I'm writing this because I need help. I need serious help. I've been a long time poster here, long time lurker..but I'm not feeling right about many things. I've changed my alias..I don't want people to know my real MB identity. My W strayed late 06'. Long story short, I was able to end her affair, I exposed, I plan A'd..I won my wife back. I don't know if I want it any more. I regret the day I won her back. If I had a time machine, I would go back..and when she said "I want a divorce.." I should have just said "Ok, let's remain friends during this. We have a daughter. No hard feelings. We had some good times and thanks for your time and sharing part of your life with me." I wish I would've told her that, but I didn't. I followed the BS script. I mourned deeply for weeks. I was able to eventually pull myself out of the grief and take action...and I followed the MB plan. I got her back. She wasn't worth it.

I'm trying to sabatoge our marriage. I'm opening doors for her to reconnect with OP. I'm giving to her and condoning her vices that caused our rift in the first place. I'm trying to turn back time and recreate the affair environment. I don't have the courage to tell her I want out. I don't have the courage to tell her she makes me the most miserable person in the world. I do not feel any intimacy with her at all. I feel like she is still wayward anyway. I feel like I'm being used. I feel like I am being held in the "Position" of husband so she gets her Financial and Domestic needs met..but never accepting the SF or conversation. We never talk about us. She never shares her true feelings with me. Ever. I feel like I'm not the same person I was before she strayed. I feel like a totally different man. I have already grieved her death and would feel little/no sadness if we split.

She comes from a divorce-raddled family. Divorce in her family is all too common. For 10 years anyway I've always felt that her family thinks of me as a "Temporary Fixture." I come from a two-parent family. My folks had some hard times - but they knew how to make it last, they're now sharing their golden years together, still loving each other.

I cannot see myself with my wife in old age. After doing much research, I believe my wife has BPD. She's very controlling, very manipulating. For the last 10 years - everytime I try to share a dissapointment or concern with her .. I always walk away feeling guilty, like I did something wrong. Her common response to my concerns are "I never do anything good enough" or "Everything I do for you isn't good enough is it!?" But I've thought long and hard about these kind of statements. In reality .. she does NOTHING to BE good enough. I'm in no way a perfectionist. I'm not a class "A" personality .. I don't demand much and I'm very easy going. My wife became irritated and angry that I expressed my desire to "TALK" to her..to reconnect with her. I would like to love her..I would like to share with her..but she retorted with "You never do what I want to do!" What did she want to do? She wanted to watch TV or play computer games. She tells me she loves me every day.

I have no more sense of intimacy with this woman. I've even told her a few months ago "I don't feel close to you anymore." We went to marriage counseling about 4 times. She asked me one day "So, do you think we're ok without the marriage counseling?" -- a month prior I expressed my dissatisfaction about things in our relationship that I wish would change. She's done NOTHING to express my concerns..she's taken no action. I've always believed that I'd be a failure as a father .. and as a man, if I gave up my family. I don't know anymore. I'm very conflicted and I feel a little crazy..actually very unstable. I've entertained thoughts of suicide. I've been looking for ather woman to fall into, I feel so deprived. I'm a money-maker and a husband..a housemate..and a co-parent to her..but that's it. I've asked her for more, but it stops there. I express these things ..these feelings..these needs to her and I get back "Nothing I do is good enough for you.." ..I interpret that as "Shut up, get back in your place..and don't complain." ..

She says to me "I'm so afraid your going to find another women.." But SHE DOES NOTHING and I'm thinking "Well your NOT DOING ANYTHING!!!" What's wrong with this picture? This woman is selfish in my mind and I hate her. I feel trapped. If another woman gave me her undivided attention and acted remotely interested in me I would pounce. I feel guilty for having these thoughts as I learned from my parents, my church, my God to be faithful..to forsake all others. I don't know up from down anymore. This woman refuses to meet my needs. That's my only conclusion. I've even told her .."We've both read HNHN, I had the disadvantage of NOT KNOWING what needs you had that I wasn't meeting. You now have the benefit of knowing what needs I have that are not being met..I'm communicating to you clearly that you're not meeting my needs..I feel no Intimacy with you..but I'd like to!" And she DOES NOTHING, and when I mention it again .. she's accusatory and complains that I "Never think anything is good enough .. " .. I walk away thinking "Is that really me? Am I dissatisfied in Everything that she does? Have I ever NOT thanked her for gestures of kindness and doing things for me??" I still think she's unfaithful .. I don't know..she's so good at hiding things and manipulating the truth. I know I'm terribly unhappy. I don't want to cheat. I don't want to divorce. I'm stuck. Counseling is a joke. She's been through counseling since she was a teenager. Her parents nasty divorce, her drug use as a teen, she was molested as a teen, she knows how to fool counselors. She knows how to make you feel guilty for ever expressing any type of feelings whatsoever.

I don't know what to do. Am I to live this way? Is this what life is about? I can't see myself with her. I'm 30 years old. I'm still young. So many people have it better. So many men have women who truly love them .. who are honest, and sincere, and are willing to share their innermost self, and do not manipulate or lie incessantly...The grass is looking beautiful from where I am -- I've tried to mow my own lawn - but it won't wash. I'm terribly depressed.

I have seen my own recovery, and that of many other BS follow predictable steps. The steps or stages may be similar but the timelines are very different. Also, once the full set has been run through, stages can be selected in seemigly random fashion.


1.- Devastation.
Fear, shock, confusion, existential pain. Loss of hopes, dreams and every assumption about God and man.
D-day and just afterwards. Don't want to go there again, ever.

2.- Appeasement.
OK, I've been dealt a [email]cr@p[/email] hand, but if she will at least stay home SOME of mt life support systems may at least function a bit.

3.- Indignation.
F'k that ! I'm stronger now and i WILL NOT suck up any more pain than I have to. Still scared, but not settling for crumbs.
This is where MB gets SERIOUSLY assimilated and applied. Turns hatred on OM as being to blame for affair.

4.- Gratitude.
The affair is ended, WW sends NC letter, exposure scares OM into darkness. THANK YOU GOD ! LA LA LA LA LA ! Still suspects FWS motivations for coming home, i.e comfort not love.

5.-"Advising others how to be wonderfully recovered like I am"

We have like SF 3 times a day, and a restored marriage is a decent possibility again and I am so PATHETICALLY grateful to not be in the deepest [email]cr@p[/email] imaginable I am hyper-happy. Yessiree, no recovery problems for me !This is it for ever and it only took us x months ! Secretly suspects FWS motivations for coming home, i.e comfort not love.

6.-"Ah, theres an elephant in the sitting room"

So day to day life has been OK for a while now. SF, even maybe some ILYs. Kids are happy. Life is ACTUALLY not happier than for years but it is so much better than during the dark times of the affair and withdrawal that it seems that way. But you start to notice the 'elephant' in the sitting room : the enormous baggage of the affair that the BS has been previously too 'fight or flight' or psychotically happy to address. Suspects FWS motivations for coming home, i.e comfort not love.

7.- "I am angry and I don't need you so whY am I here ?"

BS has operated in a loveless and hurt world for so long is now amost completely self sufficient. Is no longer even slightly desperate. Does not NEED FWW as whole life support mechnanism has HAD to regrow without her while she betrayed and sulked over the months. Feels indignation at both the insult of the affair AND the insult of FWW not contributing HARD to recovery. Feels like an ATM machine and bodyguard and hugely taken for granted. KNOWS FWS still loves OM.

8. - What about MY needs ?

BS has developed a sense of self worth independent of what others think. Has had to. Thinks he deserves MUCH more affection, admiration respect, gratitude. " I didn't put this amount of effort in just to be nagged at all the time, and never be praised. I deserve MORE than that!." The kids happiness at a stable family quells thoughts of rebellion. realises OM was just an amoral scumbag who made the most of an opportunity FWW offered him, 100% of the blame for the A is FWW. This hits hard.

9. - Resignation

The kids are happy, I am not unhappy, FWW is happy, this is just my lot in life. Better get on with it.

10.- make or break drive to get a M the BS deserves.

An effort from BS to challenge the peaceful but unsatisfying status quo in an attempt to get BS needs met.

Which step are you at?

Dear Not,

I just wrote my own "depressed" post. Maybe I can lend a hand.

You have to tell her how unhappy you are, and that unless she changes, you can't keep it going in the marriage. You need to tell her she is not pulling her weight and that you are, as she has said, NOT satisfied. And that she has a choice to make. Is she going to step up to the plate or not?

Can you possibly go through some appointments with the Harleys? It is so much less expensive than divorce. And there is a real advantage to have a 3d person call your spouse to account for doing her part, or not doing her part. As much as I am hurting, the counseling appointments calm me down and keep me going.

IC is in order for you right now. While I think your feelings are most likely very normal.... it will help to get a handle on things.
Remember that while you have made the decision to work on your M that does not mean that you cannot choose divorce at a later time. So, for right now, see if you can commit to a period of recovery and counseling and see where you are at 6 months from now.
As far as thinking that she is still unfaithful... you have a right to absloute truth. Ask her to submit to a polygraph to put your mind at ease regarding this issue. It also sounds like your wife is quite the manipulator... some of the things she does are major LB.

MEDC

Not,
If you committed to recovery, you committed to be HONEST and OPEN, regardless of what you W does. Do you feel like you are being honest WITH your wife? It just sounds a bit like sabotage when you withhold this from your W.

About the feeling that wife is wayward or hasn't ended her A or has started another--is NC letter sent, NC been in place, are you checking up on her? Are you spending time together, outside of TV and computer? Have you thrown your arms up because you are tired? Have you sat down and listed what EN's your wife DOES meet? Have you listed what needs of HERS that you MEET? Resentment builds subversively when our needs do not get met, on both sides.

Maybe focusing on getting help for YOURSELF first, is in order. I think Bob's post really brings things into perspective.

I would say be honest with the FWW.

Tell her how you feel.

Funny you post this because this weekend I was thinking a little about my M.

I like to do a check up everyonce in a while. LOL.

What I realized is there were blemishes in our M. Some mine and some hers. Warts if you will.

I think as a BS we examine our warts in steps 1-5 of bobs timeline. If we follow the advice of self improvement we address those warts.

Then we have a headstart as to self improvement.

Then steps 6-10 we start seeing the FWS warts. We of course think what is good for the goose. I want my FWS to change these things.

Then maybe the FWS thinks ok I like the changes I will stay with my BS. Maybe not such a focus on the changes the FWS needs to make.

The FWS IMVHO doesn't have the impetus for change that the BS did.

I am not where you are but I am not seeing the changes I asked for but they aren't really coming. So do I stay knowing that my FWW ended up with a better H then before even though she doesn't want to change.

Kinda perplexing to a logical person.

Mr. Pure,

Your 10 steps are ssssoooooo right on the mark!

""I am so PATHETICALLY grateful to not be in the deepest [email]cr@p[/email] imaginable I am hyper-happy. ""

Hyper-happy!..AWESOME <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

kirk

I think it will take a few posts from MB's recovered (not just IN recovery, BUT RECOVERED) to describe how long it took for BOTH spouses to get there.

Frog, I havent' been reading much this weekend and only posting light, to give myself a break. I'm sorry to hear about your current sitch. Have you taken on the , ever so difficult task of asking how your wife feels right now about your M recovery, and how she feels about her recovery? Have you expressed that something you need to feel safe is not being addressed? (This from someone on the outside, NOT IN RECOVERY, LOOKING IN, KNOWING HOW DIFFICULT THESE CONVERSATIONS ARE)

IANTS,

“My W strayed late 06'. Long story short, I was able to end her affair, I exposed, I plan A'd. I won my wife back. I don't know if I want it any more. I regret the day I won her back. If I had a time machine, I would go back, and when she said "I want a divorce." I should have just said "Ok, let's remain friends during this.”

I have been where you are. I finally broke up a VLTA with previous false recoveries using MB methods. All else had failed, including years of ordinary MC and IC. Then MB worked on the affair just as you describe. And like you I often think, dang, it worked too damn well.

I could have written this post of yours several times. Maybe I did. Can’t remember, now.

So, at about a year, which you are not even there yet, these feelings are pretty common. I get them every six months or so at three years out. It’s related, IMO, to the recurring anger that goes on for years and is reset again and again with unexpected triggers.


“I'm trying to sabotage our marriage. I'm opening doors for her to reconnect with OP. I'm giving to her and condoning her vices that caused our rift in the first place. I'm trying to turn back time and recreate the affair environment. I don't have the courage to tell her I want out. I don't have the courage to tell her she makes me the most miserable person in the world. I do not feel any intimacy with her at all. I feel like she is still wayward anyway. I feel like I'm being used. I feel like I am being held in the "Position" of husband so she gets her Financial and Domestic needs met, but never accepting the SF or conversation. We never talk about us. She never shares her true feelings with me. Ever. I feel like I'm not the same person I was before she strayed. I feel like a totally different man. I have already grieved her death and would feel little/no sadness if we split.”

This is Conflict Avoidance (CA), you know. Full-blown. Did it have a place in your M before?

The bar is raised now. That’s OK. That’s good. But you have to communicate this if you are going to expect any reciprocal actions. Maybe you communicate in writing. Maybe only via email for a while, to avoid LBs. But communicate. If you no longer care, what have you to lose?


“I cannot see myself with my wife in old age. After doing much research, I believe my wife has BPD. She's very controlling, very manipulating. For the last 10 years - every time I try to share a disappointment or concern with her .. I always walk away feeling guilty, like I did something wrong. Her common response to my concerns are "I never do anything good enough" or "Everything I do for you isn't good enough is it!?" But I've thought long and hard about these kind of statements. In reality .. she does NOTHING to BE good enough. I'm in no way a perfectionist. I'm not a class "A" personality .. I don't demand much and I'm very easy going. My wife became irritated and angry that I expressed my desire to "TALK" to her, to reconnect with her. I would like to love her. I would like to share with her, but she retorted with "You never do what I want to do!" What did she want to do? She wanted to watch TV or play computer games. She tells me she loves me every day.”

Sheesh, what if you simply clean this paragraph up a bit to make it easier to read and hand it to her.? Again, what have you to lose?

Can you and (F?)WW talk to the MB counseling center? You will get some good practical advice, way more helpful than you get from these forums alone.


“I've changed my alias. I don't want people to know my real MB identity.

Why? This is CA too, you know. So what if I knew who you once were on MB. I still do not know who you really are. No one does.

It seems you have a need to appear the good guy. If not a martyr, at least a white hat. A living saint may be able to do what you are doing and not build resentment, but you and I are not living saints. We are ordinary Joes married to adulteresses. We just have to figure out how to deal.

Tell the truth to those who need it, even if they do not know they need it. Even if they do not want the truth. It is the ethical thing to do.

You just have to know what your truth is, first.

And you have to understand your truth is relative.

After that, communicate. You may be surprised at the results.

According to you, you have little to lose.


With prayers,

ed: One of the best tidbits of advice I received here a year or so ago was from JL. He reminded me I agreed to attempt recovery. I cannot predict the future and I did not agree I would recover. I can decide years out that I cannot make it. I will discover my unconquerable limitations over time. A lot of time. I can end my marriage, ethically, at any time now. I am no longer stuck. This unlimited option of mine is a consequence of her adultery, period. I just have to be honest and open about it.

SL,

Don't want to TJ here. But I was just thinking. Along the same road here and can understand his thinking.

I don't think it is ground breaking on my part. To be honest we have spoken about these things and I was just thinking. Not completely on the same note as this.

Bob, first - let me state that I've always valued your advice. I think I'm in stage 11. Stage eleven .. feels like "What's the point..defeated..in this marriage..all attempts at communication about our relationship are punished.."

Aphelion,
I am a conflict avoider by nature. That was a big problem pre-A. My wife..always attempting to express her disat in our marriage..I blew it off as "No big deal..she's overreacting.." and it bought me an unfaithful wife.

I know that's a problem for me. But I've changed..I tried to express myself to her ..in a non-threatening way..sat her down .. tried to tell her how I feel..tried to tell her what I need..and she' becomes defensive, blaming, and accusatory..I ALWAYS walk away..feeling that I've wronged her in some way .. feeling that It is perhaps me..that has caused the problem to begin with..but it's NOT

I'm essentially punished for trying to communicate..always..it's always been that way..Ever since I've known her..for 10 years..I think I've heard her apologize 10 times..for something that she's done..she never takes responsibility for any of her actions .. or inactions for that matter ..

She spanks our child .. in anger..and yells at her when she misbehaves..sometimes violent outbursts..My daughter had a bruise on her arm one day...and she says to me on the phone..on the way home from work..before I saw it .. "I think DD got a bruise on her arm at the theme park from picking her up so much.." then I come home and see the bruise on the arm..and I initially believed it..few weeks later..my DD is playing outside..and she's getting into the plants ..and Wife is outside too..wife yells her and tells her to "Get out of there!"..DD looks around mischievously at mommy..mommy becomes angrier and rushes towards DD with fist balled up and teeth gritted? My DD puts her hand in front of her face ..almost like a protective measure..? I'm not so sure about the bruise now..I was spanked as a child..never in anger..but..I don't believe in retrospect that it was productive to my development..only humiliating and painful..so I don't believe in spanking .. I don't think it's beneficial..some may use it, but I find it unnecessary..

We discussed this on the phone one day .. and she says "You know it's your fault she behaves this way." What??!?!? I asked her "Are you serious?" She was serious. I'm always very loving and patient with our daughter..I've never spanked her in anger..I've yelled at her a few times ..perhaps across the room to "Stop that please.." or "Daddy told you no!" but never like she does..now we have a child that misbehaves and it's my fault?

The real reason I posted with a different name..is sometimes my wife reads here..to see what I'm doing. She's always hated the fact that I found this place..and used to ridicule me during her affair about coming here..she knows what my other alias is..she never posts here but is always reading my posts..when she was having an affair she would say "Are you going to run to your little support group?"..

I think I either "Deal" or Walk .. Thank you everyone for your kind words and excellent advice.

When one may be dealing with a co-parent who may be inappropriately hitting a small child ... it is never "deal or walk"

what are you going to do .... leave that little girl alone with a pissed off woman?

I don't think so .......

Pep

Iam wrote:
====================================
...mommy becomes angrier and rushes towards DD with fist balled up and teeth gritted? My DD puts her hand in front of her face ..almost like a protective measure..?
====================================

"Wife, I have made you an appointment for therapy to deal with you anger issues because of the way you have threatened daughter. If you miss the appointment, I have already filed a statement with my attorney regarding your behavior that will be delivered to child protective services"

That is the statement you make as you load the kids up to temporarily move to your parents or either pack your wife's stuff up for an extended period somewhere else. Either way, you remove her from the kids.

At this point, your marriage succeeding or failing isn't the issue. Your children ARE. Deal with that first. Then deal with your wife after you have her undivided attention.

No offense, IAM, but you need to buck up, and do it right now.

God bless,
Gimble

There can come a time for those of us who are BSs who think -- why did we even bother.

I once heard Harley describe BPD as "selfish". Anyone who has an affair is being selfish at the time they have the affair. Your wife's anger towards your child could be real -- or a perception of yours to justify divorce. Remind yourself that you need no further justification than an affair.

PROTECT YOUR CHILD AT ALL COSTS. YOUR WIFE IS A CHILD ABUSER AND YOU NEED TO STEP UP NOW TO PROTECT YOUR CHILD. THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU WILL EVER DO.
GROW SOME BALLS AND DO THIS RIGHT NOW.... OR FIND SOMEONE THAT CAN HANDLE THE JOB.
Frankly, you should not have to come to a web site to discuss this stuff. Your first job is a parent is to protect your child...from all dangers.
Personally, it sounds like your wife is quite a loser and you should file a police report regarding these incidents. Find a good lawyer and get your ducks in line... your wife has nothing but supervised visitation until she gets extensive help and YOU hear directly from a therapist that she is no longer a danger to your child.

MEDC

“She spanks our child…in anger, and yells at her when she misbehaves…sometimes violent outbursts.”

This is not the same thing at all as a failure to step up to recovery. The causes of her actions are probably rooted in the same causes as the entitlement, selfishness and anger she uses to justify her affair. But that doess not matter now.

Violent outbursts that harm a child are different.

You do not plan A or Plan B the harming your daughter. Not even a little but.

I think it is time you talked to an attorney and get specific advice as to what and how to document her parenting. You want sole custody with supervised visits. You need usable legal evidence. You need to get to the point where you can legally keep her away from your daughter.


“…when she was having an affair she would say "Are you going to run to your little support group?”

My FWW still says this kind of stuff on occasion. What does your’s say now?

With prayers,

BTW, I don't think any of this means your heart is wayward.

It means your love bank is in receivership.

It means your heart and your mind are almost in sync and you are almost done.

With prayers,

Imnotthesame - None of us are "the same." That's the "point." CHANGE does not mean "maintain the status quo."

Since your reference to God is "offhand," all I'm going to ask you is how important is your faith in God to you?

Your feelings? Yes, they are real, and yes they are important. BUT they do not have to be "controlling."

Do you think that perhaps Jesus has had "similar" thoughts to what you are thinking? Perhaps he asked the Father for "another way" because HIS bride was so totally unworthy of His love? Perhaps he asked the Father THREE times for "another way" because we "just didn't get what he was doing for us?"

"Nevertheless, not my will but yours be done."


I have to agree that your actions and thoughts are classic "conflict avoidance." You even justify that CA by telling us how you have "calmly talked" with your wife about your needs.....and oh, by the way, she is also an abusive parent to our daughter....

You have what appears to be a classic misunderstanding of what the word "meekness" means, at least insofaras the biblical use of the word.

So the final question at this time would be, do you want to rely on ONLY MB "techniques" or are you going to allow God to help out in your marriage and in your own life? In simpler terms, who IS "in control" of your life?

IANTS

I empathise greatly with you. Feel free to email me if you want to compare notes. My addy is in my profile.

It might help us both.

MK,


Grow some balls? That's an easy thing to say, when your there..and I'm here. I don't have proof. I don't have anything. And do you understand BPD?? Someone mentioned selfishness..yes, that's it .. magnified and to the tenth power .. you don't know my wife..so before you tell me to "grow some balls" .. if I DO ANYTHING without any kind of evidence..she will destroy me..it's the vindictiveness..She will turn around and blame me! And then some..then pile on a bunch of other imaginary sh_t that I didn't do .. by the time it's all said and done..I'll be arrested..my kid will be under protective services..and She'll be crying on her family's shoulder talking about what a horrible bast*rd I was..and how she's such a victim. ..but I'll definitely be "making a case."