Hi again,

In a “soul mate” type of affair, how long do Waywards generally carry a torch for the Other Person? Do the feelings ever completely fade, especially when they believed that it was love? I know my D-Day was fairly recent, but this eats away at me to the point that I want to just walk away. I don’t know how much longer I can bear this. Is there light at the end of the tunnel or is this just a very bitter pill that I have to swallow in order to salvage my marriage?

If you had read "His Needs, Her Needs" you wouldn't ask that question.

A HINT at the correct answer is that NC only makes sense if the answer to your question is an emphatic YES.

Sorry.

one, I believe it is very much like alcohol for an alcoholic. I have not drank in 22 years. When I think of drinking, I feel nothing but disgust and revulsion. To me, that would be like asking to be admitted back into the worst sort of he11 on earth you can imagine. It would mean a world of humiliation, self degradation, terror, and sadness. No sane person could ever volunteer for that, right?


I know without a doubt, that if I had another drink, I could be seduced into forgetting all that pain and terror. One drink, one taste, is all it would take. This is why I never drink and don't hang out in bar environments. All it would take is for the inevitable weak moment to collide with opportunity and I would be off an running again.

I believe it is the exact same for many WS. My H doesn't believe he was ever addicted to his OW, but he does have the same visceral reaction of disgust when the OW is mentioned. But, I have no doubt he could be seduced all over again.

Dr. Harley understands this dynamic about affairs, which is why he is "adamant" that all contact end. I throw my hands up and walk away from situations where the BS does not heed this warning, because I know it will be hopeless. But, there really is great hope when contact does end for life.

p.s. a soulmate type affair is a TEENAGER affair. That is not a grown up thing.

1000W,

I bumped some threads on exposure a couple months ago but you seemed to disappear. I think, like Big K, you should find your answers on this site and in HNHN.

All affairs will need intact NC and most need exposure to OPS to achieve closure. (It's a rare exception when exposure won't/can't happen.) It seems it would help us help you if you didn't employ the 'hit and miss' approach....."HIT the MB boards with a question and then seemingly MISS the advice by not posting for several days, weeks or months."

You may have answered one of your own questions with your last post:



My H was in withdrawal for nearly 5 months after D Day #1 but I didn't know it, nor did I know about MB so I could not employ the advice you've been given since January/February. That's why I had 3 more D days and also why you might be asking your question about OW's place in WH's heart.

I don't want to offend you, but in helping you it seems you need to follow through with advice given and also by asking two questions:

* Has NC letter been written and sent? Have you got spying tools in place to ensure it's intact?

* Have you found and exposed to OPS?

Your WH will have feelings towards OW until he completes withdrawal. While you cannot control him, you can create ways to know for sure what he is doing/thinking so you can make decisions for yourself that you can control.

For me, it was music to my ears when my WH blurted out (without my asking) that OW was repulsive to him, that she was a worst liar than him -- at least he admitted his errors whereas she never has as far as we know-- and he thinks she most likely has another guy she's cheating with.

I'll help you as much as I can 1000W but it would be easier if you stick around and share how things are going more often than every few weeks or months. Not a condemnation, just a suggestion.

Ace

(edited to add specific details of last post 3 weeks ago and to note that although we were posting simultaneously, Mel and I used similar words "repulsive/revulsion" to describe how WH needs to think for you to start recovery)

Thanks everyone

Ace,

I don’t mean to disappear; most days things are okay but every now and then there is an issue that I get stuck with and I trawl the MB boards for answers and usually find things that answer my questions well enough. Today is just a particularly hard day. Yesterday was OW’s final day at work. I am 99.9% certain that NC has been in place since DDay. WH has worked from home since then. Withdrawal symptoms are evident and there has been a very tangible shift in our relationship since all WH’s cagey behaviour has stopped – now that there is nothing to hide anymore. I have full access to his phone, laptop, he has freely and of his own accord shown me emails that he has been copied on from OW.

The reason for my emotional day today is that we had another conversation about NC and closure, and WH reminded me that every day he still has to make the choice to stay in NC and that he is often really tempted to contact her for closure but doesn’t because he knows it would mean losing me and that’s not an option for him. But regardless of the pain and damage, he still feels sad at losing someone he was so close to. I know this intellectually anyway, but geez it hurts to hear it out loud. This was the last week where he could easily contact her and he didn’t and it was clearly painful for him (which just makes me want to puke!)

We followed all the advice, NC letter and exposure and I think we’re just struggling along through the usual recovery issues. Because their relationship didn’t die a natural death I just worry that every time we hit a rocky patch (and I’m sure we have a lot of those ahead!) he’s going to wish he was with her instead and then if things are bad enough…act on it.
Renewing contact now would be difficult – her new job is 2 hours away and she lives an hour away too. He has no way of contacting her now but they have mutual friends through work so if he really wanted to he could get her new number and email address.

I would so dearly love to hear the words repulsion/revulsion in the same sentence as OW but I don’t really think they ever got to see each other’s flaws so I’m not holding my breath that that will ever happen. But I sure do wish it would.

Ah, it WILL happen over time you can bet...He will see just how shameful HIS acts were and thoughts of her will only serve to remind him of that shame and therefore will make her repulsive to him-whether he saw her flaws or not-he will come to understand the fantasy nature of an affair and just how silly and unrealistic it is...That being said, what you REALLY want/need your husband to get is that NC is IMPERATIVE and WHY...You want HIM to RECOGNIZE his own weakness to OW and to be VIGILANT about it...He must truly understand why NC is the ONLY option...He must genuinely get that he can NEVER "test the waters" just to see how strong he is...That's a NO GO...

Dr. Harley explains that there will forever be a low burning flame for the OP that can reignite at any time if there is contact...Now, that does NOT mean that the FWS is forever pining for the OP, and I tell you this as a FWW...It just means that if once there was "chemistry", there likely would be "chemistry" always-it's quite logical actually...It really isn't unlike any of your ex boyfriends...You should not have contact with them either, because there was once a connection between you-one that very well could (actually likely would in the right environment), whether you recognize it or not, cause you to connect emotionally again...You want your FWH, to understand the power that addiction has over him towards the OW...When that happens, you are where you want to be...

Mrs. W

1KW,

If you haven't already got it, pick up a copy of HN/HN or better still, the newer book, Fall In Love/Stay In Love. It includes all of HN/HN and additional things not in the previous books.

As difficult as it may seem, the real key to rebuilding your R is time, but most importantly, time well spent. Total healing will come if you BOTH are working from the same manual.

That said, I agree with Ace (first time for everything <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />) that the possibility of an A rekindling is almost always present and that is why the strong recommendation of NC for life.

Mark

But there is a flaw, a huge one. She crawled into the sewer with a married man. When he recovers, this recognition will come to him. If he recovers he will grow to feel REVULSION at himself for his sleazy behavior. And this will extend to the OW. That is a sign of RECOVERY.

Stated perfectly by Mrs. W. And her words are coming from a FWS who really is recovered. This is what recovery looks like.

I can only speak for myself, but this is one area I don't agree with Dr Harley. I had a "soul mate" very emotionally attached A and I no longer carry anything for my FOM.

Maybe it's different for male WS's, but for me it is not the case at all.

It took a good 2 years before all the "feelings" were gone. I went through good, to bad and now I have reached indifference.

There was a thread on here not all that long ago about this subject. I'm a bit rushed now, but will try to find it and point you to it in a bit.

Thanks for that little bit of encouragement everyone. It helps more than you know.

For the most part I feel really positive and I am able to focus instead on the fact that our family is healthy and mostly happy and that we have so much to be grateful for. Nobody got maimed, OW didn't fall pregnant, nobody contracted a disease. Some days I am even able to see how much good could come from this - I can see the potential for personal and marital growth that might not otherwise have occurred.
Just some days the doubts and hurt infect my heart and cloud my vision.

The others are right in what they said here. I am about a year out from D-Day and I can say in my case that things finally took this turn.

In the early stages after D-Day he would defend the OW and talk about how the OW was misunderstood and lonely (trying to make me feel sorry for her I guess...) If I called her names or made any snide (but apt) comments about her morals, I was the bad person or the "b*tchy" wife.

I think things began to change when he wrote the NC letter. For the first time he sat and focused and got some clarity. In his NC letter he bluntly stated that yes he was wrong to betray me, but he was just as disappointed in her for not stopping the affair too. That she failed him as a friend by not being strong when he wasn't.

Now HE is the one who has lost all respect for her, to the point of disgust and revulsion as MelodyLane said. In fact he will no longer even use her name, he just refers to her as "that person" or other impersonal things. Amazing - we have gone from "the poor misunderstood OW" to "that tramp whose name I never want to speak/hear again" - music to the BS's ears indeed.

Note: My mistake in the early days was constantly assaulting her character, which aroused his chivalrous side and only led him to defend her. When I backed off and let him think and come to his own conclusions, the fog eventually lifted.

It is only natural for someone to defend a loved one, and if the WS thinks/believes they love the OP, you will get nowhere with insults and character assassination of the OP...and believe me, I think I probably know 200 synonyms for wh*re now, I used every one of them in those early confrontations...nothing worked except letting him come around and open his eyes to what she was/is...and now he despises her.

lifeschoice...I too have feelings of indifference towards OM, but I will FOREVER defer to the professional when it comes to NO CONTACT...I will NEVER be careless or pompous and try and test my strength, to do so would be very ignorant, not to mention heartless towards Mr. W...

For me, Dr. Harley's theory makes TONS of sense because I saw it demonstrated in my very own life...My own affair was with an Ex Boyfriend...It is very easy for me to see how that low burning flame was reignited when we had CONTACT...It's not just because of an affair that this flame can burn...it burns for ANYONE that you once shared an emotional connection with whether you were married or single...

Look up KiwiJ's threads from last April, and you will see where not believing Dr. Harley on this will get you...Kiwi's situation really smacked me upside the head and good-actually I never thanked her for that...Up until that point, Mr. W and I had planned on going to my 20th class reunion which is being held this August-OM is likely to be in attendance...When I watched "Kiwigate" unfold here, I changed my mind, we will NOT be attending this reunion or any others over the years...Kind of a bummer, I would like to have seen my old girlfriends...A consequence of my own poor choices...But really a small price to pay to keep my wonderful family intact...

Btw, I at one time shared your POV on this...I argued it and argued it right here on MB...I was so very strong, felt nothing for the OP, he makes me sick...yada, yada, yada...Actually that is/was all TRUE, but can only remain true so long as NO CONTACT is in place...ACCEPTING my own weakness and in this arena and becoming humble about it was what it took for me to get it...make sense?

Mrs. W

Onethousand,

I found the thread and see that you initially asked the question.

Are you looking for input from more people besides those who answered you?

This title is this and it's GCII

WH STILL WANTS CLOSURE WITH OW AFTER NC LETTER. ANY PEARLS OF WISDOM?

MrsW,

I agree with just about all of what Dr H has to say. I also know incredibly helpful it would have been to have found MB when we were fresh around D-day. I can see how the MB priniples work and work very well, this is just one thing for me that does not fit. I'm not knocking his principle it's just not the case for me.

I know this because I worked, very closely, with my FOM for over 2 years after I ended the A. He and his W also lived around the corner from us. Maybe it's different because our A burned out and I ended it before we were caught or slept together for that matter. I was 110% commited to making my marriage work and kept everything work related for the remainder of the time we worked together. It didn't happen often, but if FOM said something inappropriate I walked away from him. I had no interest or desire to go there again.

Neither of our spouses knew about the A until I confessed it to my H long after it was over. My H then confronted FOM telling him he knew everything. FOM was very mad and told me by telling my H I "forced" him to tell his W. My H exposed it to FOM's W in the event he didn't actually tell her. It was after the confrontation that FOM took steps to leave our employer, It was another 8 months before he actually left. He cut all ties when my H started working for the same organization I work for.

If I ran into him on the street today, I honestly would be surprised if I would feel anything for him. I didn't feel anything for him when we worked together and I didn't care one bit when he left the area. Of course like you, I would never want to test that. NC works wonders and I like the way things are now.

Edited to add:

I think it's wise you chose no to go to the reunion. I agree and would never intentionally put myself any place that FOM might be.

I'm a BS.

When I saw the title to this thread I opened it immediately because it is something that haunts me, as well, even though recovery is going well.

Trying to put my finger on what you all are saying, but it feels like mixed messages. On the one hand, thought of OP bring repulsion, revulsion, and shame. On the other hand, if you had any sort of contact, even accidental, than this "low burning flame" could ignite all over again? It seems contradictory to me. Why, if something is so harmful, would would go back to it? Why is something SO awful to SO many people, remain tempting? And if you ARE still tempted, then are you still not harboring some feeling, on some level?

This just haunts the bejeebees out of me, and admittedly so, probably because of other issues we have faced other than the actual A.


Silverwraith was talking about how she used snide remarks when talking about the OP, and her spouse' "chivalrous" side would come out. I too, use snide remarks. Who can help it? I did this the other night when we were out. FWH got this querky look on his face and asked me not to mention her anymore. We'd just come out of counselingand were revisiting some issues, events that took place during the A. Well it's difficult to have such a talk and NOT mention her, right? He said she was dead to him, and that the mention of her brought up a lot of shame. But I couldn't help wondering, in the back of my brain, if it wasn't really some "chivalrous" act. That he was somehow offended because I used some not very nice references toward her.

As I said, this one really haunts me. I sure wish it wouldn't ...

rltraveled,

I know how you feel about being haunted. In our case we have other issues too beyond the A, but it's all too easy to focus on the OP and attack them because they are a real and solid concept, unlike "issues."

I have my own theory, and it goes as follows: When you attack the OP's character, you are actually attacking your WS. After all, the OP was someone THEY chose, so you are in essence pointing out the flaws in their decision-making when you focus on the OP's less-than-stellar qualities. The OP isn't physically present (usually) to denigrate or insult, so the BS who is wallowing in pain takes out their rage on the substitute target - their WS or FWS.

This seems to backfire, at least in my experience. A truly repentant FWS is already ashamed of their actions and probably their choice of partner(s), so every time you attack the OP you get their hackles up, they get defensive, then it seems to you they are defending the OP, you get angrier, and everything spirals out of control again, leaving everyone more hurt and angrier than when it started.

The hardest lesson for me to learn was to BITE MY TONGUE when those great opportunities came up for devastating one-liners about the OW's morals or character. Instead, I let my FWH come to his own realization about her and as I mentioned, it seemed to come when he wrote the NC letter.

Every situation is different, hence there is never "one size fits all" advice. But I would suggest that if making nasty remarks about the OP only leads into the vicious cycle of further hurts and retaliation between spouses, then perhaps it is not a healthy tactic to take.

So, where do you take the anger and rightful rage against the OP? Here to this forum, or vent it constructively in other ways. I took an unconventional approach to this problem myself and perhaps it's worth starting a new thread about ways to satisfy the hunger for revenge/justice and the need to vent, but balanced with a healthy dose of safety and sanity.

SW, I agree that they probably feel in some way that they are the ones being attacked. After all, they "chose" this person to be with.

I would hope, however, that who they were then is not who they are now. If that's the case, they shouldn't feel that they have to somehow protect someone who willingly participated in trying to destroy their life.

So funny for me to think that our FWS's thought the OP's actually "cared" about them and their well being, and their children. If they did care, they would not have participated in an A. Did they really think, for instance, that each other's children were going to welcome the OP with open arms? Perhaps they thought it would all happen with time, kids are resiliant and all that malarky.

I'm a product of divorce, I would have been the first to tell them that it just doesn't work that way. I'm 46. I was 12 when my father took off with his OW. And to this day, I still hold some resentment toward him, not to mention the lifelong issues I've had to deal with.

But I guess I'm getting off track here ...

You expressed my thoughts about this exactly, Mrs. W.

Does OM hold a special place in my heart...eewwwwww, no. I get nauseous -- literally sick to my stomach -- whenever I am reminded of him.

And it didn't take me very long...several months, maybe...to get to that point.

Lori

Lifeschoice,

I guess FWH and I are still stuck at the NC issues. We have definitely agreed that there will be NC. FWH struggles because although he understands the importance of NC, he still has a very strong desire for closure and has to actively choose not to give in to the urge to contact her to say his final goodbyes on a daily basis.
My issue with closure is that it reminds me that his heart has been, and to a large extent still is, with someone else, and it really upsets me that this might be true for the rest of our time together.
I guess I’m looking for reassurance that I’m not going to spend the rest of my marriage in the shadow of a fantasy. That at some point he might see some flaws in her and as a result his feelings for her will finally rot and die!