-Rambling, venting....
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After d-day I felt tempted to just crash myself into the first wall with my car...

10 months later I had a car accident, a real one, I stopped driving since because I knew how all this hit's me sometimes... and I realized it was a matter of time for me to run out of control in any of those bad dark moments. I gave my car away.

Today I realized I don't need my own car... I can just cross the road in the right time.

I am not "threatening". to suicide... just where my thoughts are and how I feel...
I guess I got to a point where I lack any emotion and desire for anything at all...I am just really tired.

My WH just took so much of me, he killed who I was and who I used to be, since we met he's been taking me appart in every sense.
I gave up mine, we followed our dreams together, for 10 years...till denied d-day, 3 y ago when he just killed all our dreams and plans, with his infidelity.

No it's not a self pitty opera, just the facts... and the realization that he's not only to blame.

I let him do this to me, I let him destroy me and my kids... I did it because I am plain stupid and naif.
I am, I know I am... I believe too much in people and I am too patient, too understanding.
Lost a sister, BIL, best friend and "M" due to betrayal in the past year and a half... kind of hard to live with. All different stories and each as scary as the other. Infidelity being the hardest, doenst minimize the others all that much.

There's nothing left but pain... these last 3 years were just the destruction of everything I, we, ours kids, had. Financially, emocionaly... Last year has been really, really bad at all levels. It's like looking for the light not in one tunnel but in so many tunnels I don't really know wich one to follow first... then brain is so tired I can't even see the tunnels...

I still cant even find a glimpse of myself in all this mess... I look at my kids and can only feel the pain from all they are going thru... and will have to go thru forever (health, special needs, depressed parents cruel world...)

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This was me yesterday, never posted it, it is good sign right?

Not that I am feeling really much better today... just hard for me to give up I guess...

My (W)H obviously as problems with communication specially since d-day.

My issues? Since d-day WH "SAID" he was committed to M. Immediate NC with latest OW.

First weeks (months?) he had the most horrible WS fogged talks to justify his A's. (Never blamed me, but blamed kids, hurts so much more)
Then with Joseph's Letter a few more A's talks and new info.
Then he went into, "move on" "get over it" mode.
During all this time he never did what he promised or what we agreed concerning professional events, aquaitances, etc.

For him we have always been in recovery.
For me, limbo land, we eventually started Recovery on jan 2007, one year past d-day.

Then... same limbo status.

I felt like in severe depression and so hopeless a few weeks ago. Why? his lack of action I think. About everything.

He's not being transparent and says that passwords or whatever are not important since he's committed, and nothing happened this past year.
I have to trust him, anyway, he can always create or have any A without me knowing... so.. why insist in that stuff?
He learned his lesson, the consequences are catastrofic, he 'll just wont do it again, etc.

Big triggers that lead to suspicion, if asked gives me the same old answers as before, while having A's. Reacts with anger and tells me I'll never get over it. (like if I am a maniac/ suspicious paranoid) I am not, I am way too patient and way too "rational" and calm person.



THIS IS MY LAST CALL FOR ANY HOPE. Please give your answers and I'll MAIL them to WH.
Answer this to a WS, please.

Can someone please explain the importance of transparency/ radical honesty... and what does it means?
How can he be open and transparent?




And as a... reassurance back up plan...

Is there any use if I ask WH to install a KEYLOGGER it on his office computer?
And:
Print reports to show me?
Take me to office, on my request, to check it now and then?
The "reports" provided by keylogger can be manipulated by WH?
Can they be mailed to me?
Would it be of any use at all given the fact that he knows he has it?
Could I get any kind of credible info?

I know he is lazy enough to "forget" past some time, to delete something at some time or another.

So far I can't tell if he's a Serial cheater or not (could be, 3-5 OW in 2 Years, EA with all of the and PA with 3)...

He's actions for the past year can only, eventually show a hidden serial cheater. ( In the form of ... not lying but holding info? Defending his web "privacy" ?
Or, maybe not and he is "just" having trouble dealing with guilt. Lets say 50/50.
He's selfish, he's lazy, he has anger issues... and usually suffers from anxiety, stress, depression, frustration...

Yesterday was almost like d-day again... 3 months after d-day he made a business trip I did not agreed on. Met some W he didn't mention to me after return. (I found snooping thru his e-mail) Said was just a professional collegue (same answers as before reffering to OW/s) A 50+ W from a very well know company. Said he barelly talked to her, etc. On her mail yesterday she was confirming she will be at the same event, this year, in our country, and wanted to meet up for a coffee and for some partying (night bars, disco, etc.) I believe they havent been in touch since I found e-mail right after last year trip. But she surelly doesnt sound a bit like a 50+ professional collegue) Whatever this W is, he definetely not following what he promised.
He didn't even told me about this last mail. Can't tell if he replied or not. I doubt he will reply from his MAIN e-mail.

Please any input will mean so much.

Thanks, and sorry for the long post, specially with my bad english <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

LW,

You know the drill. Plan B. Are you ready for it?

He has lost your trust in him. It is his job to restore it or he will lose you. Let him know and then you must keep your word.

What do you think your timeline is for him to keep his word?

Do you know your personal and M boundaries? As for his passwords, let him know if he can't be open and earn back your trust then the floodgates of doubt will start rolling in. The tidalwave of despair is in the horizon and is he willing to lose his family over his stupid passwords?

Be firm, hold your ground and keep your stand. Losing a WS isn't a big loss. Losing your trust in him is.

Keep posting. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hugz,
L.

Hey, Losttired.

Having had my own "offroading " incident a few days after d-day I had to comment to you here:)

( Out of my mind on grief, a-d's and wine I drove my sportcar into a tree to end it all. I was two feetto the left away from succeeding)

I can only tell you a few things learned from Dr Harley and from my own experience. I'llpost on Boundaries first then I'll write about loving detachment for you. Sorry if its too long !

Plan A without boundaries

"Plan A" investment without a recovery context is doormat behaviour IME. I should know I was a doormat for WEEKS right after d-day.

What you need are personal boundaries: those inviolable rules that set minimum standards for how you allow yourself to be treated: that protect your dignity.

Without personal boundaries, plan A says " I am willing to do absolutely anything as long as you stay in this marriage"

WITH personal boundaries it becomes " THIS is what I am willing to do to rebuild our marriage if you meet minimum behaviour standards at least. I won't wait long for you to decide in or out. I want you but I don't need you".

Only YOU know what your personal boundaries are LostTired.
As a smart adult you can choose any path for yourself that you wish. But PLEASE do so in the light of facts not hope or denial.

If you require nothing from your WH in return for your plan A , love and faithfulness, please don't "hope" for a contribution from him and consider that a plan. Hope is NOT a plan.

If you DO require a return from your WH I propose that this will constitute a personal boundary of yours.

Mine are :
* Permanent NC and Total transparency - give me no reason to police you
* Take all action to protect me from further hurt
* Learn about why Squid had the affair and take action to prevent it recurring.

I would divorce Squid even now over persistent violations of these boundaries.

So Lost Tired its up to YOU. Work out what you require from your WH and accept no less.

Right now you are investing blindly and hoping for a return which is not a plan IME. Read "love must be tough" by James Dobson for a great explanation of this.

I would plan A INFORMING your WH of your boundaries and give him some short time to take action supporting your dignity and show commitment to your marriage. Then plan B him if he doesn't.

That will only be a nett loss to you if you value his disrespectful presence in your life more than your dignity. Thats a decision only you can make for YOU.

From my own experience once *I* started valuing myself more highly by setting boundaries, Squid valued me more too.

The converse of this is that if you are NOT WILLING to end your marriage unless your WH treats you with respect an ddignity, then PLEASE give yourself permission to accept what he gives you.Butthen, of course, you cannot really hope for more from this entitled man.

All blessings.

"The tidalwave of despair is in the horizon and is he willing to lose his family over his stupid passwords? "

That's the drill, is it about his stupid passwords or is it about him protecting/defending his "privacy" just in case someone comes along?

In his words, he's not as other WS here, he havent done nothing all that bad... a few ONS, EA's just because I called it, and well... he's here with us isn't he?

I guess deep inside the only problem was that he got caught <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I told him already, if that's what he wants, single life, open marriage, then let get over with this.

He says no, he wants Me, and the girls... but then no action.

Am I or our home atractive? Not really, total caos. Me, the girls.

Plan B, I think I need it. I really do, hard to face him lately witout feeling hatred feelings. I need it for myself, I am to blame... I refuse to move on without him. I feel I need him with the girls... but I just realized the kids might be better with divorced parents then withtout a mother.

Plan B is hard, no family here, no finances for him to support a house on his own, no friends where he can stay... but there might be a way I am not seing...

Plan B living in the same apartment... is it possible?

Thanks Orchid, you always give me some light <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> You put it all so simple.


Please answers I can mail to WS. I have told him all I could on honesty. Need to talk, comunication...

Hi Lost Tired !

Part two from me. Sorry I feel like I am hurling words at you but I think this is important.

In my own affair-battle, and in plan A , loving detachment was without doubt the technique that helped the most to get through the very bad times with my sanity and . It allowed me breathing space to be rational when faced with irrationality.

However vicious or entitled a persons actions may be towards us, and however dark a situation may appear, it is a stark realisation that it is OURSELVES who render events with the power to frighten or hurt us.

Some folks who tried to adopt loving detachment tried to IGNORE evil purpetrated in their lives and respond with a false rictus smile to the person who is hurting them. That is not what loving detachment is for me and I chide myself for not being able to explain sooner.

Loving detachment was a way I found to strip away the scariness I attributed to events and look only at the core elements of these events.

I'll start with a non infidelity example :

A banana skin skids to a halt at your feet, when you are rushing and feeling low, and you barely miss slipping on it. Things you might think while in an emotional state:

"I could have slipped on that ! GOD I might have broken my neck ! I Bet my spouse threw that there to kill me for my insurance ? What if there are more banana skins ? OH NO, I have to LIVE in a workd of banana skins for ever boo hoo hoo !" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

What loving detachment thinks :
"A banana skin. I need to step around that so I don't slip. Stay vigilant in case of further banana skins as I can only control my OWN placement of banana skins, not other people's."

See ?

It doesn't matter if a person tried to sabotage you with that banana skin,OR if it was dropped accidentally by a passing flying monkey, the core challenge, and correct response is identical once you strip away all the layers of portent you ascribe to an event.

When Squid would attend karate competitions that I suspcted OM may be at, against my direct request a wellsping of panic and fear surged within me. " She'll be kissing him ! Maybe they're not even at a karate event! Perhaps they've left to elope !"

Then I shouted "Stop! Detch! " to myself.

Facts :

1. Squid went to referee a weekend competition against my request less than a month after d-day. The only thing I know for sure is she won't be home over Saturday night.
2. Even if she *IS* PA'ing with OM, it does not change our situation.I Expect her to be wayward at this time. I am not "more cuckolded" by this ,if so.
3. I know there IS a competition at the time / place she says and that she is sharing a room with a trustworthy mutual friend.
4. How can I affect this in future ? Well, exposing to OM GF may apply a compulsion to OM not to attend these events. I should expose.
5. The weekend without soaking up Squids poison gives me a respite ! I will take the kids to a childrens' farm !


Loving detachment is DELIBERATELY stripping away portent from events and facts to allow calm rationalisation as to whether you can affect a situation positively or not.

It is not ignoring, it is not soaking up, it is not tolerating. It is revealing and dealing with the FACTS as practially as possible.

Another real example :

Event : Squid is highly entitled and is bullying me in her affair pomp, in the second whole week after NC established. She is making no effort to be transparent nor to work on our marriage. Highly dismissive, vituperative. I am terrified, the kids are being hurt.

WHOAH Bob !!! LOVING DETACHMENT MODE PLEASE :

What would I do if I were not afraid ?
- I'd tell Squid that I would rather live without her than WITH her this mean and disrespectful
What am I afraid of ?
- That this is the best Squid can ever give me and that she would leave if I enforced a boundary requiring more
SO this is a dignity issue. Best case is that I get my baby AND my dignity. Whats the best compromise ?
- That I keep my dignity and lose my baby.

So, loving detachment, what are the FACTS to consider ?

1. She could leave ANY time she wanted with or without my protecting my dignity
2. If she left as a result of having to respect minimum boundaries, I am only worse off if I value that toxic corruption of a marriage more than my own dignity.
3. If she leaves I will be healthy,have the support of my employer and my kids and we will be fine, after a time of sadness. It is highly unlikely that we will be broken by this.
4. If she stays and respects my boundaries we may all just "win the lottery" !.

Decision - restate my boundary to Squid.

Lovng Detachment released me from the chains of fear. That night I asked Squid my famous question :" baby WHY are you here ? You said you would stay and work on our marriage - and I am struggling to see anything I would call "marriagebuilding" from you right now. I want you , very much, but I do not need you. Do not stay only because you think I will fall apart if you leave. I will not.
The door on this marriage is open - you can leave any time, as can I. Just know that I will not tolerate perceived disrespect for long before I protect myself from it."

Squid flipped a switch that night like so many WS do.

Even when I make a bad decision using the facts loving detachment presented me, I could simply apply LD to the NEW situation and make a new decision in light of my experience.

Does any of this make any sense ? I hope it helps.

Bob Pure, thank you so much!
It all makes a lot of sense, and you are so very right on everything... I just fast read it.

Going to read it all again more calm when I get home.

No Plan B in the same apartment, sorry.

If he is not willing to give you the basic respect you need to heal, he must leave. Where he goes is his problem, and a natural consequence of his own choices.

He will try to blame you, but HE is the one who chose the no family option.