What exactly is the difference between wayward and withdrawn? Which is worse?

Steve-

A 'wayward' spouse is one who is already 'stepping out' of the marriage in some fashion. They're having emotional needs met by someone OTHER than their spouse.

A 'withdrawn' spouse is one who may have begun distancing from the marriage, but who hasn't started allowing others to meet those emotional needs. And withdrawl means something ele when you're talking about the end of the affair.

My story is over on the recovery forum...you might take a look at it for some possible insight to some of the issues you could be facing. My wife met someone via Everquest that she was all set to leave me for...even though they'd never met in person. I know of a BUNCH of marriages that have been affected by infidelity caused via MMORPG's.

Do a search to find out how to enable logs in WoW. See if there's a way for you to track what she's doing there. You need to know what she's hiding from you in order to figure out how to deal with it.

Here's the thing...she's keeping SECRETS from you. It's NOT privacy...it's SECRECY. Because she's doing something that she's preventing you from knowing actively. And those secrets will likely destroy your marriage if they continue unchecked

Look up a hardware keylogger to connect to the computer. Also...does she communicate with anyone OUTSIDE of the game? Like using MSN, yahoo, etc...? If so, get her passwords and start logging and tracking what she's doing there. Start checking her cell phone usage too. Normally wayward communication will START in game, and likely remain there...but they pretty much always spill over into other means of communication. Take a look at the "Spying 101" thread that's around here for other ways you can track some of this down. A digital voice recorder placed in the same room as the computer/phone may allow you to at least hear HER side of conversations that might give you a clue to what's really going on.

How long has this secrecy been going on? Do YOU play WoW with her? If so, perhaps you can persuade someone who games with ya'll to keep an wye on what's going on.

It's entirely possible that she's addicted to online gaming as well. That may be your first step...removing that from the equation.

Owl,
Thanks,
I can't look at any of her logs. She has passwords on her game on her computer and on yahoo. I recorded her once about 3 or 4 years ago and all I heard was her talking bad about me like she hated me. And that it would not be the same between her and some guy on there. I should of kept recording her but I got mad and asked about it. She said it was just game stuff and that she was talking to a group of people and not one guy.
I don't play WOW. I play D&D online. So at what point do I move this thread over to the divorcing forum? I have anxiety and I can't help it I ask her stuff and show her her behaviors on here. She does not admit anything. She says that she has a group of friends and that is it and that it is just me and my being jealous that drives her crazy. Could this be possible and there is nothing there? She says she doesn't talk about me anymore since that time. Her secrecy started about 4 to 6 years ago. It really seems to be over.

What bothers me most is that the few times I was all ready for divorce she came around a little just enough to keep me hoping but no more. Then when I become attached she is cold again. I brought this up to her and she didn't admit it and said don't worry it won't happen again. Could I be entirely wrong all together about evrything and that it is just my actions that are the problem?

You move to the divorce section when you've decided that you're no longer interested in trying to rebuild your marriage and you file for divorce.

Right now, you're FIRST step needs to be to decide what YOU WANT from here. Do you want to recover your marriage? Or do you want to divorce?

Both are going to take a game plan, and hard work. Recovery will mean that you'll have to begin plan A as outlined here on this site. You'll need to get proof of the affair(s)/adulterous behavior, you'll need to confront her, expose the affair to anyone who would have influence on your wife to end it, and to begin improving yourself and working hard to meet her EN's.

The divorce route is also hard...but for that, you'll need to talk with someone who knows more about it than me.

So...first step...what's your goal here?

Steve --

There is a great article called the "Walk-away Wife"
I'll try to find it and post it for you.

Basically your wife is in a very withdrawn state from you.
She may have given up on the marriage, and is just biding her time.

She may also be depressed. That would account for her lack of ambition and lethargy.

I was very withdrawn from my husband. I had given up on having the type of marriage I wanted. I was waiting until the children were grown -- I even had the year that I was going to leave him (2010 BTW) I was just going to tolerate things until then.

Then we got a computer. I started playing games online. There is a whole community of people out there -- almost like high school. You can be whoever you want to be. All of a sudden I was getting ego-strokes and admiration I had been CRAVING! How addictive is that???

Meanwhile, my husband was continuing to ignore me. Completely into his own sports and activities. I had given up on begging him to be a part of our family. I did things with the kids. He did his things.

I stopped wanting sex with him. His very presence began annoying me. He'd tell me he was going to play softball with his buddies for the weekend....I'd cheerfully say GREAT! (He thought this was GOOD...all the other guys had wives who would ****** about them being gone....)

It wasn't long before a very preditory OM began flirting with me. It started as an emotional affair. Online flirting became telephone calls. Then we planned a meeting.
It continued on from there.

****

So back to your situation.

Sure, you can put on a keylogger and catch her in the act. And make this all about her affair.

But honestly it sounds like you were a lousy husband, and maybe some of your attention should be on fixing THAT.

That is what Plan A is all about.
Fix yourself. Commit to it, and demonstrate real changes for a set amount of time. 4 months at least.

In the meantime, definitely find out what you are up against. I suspect at the very least she is having an emotional affair online. In addition to the keylogger, put a recorder on your home phone. Does she use a cell phone?

Control your emotions. Realize that you have 50% responsibility towards this marital environment and fix what you can.

Owl,
I want to fix the marriage but she says she don't want to be married at all. I have been getting on her and that pushed her over the edge. I told her just tell me the truth. She won't except for little hints like "Right now I am doing nothing wrong." But says she plans on seeing nobody and is just tired of me telling her what to do. I can prove nothing and won't be able to. I'm not doing good. I have no money for a lawyer or couseling or even to cover the house by myself. It is hard to go to one job let alone get another. The doctor switched me from effexor to lexapro. I could date but want nobody else. Her mind seems made up. I was fixing myself but I keep getting attached and being vulnerable. Then I bug her. I have to read all the marriage builders concepts again. If she moves I won't see her. I keep asking her to just move in the appartment upstairs we rent out. I don't think she will. She had this idea before. She don't want her needs met by me. She says she doesn't have needs anymore and is not getting them met by anyone.
Lexxy,
I did a keylogger once and she found it now she has passwords and will probably move soon anyway. I was lousy. It all started with the game in 1999. We used to talk on the phone for hours when I was at work or she would come and eat lunch with me. Then the phone calls got shorter and shorter and all I heard was typing in the background. I got more and more resentful and we argued more about it. She just played more. I was lazy and selfish. I don't think she has a cell phone anymore. Not sure how to put a recorder on the phone. She might probably be gone soon anyway. It doesn't seem like I have a chance. If she reads these she would be wise to me also. I will try to fix myself again. Everybody tells me I'm a fool to trust her. Who knows if she has a cell phone or not. She also plays mind games with me. It's like she wants me to hate her.

OK...first thing. You need to focus on YOUR goal...YOUR decisions...not hers.

Seriously...re-read that first sentence you just replied to me with. "I want to fix the marriage but she..." What you should have said was "I want to fix the marriage."

That's step one. Set your goals for what you want.

Step two...make a list of the things that are preventing you from reaching that goal.

Step three...add to your list plans and actions to overcome those obstacles. If there are things that you don't know how to overcome, you need to get outside help to help you figure out how to overcome them. That's why you need a marriage counselor.

You say you don't have money for a counselor. I understand. But you also said that she's going to leave anyway, and you don't have the means to cover the house. It sounds to me like divorce/seperation is going to cost you a lot more than getting a counselor. FIND A WAY. (I don't mean doing something illegal...but there must be something you can do to cut a cost and raise some money? Heck...GET RID OF THE INTERNET IN YOUR HOME! There's a good start towards ending her gaming addiction and saving money. Tell her you can't afford it any more.)

You sound to me like you let her make the decisions and set the boundaries in your relationship. Some of that is fine, even healthy. There usually is a leader and follower in most relationships. BUT...one person shouldn't be running the whole show. Just the tone of your posts makes it appears as though you feel you have no control, no say so in how your life runs.

Time for that to change. I've heard it on here many times, and it's very true..."A woman cannot be in love with a man she doesn't respect." Think about it. If you let her make ALL the choices, lead the whole house and you have no say in it...where's the respect? If you don't stick up for APPROPRIATE boundaries in your marriage, why should she respect you?

Try looking on this site for information on DR H's radio show, and calling into it sometime. It's free, and should give you the chance to get some advice from a real professional.

So, you've got YOUR goal of saving the marriage, and you've outlined some of the obstacles to reaching the goal. Now, read up on plan A, plan B, and all the other reading on this site, and use those to start getting a plan to overcoming those obstacles. Go get a copy of "Surviving an Affair", "His Needs, Her Needs", and "Not Just Friends"...read up on those. My money is that you'll see your wife in those pages...just like I saw mine. The more you describe your situation, the more red flags I see to indicate that your wife is emotionally attached to someone else. An emotional affair...like my wife had. And YES, those can be completely over the internet.

Time to step up and take charge.

Owl,
MY goal now is to do the 4 months of fixing me and not worry about her. It is getting me nowhere anyway. It will be hard. I will make the list. I will try to see the counselor but definatly can't afford to evry week. I will look for a second job. Getting rid of the internet is not an option, she won't and will leave first and I need to come here. She will borrow money from her Dad to pay it and I need to be able to come here and other places I go. I have contact with people through here I need to keep.

Yes we have always had a power struggle of both trying to run the show. It caused friction a lot. I want to have negotiation from now in but for this and her to agree I have no choice now. I will worry about me. At least the chores and bills are even now for the first time ever. I might be alone soon and none of that will matter. Sex stopped about 2 to 3 months ago. I did stick up and tell her to do half the house work and bills because when she went in withdrawl she quit doing anything. Now it's fair. I will set bounderies and have to a point but like I said I could be alone tomorow here. I can'r prove an EA and make an [censored] out of myself bringing it up. I can't take charge she has one foot out the door and when gone I will never know anything. I will work on me now. Owl so you are divorced right? Does she still have a EA? Do you and her talk still? Just curious. Thanks for your help. Also wife says she just has a group of friends and all of them are married and all know each other. The only good thing I can say is that she did offer for me to join the group before.

Oh ya, And Owl thank you. This helps me a lot. I thought you were divorced? I read your thread. You guys are still together right?


Lexxy are you still married?

SA-

Actually, we're recovered. I must not have all the details in my thread...but I got no contact finally established about a month and a half after d-day. The actual EA ended somewhere prior to that, and her withdrawl took about 3 weeks.

We're doing FAR better now than ever. We even still play online games some...but it's NOTHING at all like it used to be. Now it's a hobby...a part time hobby...and not an obsession. And her boundaries are pretty iron clad compared to where they were before.

I think you're going to have to do something similar to what I did...the EA was tied to the gaming. Once I got the EA ended, it also ended her game addiction. I think you're going to find that she's similarily addicted to both the gaming AND possibly someone(s) in game who are meeting her emotional needs as well.

I think you need to prepare yourself to lay down some pretty harsh boundaries on what you're willing to accept in your marriage. She's NOT going to willingly give up the addiction(s) unless something forces her to. It's going to be UGLY...no matter what steps you take.

Owl I'm sorry I read a few people threads and mixed them up. I guess you guys really came to the edge with the plane ticket and all. I'm glad you worked it out. I always thought d-day meant divorce day. I have been reading so much I can't take it all in especially in my state of mind. Do you play online games together or separate? I think my wife"s best friend on there is female. Could she just be getting emotional needs from her through friendship and that's all? There are guys also as friends. Can someone get emotional needs through friendship and never go over the line? I know I have to accept the gaming or she's out of here and I need her to pay half the bills as she is now. If it is just her as a roommate I need at least that for now. I can't pay the house and bills alone. Even if I get another job I will be needing another vehicle soon and can't borrow money from anyone. I am working on me and can't put energy into spying on her if I'm going to do this. Somewhere along the line I lost sight of working on me and changed it to tying to figure out what she's doing again. The questions I ask above whay do you think?

Steve-

D-day typically refers to the day that you 'discover' the affair, or find the proof of it, or that your WS confesses.

The question about how we play(ed) online games is an interesting one. She started playing around the same time she lost her job (couldn't work due to limited recovery from a broken ankle, coupled with her just not pursuing going back because she was becoming addicted to the online game)...I'd been playing for about a month prior. Because she was then a SAHM, she quickly levelled past anything I could play and so we started playing the same game at the same time, but not 'together'. This went on for several months, and her addiction became a tremendous strain on our family and marriage. She was logging 16+ hours/day in game, and things were horrible. I confronted her about it, and got her to back off the amount of time in game, but we still continued to play seperately for a good while. It wasn't until she'd begun the very start of her EA that we began to play together...and looking back, I think she was trying to 'justify' her EA, and she also was trying to keep me from suspecting anything.

Now...today...we play a completely different game, and it's nowhere near the same amount of game time.Its no longer an addiction, it's an occasional hobby. And..we play TOGETHER. Additionally, her boundaries are iron clad...she learned a lot from what we went through.

On your situation...it sounds to me like you really have some prioritization to do here. Do you want a wife and a marriage, or a roomate to pay your bills?!?!

If you want to recover/fix your marriage, it's going to take EFFORT and WORK on your part. If it's not worth your effort, then why worry about any of this? I assume that you want to recover/rebuild your marriage since you've posted here...if that's the case, then you need to take the steps to make that happen.

If you are more worried about keeping your wife around so that she can cover the bills and such, that's got nothing to do with marriage building, and I can't help you there.

I'm hoping some of the 'experts' here can chime in and provide you some feedback as well.

Owl,
My number one priority is to have my wife back as a wife. She says she can't be what I want her to be. I would take a roommate over nothing at all. But she is about to bail on me. Her family found her an appartment. She will not acknowledge she is addicted and says it doesn't affect me. It does though a lot. She used to turn to me with all her problems before the game. She won't see it. I am going to work on me but it looks like I will be alone to do it. It looks like it's too far gone at this point. This is beyond withdrawl. I thought we would be together forever. I was bad and maybe drove her to play more but she will not admit this was my number 1 problem with her for 8 years. She won't even admit that last year she was the one bugging me for sex. She just thinks she's always been unhappy. I don't know if she moves out if she will realize anything or like it better. She's sick of me and it would take a miracle now to fix it. I am confused and am not thinking right I know. This is the hardest thing I've had to deal with and am not dealing well. I have been abusive in ways and selfish and I don't think I will get a chance to make it up to her. Any attempt to spy on her will be the last straw for her and won't work. I think she's at the last straw already. Thanks for your time though. I will keep you updated. And I know I shouldn't be saying "but she" if I'm fixing me it is just hard and I have little or nothing to work with. People must think I'm bad for avoiding my posts so much. Everyone that has responded thank you and I am trying I'm just hurt and confused and the ensomnia doesn't help.

SA-

OK...I'm at a loss here as far as advice to give you. First you tell me:

Then you say:

OK...so if she's already got an apartment lined up, if she's already set to bail, if she's already "beyond withdrawl"...what have you got to lose by spying?!?! It sounds to me like she's already gone...but you're afraid of pushing her further? Again...what have you got to lose at this point?

If you don't do SOMETHING to change the situation, what do you thinks going to happen?

Next question...say it IS an affair of some kind (which is still sounds like to me, and I've BEEN there)...and you get the proof. Have you thought about what exposure steps you would take? Who would it be effective to expose to? It sounds like her family is enabling her behavior...if you did find proof of an emotional affair, what would their response be?

Seriously...you need to get your PLAN together...NOW. It doesn't sound like you've got any time to waste with indecision or inactivity. Have you read the books I've suggested? Read up on plan A, plan B? Started identifying her emotional needs, and working on ways to meet them? I know its TOUGH to do when she's not letting you 'in'...but a start of it is better than nothing.

I'm going to throw out a 'yell for help' to see if I can get others to post some advice to you as well.

Buy Spector Pro keylogging software. Hack into her email and games. Find out if OM exists. If he does tell you wife you know and that she needs to end it. If she refuses, expose to her family, confront OM (for interet EAs, he may not know she's married), and get software that will block out access to certain sites on the internet. You WW is an ADDICT, and you need to take stops to help her with her addiction, not just placate her and be afraid of pissing her off.

I think that this in this case....

you should let her move out....

here's my concerns and opinion...

you both appear to be trapped in a cycle of abuse
and the concern is that because it is known to you..
it is more comfortable...


you speak of driving her
you speak of being abusive...

and we know that she thinks nothing of going on line and slamming you in to the ground....

it's soooo unbeleivably unhealthy....
yet it has become the norm...

and when the such abnormal traits become the norm to the point that they are acceptable and tolerable....

it is time to pull way way back....

and become healthy independant of such behaviors....

until you are healthy...

living as an honorable man...in your actions....

then and only then will you be able to get on her level to address these issues in a way that are productive....


your statement of wanting to be with your wife even if means as room-mates is flag....

about yourself....


you both exist in an emotionally chaotic realm...

it's what you both have become....

you need the tools to ground your own autonomy

you need to get healthy
physically and emotionally

to wage this battle and be successful....

what is her financial plan..
is she expecting you to pay for her...

ARK

SA, I have to echo what Owl has asked...except I'm not nearly as nice a person as Owl is. You seem terrified of your wife's anger and that mystifies me. People get over being mad. Your marriage will NOT get over an adultery or Internet addiction just by hoping the problems will go away.

Face it. She's detaching herself from you more all the time, abusing you verbally, and betraying the marriage on a daily basis. Frankly, pardner, are you going to do anything about this or are you just looking for an exit strategy that minimizes your emotional loss?

If you want to fight, you'll find lots of folks out here who'll be your support group. But we can't do anything until you make the decision. Are you up to it? Let us know what you decide, SA. Let us know soon, because you're wasting valuable time if you want to recover your marriage.

Owl, Thanks for trying to help me. She's onto me spying and I don't see a way I can without her finding out and I can't afford the house payments and bills myself. I know it's frustrating when I don't listen but if I thought there was a way to get info on her I would. I tried a keylogger and she found it right away before. She says it's my behavior and not trusting her why she wants divorce. If I could prove an affair to her Dad that would do the trick. I just think it's immpossible to prove. She is staying now out of guilt that I can't pay everything and buy a new vehicle I need. And that guilt is running out. I am trying to meet her emotional needs however she really doesn't want to be around me. After work we talk a little and watch a little tv and that is a small step up. I will work with what I have while I can but she wants divorce.

Ark, I don't abuse her now that stopped months ago after our last big fight. All I do now is worry and maybe question her. I told her Dad my concerns and I think it got her mad. No her Dad is helping her financially and she doesn't expect me to support her anymore. She just wants the amount we agreed apon for me to keep the house and she said I can pay her in payments.

Longhorn, I want to recover the marriage but she made her choice. I just want to be able to support myself if I have to and I don't make enough. I would try to spy but her computer knowledge dwarfs mine. All I can do now is be nice and hope she stays long enough for me to work out other issues I have before she leaves. I don't want to lose her but it's not up to me. I will consider all your guys words and thanks for putting up with me.

Well...your plan of "All I can do now is be nice and hope she stays long enough for me to work out other issues I have before she leaves." is doomed to failure. It's probably the single best method I can think of to ensure that your marriage doesn't have a chance to recover in this situation. If that's your plan...your best bet right now is to go get an attorney and get your ducks in a row before she does...because I can pretty much assure you that when she makes her move, that's exactly what she's going to do to you.

I've done all I could. I've got no more advice for you. Good luck.

Thanks for trying owl. I will try to meet her emotional needs while I can. That's all I can do. There is a chance that it is only an addiction and I have been wrong about anythings else. She blames the addiction on me. If I knew who the other guy was he would get confronted nomatter what state he is in and she knows that and is probably protecting him.