MarriedForever – I’m going to assume your questions were sincere and respond to you, and to you only. The rest I am done responding to.

“With all due respect, why are you continuing to rub salt into the fresh wounds of the BS by CONTINUING ON WITH THIS THREAD???”

ahhh….now it’s the thread and not JJ that shouldn’t be here. After I told everyone that the thread was closed, achieving their objectives, was that sufficient for them? No, they continued posting their vindictives.

So let me simply say that I am posting this thread in order to respond to you and your questions. I did not create the thread you posted your questions on to you or to any of the others, nor is my advice always the same or applicable to EVERY person on MB, it is intended for their situation and their situation alone. If they don’t like the “subject matter of any thread” then “don’t read it anymore” would be my advice to anyone regarding any thread that they read once and found personally distasteful or offensive. If you look at the grand total of posts on that thread, very few of them were between JJ and me. Most of them were from the “watchdogs and arbiters” of the system, or at least the ones who felt that they should be the ones who get to determine who gets to post or what gets to be talked about.



“Jayban is here for support.... and unfortunately, especially for newbies, by the time they realize that they have stumbled upon a disgusting, BS back-stabbing thread,”

No, Jayban is on MB for support. Furthermore, he gets “support” on HIS threads. He gets information from other threads, books, MB articles, etc. I have, to my recollection, never posted TO Jayban. If he is “surfing the threads” and comes across ANY thread that is uncomfortable to him, my advice would be the same, “don’t read THAT thread or any other thread that you found causes you discomfort or pain” or does not seem “helpful” to his situation. Likewise, even if I vehemently disagreed with Jayban, or anyone else for that matter, I would stay off of their threads when I was not asked to be there or if I made the judgment that I would have little, if anything, to offer them and their situation.

That you find any attempt to help JJ to be a “disgusting, BS back-stabbing thread” IS your right. I am sorry if you feel that way, but I cannot control your feelings, nor would I want to try to. I do understand your feeling because I have felt the same sort of “disgust” over many threads and discussions in the past. What you perceive as a “BS back-stabbing” thread, however, is not true. It is a thread, more than anything else, about forgiveness for terrible sins and the rebuilding of lives IN CHRIST. I fully understand how an unbeliever could think of any support of any kind for a WS to be “back-stabbing,” because they view everything from the perspective of “me.” But that’s not how God views forgiveness of sin, not just some sin, but all sin.


“FH, you and I have disagreed on a number of things. I have still learned a lot from you and thought you had a lot of good things to say. Your stance on this thread is freaking me out.”

Okay, I don’t understand what you mean by “freaking me out,” and I’m sorry if you are feeling that way, but I suppose it could be because you are projecting your own situation into a situation that could turn out to be real for you. Your husband COULD wind up married to someone else and you don’t see how you could ever forgive him for that. Without Jesus Christ in your life, I could understand that. But we are NOT without Jesus Christ and we are NOT without the forgiveness of sins that God affords us THROUGH Jesus Christ, unless we don’t have Jesus as our Lord and Savior. Without Jesus Christ in your husband’s life, I wouldn’t expect you to forgive your husband anymore than God would forgive him without his first accepting Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. But forgiveness IS a command of God for believers TO believers who have repented of their sin.



“Let me put it this way, FH....

Let's say your wife decides, tomorrow, that she really is done with your M and runs off and marries OM.

Five years down the road, OM is here, asking for help because YOUR WIFE is cheating on HIM. Let's take it a step further and say that you had no idea it was HIM you were posting to. Would you really want to be giving advice to your wife's affair partner on how to save the sham of a marriage he is in with YOUR WIFE?????

Come on, FH...wake up. This is foggy thinking at it's worst.

Sorry if this is harsh, I have been losing sleep over this thread.”

Okay, MF let’s talk about the hypothetical scenario you want to use. But before doing so let me make one thing clear. I reject the premise of your scenario for two reasons. First, if a husband and wife are both believers and are both walking in humble obedience to God, that scenario can’t happen. It can only happen if one or both of the spouses are NOT walking with God and are walking in “self.” Second, I don’t approach the world or my advice here on MB from a secular worldview, I approach it from God’s worldview, or at least I try to, even if I personally find something to be “offensive” to me. MB's concepts are for saving marriages confronted by infidelity, irrespective of the origin of the marriage.


But, for the sake of argument, let’s assume your scenario happened.

IF, as you set the parameter for the scenario, I had no idea who the person was, and they presented themselves as a BS with a WS, then YES I would respond to him with advice. If he didn’t want to hear advice grounded in “obedience to God” then I would stop posting to him and let others try to provide assistance. Why? Because the “greater issue” is the status of their standing before the LORD, not their standing before the world, me, or the other members of MB and it is not my “job” to “convert” anyone. I stand for Christ, and it is up to all persons to decide for themselves to accept or reject Christ. But believer or not, I would attempt to offer at least initial help.

But let’s modify your scenario a bit and say that I knew he was married to my former wife. I would then advise him that both he and his wife, my former wife, needed to be reconciled to God first by accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Why? Because I am a Christian and I KNOW what is awaiting them, “saved marriage” or not, if they do not accept Christ. NO “penalty” that I could dream up could be worse. Furthermore, they would need to apologize to me and seek my forgiveness AFTER receiving God’s forgiveness. JJ and her husband have accepted Christ and have received God’s forgiveness, so let’s say that they were the couple you were attempting to portray in your scenario.

They would have apologized to me and sought my forgiveness for their former sin against me. I would have forgiven them. I would NOT demand that they divorce each other as some sort of “requirement” in order for me to forgive them. Why? Because God’s command to believers is NOT “qualified” by anything other than their being believers who are repentant of their former sin. THAT was, and is, Jesus’ explanation to Peter….. “not seven times, but seventy times seven times.” IF I found it to be too personally hard or painful to advise them, I would refer them to someone else who could give them solid Christian advice on a Christian marriage, not just tell them to “get lost you are not worthy of any help.” God hates all divorce. IF the BS in this scenario “can’t find enough forgiveness in their own heart to forgive their WS, then he would also have the right to a divorce and remarriage according to God’s teaching. Yes, it’s starting to “get messy,” but then ALL adultery is messy.

Now, let’s modify your scenario even further.

Suppose someone comes here seeking advice and they had divorced their first spouse for whatever reason other than their first spouse having committed adultery or spousal abuse. They had no ground for divorce other than personal desire to be free of their first spouse. They remarried, thereby committing adultery themselves according to Jesus’ teaching. Now they find themselves a BS and are seeking advice. Would you or any of the others who have posted on this thread offer advice to them or would you tell them that they are unworthy of any help because they are an affront to other members of MB?

Suppose someone comes here seeking advice who has been divorced multiple times, either because they committed adultery and were divorced by their BS, or because they wanted a divorce for “irreconcilable differences.” They have committed adultery several times, by remarrying, and NOW they find themselves to be a BS in their current marriage and come here seeking advice on how to “save this marriage.” Would you or any of the others who have posted on this thread offer advice to them or would you tell them that they are unworthy of any help because they are an affront to other members of MB? If the answer is “not help,” then what would the answer be if the person didn’t volunteer the information about their previous marriages?

“Come on, FH...wake up. This is foggy thinking at it's worst.”

Is it? This sort of scenario has happened here before and will most likely happen again in the future, given the adulterous nature of our society.


“And I keep praying for you, FH, that you snap out of it. I keep hoping that I will see some good signs that you are "getting" it ~ that you can truly EMPATHIZE (that is, really put yourself in the shoes of the BSs around here), and support THEM, the ones trying to save LEGITIMATE, God-sanctioned, God-ordained marriages. The ones suffering through the most intense pain ever, who are floundering around day and night, wondering when their lives will be put back together.”

MF, having been a BS, furthermore a BS in a “God-sanctioned, God-ordained” marriage, I DO sympathize AND empathize with the emotional feelings and impact of other BS’s. Having had a WS who WAS “married to her OM” in all ways other than a formal state sanctioned marriage ceremony, not only CAN I put myself “in the shoes of the BSs around here,” I AM one of the BS’s around here. What I don’t do is “identify” with their pain, making it my own pain and allowing my emotions to control my responses irrespective of God’s commands.

I thank you for your prayers, and if you do keep praying for me, pray that I always seek to be obedient to God’s commands and teaching first, with a forgiving heart as God has forgiven me of my sins. I need that if for no other reason than I am human and susceptible to human emotional responses too.

MF, did you get your questions answered or do you have any follow up questions you'd like to pose?

FH, Could I speak with you further about Forgiveness? How about we take it elsewhere like Oter Topics so as to not interfere here?

All blessings,
Jerry

^^bump^^

FH, are you out there?

Jerry - sure. You pick the place and let me know. It can be here, or if you prefer, you can email me at mbforeverhers@yahoo.com

Fh ~

To be honest with you, your response exhausts me. You are not going to convince me of your position, and I am not going to convince you of mine.

I am having a very hard time understanding WHAT forgiveness has to do with MY STANCE on JJ's thread, which is simply:

"Helping out a woman whose actions helped to rip apart two family's lives because the consequences of her BAD BEHAVIOR have come back to haunt her, is VERY PAINFUL for all the BSs here who are working hard to save their God-ordained, God-sanctioned marriages, while people like you support her, JUST HURTS".

It does, FH. And I am not the only one who is hurt by this.

You seem willing to hurt many of the BSs here by supporting someone who, in fact, could be *any* one of the BSs on this site OW, is just incredulous to me, and to many others.

Your stance is "freaking me out" because it is so absurd. That you cannot see this and keep defending yourself because you are HELPING AN UNREPENTANT ADULTERER, sure flies in the face of what this website is meant for.



I assume what you are saying, then, is that when your W had her A, she was not "walking in humble obedience to God". She "fell off the bandwagon", so to speak. She *was* "walking in humble obedience" before her A, and then she was not. Or maybe she was never a Christian in the first place, I really do not know.

If it happened once, WHY in the world would you assume that it could NOT happen again?

FH, I totally agree with you that if we ARE "walking in humble obedience with God", that this would never happen.

HOWEVER!!! It IS possible to reject that "humble obedience!!". It happens all the time! PEOPLE SIN EVERY SINGLE DAY. It's called FREE WILL. We have the choice to sin, or not to sin. Unfortunately, many times we choose sin over obedience to God. You cannot tell me that just because someone is walking in that humble obedience to God, that they will not be tempted and that they will not sin. THEY WILL!!! You and I sin every single day...when we "decide" not to walk in humble obedience to God. What your statement tells me is that you believe you and your W are "above" falling into sin, since you reject that the scenario regarding the possibility that your W could have another affair, as I presented, could ever happen.

Now, WHAT this has to do with JJ's thread, I do not know.



Well, I'm sorry, FH, but maybe you SHOULD try to identify more with some of the BSs here who YOU ARE HURTING by stabbing us in the back by helping out an unrepentant adulterer (and yes, she IS unrepentant ~ she is still married to SOMEONE ELSES'S HUSBAND!!! Remember, what God has joined, let NO MAN TEAR APART. She DID tear apart something that God had joined. If she was truly repentant she would LEAVE HIM, and let him and his TRUE WIFE attempt to reconcile. She would go back to her TRUE HUSBAND and attempt to reconcile with him. THAT is true repentance, FH. She is not even CLOSE to that. By trying to save this sham of a M that she is in, she is simply JUSTIFYING HER ACTIONS).

Ok, again, I say that I am not going to convince you of my stance, and you are not going to convince me of yours.

I am supposed to be in a very dark Plan B, and I have broken that over this situation because of how deeply it has affected me and other BSs here. Therefore, I will not be responding anymore to this thread. I am not saying that so that I can get the "last word in", you are free to respond to anything I say, however, I will not be responding in return.

Blessings,
~MF