Uh, barnyard, why the joint checks? Do you intend to finance her affair?

Larry

No. The joint checks were from escrow (closing on a construction loan) and also an insurance refund. I had her sign them and then I deposited it into my checking account.

I had a conversation with her this weekend about the A again. Of course she tried to downplay it and said that I was right, that it was starting to faid out. I don't think I can believe a word that comes out of her mouth right now. Just the other day, she was explaining to me how their relationship had gotten better recently. I told her that I could not continue to finance her affair.

I think the right move for me to do now is just lay low for a while. She's pretty upset with me, and needs some time to think about what I've said to her. Is this the right move, or do I keep at her. What are some ways to negotiate with her, or do I even try it right now. It doesn't seem like she is very receptive to it at all. Plan A includes negotiating with the WS to have NC with OP. She is involved in a pretty significant EA, and most likely a PA because it has gone on so long (since Sept 06). She has found her "soul mate", blah blah blah. Anytime I attempt to reach her, her defenses go up and she thinks I'm trying to be controlling and she gets angry. Any suggestions?

Hi - Just reading through this thread because it sounds very similar to a situation one of my friends is in. She's the wife who had an affair and is leaving her husband. In her situation, the affair came as a result of years of an unfulfilling & heart-numbing marriage, so the affair itself is not the cause of the divorce. I'm not an expert, but I suspect that affairs are generally symptoms of the larger state in the relationship.

But from what I'm gathering, Dr. H's message is for those situations in which both parties want to save their marriage ... forgive me for being blunt, but in this case it sounds like only you want to save it. It sounds like your wife has been unhappy, and she's moving on, so I don't know how these tactics of cutting off her money & shaming her are going to help bring her back. Actually, they sound more like punishment, which certainly wouldn't bring me running back to a husband that I was already unhappy with.

I've only read your side of the story here, and I've learned from my friend's situation that there are always two sides. The messages on this thread telling you to punish your wife are very strong, but I really wanted to put the message out here that -- in my opinion -- tactics to shame & punish others who have hurt us really don't bring
peace to anyone. It feels to me like games are being played here, when in this situation what is really required (again, my opinion) is only honesty between you and your wife. You've mentioned in the thread that she's not being clear and that you don't understand, but you also say that you acknowledge you played a role in the marriage not working. My humble suggestion is that you take what she says at face value, stay honest with her, and stop the games.

I can't imagine your pain, and I am not minimizing how devastating this is. I'm coming from a place informed by my friend's experience, and with that background I'm concerned that the advice you're getting here is only causing more pain and alienation.

Just my 2-cents.

Keep reading. Ask questions.

Larry

Larry is dead on!

Sunny, If you truly want to know something about affairs, delusion, rationalization, faulty reasoning, selfishness that leads to affairs and more there is plenty here to help you and your betrayed husband save your marriage. Step 1 is to see yourself for who you have allowed yourself to become and take responsibility for your actions.

We can help a wayward who wants to change but a wayward coming w/ entitlement and no remorse will get nothing but the truth. This is not a place where "friends", "family" tell you what you want to hear or support you no matter the damage you are/have caused by your betrayal(s).

Quote from Harley....




FYI.

Extremely fine line here between competing and being a doormat in my opinion. Competing is paying the light bill, the water bill, car insurance, etc. Doormat is paying for the cell phone she uses to call OM, the debit card she uses to rent hotel rooms to sleep with OM, the email account she uses to email,chat and have phone sex with OM. Come ****** or high water would I pay for anything that was being used to help her have an affair. She can leave first.

barnyard, pay no attention to Sunny, she has no idea what she is talking about. Good job setting that nonsense straight, Larry! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Stick to your guns, cut off the money and stop financing the affair. Once the WS moves out, you should pay for nothing since that is enabling the affair. Let her know that you will do what it takes to save your marriage, but as long as she lives there, you will not be financing her affair.

Hang in there, you are doing great. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ok, I'll bite. If that quotation wasn't taken out of context, then why don't you call Harley on his radio program and as him, for example, if the spouse is supposed to pay for the motel room where he/she bangs her lover.

Supporting emotionally doesn't mean "Oh baby, I am sooooo proud of you, I hope you get knocked up." Or financially, "here's a few bucks, buy him a drink before you do him."

Support emotionally doesn't mean ENABLING. Support financially doesn't mean ENABLING. Got it? If not, by all means ask the Harleys.

Larry

PS Thanks Mel, I gave her the gentled down version. You shudda seen my first draft. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

you did good, my fine Texan friend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

And you are right that he took that quote out of context. The article in question refers to a WW who is living at home, so of course the BS should support her financially while at home.

It is a different story ENTIRELY when the WS moves out to carry on her affair. Paying for the apartment [aka affair lair] or hotel room so a WS can carry on an active affair is nothing more than ENABLEMENT. NOWHERE does Harley EVER advise a spouse to finance an affair and he has stated this clearly on his radio show. SEPERATE THE FINANCES.

Thank you all for the input. It looks like Sunny really stirred the pot.

Sunny, I will address this to you:

First and foremost – I love my wife!!

I am not into playing games and I am certainly not into punishment. The Plan A/ Plan B steps seem almost counter-intuitive at first glance, but as I have read through these forums I have seen many success stories. Dr. H’s books and principles are very good and provide a recipe for a stronger, more intimate marriage. My W and I want the same thing out of life and I am motivated to give it to her. I want her back and want to work on our issues together, not separate or with other people.

Do we have a perfect marriage? No, but I’ve never heard of one. Am I a perfect husband? No, I am far from that. Is she the perfect wife? No, but she is closer than I am. Yes, I have contributed to and created the environment that allowed an affair to develop. I did not do this on purpose, but I can look back now and see my mistakes and also the person that I had become. This affair/separation has been the smack on the back of the head that I have needed for so long. It has forced me to evaluate my life and really focus in on what is important to me.

I have had quite a few light-bulb moments as I have read, studied and tried to improve myself. One of those moments was reading HNHN. This should be handed out to every couple before they get married, or at least to the guys. I didn’t get it before, and it didn’t come naturally to me, but now I know. I have been happy in our marriage, but now understand that it was nothing close to the happiness that we can have.

What matters to me now most in life is the happiness of my loved ones. This means understanding what they need, what makes them happy as well as unhappy. This means making the right adjustments along the way. It takes work, but more importantly honesty and openness between both parties.

My W has been there for me, but I didn’t always let her in my head. I went through some major frustrations over a long period of time at work a couple of years ago. It was very emotionally and physically draining, but I just buried it and tried to leave it at the door. This was done because I thought I had to be a man and not show weakness to her. Men are not supposed to show emotion right?? This was not openness, and did not allow us to connect and draw on her for support. I have learned that these are the type of things that bring strength and closeness in a marriage.

Currently, my wife is still saying that she has no desire to be with me or even try to work on things between us. She says that it is over between her and the OM. I’m not sure what “over” means. Of course the only right way to do it is to establish NC with a letter and I doubt that has happened. I think that if she is really ready to be done with him, she’ll need some support and help to do it right. I received an email from her two days ago that explained her position. She described events/memories that would lead to an unfulfilling and heart-numbing life. I believe that these feelings are very real. She has quite a bit of resentment towards me and is clearly focusing on the bad things. She explained that she has been depressed for quite some time. Now she feels good about her new life w/o me. I have been put in a box along with our marriage. It will take some forgiveness on her part for me to get out of it.

The person that I know as my W would not give up her kids, would not hurt her kids, would not give up her husband, would not turn her back on friends, would not trade in a stable life for utter chaos. Through talking to my IC, I have learned that an affair can really distort one’s thinking, history is re-written, and values are abandoned. I was told that this is usually done to justify the actions or place blame on something. This sometimes takes a long time to come out of depending on the length and type of affair. When someone does come out of it, they feel a deep regret for the damage that was done. Can someone provide some feedback on this subject?? It is called Foggy thinking here and manifests itself as WS babble. How does this happen and why? Are there ways to get through this? The thoughts are usually attached to emotions and seem to be very real. Are there discussions out there that address this? Any input here would be great.

I want to include a quote from something written by BobPure in another thread. This is beautiful. I’ve taped it up on my wall at work.

“I have learned, and I truly believe that there is no higher state of grace for a man than to be what his family needs in troubled times, particularly when he doesn’t feel capable of so being.”

BTW, I think my wife is now reading this thread, in case you couldn’t tell.

thanks

Oh my! I had no idea it could be your wife. On one level, I am so sorry. On another level, no I am not. Right is right and wrong is nobody. In other words, truth is truth and giving in to the temporary feelings that are in your mind is long term pain, for sure.

Sonny, Sonny, I started to say you sounded like my wife when she was in full blown out of her mind mode but I didn't. I thought you were a typical wayward trying to justify your temporary "Feelings." Well, guess you were come to think of it.

Lemme catch my breath and I will try to help you instead of just pointing out the obvious unless barnyard would prefer I keep my mouth shut. Think courage to own your own stuff.

PK, AP, MrsW etc. Get you happy selves in this thread before she quits reading!

Larry

Well, well.... apparently I was a prophet (see my post to Sunny on 5/2/07).

Sunny,

As I said in my post to you on 5/2 you will not find justification, acceptance, condonence, etc here for having an affair. Will not happen.

On the other hand, if you wish to create a new and better marriage with your H full of hope, fulfillment and laced with hard work then here is where you and he need to be. There are many, many M wrought with resentment, unforgiveness, bitterness and lastly infidelity that have been saved here. These FWW and FWH's have new leases on life and M as a result of doing what was necessary to get there and not packing up and moving on only to find themselves in a similar position with someone else (seeing their children half the time, financially busted, etc) at some point in the future.

Step 1...Own your stuff, the affair. Your H has admitted being an accessory to your M being in a bad state of repair but your choice to find another man to fill your void while married to your H and to give yourself to him emotionally, physically, etc and to shut your husband out was all YOUR doing.

BY and (possibly BY's W)

There is awesome advice being given here!!! Please check out my entire thread (starting with #1) and see how now, almost 2 years later, my FWW, myself and beautiful children are recovered and connected in a way FAR beyond where I thought it could be! It is a fairly long set of threads, but I couldn't be prouder of myself and my wife, nor more thankful to the people of this board and the Harley's for helping me to become a better person, and thus a better marriage partner!!!!
MWIL

Larry, I appreciate all of your input. I have learned so much from reading what is posted here. Most of all, I have learned that my wife and I are not alone in this. This is a very common situation and there is a pattern to it. I feel like I can see the future and the happiness in store for us. My wife, bless her heart, cannot see it. Any insight or experiences out there are helpful.

thanks

Common, dirt common.

And I could write the script as could tons of others. Those in an affair say the same things, lie to themselves the same way, change their minds in the same way, have the same feelings, it is all such a hair ball mess.

Larry

Sunny:

Yes there are two sides of every story. In my case, you can actually read both sides of the story.

And I am sure your M to Barnyard had its share of trouble. It may have truly been "years of an unfulfilling & heart-numbing marriage", but in all reality, I would bet that Barnyard could detail a fun and happy occasion from your M for every "unfulfilling and heart-numbing" occasion that you name.

You guys married each other for a reason, and if you could put aside all of the resentment you have built up, the two of you could work together and make a special relationship in the future...with the family INTACT. My wife and I have had no greater joy in all of our marriage, than the last four months since she decided to come back to the M.

People CAN change, and it sounds as though Barnyard has already made substantial changes. He can't control you or force you to come back, BUT wouldn't you want YOU and your children to be the beneficiaries of those changes?

My wife said the exact same things you have said, and MEANT every one of them just like you mean them right now. That I could NEVER change, that my changes were too late, that in her mind the Marriage was already over, that She had emotionally checked out, etc. That doesn't mean that won't regret your choices, six months, two years, or whenever down the road. Wouldn't you want to be able to look your children in the eye years down the road, and be able to truly tell them that you did everything you could to keep the family intact and give them a two-parent home?

I am not saying that our recovery has not had it's share of pitfalls and speedbumps. But it has been the most gratifying experience of my life so far. Please read some of my wife's threads on here. You can see that we still have our problems, but that she is very happy now that she stayed, and we tackle our new issues together.

My Non-Chemical Romance - hrdhddwoman (she got blasted on this thread for her choices, but you can still see how she feels about our M now)

BTW, the attraction issue has been solved. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> (Thank God!)

This thread shows where my Wife and I overcame a huge hurdle for Us

And Larry178 was instrumental in helping hrdhddwoman and I to reach a resolution to these issues. (Thanks again Larry <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

Lastly, please read about how my wife is feeling now about oure M and how we are working together to better our new Marriage:

To LostBoy68: I Love You!!

You and Barnyard do not have to live in "pain and alienation", you can live in happiness, honesty, and safety if you choose to do so. It will require hard work, but if you both put the effort in, I guarantee that YOU and YOUR FAMILY will never regret it.

I hope you make the right choice.

LoBoy

PS - If you also want to read my side of the story, you can search my prior posts. It was the second post that I made.

PSS - If you want to email my wife hrdhddwoman, I am sure she would be willing to give you her candid thoughts about our M when she was "where you are right now". And also what she feels about our new M, and where we are going with it together. Her email address is in her signature.

Sonny, or Artor's wife as the case may be:

This is the link in my signature. To save you the effort, I am copying it here and paragraphing to make it easier to read.

Trueheart is a former wayward spouse. He speaks from his heart after he found it again. He has walked in your shoes and understands not only where your head and heart are, but also why how you feel now is very, very temporary. You are on the road to an emotional train wreck (if not there already), exactly as you have already caused to others. TH calls the shots as they are. Please think about it. Right now you are afraid as much as anything else. Don't fear doing the right thing.

Larry


Dear WS's everywhere,

Thank you for taking the time and effort to read this letter. I am writing this in hopes that your BS has brought you here in order that you might understand you are not alone in your thoughts and feelings. It is intended to give you a measure of comfort and hope that you can feel safe as you come out the fog that has enveloped you so tightly over the past weeks, months, or years.

I do not know many of you by name, nor do I know of all the details or circumstances surrounding your life, or your affair(s). What I do know is that we share two very important things in our lives and [that] makes us somewhat connected as a WS [Wayward spouse]. I am hoping that I can help you come back to the light, so that you can come back to the light that has, for so long, shielded you with that dense fog you may still be in.

The first thing that we share is the love of a person that totally, completely, and unconditionally stand by our side. Through thick and thin, for better or worse, in our darkest hours, we have someone that has always believed in us, and still does. They have put up with our lies, our anger, our accusations, and maybe in some cases verbal and/or physical abusiveness.

They have watched us trash the things they believed in more than anything in the world...our marriage, our vows, our trust and our love. In spite of it all, they see in us their hopes, their dreams, and their futures. They can't, nor do they want to see themselves without us for the rest of their lives. They accept our imperfections and our infidelity as we have strayed from that which we know is wrong. They have continued to believe in us and want to help us right the ship and stay the course.

They are willing to forgive us, grant us our mistakes, and come home to rebuild that life and make it better. They know they are not perfect as well. They know they have made mistakes. They need us to open up, talk to them and give them answers so that they [too] can learn, heal, and help repair the damage. They will accept their responsibility in these things.

Can you?

We, most of us, also have children that look at us, and see only the love of a Mom or a Dad. They don't see us as imperfect, scared, or angry. They see us as a shelter, a safe haven where they can laugh, cry, hurt, be silly or serious, and tell us their fears or fantasies. We are their safety net when they fall. They look to us for answers in life, no matter how big or small the answers are. Our life changed, no matter much we didn't want it to when we helped create that life. We owe our children the best chance to learn from us. We owe them our unconditional, total, and complete love, so that they can start on the journey with as few bumps and bruises as possible. They look to you for truth in their lives.

To deny them that chance, is a travesty. You took an oath, in your heart and mind, to protect and defend and teach YOUR child, as soon as they were created. So, you see, you have people in your life that believe in you, love you, accept you, want you, need you, cherish you, and the list goes on and on.

I know for a fact, that many of you, when with the OP, badmouth your spouse. You tell the OP how they do all the right things, fill you up, make you feel alive, do all the things your spouse does not, or used to do. You tell this person they are everything you ever wanted. They arouse you, they make you happy...interesting how you told your spouse that at one time too. And, the truth is, if you were to search your heart, you are not letting them do that now. They want to, they beg you to let them try...you justify your A, by telling them "I just don't feel that for you anymore", "I don't know if I want to be married anymore", "I dont know what I want", and a myriad of other flimsy reasons and excuses to buy time to spend with the OP.

You give justifications that are so superficial they can't hold water. We even search our minds to think of everything that our spouse ever did, no matter how insignificant, how long ago it was, in order to make us feel better about cheating. We can find any reason to blame our spouse for US deciding and making a conscious choice to cheat and find a reason to say it is ok. What we should be doing is finding every reason for our BS to forgive us. We should be finding every reason to stay together, to come home, to make it right, to be a family...loving and supportive, forgiving and trusting. And you know what? Those reasons are there...everyday...the smile, the laugh, the tears, the love....they are there each and everyday!! Just look!!!

The second thing we share is the fact that we are all weak!! I know full well the pain, anger, frustration, fear, embarrassment, passion, fun, laughter, love, fear, and all the rest of the wide range of emotions of having an A. I know what is like to have that OP fill up your senses...so full and so fast you wonder how you ever made it without them. The sex is great, the passion is overwhelming, you can't wait to see them, touch them, hear them...all the while drifting further and further from your marriage...lost in the fog.

[Yet] NO matter how we justify it, that other person...is a cheater, as well. They know we are married and they choose to cheat with us. And in many cases, probably have before, and have told the other person they are with, all the same, exact things they tell us. "You are my soulmate" "you are the only one for me" etc etc. We have heard em all and said em all. We have been told they can make us happy "for the rest of our lives". WE have been so blinded by it all, that we give up family and friends we have had for years, in order for this OP to feel safe with us and convince them how we feel.

We take all the energies that we don't use at home, and give them to someone "new". We spend money, time, and energy to build something with someone exciting, instead of spending that with someone that knows us and truly loves us. You see, the truth is, that we, both members of the affair, are very good at one thing....telling each other exactly what we want to hear. We put together elaborate speeches, write poetry, find mushy cards, send the "perfect" gifts, say the right things...all for this other person. Both of us continue to hone our "cheating" skills to the point of perfection.

Whatever happened to doing that to your spouse, instead of leaving them at the side of the road with a flat tire? We have derailed their entire life and emotionally checked out...in order to make us feel better about the affair. That simply isn't right.

We took years to build something. We may have taken several years to weaken the foundation of it. But in one simple night of lust, and that is what it is, lust, we tried to destroy it. If we truly "loved" this person, if we truly believed what we were doing is right, true, and good, there would be no indecision on our part. There would be no hesitancy at all. The bottom line is that, you can trust the person you are cheating with less than you can trust yourself. It is a proven fact that only 25% [3%] of all affairs ever make it. Deep down in your heart, you still love your spouse, and you know it. You don't want to give up the excitement and passion you have found.

The truth is that your marriage will never again go back to what it was. The blind faith in each other is gone....it is replaced with doubt and fear. The wonderful thing is that you now have a chance to "rediscover" your spouse, your marriage, and your family. It is not as hard as you may think, but will take some dedication on your part. But the beauty of the whole thing is you will be stronger and more in love than you ever thought you could be. You create new memories, new routines, a new life.

You re-commit, reinvest your time and energies in that which truly loves you. The truth is most affairs end when the OP either gets what they thought they needed from you, and even more of them end when the OP finds another WS. Oddly enough, you weren't enough for them either. In the end you are left with no loving spouse, no children, no family, no friends.....and your OP that was so steadfastly dedicated to you is off romping with "the love of their life".

I know from whence I speak, my friends. I know of the pain, the sorrow, the hurt, the look in my childrens eyes when I left the house. I hear the sounds of my W crying, begging, pleading, and hurting. I now see what a fool I was. I now spend everyday, more happy than I ever thought I could be. If the world were to end tomorrow, she would know I loved her as no other.

No, she won't ever forget about the A, and along the way, there will be things that will trigger her mind, but, she has forgiven. You need to talk to your spouse to help them. YOU are the only one that can help them. They need you, much more now than ever before. You have to swallow that pride of yours, for them to heal. You have to open your life up to them, and hide nothing. You have to make it about them. The affair was making it about you, so now you owe it to them, no matter how embarrassed you are, no matter how much you don't wnat to talk about it, to make it about them. Their piece of mind, their feelings are all that matter. They know, from being here, what they need to do in order to help meet your needs.

It is now up to you, to learn what you need to do in order to meet theirs. And make no mistake about it, it will be hard work, but it is oh so worth it!! This person you married, is willing to work with you in order to show you the love you deserve!! Are you willing to work to show them how much you truly love them??

By being here, at Marriage Builders, they have shown that they are willing to adopt the principles that it takes to put their marriage back together. They have pledged their love, and even their support, to your recovery, as well as theirs. They have accepted the crumbs you have offered them, while knowing full well you were at the buffet with the other person in your life.

You have one of the strongest, most committed, most wonderful, loving, and caring people in the world on your side. Don't expect them not be angry from time to time. Don't expect them to be perfect, let you off the hook, and not talk about it with you. They need and want to understand you and all the things surrounding what happened. It is part of the healing process. What you can expect is love, honesty, and the rebuilding of your marriage. They know what it takes to make things work now. They also know that they, as well as you, have to be stronger than ever before in their life, if this is going to work. That is why they are still here...they understand. They even know, that you may backslide in the beginning, but are willing to deal with that, in order to preserve and protect that which they believe in ......YOU.

I implore you, WS, burn off the fog. See the sand that is your foundation for the affair. There is no solid basis for this relationship..it is all smoke and mirrors that reflects this "love" you have found. Run, do not walk, back home and give your marriage all the energy, gifts, poems, cards, and love that you have given to the affair. The results are remarkable.

But you have to be willing to be honest with yourself, first of all. You have to admit there is a problem, and you have to be willing to fix it, with your spouse, a counselor, whatever or whoever it takes to fix it. You have to be willing to want to be there in mind, body, and spirit. You will find a love more wonderful than anything you knew before.

I hope this helps, in some way, to show you what life can be after an affair. I know that I am blessed with the most wonderful person. I was given the opportunity to feel what life was like without her, and it was not what I wanted. I found the answers I sought...I found them both here, and in her arms. I can only hope, that in some small way, you find the same thing, and that I helped the fog to lift. If you ever wish to talk to someone who understands what we WS go through, then feel free to write me [email]...trueheart42@hotmail.com.[/email] There is a path back home. You need only choose it! Keep the faith!

*Out of our greatest fears, come our bravest deeds!*

Trueheart

barnyard, I am very sorry to hear this because it will be impossible to help you strategize to end this affair. Our posts were specifically addressed for your eyes only to help you protect yourself and end this affair. We can't do that if your WS is reading here. I wish you the best.

On the other hand, with respect to Mel, who has been here a lot longer than me, we can sometimes help the both of you if you both want the help. It depends on the situation.

Correct me if I am wrong Mel. And based on heartsore and others I have seen, you are correct; an unrepentant WS reading these threads is a real bad idea unless a 2X4 wakes them up.

Larry