you have a good holiday weekend.

My first ex called tonight out of the blue. This is after not speaking to me for a bit. She talked on for 15 minutes or so about something or other (I wasn't really listening, it was all about her) and then politely ended the conversation. She acted like nothing was wrong. I can't figure them out. I suppose she is after something again (pretty much the only time she starts calling me).

I may not be stopping by here as often. I'm kinda down again and don't want to dwell in my situation <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I feel the same, dwelling too much. Might need a break.

My ex called, wants me to go to a five day business convention in a beautiful place in two weeks. I'm half tempted. Just to see.

I'm confused.

Maybe space is a good thing.

My boy is better, he has a rash though, I think he's not quite well, I don't know what this is. It's been a week. MIght need to go to dr. tomorrow.

Hope you stay happy.

I am glad that I decided to read this, I am also the third wife of my ex-husband and we tried to rekindle the relationship and now I understand why I am having the difficulty that I am having now. Excess baggage that he has not gotten over. Thanks for helping me understand that you can not fix what has already been broken
FB

FB,

Sorry to hear of your difficulties.

Does he realize that he is broken and is he doing anything to try to fix it? I really think that's the clincher. Not that I'm even remotely close to fixed, but I am searching and seeking. Things can be fixed, but it will have to start with him and end with him. You can be supportive of that process, but you can't push him into it or do it for him.

Are you there? Just emailed you? Been a long time since I've been on this site...

I'm here. I haven't been to the site that often. I stop by and read about once a week but I don't post much anymore.

I'm thinking my divorce should about be final now. Because it's in another parish from where I live now and have lived most of my life, I hired a different attorney that I'm not familiar with so I wouldn't have to pay travel time, etc. Well, she (the attorney) doesn't forward anything to me. I could be divorced already and not even know it. I've pretty much been trying not to think about it.

How have you been?

Well, I got the date. In a few short weeks it'll all be over with. In some ways I'm glad. In other ways I'm hurting more than ever. Tis my fate I suppose.

It will be final tomorrow.

I don't plan on attending or making an appearance. There's no need for me to be there.

I think what is hardest is never having been given a reason for why this marriage ended. It was just suddenly ended, 10 months in.

Though I've probably over analyzed, in the end, I think I was a mark and she just wanted someone to pay the bills and take care of her kids. I was so blinded by love and so easily conned on this one. Not sure I'll ever do it again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Well, it's all over with. I have confirmation today that the divorce was granted on the 3rd as I believed it would be. I didn't attend as I noted on the 2nd that I wouldn't. I'm glad I didn't. My ex doesn't deserve the time of day or pleasure of my appearance <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

i am sorry for your pain. loss is always hard, even when it is expected.

my mother raised me right in one respect i have to say!
she raised me to never depend on a man (or anyone else)
now, what does that mean?
well, she raised me to always be able to take care of myself financially. not to depend on a man to take care of me financially because you just never know what will happen in a relationship or marriage. and if you can't provide for yourself you are in big trouble.

even now, after my marriage ending, money may be very tight for me but i am still providing. i am not counting on anyone else to do it for me. do i count on my child support, yes i do because he has to pay that. but i am even at the stage now where i don't want to have to even count on that. i want to be able to pay everything without counting on child support. that is my next goal.

i have a hard time with women who seek out men to just take care of them and their kids.

mlhb

TD,

Something about your posts gets to me. I'm not divorced, haven't walked in your shoes, and I back myself away from posting to you because of that.

Now I am...because that last line of your post said loudly to me, "Say something!!"

You based your choice to go and be present based on what another person may or may not think, feel or believe.

That's slavery. That is you not valuing your presence, your choices, living from your own intent and to your own code.

I think I want you to know real freedom...where you cannot be taken advantage of or used, ever again. So your life experience cannot continue to be what it has been.

That's just me wanting...and sharing my reactions. They're mine. And this is me, living up to my code of honesty and connection...consideration. Holding my fear of your possible pain from my post and respecting it's yours. And posting, anyway.

LA

LovingAnyway,

I'm not sure I understand your response, but I would like to if you're willing to share and expand a bit.

I truly loved my wife and was wholely committed to her and to our marriage. I would have given or sacrificed anything to make it work. I walk today so confused. I truly don't know what happened.

One day I think she is the sweetest most delicate thing I have ever known, the woman I fell in love with. The next day I think think she is the coldest and most conning and manipulative and decieving and uncaring and untrustworthy and hateful person I have ever known. I don't know which is the truth, I truly don't.

My response the other day was a remark of pain. I hate what I've gone through. I've been through it twice before and they just don't compare whatsoever. I have never been so serious and so committed and so totally devoted and so totally broken. I can't honestly tell you what I really feel or think about it.

But what could I have done by going to court? I can't object. The sad truth is I have no say in my ex wife's choice to divorce. I had no say in her choice to separate. I had no say in her choice to refuse to speak to me since. I had no say in her choice not to even give me a reason. I have had no say or options in any of this. I think to go would have only brought more pain.

And I can't know what her reasons are, I really can't.

But what I do know is this. No matter what happened between us, her kids truly loved me and I truly loved them as if they were my own. Let me tell you the scene when I went to pick up my stuff after the told me to leave. She had her kids next door at her parents house. I asked if I could just tell her children bye. I promised her I would not say a word other than bye to them. She said no. I fell to the ground crying. I barely had the strength to get up and walk away.

Then I had to go to a hotel room and face and start thinking about how I was going to explain to my own children how I was going to tell them that yet another "mom" in their lives was turning her back on them as well. They loved her too. They loved her children too. They talk about her and about her children to this day. I have tears rolling down my face right now thinking about my children's pain and about her children and the fact that I will likely never see them again and that she will not even give me the courtesy of telling me that they passed school or if they are ok. See for a long time I wrote letters and just begged her to tell me how the kids were doing. She has not so much as asked how my kids were.

And so I don't know the truth about what happened between us. I am too hurt to discern it right now. But what I know is that when an adult can so cold heartedly turn their back on other children they know loves them and doesn't even care about it, then I can confidently say that person doesn't even deserve my time to make an appearance in court.

If that's not what you meant, I do want to understand, I really do. I appreciate opinions including those that are critical of me and my choices and actions.

I know that I am in a state of pain and I know that breeds poor logic and choices and so I am interested.

And don't think for a moment that I don't wish there was some way that I could fight for my marriage. I pray every day. I pray for my ex wife still. I wish that I had faith and felt that there was hope, but I don't know that I can honestly say that I feel that way.

Everytime I felt progress was made, I get slapped in the face. I prayed for a Christian to be put in her path. A Christian was and she ended up saved. Do you know what happened next? That Christian a few days later stood in favor of divorce and encouraged me to not write letters and not seek reconciliation and told me that I should stop wanting to know how her children were doing (note I'm not calling her or harassing her or showing up, I would write a letter every so often asking how they were doing, send a card for Christmas, mother's day, etc.). In a confrontational meeting with that person, I asked what they believed the Biblical basis for divorce was in our case and she said it was to live in peace, since my wife was in peace without me that was Biblical grounds for divorce. Every time I get my hopes up, I get slapped. Every step forward gets returned with step after step backwards.

And I try to look forward. I know my pain is great and I am broken in many ways. I look for hope, I've just yet to find it. Thanks for taking the time to post and I hope you'll expand on what you've said because I didn't fully understand it.