What's your point? The Lord steers a moving ship. I'm going to make a move. I need advice..Yes my emotions are wrecked..all over the place..I'm burning with "entitlement" I'm a conflict avoider...but I'm not trying to avoid THIS conflict..with this woman .. there IS NO CONFLICT RESOLUTION None! You don't fight a battle you can't win!. The best way to come to a common ground with my FWW is to GIVE UP, SHUT UP, apologize for something you didn't do, and walk away..because any thing less..you get "You're the one in the wrong! - not me!"

..And I didn't mention the word "meekness.." I'm not saying I'm meek.... I'm defeated..I'm going to take action .. but I wanted some advice in the direction I should go..I guess I have my answer..

Make my case..get a lawyer..and bust out with guns blazing..

IANTS,

Those are just words. They don't actually have any meaning. Just words that don't help you at all. They make no sense, really. It's not actionable advice. Ignore.

But I do think you should plan ahead. Hope for the best, plan for the worst, as they say.

And by that I mean, see a lawyer so you understand your options.

It is apparent from your posts your Love Bank balance is in the red. You are at or near the bottom and should start thinking ahead regarding alternative scenarios. Not come out with guns blazing. Just know your options.

IMO she is not going to change unless she gets medical help. If she will not get professional help, have some alternative plans for you and your children.

That's all you can do until you are ready. You seem like a smart guy. You will know what you need to do when the time finally comes. It will be the simplest (not necessarily the easiest) option.

with prayers,

Iamnotthesame - You are obviously hurting. Since I don't know who you are (since you've changed your name and I'm not going to go and try to find out the "other you"), I am done offering anything for now.

You are combative and not in the "mood" to actually discuss things, so I'll wait until such time as you really do want a calm discussion.

For the record, I do understand BPD, and I also understand you are married to your wife. Did I leave anything out? Is she on medication or not?

If you have made a decision to get a lawyer and file for divorce, you really don't need our advice, other than to tell you to do what the attorney tells you to do. Divorce Lawyers are in the business of getting people divorced, not is attempting to save marriages. I know, my cousin is a Divorce Attorney.

God bless and good luck with whatever you choose.

Also, remember, Dr H says spouses with substance addiction or mental illnesses are not receptive to MB methods. He always says the affected spouse must fix those problems first, then and only then both spouses can come back for marriage building.

with prayers,

IANTS

The coalition forces invaded Iraq with high hopes. Nobody, even the enemy denies our troops fought bravely. A stern test, but the battle was won: the objective in the hearts of our troops was hot, fresh, obvious : FIGHT ! WIN !

After a time, we began to prevail : the shooting slowed and nearly stopped. The enemy troops surrendered. The smoke started to clear. As the passion for the fight slowly dwindled in the veins of our troops they looked around saw what they had been fighting FOR: a blasted landscape riven with imperfections, distrust, age-old tribal grievances. Squabbling

Policing the peace has GOT to be a harder job for our troops than fighting the war in the hot flush of combat ever was. Problems that cannot be subdued by force, but who require negotiation. Liberated peoples who did not consider them liberators, but occupiers. People who exploited their new found freedom from opression only to oppress others within their own nation and kill innocents in the name of their flavour of their religion or creed.

Our troops, every BIT as brave and able as they were in active combat, must look at what they risked their lives for and yearn to leave this nation of bloodthirsty uncooperative barbarians to their own evil devices.

But they stay and contribute against instinct towards advancing diplomatic efforts to build a peace for the MAJORITY of peace loving people whose voice is quieter than the mortars and suicide bombs of the nutjobs.

IANTS I think that you may be like me - more a warrior than a diplomat. I do not compares myself to the many services personnel on these boards, of course, and I never had the privilege of seeing armed forces service , but in this MARRIAGEBUILDING arena I fought a WAR against my wifes affair and OM using all the weapons at my disposal.

Building the peace has been a far clumsier enterprise for me. And sometimes when I look at what I fought FOR, I also see a blasted blackened landscape, battle scarred and riven with disagreements.

I am almost disappnted to find that many of the issues that previously affected my marriage pre-affair have now returned.

I somehow thought that in gratitude for my fighting for her, Squid might somehow become an ideal woman dedicating every moment of her life to being the W I deserve. HAH ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

There HAVE been many improvements, but she is still the woman I was married to for all those years before her affair. It was nieve of me to expect a reinvention of self from her. She clearly likes many parts of her that I do not. I am sure vice-versa is also true about myself.


So what am I saying? Well you can recognise how much harder it is for a warrior to build peace than it is to fight a war and apply yourself to that task with renewed vigour, OR you can decide you don't WANT peace, you do not WANT to honour your commitments and divorce.

Either way make sure you aren't just having a resentful revenge fantasy by believng you want to divorce her.

As I said mail me if you want speak more openly.

all blessings.

YOu can come up with a lot of reasons.... excuses... for not doing the tough thigs here... but..
blah, b;ah, blah....
it all comes down to protecting your children at all costs. I have full custody of my son... I am a dad. His mom only gets limited visitation. I speak to you as a dad, a former abuse victim and an ex cop... protect your child... no matter what.

My H has BPD. It is a terrible illness to deal with if untreated. He is just NOW starting to stabilize (within the last month) after being diagnosed almost a year ago with bipolar. He is on 3 different meds. I am somewhat in the same boat as you IANTS, even though he is stabilized I am emotionally drained and there are MANY times I wish I would have left as soon as H found out about my EA 2 years ago. I care about him, but am still M out of guilt. My LB is completely bankrupt. He is trying, does want to try and really is quite a bit different on meds, but I am having a very hard time getting over the past.

Does your wife believe that she may have BPD? Is there any way she would go to someone for an evaluation (psychiatrist)? There are many bpd "tests" you can take free online to determine if it may indeed be BPD. I would suggest trying that if she would. Obviously something has to be done and your needs have to be somewhat met in the M. Thank you for posting, this post has useful info for me too. Hang in there.

From Penalty Kill

Does your wife have BPD? Has she been diagnosed by anyone but you? It's not a diagnosis to toss around lightly based upon internet "research".

Iamnot, I think that before you visit a lawyer, you should insist on family therapy for six months. This scene concerns me on several levels:


You describe the scene in great detail. Where were you? When your wife yelled at your daughter to get out of the plants, what was your response? Did you just sit and observe?

Furthermore, your daughter is not acting like an abused child, from what you describe. She is acting like she is seeking attention. And perhaps the attention she seeks is yours, not just her mother's.

One of the things that I taught my H was that parenting has to be a united front. Parents must be in agreement on discipline. It is not good for a child to feel that one parent is a pushover while the other parent is a harda$$.

While other posters have taken the viewpoint that your wife is out of line with her yelling and possible hitting, I am going to ask you what you do in the way of discipline? Do you let your wife be the bad guy so that you can be the good-guy? Granted, you were victimized by your wife's affair, but I'm hearing a lot of victim speak in your words about your relationship. On the one hand, you say that,


And then you say,


Which is it? Never or always? Both words are poison to good communication.

I don't mean to be callous, and I'm certainly not condoning child abuse (I don't think that I ever spanked my daughter, but my son definitely got yelled at for some bonehead maneuvers in his time.), but there seems to be some things in your situation that a good family therapist could work with in order to make you a better parenting team. Before you make any rash moves that could make you a part-time father I would explore that option.

IANTS,

I would leave if I were you.

You want to leave and therefore you won't work on your M.

What you are saying about your FWW may be true.

I know where you are coming from. My FWW does things I don't like over time you go from not like, to hate, to can't stand to be around it. Right?

What is sounds like to me is you are at a crossroads, you have asked her to change and she doesn't seem inclined to do so.

Sounds like the warts were exposed after her A. You saw some EN's you wanted filled. You saw Love Busters you didn't like. She hasn't changed.

Have you expressed clearly to her, in no uncertain terms you are done if this continues?

If yes you can leave, if no you can leave too.

It is up to you. I would say to you if you have made up your mind your M is over. IT IS.

This is not a needs issue. BPD is a serious medical condition.

Consult an attorney right now. Document what the attorney tells you to document, and then in short order leave and file for divorce.

You are not in an affair or seeing someone.
Your wife did cheat on you.
Your wife is not a good mother to your child.

Much as there are often folks here who wish it were otherwise, marriage is legally at-will in all 50 states. No one can force you to stay married to this person except you and it sounds like you are doing yourself and your child a disservice by staying in your marriage.

The only other scenario I can possibly think might work is: Consult an attorney, document what the attorney tells you to document, leave and then give your wife an ultimatum to get medicated or you are done. BPD can be treated with medication.

Good luck to you.

I get a kick out of this; we, as BS's, are to take all of the "in your face" information of our WS's, then to process all of the subliminal information and inferences without making a judgement? Without seeing it as such severe offense? Without seeing it as right verses wrong? My God, I don't want to be with someone like this, right?

I remain offended by the arrogance of it all. Lie, cheat, steal, deceive, defile, diminish, destroy and THEN, you are expected (maybe hopefully) to rise above all of the selfishness and YOU are to be selfless, "bigger than", God like, virtuous, forgiving, refrain from judgement, work for the greater good, be a pillar, to be the most reverant, the most..........

Add your own acronyms. They are indeed all the same. It all adds up to the same thing; Just as you've always done, set yourself aside, but, but, this time do it among the most aggregious offenses?

You have guilt for how you feel, right? My lord let yourself have it! You are f'n angry and you're NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANY MORE! It is ok. You do indeed have right and good on your side. Heck, you have every right to your anger, your disgust, your distain. It's ugly, it's dirty, it's pathetic and it's ok that you see her as dirty and as ugly! It is alright and it is indeed justified.

You are now at the precipice. You are at the crossroad. What will you do now? You have two choices; fight or flee!

So, with all your pain, what is it that you want? You have every right to take a stand and you will indeed respect yourself for walking away. You will preserve your dignity, or, will you? Will this take your pain from you? It will not and you know it. So, you straddle, you ride the fence of commitment. You are so unresolved that you, for all of your self respect and self assurance, cannot see yourself clear of such abominable lack of loyalty. And, you ask, for what?

So, you are becoming apathetic. You don't even realize your defenses have taken over. Your phyche has taken over to protect you. You feel the walls as they erect yet you ask; "Why do I even have to deal with this?"

As you move farther into the process, your indignance, your protectionism, your hurt, exasserbates. You hear every song that speaks of infidelity. Nine Crimes is like a knife to your heart and you are even more fortified by your anger, your dispair.

Where does it end? Does it ever end? How will it end? Can it end? My rage is so deep. The feelings of violation cannot even be expressed. I just want to run away or to hide. Dear God please take me from this pain, this life.

So it is, you are right and you are righteous, but, will this take you to a new beginning? My dispair is so unforgiveably deep. How do I move forward? How do I overcome?

In the end you'll begin to ask one question; What and who is this about? Is this about me? What have I built this into? Am I really so GD right?

I have no answers for you. I suffer from the same discussion. I too am angry that this discussion must even rage deep within me. My god, I've done nothing to deserve this? But, at what point do you choose to own it? At what point do you decide that the problem is not hers? Is it mine?

Ask yourself. Is this really about her, or, is it really about me?

Please don't take this wrong. I live the pain that you do but, how does this serve us? Where will you go? Will you never have to compromise again? Can you ever really, really, trust again?

I wish for you wisdom my friend as I wish it for myself!

IANTS...You refer to your wife as having "BPD"...Do you mean Bipolar Disorder or Borderline Personality Disorder? Big Difference. I would also ask, as PK did, how do you know? Where did this diagnosis come from? My father has Bipolar Disorder, so if that is what you are talking about, I do have a HUGE understanding where that is concerned, but the diagnosis MUST come from a professional...

I'd like to see you answer the questions posed by Penalty Kill, IMO, that was an EXCELLENT and very insightful post...

Mrs. W

You may want to consider installing a nanny cam in your home, especially if your gut is telling you one thing, but you need concrete proof to move ahead.

If I were you ...and needed to get through this...I would need a plan.....

plans ground you
give you goals, a focus, and can come with a time frame to assess re-evaluate and cange tatics....

If I were my plan would like something like this...

FIRST level....

I would announce to my spouse that I am going to go to individual counseling......

then I would find an individual counselor to give me the steps and tools needed to engage in my own behavior modification plan ...which gives me concrete responses to her acts and words...

these type of things include....

leaving the conversation each and every time it becomes a name calling or blame game...which means you hang up..leave the room...leave the residence...whatever it takes....

she will not like this and make no mistake she will escalate at first...horribly....but if you are strong and remain calm and clear and consistant each and every time she will eventually realize that if she wants to talk to you at all she will have to be nice.....
PERIOD>....

this is hard to do which is why you need a counselor to assist and coach you.....

you must learn to speak your boundaries clearly and accurately....

I will not discuss this until you quit yelling
I will not discuss this until you stop calling me names
I will not discuss this until you stop being mean.....

you will need mantras...like water dripping on a stone...

she says...
I am afraid you will find another woman have an affair.blah blah blah...

you must learn key phrases that are given without emotion but that are dead on truth...

she says ..
I am afraid you will have an affair...
you answer back...
I am afraid you will continue to be mean to me...

deliver it calmly without emotion and walk away...

keep her stewing in her own actions....

and do not rise to her bait...the bait will get worse before it gets better..

so again you will need support counsel and guidance...

other part of this...is that you remove the children with you when she is escalative like this in front of them...
off to another room
engage them in an activity
take them out to the park..
whatever it takes...
again you become the mother bear in action not words....

the other level I would do if I were you is that I would seek legal advice on how you move towards getting full custody of the children....

how you document her actions and behaviors...
how you make a plan so that if you need to leave your ducks are lined up...

I firmly believe that BS even years in recovery have earned the right to keep in their back pocket a plan that keeps them focused on never ever having to return to that place of misery of the FWS active WS actions...

that if it comes again they hold EVERY right to walk away...
God given and blessed in my opinion

seeing a lawyer and creating your back pocket plan will empower you to even perhaps stay and work harder on the issues at hand.....
knowing you have the route out if needed...

it is very freeing to be empowered.....

YOU must stop all TRUE behaviors that can be used as a weapon against you and never ever powerstruggle the made up ones......

so if you use names
if you yell
stop...them all....

also gather close your family and friends for support..through your counselor learn to build your support group not to villify your wife....for you must seek and pray for great humility and humbleness to face this head on......

when first married I had the potential to be a banshee if I wanted...
the problem was my husband was never ever a good audience...

he accepted that behavior for a few mere seconds...then that was it...

ruined all my plans and fun of attempting to be irrational...
but he was a social worker then...and had passive aggressive and manipulative clients...much better at than I had tried and failed with him...so I never did stand a chance...

I would also buy and read YOURSELF in front of your wife...the proper care and feeding of husband
and the proper care and feeding of marriage by
Dr L schesslinger....(?SP)
and not say a word...

I would also hug my wife
smile at her
and be very very calm AND cheery around her..
whistle
hum
lighten the tone in the home....

if you choose to do this...once established in counseling and have your ducks of the law lined up...

I believe you have the right to pick a time frame.....
never ever telling her what it is...

and one day...take the kids and go...

which isn't the end either....
but your situation may warrant such drastic measure.....

ARK

I don't understand all of this placating. I guess we've all come to terms with being placed second best and feeling grateful for the crumbs that we're afforded.

You need to do only one thing; give her a divorce document to sign. Period!

If she values her relationship with you she'll change immediately. If she does not value your relationship she'll pitch a fit, make an argument, try to turn it around and do whatever is necessary to prolong the game. None of which should be considered acceptable.

Pull up your F'n pants and decide right now that this relationship shall no longer be one sided. You're either in or your out. Even if she does make immediate changes DO NOT stop proceedings. Depending on your state, divorce proceedings take months to years to finalize. You have plenty of time to "reconsider".

The point is you have a choice to accept this cake eating or you can stop it in it's track with one fell swoop. Even then you should be leary about moving forward. Betrayal is such a huge violation of a human's oath to commitment you should consider this a permanent character flaw. Re-evaluation of who it is that you are actually involved with should be your focus. Don't question yourself. Human dignity is worth every bit of the fight, so, fight! You shall carry not one ounce of blame for her horrid behavior and you'll make clear that, from this day forward, your relationship shall be grounded in virtuous expectation. If she can't accept that then at least you'll now know who it is that you're actually dealing with.

Gees, quit screwing around and make sure your message is loud and clear. If she can't deal with it you surely have no use for this kind of person in your life.

For God's sake, stand up for what is right and just. Let her decide if she is capable of being that kind of person!

If she's not..........

From Penalty Kill

Thanks Mrs. Dubs. I knew that there was someone on the forum who had first-hand experience w/BPD - just couldn't think of who it was. Glad you spoke up.

PK

My story

This is me, I can link to my original story I think without it being searchable by user name.

No diagnosis of BPD by a doctor .. that's Borderline Personality Disorder..not Bi-Polar..But she's been diagnosed for the last 6 years with "Clinical Depression.." .. she was taking Lexipro .. now Welbutrin..

I was going to pick up my daughter from school yesterday .. I called my wife from my Cell and said "Hey, where are you?" She says "I'm at the grocery store.." at the same time.... I'm driving by her office..and there's her car..at her office..with another male co-workers truck .. there the only two cars in the parking lot..and she's been kind of talking about this guy lately .. with that certain uncomfortable air of familiarity .. like using "We.." or mentioning different things to me..for me to try ..that he does .. like "Have you ever thought about getting a truck?" or "Have you ever wanted to play xbox 360?" or "Why don't you go to tech school like <male Co-workers name here> did?" or saying things that just get under my skin like "I'm kinda irritated..I wanted to talk to MALE_NAME before I left work..like I normally do..and the other girls in the office wouldn't leave me alone..it kinda irritated me.."

I think I like the back-pocket plan .. I'll call it an "escape" plan .. but I'm going to exit. I've made up my mind .. I just can't do it anymore. I wouldn't be suprised if she's slept with others I don't know about. If she were not mentally unbalanced .. I'd be more optimistic. But, disrespectfully, this b*tch is nuts .. and I married the wrong women.

This will be my last MB post. I've made up my mind. Goodbye MB. Thank you everyone .. LA..pep..Bob .. good luck to Jim with his wife..Lousygolfer..It was a good run .. I've learned alot about myself..and about relating to other people by visiting this site..Harley definately knows his stuff..if I can leave any advice it would be this..

*KNOW* the person you're going to marry .. before you marry. That is all.

i n s h o c k m a n.

OK.

You want custody of your children though. Right?

You need to get an attorney's advice, document and plan before acting. That's all.

The plan is no longer in your back pocket. It's in your hand.

Don't give away your plan.

Good luck.

with prayers,

I support your decision ... but get custody!

prayers

Pep

PS:

A HOW TO DIVORCE A BPD <~~~ see if your library can get this one for you