Hi, NW.

Quote:
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was thinking of buying DB tonight - is this book good to, or should I rely soley on SAA?
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I think the latest version of DB is Divorce Remedy. You can read it, and there are some good points in it, but it is far too passive in its approach in my opinion.

SAA is good, "NOT Just Friends" by Shirley Glass, "Torn Asunder" by Dave Carder and "Love Must Be Tough" by James Dobson are all good as well and compliment Dr. Harley's work.

How are you fixed for snooping?

Don't forget to eat. This is going to take a while to work through.

Don't give in to fear, it will only make the pain worse.

On the gifts, just hang on to them or toss them, whatever suits you right now.

The first rule for cheating is that ALL CHEATERS LIE. You need to repeat that to yourself until it becomes the filter that you pass all communication with your wayward wife through before it reaches your brain.

If she says they are not in touch and she just needs the space, then they are in touch and she needs the privacy to continue the affair.

Go read Pepperband's "Carrot and Stick" approach to Plan A.

Pick your battles. Your wife will try HARD to bait you into a fight. Don't do it. Walk off, recite poetry to her, do something other than return the volley. Remember, you can't control her - don't try.

Keep us posted with her goings, comings and doings. Especially pass along the strange stuff, it is often the most telling about what she is really up to.

Dig up all the details you can about the other man's work, parents, etc. You will also want to expose the affair to your wife's parents. Just the facts, no antics.

You can do this.

God bless,
Gimble

Hi, NW.

An additional thought regarding the in-house separation. She is welcome to sleep in another bed, but I don't think you should agree to any other "terms" so that there is no sense of agreement between you that you are separated.

If you agree to a separation, then she will use it as a pass to further the affair. Again, don't argue, just a simple "NO" will do.

Just so you know, ANYTHING YOU DO, she can and at some point likely WILL, use as an excuse to blame her actions, both current and future, on you. Don't fall apart when it happens.

God bless,
Gimble

You might enjoy reading this link:

For the poor lost WS who need to find themselves

It may not be the case with your WW, but sometimes the affair partners get off on the feeling of it being them against the world and it isn't unusual for the affair to go more underground. My FWH had a secret cell phone he kept hidden in his truck. It had a red leather case.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

As you've already been told, usually a separation is wanted so that they can carry on their affair away from constant scrutiny...at least in their foggy minds. That is another way they can justify having less guilt...they can pretend that they are single.

I hope you are an involved dad. I would not want her to take your child with her should she actually separate.

Update:

She wants two nights where we are in the house together but seperate, one where she comes home after work and hanging out with family and friends, one where I come home late after hanging out with friends, and one where we spend the evening together the whole time.

The weekends are the same - one together, one apart.

I went downstairs to read a book and came back up and she was crying.

She said she felt sorry for me because I still had hope.

I do not know what to do anymore <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

She clearly does not want to be married - how can I convince someone to work on a marriage they feel is already dead <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Bad evening - sorry all <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Nowwhat74

Update:

Next day not any better - I have decided to stop worrying - time to work on me and let her flail about. I am done asking her to do things, and I am done trying to make the home perfect for her - everything I do makes her feel guilty.

I am done. I am sick of being walked over. No more talk - action time.

I have been speaking to the OM wife every day - see below for the email she sent my wife (names replaced with accepted MB acronyms)-

WW,

Just a note to let you know that I spoke with your husband this morning. Wow, what a nice guy. You are lucky that he is willing to put up with your unfaithfulness.

I, on the other hand have less patience for it. After going through Breast Cancer and a mastectomy and chemo therapy and loosing all of my hair I have learned that I am one tough woman who deserves the best in life!! And after loosing my father last year as well, I also realize that life is too short!! Thanks for helping my husband get through his rough times. Perhaps you should have spent some more time with your OWN husband and child and less with someone else's. After 3 kids and 15 years you have left me in quandary as to what to do. So, go home tonight and give your husband a big kiss and thank him for standing by your side because OM is not that fortunate.

Good luck to you and as you go through life consider how many lives you are destroying along the way!!

With absolutely no respect,

OM wife

I wish I was that strong....

Nowwhat74

Hi, NW.

Okay, so your wife is acting as predicted. Are you really going to man up and do the stuff you need to do, or are you going to flail?

On the separation. Agree to NOTHING. If she wants to leave the house, you let her go, you keep the kid. Document everything she does. She isn't being a good mother right now, and it will get worse. She may try to force you to leave the house. Don't do it unless there is a court order. If she files false claims of abuse, have your documentation and bail money ready.

Retain a lawyer, get their advice. Close all joint credit cards and joint bank accounts. Separate your finances. Do that today.

Expose to her parents today.

It will get nasty before it gets better.

Are you ready to rock and roll?

God bless,
Gimble

Well, I am at wit's end. Found several more lies (they text and that was not lying because I asked if they spoke - WTF - she is like a 4 year old, she drove him from Hotel to Airport last Sunday when she said she was going to moms - that was not a lie because she DID see her mom...*rolls eyes*).

She can't do anything with me because she feels guilty (she says she does not like being with me because she does not want to be there), so Plan A is impossible - and Plan B will just give her her wishes - no contact with me and living alone.

I have a meeting with an attorney Wednesday (ironically, that is our 9th Anniversary!!! Yeha!!!!). I am thinking of filing this week...I know that this is supposed to be hard work, but when she is convinced we are not meant to be together and not willing to not communicate with him, how can anything ever improve - she is not willing to try, and no matter how hard I try, if she is not willing to try I cannot make it work alone.

Thanks for listening to my rambling....

Nowwhat74

Hi, NW.

Quote:
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Well, I am at wit's end. Found several more lies (they text and that was not lying because I asked if they spoke - WTF - she is like a 4 year old, she drove him from Hotel to Airport last Sunday when she said she was going to moms - that was not a lie because she DID see her mom...*rolls eyes*).

She can't do anything with me because she feels guilty (she says she does not like being with me because she does not want to be there), so Plan A is impossible - and Plan B will just give her her wishes - no contact with me and living alone.

I have a meeting with an attorney Wednesday (ironically, that is our 9th Anniversary!!! Yeha!!!!). I am thinking of filing this week...I know that this is supposed to be hard work, but when she is convinced we are not meant to be together and not willing to not communicate with him, how can anything ever improve - she is not willing to try, and no matter how hard I try, if she is not willing to try I cannot make it work alone.

Thanks for listening to my rambling....

Nowwhat74
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All cheaters lie, NW. Don't expect the truth and you won't be disappointed. Truth is the exception to the rule for now.

She feels guilty being with you because she feels that she is being unfaithful to the other man and because you remind her of a time in her life when she had better morals.

I am glad that you have a meeting set up with your attorney. Getting all the logistics dealt with will leave you time to concentrate on a plan to recover your marriage, or if not, leave you in a good tactical position to end it.

As for what you can do alone, you can become the person you need or want to be, both potentially in this relationship, or in a future one. You call "done" when you have had enough. Your choice, your time frame. You can work the plans outlined here and have a chance of success, you can work your own plan, or you can toss the whole thing and start over.

One thing is for sure, you need to decide soon what approach you will take. Waffling just makes it hurt more.

God bless,
Gimble

NW,

You have been great advice from Gimble and others but there is clearly something YOU don't understand and you need to.

Plan A will NOT end the affair 90% of the time. Plan A is about planting seeds and nuturing them for when the A does end. It shows the WS two things. You do take their comments seriously with regard to your failures in the marriage and will act on them, and secondly that you do love them and you are offering them a chance to come home. Path back so to speak.

Keep up a good plan A, no matter what she says keep it up. You want her feeling guilty, and in conflict. The, next thing you need to do is keep an eye on your love bank. When you start to feel it slipping dangerously low, it is time for plan B. You don't want the LB empty when you go to plan B or there will be nothing left to recover and that takes HARD WORK.

Plan B is also NOT to end the A or affect the WS. IT is to slow the loss of LB from you. This whole approach is predicated on the FACT that most A's end, and when they end you will have an opportunity to rebuild your marriage. But, you love for her must survive this affair.

As for her not wanting to be with you, don't worry about it one bit. This is her in the "fog" of the affair and it is ALWAYS like this. They ALWAYS say what your W is saying. It is truly amazing that all WS must read from the same script. In fact, of all of the things I have learned on this site in over 8 years of reading here, the most SHOCKING is the consistency of the statements. It is truly remarkable.

So see the lawyer and understand your options with regard to plan B, start reading up on plan B and prepare, but give plan A some more time. You are planting seeds my friend and both plan A and B come with a "path back to the marriage" and many WS will take it when the A is over. That is why exposure is sooooo important to this process. A's don't do well in sunlight.

Must go, but please listen to Gimble and others here. They are giving you great advice.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks, JL.

I had missed his comments about Plan A/B.

Gimble

Gimble/ Just Learning,

Thank you for the comments - I misunderstood Plan A - I thought it WORKED 90% of the time, not the other way around...

One question about Plan B - is it a legal seperation or one where you agree to live seperate - the reason I ask is that I do not see how I could maintain custody of our son because the only thing she is doing wrong is having an affair - will a court really rule her as unfit due to that?

UPDATE: Even MORE confusing now - confronted her about the contact via texting, said I was sick of the lies, and she said she is sick of lying (she really was one of the most honest people I had met before the A.) SHE suggested weekly joint counseling and attempting to fix this and said we should try for 3 months - ironically, that is how long I planned to Plan A. She also said she would write a NC letter and end all contact - the only thing she won't do is quit her job.

SO now I do not know what to think - is she feeling guilty and wants to really try, is she stalling for some fiendish plan and needs more time, who knows <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I will Plan A during this time - Plan B will be waiting - August 1 will be the beginning of Plan B...

Thanks again for your help!!

Nowwhat74

Question: she will not change her cell phone nor will she write a NC letter. I have requested her to do both and she has refused. I do not want to DEMAND she do for fear of LB - OTOH, it is important to me that she take these two steps.

I think I communicate better when I write vs. talk, so I wrote her this letter - please critique!

*****WW,

It appears that sometimes I can better express my thoughts when written rather than spoken.

It is VERY important to me that you change your cell phone number.

I understand it will be a pain for your friends and family. I understand your grandma has speed dial set to the current number. And I know it will be a pain for you to get everyone your new number. But you not changing your number is a threat to me.

If you change your cell phone number, it says several things to me:

1) You are serious about no contact - by you leaving the number as it is, you are leaving the door open for him to call/text you - I know you say that you will not answer, but you have only had no contact for 9 days. What happens if his number pops up on June 3rd? The temptation may be too great, and we will have wasted a month of therapy and growth and working together to fix our marriage.

2) It will help rebuild trust - you have promised me that you will not contact him. He has not made the same promise to me. The ONLY way he could get your cell phone number is if you give it to him. If I know he has not called your new number, I know you have not told him the number. Knowing you did not give him your new cell phone number will help me regain some of the trust that I have lost.

3) You want us to work on our marriage - it is a very positive step in closing off outside distractions and allowing us to focus on "us."

Obviously, the opposite would be true of the above if you do not change your number - it makes me wonder if you still want him to contact you, even if you do not pick up the phone, it makes me wonder how serious you are about fixing our problems, and it makes me wonder if I could truly trust you.

Similarily, writing a handwritten note declaring that you do not want him to contact you is crucial to me.

1) It will provide you with a bit of closure.

2) Your verbal request to not have contact was ignored – he sent you a text message after you had already told him not to contact you.

****

I do not know how to end it - any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Nowwhat74

Hi, Nowwhat.

Here is where you will have to take my advice with a grain of salt.

I prefer a VERY direct approach. Others will likely advise you to use a more attractive approach.

An example of my approach; "Wife, I have every intention of working out our marital difficulties with you, provided that you demonstrate your good intentions as well. In my mind, that includes whatever actions it takes to preclude any contact between you and other man. Two of those actions would be a no-contact letter and the changing of your cell phone number. What do you plan to do?"

If she refuses, then the affair is likely still on, only deeper underground, or she is simply not committed to working on the marriage. At least you will know the truth.

If the cell phone is in your name, then I would have it turned off without warning.

God bless,
Gimble

Gimble,

Unfortunately, the phone is in her name, and I cannot change her number - she has to be the one that changes the number (I already tried doing it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />).

I will consider using your approach tonight - it is a VERY weird day seeing as today is our 9 Year Anniversary!

Nowwhat74

NW74,

U have been doing good. It is hard but you have started to set your pattern. Listen to Gimble, JL and others. They know their stuff. Read JL's thread again about the plans so you know where you stand and where you need to be. It will eventually fall into place.

Know yourself 1st. I call it identifying one's M and personal boundaries.

OM's is a jerk. His W is strong and she has to be.

Here is where the caution is:

If OM w/b free, you may expect one of them to make the A aggressive again. Know this and be prepared how you will act and react when it does.

Also, please realize that no matter what you do, the WS will hate you in some fashion. You do as she asks, she will hate you, you don't do as she asks, she will hate you....see the pattern? It is quite predictable.

That is where you as a BS can plan. Know that the WS will hate you no matter what you do (i.e. give her separate rooms, stay out of the house on certain days, etc.)..... so what should you do?

Do what is best for you and your family. Know she will hate it but you know it is best so do it with no regrets. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

When she spews hate, let her know you realize the WS in her hates her family and you don't so that is why she is spewing.....then tell her to turn her head and spew in another direction. LOL!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> (a little reverse babble humor - <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ).

take care,
L.

UPDATE: Today is our 9th Wedding Anniversary - we went out for dinner and, unfortunately, discussion went to the relationship - I should have stopped it, but I did not. I figured I would LB all I could tonight to get what I wanted - the new cell # and the NC letter. Well, after arguing and LBing for 2 hours, she has a new cell # and I have a letter to put in the mail tomorrow - I have 3 months to make up for tonight - I think it was worth it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I also got my Xanax and AD filled today, so hopefully I will better handle our situations in the future!

Thanks again!

Nowwhat74

NW wrote:
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Well, after arguing and LBing for 2 hours, she has a new cell # and I have a letter to put in the mail tomorrow - I have 3 months to make up for tonight - I think it was worth it
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That doesn't sound like love busting, rather a successful negotiation <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Good deal.

Gimble

UPDATE:

Things are never as good as they seem - the letter was confiscated during the night, so I cannot mail it - she is having second thoughts about the letter.

Question: I do not have SAA with me - if the spouse is not in a reconciling mood, unlike Kevin who was with Lee and who did write a no contact letter, does Dr.H STILL recommend a letter to be written by the WW to th OM even if she does not mean the words? (i.e. I know my wife does not think it was a mistake right now, and she still thinks they are meant to be - they have only not had contact for 9 days so far) In otherwords, did Sue write Greg a NC letter? I cannot remember.

How hard should I push this point - I am worried she will send him an email or text saying "Ignore the letter you get," and that what I am asking her to do will only push her farther away.

Please advise.

Nowwhat74

Hi, NW.

I am not surprised.

She needs to send the letter, but most importantly, she needs to mean it, even if it is just a choice, and not the way she feels.

I think you need to let her know how disappointed you are in her uncertainty, and the fact that she has broken her word to you.

Regardless, you can't force unless you are simply tired of the whole thing and decide to kick her out because of her indecision.

As for her breaking "no-contact", that is beyond your control as well. You can, however, decide now what you will do should that happen. Consequences.

God bless,
Gimble

She says she does not want contact and understands how it will hurt our attempt at fixing our marriage, she does not, as of right now, believe it was a mistake because she still has feelings for him.

I will let her write the letter without the mistake part - it is more important to be happy (at least she said no contact) than right (she should say it is a mistake).

Thanks again Gimble!

Nowwhat74