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All you gun nuts answer me this: Why won't you apply the same logic to providing sex ed and birth control for your kids? Hmmmm? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Huh?? (Mortarman scatches his head in confusion) Owning and firing a firearm is a lawful act in certain circumstances. A firearm is a tool...that is all. Sexual relations to anyone except between a husband and wife is illegal in Virginia. Why would I teach them to break the law?? And who said I wasnt providing my kid sex ed (I do that...not the school!!!). I also believe my kids are smart enough and have enough self respect to abstain from sex. They are not animals. Oh, because it'll "promote" sexual promiscuity? Yet teaching them how to use guns won't promote their non-lawful use?
WAT Teaching my kids how to use guns and when to use them teaches them the safe use of firearms in the right situations. I taught a lot of "kids" in the Army how to kill people and break their stuff. Doesnt mean they came back here and opened fire in the town square!
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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One more note...I have an analogy for all of those people who want just the police to be armed and for us to allow them to protect us.
What if this idiot had brought gasoline in and set the building on fire? Wanna ban gasoline from kids? Afterall, it is highly combustible!
Or even better...what if the building is on fire, but instead of teaching my kids how to escape or fight the fire, they just sit there balled up under their desks waiting for the firefighters to rescue them?
The first responsibility for safety is the individual person. Never abdicate that responsibility to anyone!
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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Salutes to MM!!! Agree with you 100% my friend!!!
I also grew up where boys went hunting after school...Had gunracks in their trucks...Heck, some had bumper stickers that read "You'll Have To Pry My Gun From My Cold Dead Fingers"...These kids were TRAINED from a very young age...My brother and all of his friends got BB guns for Christmas around the ages of 7 or 8...I grew up with hunting rifles in our coat closet...All of my friends did...NOBODY ever played with a gun...We RESPECTED guns, rules and laws, because we were TAUGHT to...
Our daughter attended a private preschool where parents scolded little boys for pretending their hands were "guns"...Guns were to be a BIG secret...When they tested our DD to be able to attend this school (at age 3), I'll never forget what transpired...They asked her the question, "What is something that you can shoot", our DD said "a gun"...The administrator giving the test frowned, looked at us and said "OR BASKETS"...OH PUHLEASE!!! GIMME A BREAK...How 'bout we live in REALITY???
Mrs. W
FWW ~ 47 ~ MeFBH ~ 50 ~ MrWonderingDD ~ 17 Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered
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Had any of those kids who lined up in that classroom (cooperating so nicely in their own murder) instead pulled out a weapon he/she was familiar with, trained to handle and proficient in its use…well, there’d be one more crazy guy dead on the floor waiting for the cops to arrive. This is disgusting. I can still find no reports that anybody lined up 2 be executed. Rather, a number of people acted heroically. Un42nately, they're dead, and so their stories have yet 2 be told. Please, lets respect the victims enough 2 refrain from making accusations that they aided their own murderer, when all the facts aren't yet in. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> -ol' 2long
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Salutes to MM!!! Agree with you 100% my friend!!!
I also grew up where boys went hunting after school...Had gunracks in their trucks...Heck, some had bumper stickers that read "You'll Have To Pry My Gun From My Cold Dead Fingers"...These kids were TRAINED from a very young age...My brother and all of his friends got BB guns for Christmas around the ages of 7 or 8...I grew up with hunting rifles in our coat closet...All of my friends did...NOBODY ever played with a gun...We RESPECTED guns, rules and laws, because we were TAUGHT to...
Our daughter attended a private preschool where parents scolded little boys for pretending their hands were "guns"...Guns were to be a BIG secret...When they tested our DD to be able to attend this school (at age 3), I'll never forget what transpired...They asked her the question, "What is something that you can shoot", our DD said "a gun"...The administrator giving the test frowned, looked at us and said "OR BASKETS"...OH PUHLEASE!!! GIMME A BREAK...How 'bout we live in REALITY???
Mrs. W You Georgia redneck!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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Had any of those kids who lined up in that classroom (cooperating so nicely in their own murder) instead pulled out a weapon he/she was familiar with, trained to handle and proficient in its use…well, there’d be one more crazy guy dead on the floor waiting for the cops to arrive. This is disgusting. I can still find no reports that anybody lined up 2 be executed. Rather, a number of people acted heroically. Un42nately, they're dead, and so their stories have yet 2 be told. Please, lets respect the victims enough 2 refrain from making accusations that they aided their own murderer, when all the facts aren't yet in. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> -ol' 2long 2Long...all day yesterday, they did state that many were lined up execution style. That was the reports. Today, we are now hearing about some heros, like one of the professors. I am glad to hear that!
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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YUP...Card Carryin', Dyed in the Wool!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Mrs. W
FWW ~ 47 ~ MeFBH ~ 50 ~ MrWonderingDD ~ 17 Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered
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Well, actually there ARE reports exactly that DID happen, but you have a point that I should wait until the whole story is in. Reporters are universally recognized for getting things wrong, aren’t they?
So, for the students in this event, substitute the people who sat in their booths in the MacDonalds in San Ysidro, California back in the 80s waiting for a crazed gunman to walk down the aisle and kill them. Or, you can substitute the Luby’s restaurant in my parent’s hometown of Killeen, Texas where patrons cowered under their tables waiting for another lunatic to get around to shooting them. Alternately, you can use the lessons of Columbine, in Boulder, Colorado, where it is also well established that people pretended two crazies couldn’t see them under their desks while those two idiots walked up and down the library killing innocent boys and girls.
I used the image of those college students waiting in line to make a point, not to accuse without full knowledge of what went on at Virginia Tech. The point is, if you wait for a killer to get around to killing you, it only makes it easier for the killer and doesn’t benefit those who wait one bit.
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THE crazed Virginia Tech killer forced a class of youngsters to line up before blasting them execution-style, one by one.
The only survivor escaped by pretending to be dead, lying among the bloody corpses of his pals.
The nightmare unfolded in the final classroom the maniac visited as he stalked the huge campus.
Student David Jenkins, 20, said: “I spoke to another student who told me the shooter came in the room — every single person was shot, killed and on the ground.
“He laid on the ground and played dead. He was OK.” Not sure why the link isn't working... By EMILY SMITH in Virginia and ANTHONY FRANCE and BRIAN FLYNN April 17, 2007
Last edited by Marshmallow; 04/17/07 01:01 PM.
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When Jesus returns! Not before then. Will he be teaching self-defense classes in BF Goodrich sandals? -ol' 2long Nah. Last I heard, He is coming back with a sword in His hand. Anybody care 2 speculate on the efficacy of a sword against a Glock 9mm? Why didn't God just "poof" the gunman away? -ol' 2long
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Thought I'd let the Founding Fathers weigh in on this mess: Benjamin Franklin: Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Nov 11 1755, from the Pennsylvania Assembly's reply to the Governor of Pennsylvania.) Thomas Jefferson: "The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes....Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." Thomas Jefferson's "Commonplace Book," 1774-1776, quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria in Chapter 40 of "On Crimes and Punishment", 1764. John Adams: "Arms in the hands of citizens may be used at individual discretion in private self defense." (A defense of the Constitution of the US) William Pitt: "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." (Nov. 18, 1783) Richard Henry Lee, Virginia delegate to the Continental Congress, Initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights: "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them." Patrick Henry: "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined...The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun." Thomas Paine: "...arms...discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. ...Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived the use of them." Noah Webster: "Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority...the Constitution was made to guard against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters." Thomas Jefferson: "On every occasion...[of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed." (June 12 1823, Letter to William Johnson) "The thing that separates the American Christian from every other person on earth is the fact that he would rather die on his feet, than live on his knees!" George Washington And how about the Bible's view on this?? Jesus said, "But now whoever has a purse or a bag, must take it and whoever does not have a sword must sell his cloak and buy one." (Luke 22:36) "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his house, his possessions are safe." (Luke 11:21) (Note, the text later states that a stronger or better armed criminal could overpower a weaker or poorly armed victim) Seems like the Founding Fathers and God just don't get it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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THE crazed Virginia Tech killer forced a class of youngsters to line up before blasting them execution-style, one by one.
The only survivor escaped by pretending to be dead, lying among the bloody corpses of his pals.
The nightmare unfolded in the final classroom the maniac visited as he stalked the huge campus.
Student David Jenkins, 20, said: “I spoke to another student who told me the shooter came in the room — every single person was shot, killed and on the ground.
“He laid on the ground and played dead. He was OK.” Not sure why the link isn't working... By EMILY SMITH in Virginia and ANTHONY FRANCE and BRIAN FLYNN April 17, 2007 If you copy the whole line and paste it, it works. Interesting. A UK paper. -ol' 2long
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The gunman was shooting down the hall and they were barricaded in their rooms. He unloaded a whole clip into the door and was trying to demolish the door. Then he reloaded a whole clip and shot again and then he continued down the hall. – This was in Norris. One of my good girlfriends, her sorority “little sister” got shot in the back. A friend was in a room that the shooter made it into. He lined everybody up execution style. Our friend fell down and kind of played possum. He’s the only one that made it out. — That’s what he’s saying. ,2933,266421,00.html
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I can't believe I'm getting in here but isn't all the "armed hero" talk kind of a romantic fantasy? If it was a factor - and there are plenty of concealed carry laws making it possible - I would think we'd hear about it more often.
I don't think I've ever seen an issue where statistics were used more dishonestly and frivolously by both sides.
John Lott included. My doubts about this man's credibility begin and end with his affiliation: AEI - a refuge for people with stupid ideas.
GC
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Question, pertaining 2 something we do know about:
Why did this guy file the serial numbers off his guns? He clearly bought them legally (at least the 9mm, I heard). Did he initially plan 2 survive the attack on his GF? And his plans went awry?
How 'bout the Anti-depressants? I sure know how goofy I got one day when I drank while taking prozac (a s2pid thing 2 have done, but I did some 2pid things back then). Imagine if this guy doped himself up 2 be numb when confronting his GF, and went downhill from there?
Okay. I'm through speculating.
-ol' 2long
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I keep a high velocity semi-automatic paintball gun in my truck. Will that help?
I think lots of people carrying guns around is on the whole more dangerous than protective. For example, there have been many cases where the bearer has it taken away and is shot with his/her own gun. Even highly trained police. A lot.
And, it tends to lower the threshold of action over time. This is from a published psychological study. Packing heat slowly drives many people to be more inclined to use it, eventually. I'd hate to be shot because someone, highly trained in how to aim and fire or not, mistakenly thought I deserved killing.
I'd bet this shooter's guns were legal and he used them because he was trained in how to use them, and he had them. Simple as that.
OTOH, I have been trained to use and have used, guns of many kinds since I was nine. (I killed my first cougar at 13. It was stalking me.) I think a properly trained bearer in the right place could indeed have removed this guy in short order.
But so might have a small handful of heroes without guns.
ed: I talked to DS last night about this. What would he do to be safe, protect himself? He reminded me that he is working to become an Eagle Scout. He expected of himself that he would not go down without a fight and he would do what he could to protect others first.
Good enough for me. Now I just have to make sure he does know how to fight smartly.
Back to paintball. It does train.
With prayers, for the victims and their families (and God help me, for the shooter and his family too)
Last edited by Aphelion; 04/17/07 01:20 PM.
"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan
"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky
WS: They are who they are.
When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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No, it's not a fantasy. Since "right to carry" laws were enacted in Florida, for instance, the murder rate has decreased 52%. That's not a stat that can be used dishonestly...except by ignoring it. Yeah, that's most definitely dishonest.
Also, recall the incident a few years ago when a single armed (off-duty) policeman in a middle school disarmed a kid with a gun who was going to kill everyone he could? Are the children he saved a "fantasy?"
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I keep a high velocity semi-automatic paintball gun in my truck. Will that help?
I think lots of people carrying guns around is on the whole more dangerous than protective. For example, there have been many cases where the bearer has it taken away and is shot with his/her own gun. Even highly trained police. A lot. Nah! it doesnt happen that often...especially in comparison with the number of times a firearms is legally used to stop a crime! And, it tends to lower the threshold of action over time. This is from a published psychological study. Packing heat slowly drives many people to be more inclined to use it, eventually. I'd hate to be shot because someone, highly trained in how to aim and fire or not, mistakenly thought I deserved killing. The facts don't support this! Take a look at the statistics of the number of people with concealed carry permits that used their weapons illegally in a crime. It doesnt support the psychological study!! I'd bet this shooter's guns were legal and he used them because he was trained in how to use them, and he had them. Simple as that. They were legal. And he used them because he was a deranged, evil little man. Simple as that! OTOH, I have been trained to use and have used, guns of many kinds since I was nine. (I killed my first cougar at 13. It was stalking me.) I think a properly trained bearer in the right place could indeed have removed this guy in short order.
But so might have a small handful of heroes without guns. Maybe!
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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No, it's not a fantasy. Since "right to carry" laws were enacted in Florida, for instance, the murder rate has decreased 52%. That's not a stat that can be used dishonestly...except by ignoring it. Yeah, that's most definitely dishonest.
Also, recall the incident a few years ago when a single armed (off-duty) policeman in a middle school disarmed a kid with a gun who was going to kill everyone he could? Are the children he saved a "fantasy?" No, but any mental mas2rbation about an armed s2dent putting a stop 2 this massacre before it started is, because it didn't happen. -ol' 2long
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