I was told by my W that she had feelings for someone she works with just over a month ago. I have asked what I've done wrong and she keeps saying nothing its her. Since she told me I have looked at everything I do and we do. I've been working a lot to pay the bills so I sold my car to pay off our debts. I have re-homed our dog so the house is cleaner. I have cleaned the house so she doesn't have to do it and I've done a lot of household chores which I didn't have time for when I was at work. I have been there to pick the kids up or drop them off from school and I even took them away. We planned to go to Florida and the kids still think they are going but if we split up that won't happen. After everything I done she says you just don't get it. It got to the point that I moved into my brother's apartment to give her space. This was a nightmare. I missed the kids and her so I kept phoning not just to hear the kids but to speak to her. I allowed her to go and see this other man when I had the kids overnight but she didn't seem to care too much what time she come home. She was spotted by Friends of mine which was very embarrassing but she didn't apologies. I eventually took the boys away camping with my brothers. Before I went I went to pick the boys up and she was very happy and asked that I allow her to speak to the kids while we were away. The first time I call she doesn't reply. I left messages and phone her mother. Eventually she sent a text saying sorry for not speaking to her boys. I flipped and told her she couldn't see them again as I was so angry. I phoned her boss and told her she is supposedly moving the guy out as he is only the security guard. I also told the boys what was going on on my return. She flipped and said we had agreed to speak to them together. But as she made to intention of looking at our relationship for me and the boys I told them the truth and not her version of thinks. She says the boys mean everything to her and they come first but she still won't try to fix things for their sake. I have moved back in for the kids sake and she is sleeping on the settee. She has said that this can't go on so I have said that this is my home and I'm not moving into a bedsit if I've done nothing wrong. I have said that she can go with this guy and I will keep the kids 3 days a week when I'm not at work. I said she can have them for the rest and take them with her. The other guys lives with parents and has his own child at weekends. I have read his needs and her needs but my wife won't read it. I'm trying not to raise my voice and keep telling her I love. I've told her its an addiction and we can get through it together. She just says that she loves this man and this is without her even having any intimacy with him. Both her parents and siblings don't agree with what she is doing but she doesn't care about them either. We were always close and lots of people commented on just how happy we were. I really need some help.

Sorry you are here, but it's as good a place as you could find to be. First of all, purchase and read "Surviving an Affair". It's also by Dr. Willard Harley, founder of this website.

Until you get the book, read all you can about infidelity on this website. Affairs are like addictions, and they are so similar, you'll see another version of your story with every thread you read.

Read all about plan A.

Stop telling her you love her all the time.

Know that she lies about nearly everything.

Stay at home, sleep in your bed. She had the affair...let her sleep where she wants.

Stick with a mantra..."we are married, and I believe in our marriage, and will do everything I can to save it".

You might want to consider copy/pasting your post over on General Questions II. It is far busier than this forum. Also, don't be discouraged by the lack of "traffic", as the forums are much slower on weekends.

Read all you can, as knowledge is power. Do some snooping and gather all the evidence you can get, but don't get caught. Hire a PI if necessary. Check cell phone records, credit card records, purchase and install a keylogger on your computer, and consider buying a voice activated recorder for your land line. The more evidence you have, the less she can deny.

This is a long and rocky road, so hunker down, and prepare yourself for a long haul.

Also, for us older readers, click "edit" on your above thread and break it in to paragraphs so it's easier to read.

Best wishes,
SD

Time to get a backbone. Don't watch the kids so she can go see the other man. Let her know that you are not giving up on the marriage, and will do what it takes to save it.

Expose the affair to the other man's (I should say boy) parents. Tell them that their son is breaking up a family.

Then tell her that you are not moving out, and if anyone leaves, it will be HER, without the kids.

I have spoken to this other guy and told him to back off but to no avail. He told me he had to move from his other position as the company went bust, which is why he is at my wife's office. I've found out today the company still exist, so tomorrow I will do some more investigation as to why he left his original place of work.

I'm going to get some legal advice tomorrow so that I don't let my wife get her own way and make it more difficult. She keeps putting the kids have no home argument at me but I've said you created this you need to sort it out, so don't make me feel guilty about the kids its all her doing. She has made her bed she has to lie in it.

I've looked at Plan A but she isn't willing to listen to me.

You can expose the affair at work. That sometimes works. Check out Plan A again. Plan A is something YOU do, it doesn't require her cooperation.

I'm not sure I fully understand Plan A. I've order the book ' surviving an affair' but I live in the UK and it may take weeks to get here, time is running out I think.

Here is one of Ark's posts about Plan A.

FIRST thing is that I strongly strongly believe that before you even begin plan A...that you make a time limit for it...with plans to go to Plan B...
that for plan b to be effective you must have a good plan a...and for plan a to be effective and have the stamina to hang in there and give so unconditionally you must have a time frame in mind for plan b.....

Plan A is ALL about the assumption that the WS is still in the affair or in contact...
this is your map to navigating those treacherous waters...

it also is your big moment to diffuse all the excuses WS are prone to use to justify their behavior and choices....

and more you can diffuse their blame...

the bs is "always depressed"
the bs "always wants to talk about relationships"
the bs "is controlling"
the bs "yells all the time"
etc....

the more you remove those things...and the more you remove yourself from any powerstruggles of insanse things...

he said she said..
etc...
the more your disengage from arguements..again the more they have look at their own actions and choices....

here's what I told familymatters..One of the biggest mistakes that people make in plan A is that they begin to meet their spouses needs....and still hold on to great expectations of reward and reinforcement from their spouse....

plan a is ALL about learning to give and do for a bit with NO expectation of ANYTHING in return...

the giving of self and gifts with no strings attached....

I have quoted the silly add campaign for some perfume in the 70's here before...but I think it fits....

It went like this ...

"if you want to get someones attention...
whisper."..

plan a is like a whisper of behaviors and actions...
plan a should not be huge demonstrative expressions of love and romance...

WS are incapable of accepting those things...
part of that is that their actions at the time of continuing an affair are NOT loving and lovable...
and they KNOW it..
sometimes they know it better than their BS...who still want to use words like love to them...

so they get resentful
or shut down
or depressed..
or it solidifies their belief that they are so "bad" or so far gone...it feeds into their excuse and defense of unworthiness...

plan a is about filling the home with love and light in other ways...

it about an upbeat environment without the deep doom cloud hanging overhead..

it is about a home filled with children's activities and joy when applicable and it is about inviting and drawing the wS into those times and activities....

and even when they refuse to come in to the joy...the joy goes on without them...

Here's another one -


Plan A is not (repeat NOT) about making the WS happy, or feeling good.

Plan A is NOT, contrary to popular (and very incorrect opinion), about "making yourself a better person," or "working on yourself."

Plan A is ALL ABOUT the straying spouse. In Willard Harely's ever brilliant words, Plan A is a stategy to end the affair and to entice the straying spouse to reconsider the marriage.

So, it has several elements that should be done at the same time.

* First is to eliminate LBers and to meet needs as best you can... recognizing that the unfaithful mate may not allow the betrayed partner to meet needs.
* Second is to CONFRONT the unfaithful partner with what you know. Doing so (of course) in a way that is respectful and about you... how you feel, how you are affected by the affair.
* Third is to expose the affair to the scrutiny of the world. The lover's spouse or s/o, coworkers, family, friends, church family, children, etc.

ALL OF THAT is Plan A. And it should be done as much as possible simultaneously. (If you don't believe me call the radio show Mondays and Thursdays at 1pm Central Time and ask Dr. Harley for yourself.)

Plan A must have a deadline. It's called Plan "A" because there is a second step... aptly named Plan "B." Willard Harley suggests a max of 6 months for men and 3 months for women before going to the next step. If Plan A hasn't worked in that time, it's not going to.

Now, Plan B IS all about you, the betrayed partner. It's about getting you out of and away from a situation that is horribly painful and, let's face it, degrading. Plan B is taking the stance that enough is enough and that although you want the marriage to succeed you will no longer be part of a triangle. And that you care enough about the marriage to know that you need to protect the love you still have for your partner.

Now, nowhere in any of that is the idea that the faithful partner needs to make life easy and comfy for the straying spouse!! No need to bend over backwards to be a doormat. Certainly no need to be afraid to trigger guilt!! Good god!! They should feel guilty!!!
________________________________________

And another -

Ok, so you guys do realize that I tend to get wordy and talk WAYYYYY too much and you STILL want me to do this, right? I'm gonna touch on a lotta stuff here. I'd shied away from posting lately, but I've actually been ASKED my opinion!! You guys don't know what a mind-field you've set off here!!

Now, I'm not particularly wise and wonderful, but I can share with you my experiences and feelings, but that's all. And sometimes those feelings don't follow the norm, so be forewarned.

OK, history first, I guess. One Monday, last spring, Robert walked in after work. He leaned over to kiss me and I said "Hi, Honey, I love you." He said, "Hi. I love you, too, but not like I used to - we need to talk." That was my last kiss. And the night of the "I love you but not IN love with you stuff." Also the last "I love you" in any form.

Within a week, he didn't love me at all, couldn't stand the sight of me, our marriage had been a mistake and he wished he had never married me. Knew our relationship had been a mistake since the beginning (TEN YEARS???) and it never should have happened. Kristin (my daughter from my first marriage) didn't care for him at all and never would. His family couldn't stand us and we had ruined his life. He couldn't count the number of times he had wished I had been in an accident and died so that he could be released from these "pits of ******". We had NEVER had a good time, never really cared for each other like we should - he couldn't even remember the fun times. And on and on....All this was news to me! We were the couple that most people envied! We had had a hard couple of years, Mom's cancer, Papa's death, but I had NO idea. I wanted to die.

THEN, he told me about PT. She made him feel WONDERFUL. He finally knew what true love really was and he wanted to spend the rest of his life with her. He adored her 3 year old and she loved him. I had NEVER made him feel this way, we were never meant to be, etc......you know the stuff, right? The knife turned. We've all been there.

So, I came here and lurked. And cried. And couldn't sleep, 30 pounds in 30 days, all the standard stuff. One month later, he left to be with her.

When he left, I didn't know where he was. He didn't contact us, not even Kristin. He spent some time visiting his mom, but eventually, cut away from them as well. She was my greatest strength through this mess. Now, don't get me wrong, she welcomed PT into her home, the whole family did. They were afraid they'd lose Robert if they didn't. His sister called me and told me that Robert was finally happy and I should "move on". (Man, I hate those words, what DO they really mean???) But Mom called me daily once she found out what was going on and tried to spy as much as possible. We've gotten closer than I ever imagined we could be.

PT and Robert set up house. He already had her moved into a new place b/f he left. They opened joint bank accounts, he brought her HERE when I wasn't here to get some of his things, set her up with OUR doctor (she supposedly didn't have one), took her all around OUR town (they lived an hour away) as his girlfriend. Told everyone he ran into that we were through. In VA, you have to be separated for 6 months to get divorced and he said as soon as that time was over, we were done. Taught Leah (PT's daughter) to call him "Daddy". (That hurt worse than ANYTHING, believe it or not.) No financial support whatsoever. Took two vehicles so PT could have one. He called infrequently - when he needed something (until the last month), came by rarely, usually to pick up something or hunt. Didn't give me his address or phone number. Was cold and mean to me - wouldn't talk to Kristin at all hardly (except for once or twice during the whole time.) He was someone I didn't even know.

The first time I posted here, Deb responded first...."You'll be ok, you CAN get through this, there are things you can do." Ok, so there was NO way she could know..I mean, she could NEVER have hurt like I did, loved like I did, been treated as horribly as I was. Ok, I was wrong. She DID know! And she was right - so was everyone else.

I owe my friends here my life. They calmed me down. Showed me I wasn't alone. Cried with me, took deep breaths with me, got me through way too many sleepless nights, laughed with me, and kicked me in the butt and outta feeling sorry for myself when I needed it. I think that was the most important thing of all. And helped me find something to laugh at in the midst of all this mess. I soon discovered I was looking forward to waking every morning.

So, like she said, the rawness eased - the hurt found it's place, continuous sorta, but in it's place. I started paying attention to what people were trying to teach me, got rid of my stubborness and self-righeousness. Ordered books, read, read, read! And started thinking.

You know, Robert couldn't come up with one specific thing about me as a wife that was bad. Even said so himself. But, once I got rid of the old ideas and opened my mind, I COULD!!! I mean, I had worked my butt off to be a good wife, but..... You've heard me say before that he broke the vow of fidelity, but I broke a lot of them too - unknowingly. I wasn't the best PERSON I could be and therefore, not the best wife either.

And I thought about him too. I'd known this man for fifteen years - through good times and what I THOUGHT were bad times (this mess sorta changes your perspective!!) This was not him...to abandon us, leave us to starve. He and Kristin were "joined at the hip". To say now that he never really loved her, just cared for her? Something was definitely not right. This was NOT him....not from my experience, or that of his family and friends (who he had now begun to turn his back on.) Sooo.....

Well, after reading a few books on the nature of affairs, looking realistically at my contributions to the state of our marriage, listening to my betrayer friends on this site, I started to understand. It took away the sting of his words and actions. Didn't erase it - just took the edge off. Through Harley's books and others, I learned about marriages and affairs. From Phil McGraw, I learned about myself. I was insatiable. My basic personality is to DO something. Now, I had a bit of understanding, AND something I could do! I got stronger and stronger. Sure, there were bad days. Thanksgiving and New Years come to mind, as well as one notable weekend w/ two love-busting letters. (BTW, I found out that he was thinking hard about coming home at that point and my letters talked him right out of it! The power of a love buster!! I'm glad - I wasn't where I needed to be yet!) As I grew stronger, I felt freer. I realized that I had the power. He didn't keep me going, I realized it was up to me to do that, and to keep HIM going, too! Even though he didn't know it.

First decision. Do I love my husband? Yup, more than life itself - not the things he's doing now, but the man he truly is inside. Second. Do I want my marriage back? Nope - but I want a better one. Third - Am I ready to work for it? Absolutely!! I asked myself these three questions every single day. Every morning, before I got out of bed, I asked myself these questions. Same answer.

So I loved him. And respected and believed in the man I KNEW was inside. I learned to look PAST this behavior and into the soul of the man that I was convinced was still there. And tried to understand the torture he was going through - even though he didn't THINK he was. I knew now, right? I took the good little signs and they sustained my love. I blew off the bad stuff as part of the addiction. So it wouldn't KILL my love. I believed in him and lit a candle (still do, for us and all my friends) and every time I passed it, I told him I loved him and I believed in him. The coolest part was I was also beginning to believe in ME!! TNT taught me that, the power of words and belief.

Since I couldn't talk to him, I wrote a letter to him once a week and sent it to his mom's. Pop would deliver it to work for me. They were light, funny, flirty, news from home - like he was away from camp and homesick!! Works of art that I worked hard on at first, then seemed to come more easily. Somewhere in each letter, when appropriate, I compared something that I was telling him with a good memory of ours (and then this happened and you know it was just like when we....)and laughed about it. I ended each one with "I love you and I will always believe in you." I never took off my rings. He commented on that once - asked why I was wearing them - really angry sounding. I told him I loved him, I was married to him and I would always be married to him in my heart. He looked annoyed at first, looked like he was gonna yell at me and then got quiet for a minute. Then, with a strange look on his face, he said quietly "Thank you, Lori." I laughed and flirted when I saw him. Once or twice, I teared up, but not often. I saved that for when I was alone. At the end of each of the few visits, I hugged him goodbye and said "I love you." I got nothing except "You DO know I'm getting a divorce and marrying PT - no matter what. And even if I didn't marry her, I'll never come back." I just told him to do what he needed to do, but I'd always love him. I never discussed PT with him, never mentioned her name. I never discussed us or our marriage. If he brought it up, I'd just say I loved him and I wanted what would make him happy. No more. He'd just look at me like I had lost my mind.

At first it was "pretending". But I was working on me too, with the help of my favorite book by Phil McGraw. And I wasn't sitting around waiting. I continued to love him, but I had a daughter to raise and life was happening. I knew I couldn't support us and keep this house. She couldn't stay in private school. And I didn't have much time. I knew my job would be ending, just didn't know when. So I enrolled her in public school, started working on the house to sell it. Went to HS football games, shopping with friends, movies with the kids, whatever. I enjoyed more days than I didn't. And grew stronger. So, soon, I didn't have to pretend. During this time, I forgave him. Don't remember when or how, just all of a sudden, realized that I wasn't angry and didn't hold anything against him. Robert had held marriage sacred, had always been there for me, no matter what. Had NO respect whatsoever for any SOB who would stray and was very verbal about it. For a good, kind and decent man - the most wonderful man I ever knew to turn his back on everything that had ever been important to him - something was wrong. And I couldn't love him and not forgive him for something that took him over so completely. I learned to laugh. I began sleeping, I began to live. But I didn't stop loving him. I think THAT'S moving on.

Around Dec. he started calling a bit more, bogus reasons, favors he needed. Still talking divorce. But finally communicating a bit. I just listened. Never talked about us. See, now I wasn't "playing" him to get him back. I was REALLY his friend! You know? I cared about him, loved him and wanted what was best for him. Like a real friend would. So, it was getting easier most of the time. Of course, I still wanted him back, but, I wasn't obsessing anymore. He called one day at work, wanted the Dr.'s phone number and wound up getting really nasty with me. I patiently listened and let him talk, no matter what he said, and eventually discovered that he had had a seizure, the first in 20 years, the Friday b/f. Once I thought about it and the way I know my husband is, I realized he could've looked the phone number up in the directory. He needed to talk - he was scared. And, for him, scared turns into angry. And I was the target. Why? Because I was the one he could trust. And I was there for him. I found out later, I was right. Without even realizing it, when he got scared, he turned to me.

In January, I got the letter telling me he was about to file. It was time to "get it over with." And 4 days later, he asked to come home. We took a month to make the transition and see each other. He still had not said "I love you." That came during that month. So did our first conversations about us since that very first week. I found out later that he thought he came home b/c he decided he SHOULD. Now, it didn't hurt that PT had been a B**** and I had become someone he enjoyed being around. He told his family he really "liked" me now - I was still Lori, but "more somehow". And I really liked me too - a whole lot more than I did before. I was very proud of myself for what I was doing - for my marriage and for me personally. That shines through, I think. It seems that he had been doing a lot of thinking - for practically the whole time. And then, one day, he heard a song, and it stuck in his head, reminding him of committment and all that stuff. He pushed it away and wrote that letter - fighting the thoughts. Well, on his way over here on Saturday, he heard it again. And he decided. He couldn't "move on" until he had finished this. He was coming over to fix my dryer for me (the FIRST thing he had ever offered to do) and wound up taking me for a ride and asking to come home. No real romance there, guys.

The first few weeks were unsettling. PT pulled hard and so did his emotions. There's so much guilt and other stuff. He said he wanted to move out on day 3. He tested me constantly to see if I was real and if my love was real. And, then, very slowly, he became strong. And we began to fall in love. And now, he tells me he loves me forever, loved me even when he didn't love me (that makes sense to me for some reason) and that he's 100% "in love" with me (I hate THAT phrase, too, but I'll take it from him! ) He also says he admires my courage, respects me for respecting him, even when I had no reason to, and that my believing in him made him strong. I don't take credit for all that, but it sure feels good to hear it.

Ok, now for opinions. Don't blast me, ok? I never felt humiliated or shamed. We made mistakes and bad judgements, but...stuff happens. I had small spurts of anger - at specific THINGS he did and said, but anger has never come easily for me - I believe it's simply another way of showing hurt, so I never really had to deal with the slow burning continuous anger - I just let myself hurt and dealt with it. Tootrusting is right - we can't force them. THEY have to figure it out on their own. All we can do is be there and love them - if we choose to.... and that's what it is - a choice. We're not doormats or any such nonsense. We're strong and independent and coping with a difficult situation, thank you. And this is NOT for wimps! I can't think of anything less doormatty (like that word? ) than standing strong for what you believe in in the face of all the nonsense. But I'd be there for my child and I decided I'd sure as ****** be there for my husband as long as he'd let me - and sometimes, even when he wouldn't. A lot of times it would've been a lot easier to run - For my short time, I chose the other path.

Robert didn't decide "all of a sudden". All those months of Plan A (I just do NOT have a Plan B personality!) were slowly building impressions that were eating away at his subconscious. When the time was right, a trigger (the song) brought them to the surface. I'm not so sure that he really did it to "do the right thing." I think that's the excuse for doing what he wanted to do, know what I mean? I mean, his love just grew too quickly to have just been "doing the right thing." He didn't change his mind quickly. Everything was slowing bringing him back to reality - we just couldn't see it. PT was being a B*****. I was being an angel. The fog was wearing thin. The letter was a last grasp to hang on to the "I'll never go back" thing. Fighting back against those nagging thoughts. I found out later that every time he left here, no matter how awful he was to me, he went home and was MORE awful to PT - or quiet and sullen. Then, he'd go out and do something WONDERFUL for her.....trying to hold on, know what I mean? Remember the little Dutch boy? A tiny hole in a dam is NOT a big thing. But that little bit of water, seeping through, DOES eventually break it down! That's Plan A. That's what happened to Robert, I think and so does his mom. It didn't happen all of a sudden, the damn dam just finally broke against the consistant gentle force of the water!!! (I just LOVE analogies - even corny ones!)

OK, warned you this would be long and I don't even know if I've helped at all. The saddest part is that it WAS longer....I actually pared it down a bit! TNT summed it up better than me.

Ok, so that's the closest I can come to a nutshell version. If I missed a question, let me know. I'll try NOT to be so wordy the next time around.

Good luck to you.

Love and prayers,

Lori

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Hi Believer,

How can I move to plan B if my WS refuses to leave because of the kids?