[color:"red"] Gimble [/color] ... can you give an example so I can see what you mean?

Pep

Hi, Pep.

Since all betrayed spouses show up with some fear and anger, then we can consider those two variables as being interactive "constants" in that they are always present. Apathy, on the other hand, can come from depression or a genuine lack of interest or any point in between. So I look at apathy as a modulator of fear and anger. Guilt can also play a part, but it is usually self evident, so I consider it as standalone variable.

So, for an example. Someone shows up really angry at their spouse, desperate to tear into the wayward spouse, but shows little fear of what the outcome of a desperate act would be, then I would be looking at their level of apathy apart from the initial anger reaction at the discovery of the affair.

If the apathy factor is high, and it isn't due to depression, then I have strong doubts as to the motivations of the poster toward saving the marriage.

Does that help?

Gimble

Pep ~

I'm glad you posted this:
because this is exactly what I was thinking.

In my years of Al Anon I found that there is no such thing as refusal to make a decision. A decision to do nothing is a choice. There is always a payoff for the BS that does this:

1. Victimhood is a comfortable place for many. If my identity is tied up in victimhood, I need my spouse to continue being bad so I can continue getting attention. I feel good when people with shock and admiration say "Oh poor you! How can you possible endure!"

2. As long as my spouse is "bad", I get to feel like the "good" spouse. My own self worth is based on a comparision to my spouse.

3. As long as I get to take my spouse's inventory (which is a fun, drama filled addicting pastime) there is no time to take my own (which is a painful, uncomfortable thing to do).

Pep, remember WOE? Walking on eggshells?

He didn't choose to do nothing exactly, but he did choose to do very little. In spite of that, he stayed an posted on and off for well over a year. I haven't seen him for close to a year.

Nothing ever changed, and he received tons of advice from a wide cross section of people. Some of his last posts indicated he didn't believe anything was going to change, in spite of his "actions", so he just chose to live in "informed" denial.

SD

[color:"red"] BR [/color]

I tolerated a drunken spouse pre-affair. I did not like it, but I had not bottomed out.

Post-discovery ... my tolerance for his drinking became ZERO.

It's like I did a bait'n'switch on him ... what had been at one time tolerable (if not enjoyable, at least ignorable) was now verboten ....

What happened?
What made me so decisive ... almost in the blink of an eye?

Pep

a little

but being honest .... still not able to grasp fully your point

don't give up !

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Pep

I might be wrong ... but wasn't his wife boarderline , or something?

If I remember correctly, he was not dealing with a very "fixable" situation.

Pep

Who knows Pep?

Bottom happens when the pain of staying the same is greater than the pain of change.

However, many of us came from homes where boundaries and self protection were defined as something that was bad.

My parents never saw a boundary that they did instantly set out to crush in me. I had no sense whatsoever as to what was OK behavior and what was not. The first 8 years of my marriage I believed that I was raised in a perfect family.

Reality, boundaries, self protection - were all defined differently than the rest of the somewhat sane healthy world defines it.

For me, it was a series of bottoms.

I slid slowly into a numbing depression that resulted in a bottom so low...that one morning I woke, staring at the ceiling, I decided that I could not live even ONE more day the way I was living. So. the next question was, do I kill myself or change? I decided to live because of my children.

It was one small step at a time, tiny, itsy bitsy steps upwards that I climbed. From the outside, people didn't think I was changing or would change.

2 years later, was when my husband's affair happened. I was already on my way to change.

Change is a process. Some of us get it sooner than others, it doesn't make us better or worse, its all about pain tolerance.

I was raised by 2 healthy parents.... I have ZERO excuses <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Pep wrote:
==========================================
but being honest .... still not able to grasp fully your point
==========================================

Okay, no problem.

Do you know what a process control loop is?

The ratio I wrote about is an abstract set of variables that would be used as indicators of the output of a process loop.

Have a look here for an idea of control theory.

While humans can be unpredictable, their actions within a situation often directly predict the outcome of the situation. In other words, identifying which actions are most likely to affect, or have the greatest affect on a situation, often gives strong indication as to the outcome.

Is that any better yet?

Gimble

As I recall, she had a ONS with Woe's BF on their pool team. She was totally infatuated with him and always continued to want to be on his team, periodic calls that wouldn't stop, and she simply would not do the NC thing. Woe was a chronic conflict avoider, and never established and enforced boundaries. Last I knew, it was semi-peaceful coexistance, with her remaining in contact, and Woe doing nothing. She was the epitome of self-entitled behavior.

SD

well there ya go. You had a sense of self protection that others have to develop, often while recovering from emotional trauma.

My parents had proudly and intentionally developed in me a very high level of pain tolerance.

Although, I have to say...

For some it is just about plain old stubbornness. I think they are mad at God, mad at the world and mad that they didn't get their way. So instead of adapting, they are sulking in a corner.

*MY* way or nuthin...

Control freaks are often doormats that belong to this category.

Good lord! I didn't know which way was up when I began posting! Sometimes, I still have that problem, but I follow MB priniciples. I outed the A, I've told all that I can, I've cut my WH OFF with Plan B. I've gone silent, in hopes to reclaim my M, but I still, sometimes, feel like those whom you elude to.

Should I just divorce? I have taken control of what *I* can. I began securing an LSA, the week after WH left, I protect my child and will not allow overnights around 'aimless' the OW. I have begun planning my life without the WH. I DO HAVE SETBAX, and DO WANT MY M.

I guess the question I have is, if we are subscribing to MB, and following the 'rules', I thought we SHOULDN'T be the one to file for D (if recovery is our goal). I waffle, emotionally. I cannot make this decision (to D) until I can do it logically. Let me tell you, there have been MANY a day that I have held back from calling my A and saying FILE FILE FILE. My DS is involved, didn't ask for this, and I'm treading water some days. Is that acceptable? I don't think it is wise to make a decision based solely on anger and frustration. But, hey, that's just me, one lonely poster on this GREAT BIG FORUM!


(P.S. with my feeble mind, I thought Pep meant Board Certified Vets....what can I say, works been busy, and I'm a loon!)

The whole point of marriage is that it is a commitment of care. You shouldn't have to compete with any other person for your husband's care. You shouldn't have to put up with abuse or infidelity or neglect.

It's not the BS's fault.

My husband has told me many times that I'm not committed and if I'm not committed this is never going to work. I've struggled with that, thinking I need to be committed. Now I'm very clear in my response -- you're right I'm not committed. My willingness to live with you is dependent on your behavior.

I want to feel cherished. I won't settle for less. I look back with deep regret at not having left the hotel room where we spent our wedding night and found other accomodations. Had I made it clear immediately that I would not put up with disrespect, I would not have had it all these years.

On Saturday, he said "F*** you" to me. I've heard those words countless times before. Now I remove myself from him. There is absolutely no point in arguing with him about how he treats me. The only thing I can do is remove myself from him when he treats me badly. He was so nasty to me on Sunday that I said I wouldn't go to his brother's house for Easter dinner. I think he was surprised. It was just too much for me. I did go to Easter dinner when he was conciliatory, and he's been nice to me since then.

Foolish me. I think my whole problem has hinged on an understanding of the word commitment. To me, commitment used to mean that I needed to accept him as he was and forgive him when he hurt me. Now it no longer means that I have to put up with whatever the other person dishes out. To me, it now means that I won't remarry. To me, the commitment to the vow of marriage is permanent no matter what the circumstances. I can withdraw. I can separate. I can divorce. The door will be open to reconciliation if I don't remarry.

I've told him that, if things don't improve by fall, I'm asking for a separation, and I'll make it a minimum of one year.

It's simply not the fault of the BS if the WS doesn't cherish you. It's a failure on the WS's part to fulfill the marriage vow of loving, cherishing, and being faithful. Commitment is a commitment of care, not a commitment to tolerate abuse, neglect and/or infidelity.

Cherished

No, not really.

See, I grew up with the clear message that if I acted sweet, gentle, innocent and utterly undefended, aggressors would find it impossible to attack me because their consciences would hurt too much. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

On the other hand, if I stood up for myself, showed some spirit or indignation, I was instantly an ugly, unpleasant person who my aggressor had every right to flatten.

For 'aggressor', read 'mother'. The only defence against my mother was to be blatantly, hopelessly undefended. It was the only thing that stopped her tantrums in the end.

I'm still struggling to convince myself that I have a right to stand up for myself. I can stand up for my kids, but when it comes to me...I dry up. I know that probably sounds nuts to people who grew up in healthy families, but it's like finding out in midlife that you've been identifying colours wrong all your life. You TELL yourself it's yellow, but your mind has been seeing it as orange for so long, it just doesn't come naturally.

So you end up in a lose/lose situation. You can stand up for yourself, possibly save your marriage and make it more healthy...but feel yourself to be a vile, hateful person who has behaved disgracefully. It takes a lot of internal refocussing to see what disrespect looks like, and that you're entitled not to tolerate it, AND that someone else's hate, directed at you, does not make you a bad person.

You can end up seriously paralysed by this.

TA

Read posts from the 1st page then jumped to the end.... ok, my $.02 <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Of course there are some who like t/b victims. However, in most cases it is a case of frustration and confusion.

BS' c/b conflict avoiders also. This adds to the stress of being a BS.

Then there's the mind and heart not in sync thingy.

The combo c/b dangerous and many find themselves stuck between a rock and a WS. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> What an icky place t/b.

What I find helpful to some is to share my experience or an experience I am familar with that may help them see where they are and where they s/b. Giving them a goal via a story. Sometimes it is much easier to see what t/d when you read it as a 3rd person.

Of course if it was the WS speaking...well the 3rd person is generally the fogged one. LOL!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Don't want to talk or take advice from such a fogheaded jerk or jerkette. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

So have I ever wondered? Yep....lots of times. Now you gonna ask who have I wondered that about? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Hm..... I'll never tell. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

L.

Why not, Pep? Perhaps the "answer" to your current musing is right there, but you are "unaware" of it. Your response IS the response of anyone who is "unaware" or has a very poor understanding of their own Standards and Boundaries, until they choose a set of them instead of just "going with the flow." A person's relationship with God and how they see themselves also has a direct bearing on your "protect me" question, but we'll not go there simply because you made it clear that you are "unaware" of how that might impact the very question you are pondering.

And these are the most exhasperating types of all, maybe because I too grew up in an alcoholic home. Mine were very loving, but it was also a very strict military environment...so it was total confusion to me.

But like you said change is a process and it is important to remember that anything we do to help someone see a healthier way is never a waste.

It's all seeds that eventually will sprout and will be of help to them when they decide it is time to change and take responsibility.

This has been one of my favorite threads. A true meeting of the minds with... no DJ's or arrogance or hurt feelings. Threads like these really show the incredible goodness, desire to help others through their darkest hours and awesome minds gathered here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Chrisner, I thought your analogy was really a good one.

personally I honestly don't give a rats behind where the poster is...

here there denial acceptance anger .....

it's all the same...

it's all about me
and giving the same advice like water dripping on a stone...

though you can always ask them...
what is it you want...
really really want....

isn't the answer as unique as every poster here....

my favorite posters without a doubt are those that ask question after question....then they get a bunch of responses and advice and hopefully find a path to something or somewhere....

personally I don't believe anyone that says I read about plan A and have been doing it....I am not convinced that the concept is that easily understood or applied....

It's the pool of Bethesda down through the ages...

"Do you want to be well"?

each poster has a different' answer..

aRK

ugh - i hate it when people quote me and all my typos that I couldn't see before stick out like sore thumbs... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Weaver ~ me too - strict catholic and military family with rampant dry alcoholism.

Pep ~ this discussion is interesting - BUT - do you think you are perhaps too focused on the outcome?

Since the boards are here as support forums I think it is safe to assume that the poster wants advice, input, or just someone to share with.

Now of course there are those that are not here for those reasons, but does it matter?

In AlAnon, we are told NOT to give advice. That rule is not exactly appropriate here because advice IS needed for logistical stuff like "How and where and when to Expose".

However, in general I think AlAnon gets it right. I find that my relationships with people are much easier when I am not so emotionally invested in the outcome of guideance or help that I am asked for.

A quick rule to sharing in AlAnon meetings is a very wise one. Share where you were, where you are today, and what you did to get there.

Of course, everyone else takes what they like and leaves the rest.